The OT was written to ensure survival of the species!

[jmowreader]

Let's cut the shit and get right down to it:

The Old Testament was not written because God is a mean, insufferable bastard who will strike you dead if you stray so much as a millimeter from the party line.

It was written to ensure human beings wouldn't allow themselves to die off.

We're talking a society where thirty years old was ancient and the infant mortality rate looked like Bush's approval rating on 9/12/2001.

The Mosaic Code (the part of the Bible that tells us not to eat pork or have sex with men) breaks into three sections: dietary, disease control, and behavioral.

The dietary restrictions are pretty straightforward: Every animal that is listed as unclean carries parasites that attack humans. Camels are covered in disease-transmitting fleas, which leave the camels during slaughter to attack the workers. Pork has trichina worms, and back then people moved from place to place quickly enough that a lot of the time, they didn't have time to cook thoroughly--or at all. Sheep and goats have worms that will infect humans. Shellfish and crustaceans can be attacked by the red tide, which can cause five different diseases--two of which are listed as "life threatening" and one as "can cause death." And so on. Basically, they didn't know what caused these illnesses, but they did know that everyone who got sick in a certain way had eaten a certain food...so let's put that food on the "off limits" list and be done with it. Instead, let's stick to beef, which was safe and nutritious.

Disease control? One of the reasons thirty was ancient in those days was disease. They had plenty of it and no idea of how to deal with it...so there's LOTS in this book on what to do with lepers, people oozing from open sores and the like. The parts about women who'd just given birth or were on their periods being "unclean" was part of this...I would imagine that they found out that declaring new mothers and menstruating women "unclean" (OT-speak for "stay the hell away from this person!") cut down on diseases, fatalities and suchlike in this population.

And now we come to Fred Phelps' raison d'etre: Leviticus 18:22. There's actually a whole slew of passages about sex in here:

18:7--don't have sex with your parents...
18:8--your father's other wives...
18:9--your sisters or stepsisters...
18:10--your grandchildren...
18:11--your dad's other wives' daughters...
18:12--your dad's sisters...
18:13--your mother's sisters...
18:14--your father's brother or his wife...
18:15--your daughter-in-law...
18:16--your brother's wife...
18:17--both a woman and her daughters, or her children's daughters...
18:18--no aiding and abetting any girl-girl action...
18:19--no sex with a woman while she's "put apart for her uncleanness." This means two things--don't have sex with a woman right after she gave birth, and don't have sex with her while she's on her period.
18:20--don't fuck other men's wives...
18:21--or masturbate...
18:22--or have sex with other men...
18:23--or have sex with animals. (Yes, Neil Horsley's going straight to hell over this verse.)

Leviticus 18:19 stands apart: this one falls into the disease/injury prevention category. Most of this chapter seems to proscribe inbreeding, except for Lev. 18:21-23, which are in there to proscribe the kinds of sex which don't cause pregnancy. With a 90-percent infant mortality rate, anything that gets the pregnancy rate up is good.

So the next time a fundamentalist starts preaching Leviticus 18:19 to you, tell him about the rest of that book.

[LouisianaLiberal]

1. I think you're right about these particular passages

but I think most of the OT's admonitions have to do more with priestly control and tribal unity than issues of community survival.

[IthinkThereforeIAM]

7. Um ah...

... the rabbi's were the "most educated" person in the tribes, ie..... he always had a Torah available and the traditions and practices were handed down to and by him, so I doubt the "priestly control" was only a punitive action.

This is kind or a "chicken or the egg" situation, I will admit, but such "priestly control" came about, one way or another, for the reasons stated in the original post in this thread. But I will stick with necessity driving change or bringing about innovation (tribal leadership).

[LouisianaLiberal]

11. I didn't say that priestly control was a punitive action.

I'm by no means a biblical scholar, but it seems that as the OT laws were handed down from generation to generation they evolved from rules for basic survival to rules governing the structure of their society. How do all of the sacrificial and rabbinical rites relate to the simple physical survival of the group, other than for purposes of organization?

As in most hierarchical religions, and in most governments for that matter, the laws are usually written to keep a certain group in control. I'm not singling out the OT here. And perhaps that is what was needed at the time to keep the group viable.

[Clovis Sangrail]

8. tribal unity

was an integral part of community survival in those times

as a teacher once told me... a lone baboon is a dead baboon

[lvx35]

2. THANK YOU! And so recommended.

I'm so tired of all the posts which view religion as this sort of mental illness which effected all of humanity until 20th century man learned to rise above, as if religion has served no purpose. The truth is that its been both very practical and very natural for mankind, and the fact that religions have propagated all over the world is evidence of thier benifit to their believers. Its just memetics, no faith is required to see this fact.

[Bucky]

3. Damn. I think I'm busted on a 18:17

And at least one attempted 18:18. Frankly, I don't think the cops have the time to enforce all the 18:21's, however.

[BlueJazz]

4. I wonder.... If you Masturbate, are you..like..part Queer?

I mean..If I did it (Which, of course, I never have)..
would I be kinda' Gay because I'm a Man..having sex with a Man???

[MissB]

5. The smilies were particularly funny.

:P

[jmowreader]

14. Biblical notation and smilies do not mix!

I keep forgetting to turn off the damn emoticons...there are smilies that kick off when you use Biblical notation.

Aargh...

(is there a "tearing out of hair" smilie?)

[texastoast]

6. Excellent post

I guess God was talking to them about how to survive. :eyes: I wonder how likely it was that some human power of observation had linked the diseases with behavior. As an example, perhaps by observing over the years that inbreeding really did make for some funky-looking children or a tendency toward leprosy, a prohibition was necessary against screwing your mom. Maybe they observed that when one brother screws the other brother's wife, a big-ass fight tended to ensue. Need a rule.

Whatever--so much of Leviticus is completely irrelevant in today's society.

Sort of like slavery.

But the fundies continue to dwell on the "abomination" of homosexuality, but I don't hear much from them about the abomination of selling your daughter into slavery. Are they okay with that since the Bible lists that right near the prohibition of homosexuality? :shrug:

Dang, I just have to post it again. It can't be said any better than how it follows below.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge
with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. ... End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of
God's Law and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them? :spank:

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? :loveya:

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence. :nuke:

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A
friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not
Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians? :patriot:

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2.
The passage clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated
to kill him myself? :grr:

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27.
How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of
getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) :grouphug:

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable
expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan,

:think:

[Buck Laser]

9. Interesting post...

Having a background as a clergyman, I think you're mostly right about the stuff in Deuteronomy and Leviticus. These rules developed out of a long oral tradition, and had currency before anyone ever attributed them to God. Most of them make some sense as you say, because they were common sense for the people in the region. Just guessing, but I expect people learned to make incest taboo by trial and error.

If anyone cares, I can provide the $2 explanation of the origin of the Pentateuch (aka the books of Moses), and a quick overview of how the OT came together. It may offend some literalists, but I'm really talking about a pretty widespread consensus that exists among biblical scholars.

[LouisianaLiberal]

13. Please tell. I'm interested.

[annabanana]

20. Give us the $2 explanation,,, and I will buy you a star...

I love this stuff...

[jpak]

10. Yeah - but didn't Lot git drunk and have sex with his daughters

after the Lord turned his wife into a pillar of salt cuz she dared to look back at the cities the at Lord destroyed cuz men there wanted to "know" her husband????

and nothing happened to Lot????

:evilgrin:

[idgiehkt]

17. they had sex with HIM, remember

because, poor thing, his seed wasn't going to foment itself upon the earth, or something. Those conniving harlots...but their intentions were good. I know, I mean, I always felt the same way about my Dad, as I'm sure all daughters have....NOT!!!!!!!!

that particular story wins the bullsh*t prize for all of living history.

[sendero]

12. Oh, so god changes the rules as times change?

Then he's a few hundred years late on an update.

[idgiehkt]

15. I just don't believe this.

I sometimes wonder about the tradition of keeping women and newborns away from the rest of the 'tribe'; could it have been because the above were vulnerable, immune system-wise?

Just because some tribal desert culture was bass-ackwards at this point in history doesn't mean that other cultures were. I have a hard time keeping the history timelines straight, but what about the Maya, and what about ancient China?

I think beef can be just as nasty as any of the others...

and my god, there is nothing harmful in menstrual blood or afterbirth...where do they come up with this shit, anyway. Of course the woman isn't going to be in the mood for a while after giving birth, so maybe they just isolated her to give her a break...as far as being on her period maybe they moved her apart from the tribe for PMS reasons..hmmm?

[jmowreader]

18. The Bible's not a book about the Mayans and Chinese

It's about some ass-backward tribal desert culture. Simple as that.

Look at the Holy Lands. They're in the middle of the desert and they're relatively small.

Basically, this is a book of oral traditions that were handed down over hundreds and hundreds of years and that someone decided was worth killing other people over.

[idgiehkt]

19. only because god told 'em to.

sorry, I just grew up in this stuff and it makes me tired.

[blonndee]

21. My conjecture

and this is only conjecture, but I've wondered if they made THIS kind of blood "unclean" as sort of a contrast to the ritual circumcision blood associated obviously only with males? Or that circumcision arose in response to the bleeding associated with women. Female blood is unclean; male blood is a sign of a covenant with god, or something like that. Blood is associated with life and birth and is therefore somehow sacred, but in a patriarchal culture, that sacred element needs to be associated with males? I know I'm rambling and kind of unfocused, but I just find it strange that blood is such a big deal in the OT and of course, that carries over into the NT.

[idgiehkt]

22. I think so too.

it's really pitiful and I think we should just throw it all out. I mean if we can give Bush a rating of 30% for fucking up the last 6 years how can we not lowball this crap that's been screwing stuff up for millenia. Doesn't make sense.

[texastoast]

24. I thought circumcision was in response

to being dreadfully funky after spending 30+ days in the desert with no bath. A natural whacker would get cooties if not regularly bathed, unless of course, maybe if you masturbated, but you couldn't do THAT. I would think the covenant with God thing would come after the practical application.

[texastoast]

23. Women on their periods were belived to be

just a leeeeetle too powerful magically. They bled but they didn't die! They could kick some serious ass when they were like that, right?

[jmowreader]

16. So what's Leviticus 18:20 good for?

I spoke in the original post about the Leviticus 18-series proscriptions about incest and nonreproductive sex. And then we get this Lev. 18:20 passage: no sex with your neighbor's wife.

I would be willing to bet money that "in the heat of passion" was justification for homicide in those days, making Lev. 18:20 another survival-of-the-species passage.