The Illegals In My Yard

[K8-EEE]

Well I am just guessing they are illegals. Long story short -- the plumbing in my circa 1920 house is finally beyond casual repair, after calling in my usual (local and family operated) plumbers, it turns out I have to replace the whole main line. It's twice as long as most of them because my little house is very set back from the street, and like everything with old houses, there are a million complications.

$8,000!!!! GULP!

So I sign off on my plumbing guys and they return with a big crew of people, some of whom are quite young and Spanish speaking. Not surprisingly, the most back-breaking parts of the job (which entails 8 foot trenches some of which need to be hand dug) go to the those guys.

It just started me thinking how entrenched this cheap labor thing is in L.A., I started wondering if it was even possible to get a job done like this without your contractors showing up at some point with guys they picked up from out front Home Depot.

How can the contractors compete with the others if they don't use the cheap labor -- the whole reason this situation is so USUAL is because there is literally no enforcement. If you do construction on after construction hours, you will get busted, if you don't pull permits you will get busted but the cheap labor, everybody wants it and everybody looks the other way.

What really made me feel bad is at one point the bosses went to lunch and left the guys doing the digging, I looked out the window and saw them drinking out of a hose - the hose my dog drinks out of, I went out there and they were looking BUSTED like I was going to get pissed or something?? I brought them out some bottled water from the fridge and some fruit and stuff and they were depressingly grateful...the whole situation is just a drag and given what's happening in the news is making me reflect on my part in it. I do my own cleaning, car washing, gardening, and child care but I guess I do use illegals too, hell, if you eat in a restaurant or buy produce at the store you're using illegals too, right?

My question is, who is really benefiting -- because I feel like I'm still paying top dollar for a lot of this stuff and my plumbers really aren't rich either, they live in the neighborhood here....it's just a complicated situation I guess is what I'm saying. I know there will be some hardliners even here at DU who will yell at me for not asking for papers from the sub-contractors (LOL...as if that would prove anything) so go ahead if you must! But my point is we (at least where I live ALL use these people, so what's to be done?

[Duer 157099]

1. It's really quite simple

We need to use cheap labor because everything else is so expensive these days, and wages have not kept up, unless you're the CEO of the company that supplies the materials.

Again, this whole question deflects the focus from where it should be -- fair wages for EVERYONE.

[wtmusic]

3. Fair wages for everyone is "really quite simple"?

Please elaborate.

[Warpy]

7. Those cheap wages are not being passed on

by and large, but the difference is pocketed by company CEOs--unless they're in a cutthroat pricing war with another company.

I live in a state where folks whose ancestors were born here 450 years ago are brown and speak Spanish on the job. There is no way for me to tell who uses illegals and who doesn't.

The only way to attack this problem is to ENFORCE THE DAMN LAWS, starting with fining and jailing scumbag employers who want workers who don't have to be fed, housed, clothed and get medical care. A reasonable minimum wage would also help, make illegal labor look a lot less attractive.

Going after folks who were recruited in Mexico by scumbag employers is not the right way to do it. We need to remove the attractive nuisance of exploitation. The illegals don't realize how screwed they are on minimum wage until they get here and see the PRICES.

[FreakinDJ]

17. You got that right

Those hirer earnings are not passed on to consumer or worker.

In fact increased Health care cost are passed to consumers as a result

Health care costs and insurance premiums are rising, due in part to the escalating levels of uncompensated care. Rising health care premiums affect the ability of small businesses to provide health care coverage for company employees.

High liability costs and low compensation levels threaten the viability of emergency rooms and emergency transportation providers. Some counties with high rates of uncompensated costs can no longer provide "charity care" for local needy residents.

Nationwide, states and hospitals incur uncompensated costs of approximately $1.45 billion annually to provide federally-mandated emergency medical treatment to undocumented aliens.
http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/03Releases/r-scaapII.htm

[wtmusic]

19. Most people employing illegal immigrants aren't "CEOs"

but small business owners, and speaking as a small business owner--every job is a cutthroat pricing war.

[FreakinDJ]

22. Passing on the cost to the average consumer

Those same businesses NOT paying healthcare or workers compensation on illegal workers contribute to rising health care cost for all of us

WHY DO I HAVE TO SUBSUDIZE THEIR GREED

[wtmusic]

24. You pay it one way or the other

You want to pay it in cost of services, or your insurance premiums? Take your pick.

[FreakinDJ]

27. How about me not paying for illegal employers greed

By passing off the cost onto the consumer and tax payer I am subsidizing illegal business practices and business greed

Screw that

Put the employers behind bars NOW

[TahitiNut]

53. Typical fallacy. It has far less to do with "most people employing" ...

... and a LOT to do with "people doing the most employing." Get it? Fewer than 3,000 companies employ the largest share of undocumented workers. Next, let's make sure we comprehend the difference between "employment" and payment for casual labor. When I pay someone to do spring yard clean-up, that's NOT 'employment.' "Employment" has to do with withholding and making FICA tax payments ... such as when one employs a housekeeper, maid, nanny, or cook. As far as I'm concerned, if some of the most affluent people in this country get jail time for employing undocumented domestics, tough fucking luck! As for 'small business owners,' I have very little pity for any such employer who ignores an SSA 'mismatch' letter.

[wtmusic]

64. Your employment distinction is arbitrary

Small business owners like contractors usually hire workers on an independent contractor basis. In terms of number of people hired and actual dollars changing hands, this sector dwarfs the numbers from your 3,000 companies.

[TahitiNut]

84. "arbitrary"?? Bullshit. Take it up with the IRS.

:shrug:

[FreakinDJ]

73. 130,000 known employers of illegal workers

I've been listening to C-span and they were just talking about SSI has alist of 130000 know employers of illegal workers not being addressed

Bush admin
2005 only 1 employer prosecuted for illegal hiring
2004 only 3 employers prosecuted for hiring illegal workers

Bush admin gave business a free pass on hiring illegals and passing along the cost to tax payers

[TahitiNut]

89. Yes, those numbers come from the GAO/IG reports on the SSA.

Their analyses indicate that of those 130,000 employers, fewer than 3,000 had more than 200 warning letters from the SSA regarding SSN mismatches - the indication of a fake SSN.

[Warpy]

132. Honey, even if you're the head of some fly by night roofing company

that sends out crews of illegals who don't know what the fuck they're doing but still charge top dollar for the work, you're a CEO.

Most of the people caught here say they're going to garment industry jobs and construction jobs east of the Missippi, that they were recruited in Mexico, and that everything was arranged for them.

This is ORGANIZED CRIME, and CEOs of all girths are doing it.

[wtmusic]

134. well now

if every job is a "cutthroat pricing war" small business owners can't exactly charge "top dollar", now can they?

Enforcement should begin from the top down for two reasons: 1) enforcing with large corporations is much more feasible, and 2) these are the entities which are doing the vast majority of gouging.

I don't hire illegal immigrants and never will (I don't use unskilled labor). But I know what some of these people are up against. If you want to make your sacrificial lamb some plumbing contractor who has a family business he's been running for 30 years, it's your conscience.

[wtmusic]

2. What's to be done? Good question.

Count me in on the group that rejects "fine the employers" as a simple solution.

[seriousstan]

8. PAY THE LABORERS. That will never happen because this person

likes saving the money off their sweat. I have done the job of replacing my main water line. In Columbus Ohio, the ditch has to be 48 inches deep because of freezing weather. It is back breaking work and I ended up with a pinched nerve in my shoulder. 8000 for what was described as a long line is not excessive. It actually sounds very reasonable. The only way to get the price this low is to have cheap help.

People would rather wring their hands and whine on the internet when the answer is right there in their pocketbooks. PAY THE LABORERS YOURSELF!! Otherwise, you are a fraud.

[wtmusic]

16. Difficult, for a number of reasons

The laborers often don't speak English.

Most homeowners aren't able to coordinate a work crew and hire competent people.

Most Mexicans who find work in Southern CA are paid a "fair wage", at least from their perspective. It's far better than what they would make for the equivalent amount of work in Mexico.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wtmusic]

21. And I bet you have a health plan for yours, right?

c'mon, the proof is in your actions! :eyes:

[FreakinDJ]

25. Ya his health plan is "pass it off to the tax payer and consumer"

Because we all need to pay for the greed of a few

Health care costs and insurance premiums are rising, due in part to the escalating levels of uncompensated care. Rising health care premiums affect the ability of small businesses to provide health care coverage for company employees.
High liability costs and low compensation levels threaten the viability of emergency rooms and emergency transportation providers. Some counties with high rates of uncompensated costs can no longer provide "charity care" for local needy residents.
Nationwide, states and hospitals incur uncompensated costs of approximately $1.45 billion annually to provide federally-mandated emergency medical treatment to undocumented aliens.
http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/03Releases/r-scaapII.htm

[seriousstan]

28. Excuse excuses excuses. Tell me they wouldn't love the extra cash.

It's amazing the lengths people like you will go to find an excuse to keep the lovely money in your pocket. You cry about the "slave wages" but always find another excuse for not putting your hand in your pocket. PAY THEM and let them buy health insurance if they feel they need it.

BUT NOOOOOO, it is easier to not do shit because you can't fix the ENTIRE world first.

FUCK THAT....PAY THEM YOURSELF!!

[wtmusic]

34. What's amazing is the lengths you will go to

to assume everyone else isn't paying a decent wage, but you are. What do you fork over for someone to dig a ditch for eight hours?

[seriousstan]

37. At least $160 dollars and lunch and breaks with snacks.

And I dig it with them. What was that hourly wage for $75/8hr???

[FreakinDJ]

20. You going to file a 1099 with the IRS

or just pay them under the table

[seriousstan]

23. Pay them! If this person feels so law abiding FINE. Do the paperwork.

I haven't and wouldn't. I consider it a man to man agreement to help me do a personal job. I am not a business.

Using this for an argument is just an excuse to make yourself feel good. Nothing but an excuse.

[Virginia Dare]

31. Do you feel good cheating the government?...

The IRS doesn't acknowledge "man to man" agreements, nor does it matter whether it's a "personal" job or not.

[seriousstan]

33. The laborers and I really didn't see the government pick up a shovel.

Do you feel good making excuses and wringing your hands while keeping that money in your pocket?

Cry me a river of crocodile tears for the government.

[FreakinDJ]

51. Its unfair we should pay for his greed

Its unfair we should pay for his greed

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1225676&mesg_id=1226017

[JVS]

54. That's no excuse for tax evasion

[seriousstan]

56. So hire union. But don't come here looking to sooth your soul

about the working conditions IN YOUR YARD RIGHT NOW! PAY THEM. If they want to report the income, that is their decision.

[FreakinDJ]

32. No it is about YOU cheating law abiding American citizens

You want me to pay for your criminal actions with increased health care cost and increased tax burden as a result

You are contributing to rising health care cost and increased tax burden with your law breaking

I will not support that

Grow up and become responsible

[seriousstan]

35. Then hire union and pay for the job, but that isn't the case here, IS IT?

Try to focus.

[FreakinDJ]

48. Your right

Not to mention the guy probably would have saved money hiring a legitamit legal Backhoe service his first response was to run down to Home Depot and grab a truck load of illegal workers, there by passing along the cost of hiring illegal workers to the average American Citizen

Then you have corporations doing the same thing - again passing off the cost onto the average American Citizen.

The tax payer - the healthcare payer are being raked over the coals and forced to pay for their greed

[seriousstan]

52. I would have rented the backhoe AT Home Depot.

But I have to assume paying the laborers was cheaper ( or this contractor is stupid). The fact remains, coming on the internet to whine about the conditions of the people working in your yard AT THIS VERY MOMENT is bullshit and a lot easier then letting go of that beautiful money.

It is hollow words trying to make yourself feel good. The depth of this persons compassion is shown by the lengths of their actions.......water and fruit! WOOHOO!!

[FreakinDJ]

60. Calif Backhoe min rate $225 for 4 hours

The backhoe also comes with a 10 yard dump truck toeing it to the job and an qualified operator (paying his legal fair share of taxes) Could easily dig 200 ft of 48" ditch in the alloted min time frame

4 illegal workers in 8 hours at $75 would have difficulty performing the same task

[K8-EEE]

76. Your Solution Is I Should Do It Myself?

Oh OK, I should rent a back-hoe whatever the hell that is and dig the 8 feet trenches with it MYSELF! Um....I don't know how, thank you very much. Very realistic! Much of the work has to be done by hand for various reasons/conditions, they are using machines on some of it.

That is just ridiculous.

[seriousstan]

82. WOW, how many time in this thread do I have to say...PAY THEM!!!!

Go out and hand them cash, not come here and cry about their horrible working conditions. Fruit and water is a hollow gesture when you run back in the house to post about how hard they are working and how little they are getting paid. The fact that you lamented the $8000 before ever talking about their condition is very telling.

[FreakinDJ]

86. Owner-Contractor permits allow home owners to be contractors

Yes you could have hired qualified legal-worker help yourself as I did when I had to replace 225 feet of leach field for the septic system of my house

Yes I saved about $1000 off the bill. the whole thing cost me $1600 including materials, and NO none of it was performed by NON-tax paying illegal workers. I hired a backhoe w/truck to dig the field, deliver the rock, backfill the field, and even a little landscaping of the yard.

[K8-EEE]

87. Yes, Well This Was An Emergency Situation

As I've said many times....I was up all night mopping up BAD plumbing problems and called my usual plumbers first thing in the morning, and said FIX IT...they are a family operation who usually work alone, I didn't really do a lot of reseach etc and I'm gonna have this job going all week regardless. When we remodeled we did research the labor and all that....this was a little different and although I expected a lot of sactimonious BS I'm surprised at how the percentage of it!

[FreakinDJ]

95. I agree its not your fault the contractor is using illegal workers

I think it is a lot of outrage at the Repubs for allowing the problems to get to a point where they are now.

But yes in my case the leach field was over flowing, the county came out and locked off the water main until it was fixed. We had to go stay with family and I fortunately had some days off coming to me.

[FreakinDJ]

109. I HAVE THE ANSWER TO THIS PROBLEM

1 you hired a contractor who is charging you the going rate for his services while the contractor is using illegal workers

2. He wants to charge you the full rate of those services while paying the illegals 1/2 wages with no benifits and subsequently making all american tax payers responisible for what this employers does not pay his workers.

DON'T SIGN THE FINAL BILL - DON'T PAY THE FULL AMOUT

TELL HIM REDUCE IT 20% or else you'll turn him in to the IRS and INS. It will at least cover the increased healthcare cost you suffer becuase of increased cost brought on the system by mandated health treatment

[K8-EEE]

115. Whoa, HOLD ON!

First I would have to find out what the deal really is....it was only my (rather sleep-deprived) IMPRESSION that the guys doing the really hard labor are obviously recent arrivals and therefore undoc's/illegal/exploited or whatever.

That's interesting though...let's say what they say when I ask them, unfortunately, we all have to wait another day because my hub talked to them earlier and the boss guys need some machine hydro-something I don't know...so they won't be around til tomorrow. The laborer guys are gone too but at least they were able to hook things up temporarily so I have water again!

Man those guys really WORK...they went to the $1 taco place (delicious by the way, anybody ever go to the Que Rico chain, highly recommended) and came back with a BAG of tacos like maybe 1 dozen tacos a piece or something maybe more and they are really skinny guys, we were joking around about it a little. I guess I could have asked THEM what the deal is (I do speak Spanish) but it seemed kind of awkward and they might think they would get in trouble or something. So I didn't, so oh boy, now people are really gonna yell at me!

[K8-EEE]

63. I Pay The Plumber's Invoice

I assume they are sub-contracting these guys -- usually I only use the plumbers (have never had this big a job before.) They are brothers --

Hello, you don't fill out a 1099 when you hire a licensed contractor to do work in your home, it's their job to do that...

[FreakinDJ]

77. the $100 you save on your bill cost everyone 1000s in healthcare

I'm not blaming you since you hired a contractor who seems to be using illegal workers.

However this practice as a whole cost all of us with increased Healthcare cost

Health care costs and insurance premiums are rising, due in part to the escalating levels of uncompensated care. Rising health care premiums affect the ability of small businesses to provide health care coverage for company employees.

High liability costs and low compensation levels threaten the viability of emergency rooms and emergency transportation providers. Some counties with high rates of uncompensated costs can no longer provide "charity care" for local needy residents.

Nationwide, states and hospitals incur uncompensated costs of approximately $1.45 billion annually to provide federally-mandated emergency medical treatment to undocumented aliens.
http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/03Releases/r-scaapII.htm

[K8-EEE]

93. I Understand That, But It's Not Really Saving Us Money Is My Point

What I'm saying is if you stay in a hotel the maid is probably being paid under the table with no benefits -- but the hotel rooms are STILL more expensive that they were years ago, and if you go to a fancy restaurant and the busboys are paid crap wages under the table it's STILL not cheap....I don't think $8,000 is cheap!! I can't afford it at all, actually....but what's to do when your plumbing goes KABOOOM!!! I wouldn't really trust anybody who did that big of a job too cheap, and if I paid twice as much that doesn't mean they would be paying the labor any better.

[seriousstan]

96. So what is keeping you from paying the labor?

Cry about their condition, but keep your money to yourself. Some compassion there. I guess it is easier to show how you care on the internet. :sarcasm:

[FreakinDJ]

103. No doubt it is all about corporate greed

This is where the outrage comes from.

While these guys are paying 1/2 wages with no benifits for their workers, they are still charging comprable prices to the consumer. Who is in turn charged increased healthcare cost and tax burden because of the illegal workers who are only hear at the behest of the illegal employers.

But NONE of it would happen if not for the Republican controled government turning a "Blind Eye" towards the hiring of illegal workers.

Its simply outrageous

Yes the folks here have a very valid point saying it is racist to blame the immigrants. We need to blame the employers

Transfer of wealth
Yet, that tiny economywide number masks a major redistribution of wealth. The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.
Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. "There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants. ... That's what people are arguing about," says Borjas, an immigration specialist.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2006-04-10-immigrants-economic-impact_x.htm

[treestar]

138. Oh, BS. That cost is imaginary. It isn't costing you a dime.

[Cleita]

29. So you are saying that small businesses have to do

these cost cutting manuevers to be competitive. I always felt that the small business owner is much like the working class person, made to bear the load of our government while the large corporations and the rich floated on top with very little responsibility to pay their way like the rest of us.

[FreakinDJ]

45. Many small businesses hiring illegal works to cut cost

It presents serious cost increases in hospital cost (mandated treament) and rising healthcare cost (2004 est. 20%)

So apply that to what I pay, $660.00 x 12 months = $7920.00 cost of passed along health care because of employers hiring illegal workers = $1584.00

Because guys like this

Screw him - I want my money back you cheat

[Cleita]

59. Seems to me then instead of blaming the small business

contractor and Jose, who is trying to eke out a living at $2 an hour, we should be working on stopping corporate welfare and the tax cuts to the richest 1% of the nation so that Mom and Pop and the blue collar working class can compete on an even level.

There are many laws that need to be repealed starting with the Taft-Hartley Law of 1947 that forced unions to have open shops. This was the beginning of the eroding of the working middle class.

[FreakinDJ]

69. It is indicative of the political agenda of repubs

Destroying Social programs developed under the New Deal and Bush’s small business development. They don’t want to pay for those programs. So why not allow government to turn a blind eye to those dismantling them through over burdening these programs with their greed.

Hiring of illegal immigrants without paying healthcare or some times even taxes increases this burden. In California it is estimated 20% of our healthcare cost to pay for mandated healthcare at hospitals.

[Bozita]

4. imho, a lot of America's newest millionaires are just like your plumber

Their money is drenched with the sweat of illegal immigrants.

[K8-EEE]

74. The Plumbers Are Not Millionaires!

If they were they wouldn't be living in 1000 sq ft bungalos my (working class) neighborhood and driving beat up trucks...you guys just tend to want to demonize everybody involved in what (like it or not) is a routine situation. It's like the freepers saying the ditch diggers are trying to rip us off or whatever, I'd probably do the same thing if I were them, I'd go whereever would benefit me or my family....

[Common Sense Party]

127. Read "The Millionaire Next Door." They very well COULD be

millionaires. They're just not pissing away their money on oversized houses.

[seriousstan]

5. If you feel so bad , pay them the remainder of a "living wage".

Just take that money out of your pocket and make up the difference between the slave wages the contractor is paying them and the living wage you think they deserve. Otherwise you are getting the benefit of their abuse. Put your money where your mouth is. LITERALLY.

Fat chance.

[Virginia Dare]

6. How is he getting the benefit?

You're assuming that the contractor is charging him less because he's using cheaper labor.

FAT CHANCE!!!

[seriousstan]

10. Bullshit. I have done this exact job and know the costs.

Coming on the net and lamenting the fate of the unskilled laborer while keeping your money in your pocket is phony sympathy. The extent of the true compassion extends as far as a couple of bottles of water and some fruit. BIG DEAL!

BTW, we all drank out of the hose when we worked.

Cry me a river of your crocodile tears.

[Virginia Dare]

13. Okay, so walk down to your local Wal-Mart

and start handing out fists full of cash to all the workers there, because Wal-Mart is too cheap to pay them a living wage.

[seriousstan]

15. Oh, I see. One situation can't be fixed unless the entire world is fixed.

Take your strawman and dance somewhere else. Try to focus on the situation at hand. This is a one on one stuation of an individual being able to do something and what do they do????? Get on the internet and lament the "poor poor abused workers".

When I hire the unemployed off the street I pay well.

[Virginia Dare]

26. What do you consider "well"?...n/t

[seriousstan]

30. Usually $20 an hour for digging or roofing or lifting.

Those were the times I needed help on my jobs. Waterline, roof and concrete. I hire anyone I see, on the spot and we work side by side.

[Virginia Dare]

36. What if the guy gets hurt?...

doing your "personal" job? What then?

[seriousstan]

40. What if the sky falls? Excuses!

Try to focus, the laborers are already in this persons yard. PAY THEM!!

You can continue to construct your hypothetical.

[Virginia Dare]

44. Okay, then I'll tell you...

the burden of his care and subsistance falls onto the rest of us law-abiding citizens who are paying our taxes.

You, sir, are the one who is pocketing the money.

[seriousstan]

46. So this person walkingh outside and paying the laborers extra costs us?

What an amazing excuse to keep your money in your pocket while coming on the internet to lament their horrible hard working conditions. Hollow word to placate themselves. They are already in the yard....PAY THEM!!

[Virginia Dare]

70. No, I was talking about the people..

that YOU hire off the street.

[seriousstan]

80. The burden of his care and subsistance comes out of their pay. PAY THEM!

Hire union if you want but coming here to cry about their working conditions only requires you to pay the workers yourself.

[Virginia Dare]

85. Okay, I'll try one more time...

guy falls off your roof doing your "personal" job, for which you were paying him $20/hour, gets seriously injured, cannot work and cannot support his family. Are you going to pay his for his medical bills and support him until he can work again, or are you going to "pocket" the money?

[seriousstan]

90. I would expect him to report the additional income and pay taxes on it.

It is his responsibility. He is self employed. Just like the guy with a truck that starts a moving/hauling service. This is how you get started in business. Not sitting behind a keyboard making excuses for a real life, actally happening sitation.

BTW, weren't you going down to Walmart to compensate ALL their employees for substandard wages and healthcare?

[Virginia Dare]

102. Oh, I get it...

he's "self-employed". You said earlier they were "unemployed". Well, if he's self-employed, then you are under a legal obligation to give him a 1099, I sure hope the IRS doesn't catch up to you, but if these people are undocumented I guess there's less chance of that, eh?.

I just so happen to be in the business of helping people with substandard wages and healthcare, since you mentioned it.

[seriousstan]

114. It is not my job to give a person anything but cash.

It is their job to pay taxes. As for documentation, I am sure you don't ask your plumber, etc. for documentation.

A person with a truck and a sign on it saying they haul, with a phone number, is a self-employed person. So is the person putting an ad at Lowes.

The IRS can check me any time they feel like it.

[Virginia Dare]

117. Check your facts....

or not, it's up to you.

I'm self-employed, and I abide by the law. The U.S. law, not my own made-up law.

Just because somebody has a truck, a sign and a phone number doesn't mean they are a legally operating business.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I do ask for the business license and proof of insurance for every contractor I hire. Personally, I don't want to get sued.

[FreakinDJ]

129. By law contractor # must be displayed on truck / advertising

Its the law here in CA

Too simple to tell who is not in compliance

[wtmusic]

39. That sucks.

Doing that kind of work I wouldn't pay less than twice that. There you go, Mr. Generosity.

[seriousstan]

43. Fine, then you agree with me. PAY THEM

[radwriter0555]

9. Actually, those workers have some pretty tough standards, believe it or

not.

Once they've learned the ropes, these guys don't work for peanuts. They know they offer a valuable commodity and don't let themselves get jerked around. I usually ended up paying $50 - $75 a day for manual labor like that. I had some trenching done in my yard as well, and those guys worked HARD. But, I made sure they had the right tools, bought them pizza lunch more than a few times, provided plenty of bottled water and let them use the bathroom in the house.

You can bet when people are treated nicely, they do a much better job, too. All the workers I've ever hired have done top quality work for me, and while they were affordable they also got paid a fair price for their work, from painters, trenching, landscaping, hardscaping, etc.

[seriousstan]

12. WOW $75 dollars a day!!! How generous!! What did that come out to per hr?

Hardly the "living wage I hear bantered about so often.

Yet another example of not putting your money where your mouth is. Words are cheap.

[radwriter0555]

38. Well, how's from 9am to 4 pm with an hour lunch work out, tax free?

take home?

For someone who can barely read and would make about $3 an hour doing the same thing in Mexico?

I put my money where my mouth is. That's the labor rate.

Union rates for a stage hand are $13 an hour.

[seriousstan]

41. Are stage hands digging this waterline?

[radwriter0555]

50. Ever worked as a stage hand? Loading trucks, carrying steel and trusses,

rigging lights, pulling 4 aught cable in 100 foot lengths? It busts your butt AS bad as trenching.

Hard work is hard work. I figured paying people more than what I was making as a stage hand for comparable work, tax free with a lunch tossed in, AND some respect, is a decent and fair thing to do.

They want to work. I needed work done, we all agreed on a fair price. That's how it all gets done in a community. Everyone helps each other out, everyone gets paid and everyone gets what they want, and nobody gets screwed. It's called being neighbors.

[seriousstan]

55. But you didn't come here crying about their working conditions, did you?

I am addressing the situation in the original post.

[radwriter0555]

130. Clearly, people such as the OP and I try to make the conditions around

us a bit better.

Here's the thing; the people drinking from that hose kind of made a choice. They're not slave labor or indentured servants. Those gentleman chose to do this kind of work, and if they're not happy with the work conditions, well, they can walk away. Now, they won't get paid, but that's how life works. If you don't work and you're shit poor, your chances of not getting paid are pretty high.

I genuinely feel empathy for people who work hard under crappy conditions. But sometimes, it's the role we play, the hand we're dealt, fate, kharma, whatever you want to call it. We are all in the place we're at in that moment for a particular and specific reason. Our actions have predetermined how we ended up in that specific place... but that's where we're supposed to be.

There are hierarchies in all forms of life. Humans have the ability to make sure that others aren't exploited and abused. The OP and I chose to try to make sure the workers doing our chores had a slightly better day than they otherwise might have.

Is it enough? Was it too much? Was it right? Was it wrong? I have no idea. I know at that point of time, in that place, what I did was the right thing to do. I sleep just fine at night.

[FreakinDJ]

11. Illegal Employers cheating everyone

There is no doubt it is very profitable to hire illegal immigrants at slave labor wages and charge the "going rate" for services. This is what has fueled illegal immigration all along

Transfer of wealth

Yet, that tiny economywide number masks a major redistribution of wealth. The cross-border movement of generally low-skilled, low-educated immigrants has depressed wages for unskilled native workers while helping keep consumer prices under control and inflating profits for employers.

Borjas estimates that workers lose $278 billion because of immigration, while employers gain $300 billion. "There's a huge redistribution away from workers to people who use immigrants. ... That's what people are arguing about," says Borjas, an immigration specialist.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2006-04-10-immigrants-economic-impact_x.htm

The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that 22 percent of construction workers are foreign born, with 2.4 million immigrants working in the sector, the largest source of jobs for immigrant labor. Jerry Howard, CEO of the National Association of Home Builders, estimates that 25 to 30 percent of those working in resident construction are immigrants -- though no one knows how many are here legally.

Howard said that in some regions of the country, such as Buffalo, N.Y., very few construction workers are foreign born, while in California, Texas and other places immigrants account for up to half of workers on construction sites. And he said that some working in skilled jobs, such as stone masonry, would be difficult to replace.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/05/01/news/economy/immigration_economy/index.htm

Health care costs and insurance premiums are rising, due in part to the escalating levels of uncompensated care. Rising health care premiums affect the ability of small businesses to provide health care coverage for company employees.

High liability costs and low compensation levels threaten the viability of emergency rooms and emergency transportation providers. Some counties with high rates of uncompensated costs can no longer provide "charity care" for local needy residents.

Nationwide, states and hospitals incur uncompensated costs of approximately $1.45 billion annually to provide federally-mandated emergency medical treatment to undocumented aliens.
http://www.senate.gov/~feinstein/03Releases/r-scaapII.htm

[Fierce]

14. Did you hire union?

I dunno how it is in LA, but go through the local. Then you know they're getting paid right.

[K8-EEE]

97. I Hired My Regular Plumbers

They are brothers, family run business and have always done the stuff themselves (never had this big of nightmare before.)

I seriously doubt if they called Ditch Diggers Local #839, but who knows, maybe they did!

[Fierce]

100. Are they union plumbers?

All you have to do is ask them. Even family businesses can be union.

[Cleita]

113. Plumbers can be union but don't have to be because of

the Taft-Hartly Law of 1947. All they have to be is licensed. I'm very pro-union, but I am also a realist. Reality tells me that you don't have to be union nor hire union to be operating legally. Since this whole immigration debacle seems to be revolving around legal and illegal, then it should be framed that way.

[Fierce]

121. I realize that, thank you.

It just seemed that the OP was looking for the easiest way to solve her problems, and hiring union certainly does that. On the other hand, it's not exactly clear what the OP wants, unless its a collective blessing for doing what she thinks is right when doing anything else is so very, very hard.

[Cleita]

42. While you are assuming that these workers are illegal, wouldn't

it be better to ask the contractor if these workers are getting paid the going rate and that taxes are being deducted and filed on their behalf?

Although one DUer mentioned hiring union workers, is there a union that covers the trenching work? Probably not. For your own peace of mind find out if these workers are getting paid at least minimum wage and that it is being reported to the IRS.

If this turns out to be true, then ask him if he carries Worker's Comp. insurance in case one of the workers becomes injured on your property. You could be liable if the contractor hasn't done these things.

[Fierce]

49. A couple come to mind...

Union laborers and union engineers dig. Depends on the jurisdiction.

[K8-EEE]

72. Thank you for the very intellegent and rational response!

You are right -- I will ask them at the end of the day. I mean please -- when your plumbing blows up and you spend all night mopping the bathrooms up and trying to find the water line to turn off and trying to get the kids to school by borrowing the neighbor's bathroom etc etc etc, I made an emergency call to my usual plumbers and that was about the extent of the "research" involved until they showed up later with the trenchers, if people can't understand that well, OK!

I've already signed off on this job way before the trenchers came but I can tell them for future work I would use someone else and call around for alternatives etc, that I can do.

[JVS]

47. You and your plumber should be fined heavily and possibly imprisoned.

Those whom you have employed should be sent back to their countries of origin.

[K8-EEE]

58. LOL!! The Entire City Of Los Angeles Should Be Imprisoned

I knew I would get that kind of reaction, but it's still funny to see it.

[JVS]

62. Yes.

If LA were imprisoned then the rest of the country could have good jobs as prison guards.

[K8-EEE]

66. Excellent!

Imprison all salad eaters unless they buy all produce at a certified organic farmer and have double checked the visas of all workers THEY ARE GUILTY!!!

Hell is there anything you can buy that doesn't involve slave labor, either here or abroad?

[JVS]

68. I am sure that after a few people get sent to jail for what you've done...

the problem should clear up rather quickly. It wouldn't take long before people realize that it is better to hire unionized workers or rent a back-hoe than to be tossed into prison.

[wtmusic]

88. Your solution is diametrically opposed to a free-market economy

and would never work in practice. Nice in theory, though.

[JVS]

99. I can live with that.

It's time to toss the capitalist dogs into the clink!

[Cleita]

75. If you are in Los Angeles, most contractors wouldn't hire unlawfully

unless they planned on leaving town the next day. Since he's a homeowner in your neighborhood that seems unlikely. Those men most likely are getting paid minimum wage, which I believe in California is $7+ an hour, checks with taxes deducted, and are covered by Worker's Comp. or the contractor could stand to lose his license.

Whether they are documented or undocumented is another question as the law is very vague on what constitutes legal documentation and the employer is not held liable for unknowingly accepting false identification. So the issue seems to be whether they are union or non-union, which the Taft-Hartly Law addresses as the choice the employers are allowed to make whether to hire union or non-union labor.

Like I said in another post. Put your mind to rest and ask your contractor exactly what he is doing. I hope you post back here what he tells you so that we can lay to rest all this nonsense about illegals driving down wages when the truth is that it's the laws that are causing this to happen.

[wtmusic]

78. ?

Do you live in LA? What you say sounds like it came out of a legal brief. "The contractor could stand to lose his license." Yeah, that'll be the day. :eyes:

[K8-EEE]

81. When I Did My Remodel A Few Years Back

My contractor told me he had papers/visas for everybody -- this was kind of a different, more emergency situation and since they kind of left and came back with a bunch of guys I just figured they just picked them up somewhere...

[Cleita]

92. I live in the Los Angeles area for thirty years.

My late husband was an architect. I get a lot of my knowledge of building contractors and subcontractors from him. I know Los Angeles is a big place to get lost in if you are a grifter. But that means you have to disappear pretty quickly before the law and disgruntled clients catch up with you.

I also worked for a time in my own business as a small business bookkeeper. I know that all small businesses who hire employees are required to carry Worker's Comp. or they are denied a city license to operate. I also know that any reputable contractor couldn't get a contractor's license without proof that he is carrying the right insurance.

Also, most employers know to never incur the rath of the IRS and the California State Board of Equilization by not filing quarterly payroll tax returns.

[wtmusic]

98. Well nowadays

most construction hires are day laborers. In fact, a large segment of the entertainment industry is switching over to hiring temps in place of "employees". There is a list of legal criteria which is used to distinguish the two, and employers are very careful to dot their "i"s and cross their "t"s to keep their employees "unemployed". Why? It's cheaper. Surprise!

[Cleita]

107. If they are, then they are going to get a big surprise when they

get audited by the various government agencies who issue licenses. It happens and rather unexpectedly as well. There is that gap in expenses and revenue that will come forward and have to be accounted for. btw when you don't expense your payroll, you end up paying the taxes because the gap shows up as profit.

[wtmusic]

112. No deductions.

You're absolutely right. But there are all kinds of ways to tack these expenses onto other cash outlays, enforcement/auditing is practically nil, and when it comes right down to it it's sometimes cheaper to pay taxes on the income than go through a legit hiring process.

I'm not coming from an advocacy position for anything. But that is the situation, as a homeowner, that I have experienced.

[Cleita]

118. I've been retired for twelve years and I know that things

have fallen apart dramatically since Bush/Cheney ursurped our government. I know that the agencies are manpower and cash strapped thanks to the Enron screwing of California and the subsequent installation of a Republican puppet governor who is further eroding our capability to have a functioning government.

However, if you want change, sometimes homeowners like yourselves can ask questions before you hire people to work on your property. You should be concerned because of the liability you could incur from injuries to a worker. There are sleazy lawyers out there who hire bilingual office help to lure in immigrants to convince them to file WC lawsuits, dangling the $$$ they could earn from it.

If there is no WC to cover you they could go after your assets and property. This is something to think about. The power is in your hands before you sign that piece of paper. You should ask if the workers are covered with WC. WC insurance demands your employee rosters and what you paid them every quarter, which means they ask for copies of the contractor's quarterly tax returns. This in turn means that they are paid legal wages with legal taxes deducted from them.

[wtmusic]

125. Good tip

I am remodeling later this year and I will take your advice. :thumbsup:

[K8-EEE]

79. You're Right -- I'll Ask Them!

The boss guys aren't coming around until later but I'll ask them what's the deal -- this whole plumbing nightmare has been pretty awful and I was up the whole previous night cleaning up and stuff so have been in somewhat of a fog, will let you know (I mean, assuming they will tell me the truth, which, they've always seemed like pretty OK guys.)

[seriousstan]

57. Stunning silence from the original poster.

They must be cutting up some more fruit.

[K8-EEE]

61. Original Poster Was At LaundryMat

Because the water is off at my house! Am making my way through the posts...find that most of them have literally no sense of reality. I think you should be imprisoned for eating lettuce!

[wtmusic]

91. ROFL!

Original Poster is Lying! Original Poster should be in Jail! ;)

[K8-EEE]

94. Original Poster Is Researching Bail Bonds

Due to the impending jail time that will come about by mentioning possible questionable subcontracting irregularities of my plumbers! LOL...

[Fierce]

65. Also, could you explain what you mean by

"hardliners at DU"? Thanks.

[K8-EEE]

67. The Ones Who Want To Put Me In Jail

because the plumbers I've used for 20 years came around with Spanish speaking ditch diggers who may or may not be illegal. Or are they soft-liners?

[JVS]

71. Proud Hardliner here!

[Fierce]

83. Well, I couldn't figure out

if a hardliner were someone who would expect her to investigate her plumber and find out if he was paying living wages, or if he were actually union. Or if a hardliner were someone who call her on her hand-wringing about how hard it was to do the right thing in LA.

[JVS]

104. A Hardliner is one who draws a hard line.

One who has little patience for this "everyone else is doing it" and "I can't afford to do it legally" nonsense.

[Fierce]

106. We understand each other.

nt

[Bridget Burke]

110. Many of the "hardliners" use the Workers' Rights arguments...

Against the "illegals"--at times. At other times, they use xenophobia & racism.

Funnily enough--these DU'ers are notably absent from other discussions about workers.

(Of course, I'm not speaking about you.)

[Cleita]

135. Your statement.

Funnily enough--these DU'ers are notably absent from other discussions

Oh brother, isn't that the truth.

On edit: the HTML format doesn't seem to work on the subject line.

[High Plains]

101. I'm freakin tired of some of these posters. Seriously.

[MissB]

105. Seriously.

[Hobarticus]

108. Hear, hear...

[Bridget Burke]

111. Seriously,

It's hard to stan some of them.

[K8-EEE]

116. Can't Stan It!

I think it's interesting the hot-button responses here...it's been an interesting thread, IMO.

[Virginia Dare]

119. Oh, I don't know

they're kind of cute in a furry troll kind of way.

:rofl:

[Ravenseye]

120. We seem to do fine in Pittsburgh without Illegal Labor

Though we don't have great Mexican food on every corner the rest of our work gets done without illegals. I've seen plenty of work go on in my neighborhood. Landscaping in particular, but other construction work on houses, and land. We just don't really have much in the way of an illegal immigrant population here. Oh sure we probably have some, but not enough to notice.

How on earth do we survive up here? Well down there it seems like the contractors get most of the money and make the illegals do most of the work, while up here when you hire a contractor he generally does most of the work himself, and sometimes has his brother and nephew who all work for the same contracting company that their father owns...

People from L.A. sometimes act like the world would end without illegal labor and if you had to hire people at a reasonable wage...I just don't get that. We're fine up here without it. If someone shows up at your house with questionable workers like that you should call INS on his ass.

[K8-EEE]

123. I Understand That...My Husband Is From Buffalo

It's the same thing, you just don't see it there...I'm 46 and grew up here in LA and as a kid it was different too, there was always some undocs I'm sure given that you have the richest cities in the world like SD & LA on the other side of Tijuana and other very poor Mexican border towns, I mean people are going to come over, hell I would too! But now it's just really so prominent and such a mainstream thing, hell the people that work at McDonalds, a lot of them are Undoc'd....people who own car washes and stuff are absolutey sure that they would be out of business without the cheap labor, but I really think people would just get used to getting $25 car washed (or washing the car themselves) if that were the case.

If NOBODY is using underclass labor then you can compete but if EVERYONE is using it, then you can't be a competitive business without doing it too...so the only "solution" I can think of is to level REALLY hard fees on the employers.

Somebody told me that our whole SS system is "fixed" by the phony SS #s undocumented workers use. Like they pay into FICA etc and never collect on it and that money keeps it afloat? I don't know but it's interesting what DOES happen to those deductions?

[Ravenseye]

126. Well people need to report them

THe only way that the government will be able to level hard fees on these guys if they're reported.

As far as prices, your'e right. As long as a few people are exploiting the cheap labor, and people have no problem hiring those guys iwth cheaper illegal labor it'll continue. The government just really has to crack down. Forget 10,000 troops on the border. Put them to work monitoring businesses in key locations like Los Angeles and San Diego.

Honestly, and I mean no disrespect, Los Angeles disgusts me sometimes. I see flyovers and you see all these green yards, watered with sprinklers providing water from Nevada or far off. Yet how many of those people hire landscaping services to cut their lawns? It just seems so wasteful to water the desert like that, and then hire illegal workers to cut it back down. Something about that really bothers me.

Meanwhile up here in Pittsburgh, and Buffalo as well as I lived there for a stint, we live just fine without sprinkler systems or illegal landscapers. Most people cut the grass themselves, and those that don't generally hire a guy who cuts the grass and owns his own company. Much better for everyone.

AS far as the SS money i've heard about that as well. I've heard that the Governmetn should be able to look at those records and use it to say "Hey we just collected FICA from some guy that doesn't exist at a mcDonald's in Fresno"...they just keep it and do nothign with it. Why not use that to flag people with nonexistnat SS#'s.

[Bridget Burke]

141. The older cities & states in the East...

Have mostly settled down. Boom, bust & gentrification. Many of the rough edges worn off & limited opportunities for new people.

California & Texas are relatively new. Still growing rapidly & somewhat sloppily--sort of like adolescents. Growing pains & awkwardness are expected--but there's hope for the future.

Talking to bosses before having work done is a good idea. But calling the ICE (or whatever they're calling INS since it was folded into Homeland Security) is just cruel for the workers. Your comments seem more rooted in your disgust for LA than in concern for human beings. There IS more yard work in places not covered by snow for months every year. Of course, the job described in the OP is quite a bit more strenuous than moving a lawn.

By the way--do not assume that EVERY brown person you see is an "illegal."

[JVS]

137. Well that's because the rich folks took all the work away from Pittsburgh

long ago.

[Stinky The Clown]

122. A passage in your post got to me deeply:"they were depressingly gratreful"

Debate rages on both side of this issue, but in the end, that comment says it all.

You treated them like what they are ... *****people*****.

And for that simple act of human kindness they were grateful. As would be I. As would be you.

I sooooo wish the 'fence/wall builders' and the 'felony makers' would keep this in mind.

These are *****people*****.

[K8-EEE]

124. Yes And What I Don't Understand

is how people can bring themselves to hate these people, I mean the workers -- if you read FR you would think that everyone who crosses the border illegally does so in order to run drugs, rape and murder people, hell if that was the case we'd all be dead here! If you drive around L.A., forget even the working class neighborhoods like mine, I mean Beverly Hills, BelAire etc, it's the Mexicans doing all the hard work, keeping up those massive properties, hell even carrying the kids around while mom is shopping or whatever, so I can't really get too mad at the workers. We are all human and would all do what they are doing if it's the best option we had.

If people REALLY wanted to end illegal workers they would be pushing for a leftist government in Mexico, so they could address the real cause of it, that 10 families there own all the considerable wealth. You don't see CostaRicans, Chileans or Venezuelans for that matter standing out by Home Depot...they are all refugees from the hellish "free market" unregulated economy that GWB praises Fox about...

[Stinky The Clown]

128. We have a Peruvian woman who cleans our house one half day ever two weeks

She's a legal citizen and in fact does some translator work for the INS when they have need of her services (mostly emergency stuff nights and weekends). (Why they don't have multilingual agents is fodder for a whoooole other thread! Maybe Peruvian Spanish is suffiently different and sufficiently infrequently encounterd to need it? I'll have to ask her about that.)

In any case, she can tell horror stories of what she's had to face. We recently had a discussion about what language she speaks at home with her kids (two very fine young people, I might add). The kids don't want to speak Spanish for fear of being seen, smomehow, as 'wetbacks' (her words). She and her husband, however, insist on it. Her son, who is now in high school, has finally seen the value. Sad that our 'culture' causes kids to think this way.

None of this, by the way, should be seen as an endorsement of illegally entering our country. But it **should** be seen as an endorsement of eliminating the **reason** they come - freely available jobs that pay **just** enough to induce them to come here and a depressingly depressed economy at home.

[shireen]

131. good grief! what a thread!

Give the original poster a break, some of these responses are just plain silly.

Look, every day life is just so damn hectic and difficult for people who are not part of Bush's base. We're paying more for everything. Real estate is insanely high. Dollar is dropping like a rock. In many cases, especially this kind of emergency situation, we don't have time to figure out where the labor is coming from. If you do, you have way too much time on your hands. And even if you tried, good luck finding a reputable reasonably-priced contractor who does not use illegal immigrant labor. They're trying to keep their heads above water, just like everyone else.


This is a widespread problem, and no individual can fix it alone. It has to be fixed at a larger scale by our elected officials.

In our society, fairness needs to legislated. :-(

[treestar]

140. IA, it is friggin' unreasonable how punitive some people are

about this illegal alien thing - it should be against the law to hire a contractor who you think may hire illegals? People saying this could by buying something somewhere that could be traced to illegal alien labor.

[Mr.Green93]

133. Inform them of their rights and what they should

be paid per hour. Tell them about Unions and the Democratic Party. Let them know about Motor Voter. Organize!

[Cleita]

136. Good advice! But I don't think the complaints are about helping

bring the new workers into the mainstream, but of sending them back to where they came from.

[treestar]

139. Construction and related companies pay Americans under the

table, too. Small ones, that is.

The real point of all this employer-bashing is to make it too expensive for new companies to grow to a point where they are competitive with larger companies. It is the reason the laws don't allow these small companies to hire people willing to work for the wages they can pay.

There are many, many Americans making a living sort of scratching by with their own company. The cost of regulation is prohibitive to their growth. But huge companies can afford it.

They don't pass any of these laws to protect any worker. It's to protect them from competition from newer companies by choking off their growth potential with regulatory costs.