British pull their own teeth out with pliers because of dentist shortage

[NotGivingUp]

I read this in this morning's paper and I'm wondering how true it is. Seemed to me like scare tactics so that people would not want national health care. Anybody know about this?

[paparush]

1. Wait till they need a vasectomy!!

[WestSeattle2]

70. Now I don't care who you are, that right there is funny!....n/t

[paparush]

88. :-)

having had my vasectomy 4 yrs ago...I can only imagine the implications of 'do-it-yourself'.

[NotGivingUp]

90. Pretty scary!

[babylonsister]

2. Where did you read that/do you have a link? Thanks. nt

[NotGivingUp]

6. Big headline in St. Pete Times. I'll post link.

[katinmn]

11. Ok. When??

[Freddie Stubbs]

24. the NY Times has a similar (or the same) story

In a Dentist Shortage, British (Ouch) Do It Themselves

By SARAH LYALL

ROCHDALE, England, May 2 — "I snapped it out myself," said William Kelly, 43, describing his most recent dental procedure, the autoextraction of one of his upper teeth.

Now it is a jagged black stump, and the pain gnawing at Mr. Kelly's mouth has transferred itself to a different tooth, mottled and rickety, on the other side of his mouth. "I'm in the middle of pulling that one out, too," he said.

It is easy to be mean about British teeth. Mike Myers's mouth is a joke in itself in the "Austin Powers" movies. In a "Simpsons" episode, dentalphobic children are shown "The Big Book of British Smiles," cautionary photographs of hideously snaggletoothed Britons. In Mexico, protruding, discolored and generally unfortunate teeth are known as "dientes de ingles."

But the problem is serious. Mr. Kelly's predicament is not just a result of cigarettes and possibly indifferent oral hygiene; he is careful to brush once a day, he said. Instead, it is due in large part to the deficiencies in Britain's state-financed dental service, which, stretched beyond its limit, no longer serves everyone and no longer even pretends to try.

more: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

[katinmn]

3. Link? This is astounding if true.

[NotGivingUp]

22. Sorry...got a phone call...here's link in case you didn't see it

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

[katinmn]

45. Thanks.

[NJ_Lib]

4. Dentists have hard time getting teeth out, can you imagine...

... at home with pliers? I shudder to think....

[MH1]

5. Which paper?

Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

[DS1]

7. I know a girl in New York State who did that, but she ended up crushing

her tooth first from gripping it too hard.

Anyway, is this article from the 1930s?

I don't believe it.

edit: Wait, there is no article.

[Warpy]

8. They have dentists in Britain

just like we do here. The difference is that the national health service pays the bill.

I can't imagine anyone doing this in the UK, not unless they were dentist phobic to the extreme or were stuck with an abscess and told to take antibiotics for a few days to make the extraction safer.

Fe fi fo fum, I smell xenophobic bullshit. You know, the Brits have rotten teeth, the French don't bathe, the Germans are all closet goose steppers, blah blah blah.

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. Original story in New York Times, 2nd May

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070


I wondered about posting it here, but thought it would just get the usual 'British teeth' jokes.

Dentistry is fairly screwed up in Britain at the moment - while everyone does have theoretical access to NHS dentistry (for which you pay a fixed, low price), in practice it can be impossible to find a dentist who accepts NHS patients in your area. As an example, a dentist from, I think, Sweden, came to my area to set up a practice, and was going to accept some NHS patients - maybe half of her total. She was going to convert a house to use as a surgery, so she needed planning permission from the local council. She explained her plans at a meeting, they gave her permission - and the moment the meeting ended, she was swamped with people, including councillors, wanting to get on to her list. By the time I read this in the local paper the next week, her list was full, before she'd actually started treating anyone.

Not many people are resorting to pulling their own teeth, but the figures of only 49% of adults being registered with a public practice (ie being regular visitors) is quite believable. Use of private practice will be either the rich, or those who wait until they have a problem they can't put off.

[NotGivingUp]

40. i think you're right......where's a clothespin?!

[skiddlybop]

9. Did they also find the CATS in the microwave?

This is obviously right-wing pushback against the DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE published 10 days ago that British are MORE HEALTHY than Americans because universal health care encourages them to get all the PREVENTATIVE and DIAGNOSTIC care they need.

Don't let people call you a troll by posting drivel like this and not linking. Post the link and we can all help debunk bullshit stories like this.

[tenshi816]

64. It's not bullshit,

and this isn't the first instance of it either. It's not a common occurrence in the UK, but it does happen. Here's an example from 2004, including a photo of the idiot who did it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3696758.stm

[seabeyond]

10. and have you seen all the toothless and bad teeth in the u.s.

i have dentists that laugh at me. literally laugh at me. when i ask them what a good dental plan would be that i can PAY for. there arent any. all work done on most people are dollars out of pocket unless you are lucky enough to be on one of the parge group plans thru company that are becoming harder and harder to find. you think maybe people that dont have dollar in pocket to pay out to dentist, as they struggle to fill tanks and put food on table arent doing the same in the u.s.

i have never needed dentist in past, just getting to age where i am needing them adn if you dont think we dont have a crisis right here in the u.s. to be outraged about, you are using dentists either

[Coexist]

12. BBC link to similar article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3109915.stm

I get the St. Pete Times - it is on the front page of the Nation and World section - but I can't find it on their site yet.

quotes from the article:

"Prevention and having nice white shiny teeth is a huge priority for us (U.S. citizens) from the moment we're born," she said. "That doesn't seem to be the culture here. You've got a lot of tea drinkers; you've got a lot of staining. In the U.S., we go through a spool of dental floss every six weeks, on average. Here it's a year and a half."
Back in Rochdale clinic, Anis laughed hollowly when the word came up. "Floss?" he said. "That's a good one."

[NotGivingUp]

20. I couldn't either...i didn't look very long...googled and same article

came up in a lot of different places.

Yeah....they're really pushing it...huge picture of guy with lots of missing teeth. Bullshit propaganda.

[LaurenG]

13. I couldn't find a link to the St. Petes paper

I did find this though. :shrug:
http://flapsblog.com/?cat=23

[Taxloss]

14. OK - the story may be true, but the situation is complicated.

Britain has the National Health Service. However, dentistry is only partially covered by the NHS. You can get your teeth fixed on the NHS if you can find an NHS dentist. There are many, but they are horribly over-subscribed and have huge or closed waiting lists. And there are big gaps in coverage - whole towns without NHS dentists. We also have many private dentists, where you have to pay. So it's not that there is no dental coverage.

This system is entirely separate to the main NHS, which still works very well indeed - people aren't forced to perform home appendectomies.

So why the shortage of dentists? Central government incompetence. The way NHS dentists are funded is a mess, and they're given a really raw deal, so most private dentists won't take NHS patients. (I should clarify that all dentists are technically "private" - "NHS dentists" are private dentists who accept patient for free because they will be reimbursed by the NHS. I told you this was a mess.)

So at the moment, the NHS provides free dental care only for a lucky few. The government needs to either fund the system more fairly, or come up with some form of extra insurance, or abandon it altogether. The present system is a joke, and the right-wing press loves stories like "pensioner pulls own teeth" because it discredits the government and the NHS. They ignore the fact that moving dental care into the semi-private mess it is now was a Conservative idea to cut costs and make everything "more efficient".

That's as brief as I can put it. Ask me anything.

[Bridget Burke]

34. Sounds as though Dental Care in the NHS is being neglected on purpose.

Underfund a program & then claim that "it's broken." So let's abandon it & privatize!

Bush & his pals are good at the technique. Of course, they can also blame overstressed schools and increasingly expensive healthcare on "the illegals."

[Taxloss]

44. It's a bit like that.

Fortunately, the British people expect free dental care, so scrapping the system wouldn't be very popular. Result: stasis.

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. Blair: "easy access to an NHS dentist by 2001"

Ho bloody ho.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has promised that everybody will have easy access to an NHS dentist within the next two years.
...
Patients will be able to get advice on how to contact an NHS dentist through the 24-hour telephone advice line, NHS Direct, and through a further 30 "phone and go" dental schemes to be set up by the government.

Callers to NHS Direct will be directed to a NHS dentist who is within convenient travelling distance, or - out of hours - to an local emergency dental service.

The "phone and go" schemes will see NHS dentists working in easily accessible locations such as the new primary care walk-in centres, allowing people easy access to high quality care.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/459949.stm

Yeah, that worked.

[Taxloss]

50. One of the biggest failures of this government, IMHO.

PS, guess what's being used to provide these new primary care sites? PFI!

[tenshi816]

61. Ha! It's getting worse and worse.

It was bad enough when fewer and fewer dentists were prepared to take NHS patients, but at least dental care for children 16 and under was free. Now even that's changed - starting on the 1st of April this year, charges were introduced for them too. Granted, the prices aren't high but for people who are strapped for cash, dental care is one of the first things to go. It will be a shame to see a new generation of children growing up with bad teeth because their parents can't afford dental care for them.

[NotGivingUp]

49. I believe you are right...I was reading similar at another site...

I'll see if I can find it.

[tenshi816]

60. Bingo.

That's exactly what my own (private) dentist told me less than a month ago when we were discussing my son's braces - which the NHS won't cover anymore. My dentist blames it all on the Blair government and says they're trying to sneak in lots of new regulations without having the media pick up on it.

[elehhhhna]

15. yeah thank god we have such excellent dental care for the poor here

christ almighty.

[Jayhawk Lib]

32. It is not worse here than in

England and may even be better here....

[havocmom]

53. When I had dental insurance and needed to get in for broken fillings,

there was a 6 month wait to get an appointment. In that time, I moved to a place with even fewer dentists (and now, no insurance) and the two teeth slowly crumbling outta my head. Am sure the process is not good for my general health.

Any, yes, I have tried the plier method myself. Don't be so sure things are better here. Better for some, maybe. But not better for an awful lot.

[Jayhawk Lib]

95. Not better in England

might even be worse...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3109915.stm

[Jayhawk Lib]

97. According to this link

it sounds to be much worse in England.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3109915.stm

[elehhhhna]

82. Can you back that up w/ stats...a link? Dental care quality is very good

here but w/o access (it is VERY EXPENSIVE) it's horrible.

[Jayhawk Lib]

94. One link here

Sure it is expensive but if you need one you can find one here.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3109915.stm

[elehhhhna]

99. Fine...but! From your linK

"Other ideas suggested as ways of addressing the shortage of dentists, including asking patients to come for check-ups every 12 months instead of every six." To the NAtional Health Service!

COME ON. I wish the US national dental plan had that problem.

[sandnsea]

101. Oh man, are you kidding me!!!

I'd go for a system that let adults get check-ups every 2 years, except for pregnant women. That would be enough to keep most people's teeth in good condition.

[Jayhawk Lib]

102. You are wanting to ration

dental services. I have no desire to have a system like the Brits.

[sandnsea]

105. It IS ALREADY rationed

If half the population can't get medical care, it's RATIONED. Hellooo?????

[elehhhhna]

108. "Ration" ? Karl?

[sandnsea]

100. My dentists work 4 days a week

And charge such an outrageous amount that the bottom 50% can't afford them. If half the population is being cut out of receiving services, that's rationing health care. You may have access, I don't. Except to pay $150 to have a tooth pulled, which in turn makes me unemployable. Helluva system you're defending.

:banghead:

[Jayhawk Lib]

103. My dentist works 4 days

a week also. They work 4 11 hour days so people that work can schedule their appointments before or after work.

I am still trying to figure why paying $150 to get a tooth pulled makes you unemployable.

[sandnsea]

104. No no

They're done at 5 and first appointment is 10.

You tried to get a job with no teeth in your mouth???

[elehhhhna]

109. I don't understand that last part about pulling a tooth.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LaurenG]

23. You may want to read the whole thread

don't be rude and call people out. It's hard being new here because of things like what you just said. All your answers are in the thread above.

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. !

:applause:

[Raster]

35. When I posted I was the end of the thread. There was no link

There was nothing to read, track or trace, despite at least two requests for a link. Perhaps you'd like to check out the time stamps to verify my comment. I retract my snarkiness, however I don't retract my hit and run comment. You introduce a subject as flammable as Brits pulling their own bad teeth, you supply some type of verification AT THE INITIAL POSTING. And you may want to consider everything before you wag your finger.

[LaurenG]

36. I posted a link myself before your first post

I'm not in the mood today. I won't hold it against you though as we all get ahead of ourselves sometimes.

[Raster]

37. No, according to the time stamps we posted at THE SAME TIME

Your posting was NOT, repeat NOT, displayed. And you won't hold it against me? Oh, thank you, your grace.

[LaurenG]

41. Please lighten up

We all do stuff we shouldn't thats all.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html

[The Straight Story]

59. It took me but a few seconds to click google news and find it

Probably less time it did for you to post that there was no link.

So instead of coming in and discussing the issue, you chose to jump on the OP for not doing something you could have done yourself (which would have been helpful.

Note - the OP said they 'read it in the morning paper' - hard to link to the morning paper :) Not everyone is quick on the net to get sources to make us happy. They see something, ask about, and such is life.

[Freddie Stubbs]

26. Here is a link to the story

In a Dentist Shortage, British (Ouch) Do It Themselves

By SARAH LYALL

ROCHDALE, England, May 2 — "I snapped it out myself," said William Kelly, 43, describing his most recent dental procedure, the autoextraction of one of his upper teeth.

Now it is a jagged black stump, and the pain gnawing at Mr. Kelly's mouth has transferred itself to a different tooth, mottled and rickety, on the other side of his mouth. "I'm in the middle of pulling that one out, too," he said.

It is easy to be mean about British teeth. Mike Myers's mouth is a joke in itself in the "Austin Powers" movies. In a "Simpsons" episode, dentalphobic children are shown "The Big Book of British Smiles," cautionary photographs of hideously snaggletoothed Britons. In Mexico, protruding, discolored and generally unfortunate teeth are known as "dientes de ingles."

But the problem is serious. Mr. Kelly's predicament is not just a result of cigarettes and possibly indifferent oral hygiene; he is careful to brush once a day, he said. Instead, it is due in large part to the deficiencies in Britain's state-financed dental service, which, stretched beyond its limit, no longer serves everyone and no longer even pretends to try.

more: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

[NotGivingUp]

62. What's your problem??? Several links have been posted. Here it is again

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth....

[Karmadillo]

17. A story in the Times describes one person doing this.

Here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

This is what happens when you spend your money supporting Bush's criminal Iraq policy instead of funding services for citizens. Wondering what kind of dental care the tens of millions of Americans without health insurance get?

http://www.tmc.edu/tmcnews/02_15_03/page_12.html

Children’s Dental Health – A Moral Imperative

More than half the children in the U.S. have unmet dental needs.

Dental decay is the most common chronic disease of childhood.

Dental problems such as pain and infection affect one in four school children, leading to hours lost from school, costly emergency room visits and hospital treatments.

Because children are dependent on others and many are disadvantaged by poverty, we must make special provisions to ensure children receive the care they need.

This is National Children’s Dental Health Month – a time to focus on improving dental health for all children. The recent Oral Health in America: A Report of the Surgeon General, states that dental care is the most prevalent unmet health care need of children. Children from minority and/or poor families, as well as those without health insurance and those with special health care needs, are at increased risk for unmet dental needs. Altogether, these total more than half of all children in the United States.

[NotGivingUp]

18. It's in the New York Times too. Here's the link

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/world/europe/07teeth.html?ex=1148184000&en=0b7b71c4f8d4356e&ei=5070

[Kipling]

19. But dentists have been privatised in the UK!

At least partially.

[NotGivingUp]

25. ...people with bleeding gums where they've ripped their teeth out,"

this is definitely propaganda against national health care

[SOS]

47. It sure is

And the New York Times runs these smear stories regularly.
When it comes to Wall Street profits, you never have to guess which side the Times is on.

[dysfunctional press]

28. dental coverage isn't part of medicare anyway...

and dentists in the UK have been privatized anyway.

[NotGivingUp]

30. there are still public dentists...49% adults & 63% children registered

with public dentists

[theboss]

29. Who knew the British had dentists?

Oh come on...someone has to make the obvious jokes.

[wicket]

33. My grandfather has done this

But that's a long story in itself.

[LiberalEsto]

38. Reminds me of the 3 Stooges episode

in which Curly has a toothache and the other Stooges try various methods of pulling it. When they give up and drag Curly to a dentist, the dentist pull's one of Moe's teeth by mistake. Moe then punches Curly in the mouth, and the offending tooth conveniently pops out.

Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard! England needs you!


Seriously, dental care costs a fortune. Even with my family's good dental insurance, we pay 50% of a crown, and that means several hundred dollars. My husband won't go to a dentist because it would cost too much to fix everything, even with insurance. For people without coverage, it's a nightmare.

We need to pay our CEOs less (Exxon/Mobil CEO is paid $13,700 an HOUR) and take care of Americans better.

[Mist]

39. Hmmm, a number of things occur to me about this story--

I've visited England twice, and never noticed supremely bad teeth. But I was at Oxford adult ed summer classes, and that probably represesents a group of the better-educated and better off. IIRC, for years Americans made jokes about British teeth being crooked, not rotton. I've always assumed this had a lot to do with Americans' love affair with orthodontia, and braces on teeth being almost a right of passage for generations of American kids and teen-agers. You got the dance lessons, the piano lessons, and orthodontia. However, I have no trouble believing that there may be some problems with the dental programs in England. It's always seemed to me that if there's a national program, every doctor and dentist should have a certain percentage of their patients be on the national plan; that way, it's spread around a bit. As for Mr. Kelly, he sounds a bit dental-phobic, and definately needs to brush more than once a day!

[bleedingheart]

54. my friend's daughter (they live in England) got braces...

however unlike here...you get on a list and you don't know when your turn may come for the free braces.

She got them at 16 instead of getting them at 10-13 like some US children do...I don't see a problem unless they needed to do something like palate expansion...which can't be done at 16...

[tenshi816]

69. Braces aren't free in the UK anymore

except for the most extreme cases. Believe me, I know first hand. My son just got braces week before last and we're having to pay for it, and it ain't cheap.

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's a disturbing trend. Over the years that I've lived in England, I've noticed that the younger generations have had much better teeth than people of, say, the WWII generation (pre-NHS). When everyone had access to NHS dentists, things naturally improved over time.

Now, of course, with not very many NHS dentists anymore, the only people who will have good teeth will be the ones who are able to pay through the nose for it.

[Mist]

75. I think here, too, they're waiting longer to put braces on kids--

some of us got them way too young (I was 10). Problems can develop from braces being put on too early, too.

[bleedingheart]

80. my son has expanders in his mouth...

he has gargantuan teeth (from me) that don't fit his jaw...rather than pull teeth to fit it...they expand the palate to fit them all.
so he will have braces now for just a bit...and then perhaps again later when the rest of the teeth come in.

[TorchTheWitch]

93. I had palate expansion done at 16

Actually, I was nearly 17.

[NotGivingUp]

42. They should have included photos of U.S. citizens who cannot afford

to see a dentist. I'm sure they would have no trouble finding photo opportunities!

[AzDar]

43. Not much better here...We have (quite expensive) employer-provided

'Dental',and I'm still considering going to Mexico to have 3 crowns replaced; 1200.00 would be my co-pay.
The only reason we have it at all is for 'preventative' stuff for our two sons..although that's not such a bargain anymore since the insurance co. keeps raising the 'annual patient fees'.
Really, what good is 'insurance' if you can't actually USE it?

[NotGivingUp]

46. The co-pays always seem to be higher than what the entire

bill should be in the first place. Same for prescription drugs.

[havocmom]

51. Hell, I tried that. Couldn't get it to work

but I tried... several times. But with the arthritis rampaging in my hands, I can't get a good enough grip on the pliers.

[bleedingheart]

52. Millions in the US have no Dental Coverage at all and go without

any dental care...

hell some dentists won't see you if you don't have insurance or if you don't pay up front.....

and yet we are going to knock the British System? I don't think we have much room to talk.

Hell there was a DUer some time back who had bad dental problems that got worse because of lack of insurance and money...

[NotGivingUp]

56. yep...mainstream media great at over-dramatizing and pointing

a finger at what is wrong elsewhere so that we here in the u.s. will think we don't have it so bad after all.

[bleedingheart]

58. that is exactly what they are doing...

"hey Joe...don't bellyache about your bad teeth...in England they pull their own teeth out"....it is such twisted and bizarre logic but yet a lot of people can't see past it...

[gatorboy]

57. Dental coverage here SUCKS!

It's the pricing (And the scam artists). And you can't tell me it's because of lawsuits either! A root canal in Arkansas costs $700. And my insurance only allows a specific amount of work done each year. So if you need extra stuff done, you'll just have to wait until the next year and hope you teeth don't fall out by then.

I went in last year for work and my dentist told me I'd needed special braces to spread my teeth out so they could do the work. THEN get regular braces afterward to set my teeth straight again. :wtf:

[raccoon]

66. In the US, if you have money, you can afford to keep all your teeth

in good repair as you go into middle age and old age. If you don't, as you go into middle age and old age, you'll end up with dentures. Or a few teeth left.

Look around..most of the time that's the way it is here. And probably in most other countries too.

[bleedingheart]

81. I have met a lot of folks who need dentures but can't afford them

there is nothing sadder than a 40' something old person who has just a few teeth left...they look years older because of it, it affects their speech and it affects their self esteem.

[Gormy Cuss]

84. I can't find the link now but read about DIY tooth extraction here, too

among low wage working people who couldn't afford a private dentist and didn't live near any dental school clinics. I remember very clearly a woman who described how she just waited until the decay was really bad and then the tooth would just pop out with a little work.

[marions ghost]

89. definitely

poor people in the US just let their teeth fall out. One of the many differences between the "haves" and the "have-nots."

[NotGivingUp]

55. "British Dental Association said dentistry was chronically underfunded...

here's link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4560115.stm

gee...i wonder why they didn't mention that in the mainstream media??? they just used it as an argument to privatize.

[NotGivingUp]

63. "Future dentists paid to stay away"....British Nursing News

Opposition MPs yesterday blasted the Scottish Executive’s dentistry record after it was revealed that Dundee University was offering dental training applicants cash to defer their studies - despite the chronic shortage of NHS dentists across Scotland - after receiving an “unprecedented” number of acceptances.

http://www.bnn-online.co.uk/comments_display.asp?HeadlineID=1501&Year=2005

[StellaBlue]

65. I would bet

That this is an isolated, tabloid-driven story, and that the person in question turns out to be a bit wacko.

Besides, dental care in the UK is largely private. But still MUCH cheaper than here.

I lived in Britain for four years and had only positive experiences with their NHS (especially compared to care in the USA - where I currently have NO HEALTH INSURANCE and CANNOT GO TO THE DOCTOR). While there I had everyday visits for allergies and the like, regular pap smears, one biopsy, and an X-Ray - all FREE even though I was only a temporary resident. And I only had to wait two days for the X-Ray, no waiting for anything else. In fact, I've noticed since my return that going to the doctor in the US is a HUGE hassle. I went for a pap smear and it took the WHOLE afternoon. I don't understand why you have to wait like an hour and a half in this country. And all the paperwork and insurance BS is just that.

This is my MAJOR GRIPE with the USA. We need to sort out this healthcare thing NOW!!!!!!

[NotGivingUp]

67. Thanks for the input! It's really amazing when you hear first-hand

how much better it is in other countries. People have been brainwashed far too long here in the U.S. to think that we have the best of everything. Definitely not so. The medical system here truly sucks.

[StellaBlue]

68. A lot of things about this country suck

Not the "best", IMHO.

$0.02.

[Jayhawk Lib]

106. If it is so bad here

why are people in other countries waiting years for permanent visas to come over here. My friend has a Korean wife and her sister has been trying for 15 years and it finally looks like she is going to get it done.

Go to Florida and talk to the Cuban immigrants. Look at all of the Mexicans coming across the border illegally.

Look at the Viet Namese, Chinese, and Koreans that are here. Ask them if they want to go back. Look at all of the labor problems in France.

You can go elsewhere if you wish, but even with all of our problems here, it is better than anywhere else on earth.

[StellaBlue]

111. So now DUERS are using the old "love it or leave it"?!?!?!

First off, we are talking about WESTERN EUROPEANS here. If they had national healthcare, low-cost (comparatively) university education, free speech, and a strong welfare system in any of the countries you mention, they wouldn't be so eager to come here. :eyes:

And, yeah, of course France has problems. But, IMHO, ours are worse.

And, for your information, I am only living back in the US now because my British partner left me SIX MONTHS before I would've gotten indefinite leave to remain (that's a Green Card to you and me), and I could not stay in the country legally. I loved living in Britain, and would still be there if it had been up to me.

So STFU.

[Jayhawk Lib]

112. Best luck getting back

to Britain or where ever you would like to be. As for me, in spite of all of the problems here, I have no desire to take my chances elsewhere.

[tenshi816]

71. Good Lord, how much does it cost in the States then?

My dentist charges £80 for a six-month checkup, and that's just for the checkup and cleaning. If he does x-rays, that's another £60 or so. You lived over here so you know what that would equate to in US dollars. Private dentistry in the UK is anything but cheap in my experience, especially compared to the way it was when I had an NHS dentist.

My own dentist won't take any more NHS patients because it wasn't worth his while any longer. NHS dentistry is so underfunded that when he performed even the most basic procedures, he actually lost money because the NHS wouldn't reimburse him 100%.

[StellaBlue]

72. My colleagues and I went to a dentist in Chelmsford

That charged 50GBP for a cleaning/check-up. Which, with the current weak dollar, would be -what?- about $80?

When I went to the dentist here in Texas a few months ago (and Texas is a "cheap" place to live), they charged me $50 for the cleaning, $20 for the check-up, and $95 for a routine X-Ray. And I had to wait three months to get an appointment.

Healthcare in the UK is heaven compared to here. Especially if you're not part of the American oligarchy who have "good" healthcare.

I CAN'T GO TO THE DOCTOR. I CAN'T GET SICK. I CAN'T GET IN AN ACCIDENT.

It would break me.

IMHO, this is an immoral state of affairs. People don't deserve to DIE because they are poor. I just cannot get used to this, or the fact that Americans are fairly complacent about it. Europeans would be SHOCKED by our system. Of healthcare, of so-called education... so many failures.

[tenshi816]

74. Your dentist charged less than mine,

and your American charges are slightly less than what I pay my dentist, although you do point out that you live in a place where charges are cheaper than in other parts of the US. If you lived in NYC or LA, for example, it would be a different story entirely.

NHS dentistry is in big trouble in the UK, and I wonder how bad it's going to have to get before people start saying "enough".

As far as medical care goes, though, I'm a huge fan of the NHS and I've said it repeatedly on various threads in the past. Yes, it's flawed and seriously underfunded, but it beats hell out of the American system - and having lived in both countries, like you, I know whereof I speak.

I had two very problematic pregnancies that would have cost a fortune had we lived in the States without medical insurance coverage. When I was 29 weeks pregnant with my younger son, I started hemorrhaging and spent the remainder of the pregnancy in a hospital bed until my baby was delivered by c-section at 36 weeks gestation. I even lucked into a private room. I had superb, attentive medical care and what did it cost us? You know the answer to that: nothing. Can you imagine if we'd lived in America at the time?

Of course you know from experience that all NHS prescriptions are only £6.40 too, whatever drug the prescription is for.

It's hard to go back to the American system after using the NHS, isn't it? If I live to be 100, I'll never really understand why so many Americans are against a national healthcare system.

[ottomattic]

91. Not that expensive here

tenshi816 "My dentist charges £80 for a six-month checkup, and that's just for the checkup and cleaning. If he does x-rays, that's another £60 or so. You lived over here so you know what that would equate to in US dollars. Private dentistry in the UK is anything but cheap in my experience, especially compared to the way it was when I had an NHS dentist."


I have no dental insurance and I pay about $60 for a cleaning. I had a wisdom tooth extracted about 8 months ago. $120 including xrays, gas and novocane. There was no charge for the return visit to make sure it was healed completely.

Consider aside from what your dentist charges you are still paying for nhs dentist subsidy in your taxes.

[tenshi816]

107. Exactly. People always describe the NHS

as being "free". Of course it's not free - we pay for it with our taxes. I'm OK with that though.

[deFaultLine]

73. re:

Health care for the poor in the US is dismal and even health care insurance won't cover many basic needs. Try reading the fine print of one for an exclusion for all sorts of things that aren't covered.

What's ironic here is that while the British have better health, dental disease like gingivitis has been linked to heart disease.

[ikri]

76. There's a real lack of NHS dentists in some areas

There's far more money to be earned in private dentistry than could be earned with the NHS.

In many areas virtually all the dentists have gone private and if you haven't got the money you won't get affordable treatment. People essentially end up with 4 options: 1) Hope that an NHS dentist becomes available; 2) Take out private dental insurance (£££); 3) DIY dentistry; 4) Go to your closest dental hospital (dental schools).

If you're on a fixed or limited income you're pretty much left with options 1, 3 & 4. Option 4 might be a problem if you can't travel or can't, for any reason, be expected to wait for hours on end for a dental student to fix an emergency with your teeth.

As an example of how costly private dentists can be, there was a report on the BBC (I think) about a month ago about a couple from Cornwall (in the far South East of England) who fly to Newcastle (On the North East coast) to use an NHS dentist there because it is cheaper to fly 600 miles and stay overnight in a hotel than it is to go for a check-up with their local private dentist.

[recoveringrepublican]

77. ha...I sure there are plenty of Americans who do the same

and there is no shortage here. Luckily we have 3 dentist in my family, so I don't have to worry. Once I was covered under my hubby's insurance I asked them to start billing my insurance. When I saw how much they charged (and how little the insurance reimbursed them), no way could we have afforded dental care back then.

[GoneOffShore]

78. There's always been a shortage of dentists in the UK

When I lived there in the 70's the National Health was encouraging Australian dentists to move there. In fact , most dentists were Australians.

I've never understood what it is with the Brits and teeth. No dentists, too many sweets, and then, of course, there is the Royal family. Have you seen THEIR smiles?

[NotGivingUp]

79. My brother was reading this thread...he was too embarrassed to post....

he called to tell me that he has resorted to pulling his teeth out with pliers, and when this didn't work, he used the old string and door trick! Yikes! I don't think I could do that. Anyway, he had gum disease and was losing his teeth left and right so he got tired of paying the $100 each time...and that was with insurance. I had one pulled not that long ago...the dentist charged $424.00!!! ....and if I recall correctly, with insurance, I ended up paying for about half of that...I still wouldn't use pliers, though! :0

[DearAbby]

83. I wonder how many people do that here

in this country, because they can't aford a dentist?

[Thirtieschild]

85. Not according to my daughter, who lives there

She's had excellent dental care. Her toddlers are already under the care of a dentist.

[RedEarth]

86. I wonder how many in the US do the same thing.....

for lack of insurance or money. 19,000 citizens are estimated to die each year in the US for lack of insurance.

[meganmonkey]

96. I spoke to a Vietnam veteran a few weeks ago

whose VA benefits are getting worse every year. He had just come from the dentist at the VA who told him he should just wait until his mouth hurts so bad that they have to pull all his teeth, because the work he needs now isn't covered and it'll be cheaper if they just do it all at once.

:(

[elehhhhna]

110. oh HELL No!

[NotGivingUp]

87. I just sent a letter to the St. Petersburg Times.....

Subject: Short of cash, Americans do it themselves

Re: Short of dentists, British do it themselves

A few of the British may be pulling their own teeth because there is a shortage of dentists, but the article failed to report that people here in the good ol' USA are pulling out their own teeth, too, because they do not have the insurance or the cash. The author also failed to state the main reason WHY there is a shortage of dentists in Britain. I think this comment at democraticunderground.com sums it up quite succinctly: 'Underfund a program & then claim that "it's broken. So let's abandon it & privatize!" It's the same garbage that's being shoved down our throats here in the states. I, for one, am very tired of it.

_____________

I had written more than that but deleted it because I was afraid they wouldn't print it. The quote I took from DU was from Bridget Burke who posted early this morning. Hope you don't mind Bridget! Thanks everybody for your input. I LOVE this place!

[KAZ]

92. Great LTTE NotGivingUp!

And DU gets a mention! Let us know if they publish.

[Ksec]

98. My older Brother pulled his own tooth

with a pair of pliers, no shit.

He had a really bad toothache on a weekend so he went and bought a bottle of liquor, got shitfaced and pulled out his bicuspid with a pair of pliers.\

It happens.

[PCIntern]

113. I'm a dentist, as some of you may know...

so I know a little something about this stuff...

In the early days of the colonization of the US, what people with a toothache would do, is go out to the barn or a nearby tree, throw a rope over which was connected to a small wire noose. They then put the noose around the broken tooth and use their body weight over an indefinite time, sometimes hours, to slowly extrude the tooth. As you can imagine, this was often froaught with complications and failure.

First thing to know, is that no one, not even dentists, 'pull teeth' which are in bone to any degree. What we do is expand the bone and the tooth lifts out. Thus, the term 'elevators' - the periodontal ligament is widened and the tooth 'rotates' out of the socket. In a severely abscessed tooth, there is little or no bone holding it in, and it will simply pull out of the soft tissue. Those cases are similar, but not exactly, like the loss of a primary tooth.

As you can tell, I could go on and on, and probably ruin quite a few dinners in the effort. Suffice it to say, that the dental system is in horrendous shape, that I agree with all of your surmises about insurance, about public health, about the fact that it's not part of Medicare, and it's a travesty all the way around. Months ago we had a great thread on dentistry one Saturday afternoon and I really was amazed at the depth of frustration here on the board with the practice of dentistry. When I'm sitting in a restaurant here in Philly, at least one of the 4-5 conversations going on around me involve dentists, dentistry, or teeth problems. It is an endemic, pandemic issue, which is heretofore, unsolved in this country.

Just so I don't get flamed, I must tell you that much of my time is taken up with promotion of DU ideals in my practice - I was just posting that I'm going to be having dinner with Joseph Wilson next month, (an honor which even I can't conceive of at ths point, and I dined with Eliot Richardson not long after he left the nixon Administration following his refusal to fire Archibald Cox in the Watergate days), I take care of people in pain even if they can't pay, and I generally campaign for universal dental care among my peers.

Ths is a very serious world-wide problem - and the ill-informed anti-fluoridationists are not helping much.

[Arkham House]

114. "I've seen grown men pull their own heads off..."

",,,rather than face Doug." It's a man's life in the British Dental Association...