If the GJ votes to Indict Rove today, will supporters claim Leopold Right?

[symbolman]

Not trying to start a fight, seriously. Just wondering where people stand on this. Or even if the Grand Jury votes for Indictment (and yes I will be giddy as well), on Friday, assuming they meet, will those that fervently believe in all that is Leopold claim that he is Right, and that he got the "scoop" of the decade/century?

Or will some of the supporters say, "Oh well, who cares? Close enough..", etc?

How important is it to all of us to demand the media tell the truth, be factual, and professional so that at minimum History itself is not in danger.

They say History is written by the "winners" (usually those in Power), and since Blogs don't have the money or reach of the Media (and yes I'm well aware that the Media loves to talk all about lost white kids and kittens stuck in waterpipes being rescued instead of IMPORTANT things), they are pretty easily crowded out even if they are Totally Right on all counts.

Our site once let the word be known that CNN had REMOVED 750 words from the Hans Blix report, things like NO WMDs, and CNN got SO SLAMMED by many of our action alerted friends of Takebackthemedia.com, that they PUT THOSE WORDS BACK on their website in the same afternoon.

This proves that if we all stick together and lockstep as Democrats and Progressives we DO impact them, and for GOOD.

Sure, it's in their interest to slam the blogs, they're competition, and passionate, and many Corp media people don't understand that a site like the DU is one huge THINK TANK (when we are not at odds with each other), and as a Community we represent a group capable of more research than even their huge corporate coffers can afford. We care about the Truth and we want it TOLD.

So I guess what I'm saying is, that to beat them we have to be better than them, better researchers, have solid facts, and pull together, knowing that they cannot refute the TRUTH, it's that powerful.

I've always wanted the Blogs and other heavy Progressive sites, writers, film makers, flash attack ad creators, like myself, to pull together into a vast organization, unionize ourselves - have BUYING POWER, so we can purchase a big, fat booth at Democratic Conventions and report what's REALLY going on.

This is why I've been such an asshole about the Leopold article, if we are WRONG, and give them a single opening, they'll open up with all they've got, and have already created the impression that we're all a bunch of Conspiracy Nuts. BUT if we have the TRUTH locked up, they can't TOUCH US. We can HAMMER them.

I went on the O'Reilly show once, and most folks thought I did pretty good (he did slam me on one point, and I screwed the pooch on that one, I wasn't wrong per se, just didn't have my info, so I didn't respond), while I got about 700 threats and hate emails, I also got 700 emails from people who said they were cheering in their livingrooms, just from watching a Liberal stand up to the pervert. (Please don't say I'm tooting my horn, I did go on the show and it wasn't to get famous, it was to let him know that our boycott of Limbaugh was a resounding success and try to scare the shit out of him)

Later, when I went on the Scarborough show (the first time he threatened to shut off my microphone, while I'm sitting there calling him a RED BAITER - "So you are going to turn off MY MIC, and then act like you don't believe in CENSORSHIP?"), I discovered that if you have the actual FACTS, ROCK SOLID, and get in their face, they are COWARDS and fold up like Lawnchairs :)

The second time I was on there he was trying to trick me into saying that MoveOn (one of my works ARMY OF ONE was a finalist in the MoveOn "Bush in 30 seconds" contest), was pulling illegal shit, using their ORG legal status Illegally by backing someone, anyone. But I shoved it down his throat, letting him know that MoveOn was "educating" people, not illegally backing anyone.

I also had him cornered in what I coined as a term, a "Rovian Moment", where you have Both sides of the issue covered. My MoveOn submission ARMY OF ONE, was all about Bush's mistreatment of the troops, Combat pay cuts, and ended with a flag draped coffin and the voiceover saying, "If WE Support the Troops, WHY CAN'T BUSH?"

I sat there waiting for Joe the Scar to say ONE BAD THING about my ad, so I could get In his Face and say, "Gee, Joe.. are you saying that YOU don't Support the Troops?" If he backed Bush he was screwing the troops, if he didn't he would get bashed by the Republicans, Rovian :)

Once again, I am sharing my experiences here to make the point about how powerful TRUTH is, and maybe inspire people who feel like it's still possible - it's not an ego thing, and this is not about competition, hell, I haven't even posted to my own site in 6 months or so, just have my film there to try and keep it running.

Sorry to digress, but it was to make a point, are the folks that believe Leopold's solid word (and he's still standing behind his words, as is Will Pitt) that Rove has Already been Indicted going to admit that it was bad reporting? Or are they going to just let it slide, even claim that Leopold was RIGHT and got the "scoop"?

If people let that slide I'm worried that the blogosphere may never be taken seriously, as this article has had a lot of visibility, with the Corporate Rat Media scrambling to either prove or disprove it - and Byron at the National Review is on my shitlist, he called our site a bunch of Bush Haters and screamed that we had no right to compare Bush to Hitler, etc. His reporting led to DRUDGE saying that MY submission to the MoveOn contest was one of the Nazi ones that had been dropped like a hot potatoe by Moveon in a contest that was open to the public.

But I had made my "Bush is Not a Nazi - So Stop saying that..." two years earlier, they got the wrong guy :) So yeah, I know personally how the Media, esp the Right can and will screw things up. The Truth means nothing to them, and they look like idiots to more and more people.

I don't want that to happen to us.

One more thing. Yeah, I've been all over the Leopold story, and sometimes over the line, I apologise for that. I still don't think he's accurate, but we are all allowed our thoughts here. The thing I promise NOT TO DO, IF Leopold turns out NOT to be correct, is to say "I TOLD YOU SO" and Lord it over people, and I ask that if there is some kind of shitstorm should Leopold not be correct, that we all show class, and not hammer those who believed it, or will still believe it.

This doesn't mean we should say it's okay if he's wrong. Let's just not be the kind of people that DEMAND APOLOGIES. Let's show some class. It's never too late, so that's why I'm saying it now. I'll even apologise for doubting the DATE of that particular article myself. (Not the month old Target Letter, unless that turns out to be true, then I will apologise for doubting THAT.)

And for the first one who comes on this thread and says that I'm pre-emptively covering my ass because I'm afraid that Leopold will be right after all, I'm going to give them such a Noogie, I swear :)

I don't think a little sense of humor is going to hurt either. Let's talk about this civilly - H2Oman said that finding Common Ground was important, and after thinking about it I agree, so at minimum we don't tear the board to pieces.

Well, what will it be?

[Kingofalldems]

1. Sounds good to me

[symbolman]

2. Thanks

I've been worried about the brutality that's been going on around here, guilty of it myself, a little embarrassed about it, been thinking about it a lot.

Good to hear.

[Kingofalldems]

9. I got and gave a little bit last night

but I didn't take it personally and I hope no one took my comments personally. I see you as a truthseeker and I admire that. If Leopold is dead wrong he should be held accountable, but if he's 70% right he did good in my book.

[Halliburton]

3. Leopold was not right

he claimed that the GJ had already voted for an indictment and that it was sealed.

[Fridays Child]

What does that mean, anyway?

Is a sealed indictment a secret? Is it possible that Leopold is correct and we just don't have positive confirmation because it's under seal?

[BlooInBloo]

25. Sure it's possible... but possibility is not *grounds for believing*...

... Which is not to say it's ground for DISbelieving either.

I am dismayed at the amount of credulity DUers give a claim for which no publically verifiable evidence exists. And the author repeatedly moves the goalposts on exactly WHAT the claim is.

Maybe it's true. I'd certainly be overjoyed. But as far as I can see, there's ZERO publically verifiable evidence that it's true.

[yodermon]

12. So the GJ

has definitely NOT returned sealed indictments yet? We know this to be true?
Cool, glad that's cleared up.

[Halliburton]

13. Fitzgerald is not allowed to talk to anyone about a sealed indictment

until that indictment is made public. so it's outrageous that leopold would say that rove's attorneys had been served up with a sealed indictment.

[symbolman]

16. I'll tell you what slays me

that "GOLD BARS" Luskin would actually give two shits about a cat :)

Out of all this brewhaha that cat story seemed the Most Outrageous...

[yodermon]

18. Even the indictee?

I'm serious.

If I am a prosecutor and I acquire an indictment from a sitting GJ, and I SEAL this indictment, then I am LEGALLY PROSCRIBED from informing the target of this indictment that s/he has in fact been indicted, without first UNSEALING this indictment??? Then what's the farking point??

Someone please explain sealed indictments please, I am clearly not understanding something.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. The court seals an indictment,

not the prosector, and, frankly, it's irrelevant here because there is no indictment.

That's why you're confused.

Nothing has happened, but people - misguided and lied-to people - are believing that there's some sort of secret project at work on this matter, and nothing could be farther from the truth. Or reality.

There is no indictment. That's all.

And no one knows anything about what Fitzgerald's operation is doing.

No one.

[yodermon]

32. let me rephrase.

HYPOTHETICALLY (do you do hypotheticals?), If the Court (thank you) seals an indictment, can the target of said indictment be notified of the indictment while the indictment is still under seal?

Actually the point is moot because your avatar has caused me to spew coffee all over my keyboard.

good day.

[Orsino]

50. Well, the bets have been placed, that's for sure.

What would you say if an indictment is later revealed that is dated May 12th?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

54. I'd say it was a dream, Bobby Ewing is still alive,

and the whole previous season was nothing but a dream sequence.

So, how come it's five days later and the indictment isn't unsealed? What do you think is the reason for that?

[Orsino]

57. I didn't say there was an indictment.

You said that there definitely isn't. I was wondering whether we can actually establish that at this point.

I've asked (elsewhere) how there can possibly be an indictment that we don't know about. The answer seems to be that the sealing has somehow concealed its very existence. That strikes me as impossible, but I'm willing to be convinced. Can you tell me why it's out of the question?

I want to believe Will Pitt, and frankly, his recent posts sound more authoritative than yours (as they contain more data, and I know his work). I don't mean to portray this as you against him, or against me. I'm just trying not to be too credulous, and that must include my reaction to your decisive--but with less support so far than the Leopold/Pitt story has--response.

Seriously, I don't mean to flame(edit: and will apologize if I've manged to offend you anyway). Can you please help me understand how we can rule out the extraordinary story of the Indictment That Isn't?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

62. No offense taken, no problem

My question remains: What would be the reason for keeping an indictment sealed for so long?

That's a very simple question. Isn't it?

I don't know the answer. It doesn't work like this. My colleagues and I - all of us with 30 years minimum practicing law in Washington and Virginia and Maryland and other jurisdictions - have no answer for this one. Almost one week later, and there's some sort of "ghost" indictment somewhere, sealed, and just sitting in someone's briefcase?

No. That's not how things work.

My posts haven't contained any "data," as you refer to it. Simply my thinking about this story, and wondering why people believe it in the face of its obvious failings.

The only way to explain any of this - and this is the perfect example of Occam's Razor at work - is that there is no indictment.

So, again, I ask, what would be the reason for keeping an indictment sealed for so long? Especially with Karl Rove walking around, making speeches, doing his job, living his life?

Any answers for that one?

And, again, you have not offended me. Thanks for being so polite.

[Orsino]

110. The only answer I can think of is that...

...Fitz is using a hidden indictment to encourage cooperation. But what's the carrot to go along with that stick? Can he make this hypothetical indictment go away if Rove rolls over? I don't think so. The question would remain: why would Rove lie now about the existence of an indictment, knowing that the dated document would eventually come to light?

What are the possible uses of a sealed indictment, and under what legal circumstances could the fact of an indictment be kept secret for this long?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

111. You got me

The concept of "sealed indictment" has taken on some kind of larger-than-life meaning here at DU, which is what happens when civilians (non-lawyers) get their teeth into a legal phrase that they don't completely understand.

Rove's not lying - he hasn't been indicted.

The whole sad story beggars belief, which is why any lawyer you talk to will tell you what nonsense it is, and any responsible journalist you talk to will tell you that anyone who just reports what "sources" tell him without doing the necessary and required legwork to verify the accuracy of those sources - it's called "triangulation" by real journalists - is just blowing smoke. This saga is a prime example of a self-styled "journalist" doing nothing right and expecting to be believed. I understand this gentleman has a history of plagiarism and false stories, so this is just part of a large pattern, perhaps? Or a larger pathology? Who knows?

It's never a good idea to put any kind of trust, faith, or belief in someone with a history like that.

You do not use "hidden indictments" (there is no such thing, by the way) to "encourage cooperation". Before anything goes to the grand jury, Fitzgerald has everything he needs. He's a professional, and no one goes to the grand jury with half a case. You indict, you go to trial, you get a verdict or work a deal, and that's that. It's that simple. People who don't know anything are eager to make things up and complicate them, but they're wrong about everything.

Rove has not been indicted. It's that simple. He may never be indicted, because no one knows anything. Fitzgerald is running the perfect, leakproof investigation, which is a joy for us old DC hands to observe, and it's driving the lesser mortals crazy.

If an indictment is handed down, believe me, your TV and computer screen will light up like Christmas trees on speed with the news.

So, enjoy your day, and, again, given how unpleasant much of the tenor has become with some folks here at DU who refuse to believe that they've been duped, I want you to know how much I appreciate our polite and measured exchange. Thanks very much.

[Justice Is Comin]

58. Well that would be as

funny as a Pink Panther cartoon because the purpose of a sealed indictiment is so that your indictee don't run away on you, and then you got to put him on America's Most Wanted. :+

[DancingBear]

4. Hell, if the GJ indites Rove next year some will claim Leopold right

:) :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

24. Is that your cigar,

or are you just glad to see me?

This one is getting funnier, ya notice?

Yeah, they're just keeping the indictment secret because the cake and party favors that Fitzgerald had planned for Karl Rove and his lawyers haven't been delivered yet.

And Clarabelle is dead, which really threw the party plans into a state of flux.

[DancingBear]

30. Yes, but Soupy Sales is still around,

and what's better than Rove, White Fang AND Black Tooth all in the same room together?

Sadly, I lost my invite.

Can I have yours?

[Stinky The Clown]

33. Oh Noooooooooooooooo

Not Clarabelle!

Oh the pain ... to have learned of her untimely demise in **this** forum.

::::sniff sniff:::::



I'm devastated, I tell ya, devastated.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Oh, dear......

I'm sorry that you had to find out this way. I thought EVERYONE knew. I mean, it was Clarabelle.

[symbolman]

37. Does anyone remember what Clarabelle did

on the last day of the show?

Hint: Didn't die, guess that came later..

But it BLEW the mind of every Kid in America including mine :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

38. He talked, right?

Holy cow, are you as old as I am?

[symbolman]

44. LOLOLOLOL

You win a Clarabelle CRANK on that funky ass little box he wore, never did figure out what that was all about.. sex toy for Buffalo Bob?

And YES he talked.. I think he said "Bye Bye" or else, "So long you little bastards, you won't have Clarabelle to kick around anymore.."

Wait, that was NIXXON, and yes I'm old enough to remember when news was delivered for 15 minutes at 6pm each night -- at one point someone suggested going to a Half Hour of news and was laughed out of the studio with taunts of, "There isn't ENOUGH NEWS to fill a half an hour program!"

TRUE, believe it or not.

And in those days commercials were shown on the quarter hour, the rest was programming, no shit :)

Btw OLL, you are cracking me up, would you be easy to sue for a new keyboard shorting out after being drenched in ICE TEA that came from the wrong orifice? Thank god for the deviated septum or my Key Pad would be toast too :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. Remember Dave Garroway?

The Today Show? J. Fred Muggs. Garroway holding up his hand at the conclusion, saying "Peace." I always thought he meant it.

Yeah, those little black-and-white news shows, and those totally feeble cardboard commercials. It was like magic.

Remember the shows like "Queen For A Day" and "Beat The Clock"?

And, of course - hand over heart now - "Pinky Lee."

Yeah, we gotta laugh through all of this, my friend, and if I'm ruining your equipment, that's just too damn bad. If you'd have them implanted in your lap and cover them with a pillow, NONE OF THIS WOULD HAPPEN.

I've never heard anyone express gratitude for a deviated septum. Different blessing.

No one would ever believe how old we are, will they?

Here's to you, pal:

[symbolman]

49. Oh god - I'll admit it, I'm 53, I heard you are a lady so DON'T :)

My sister said that once she hit 39 she started going the other way - she's now a Zygote..

reminds me of what my dad used to say to me.. "I've forgotten MORE than you KNOW.." :)

Pinky Lee blew my little mind, wild man.. Pee Wee Herman cashed in on these guys, he's a nostalgia puppy, and he sort of DID bring the feeling back..

I actually recall watching Eisenhower getting off a plane when I was a kid, when TV's were ALL B/W.. how about your Block when Disney went FULL COLOR? Whose house did you invade, or was YOURS invaded? For those that don't know, anyone who had a COLOR tv set, maybe one per neighborhood, would go to their windows and there'd be Groups of KIDS watching, a gaggle of peeping toms, that COLOR TV - most would invite all the kids in, hand out cookies, and the kids would dutifully leave when the show was over.. then the TV GUIDE would actually print IN COLOR for a particular show, golly gee willikers days :)

The days of "Good Night and Good Luck" seem to be lost to the age of dinosaurs, still haven't seen that movie, in a way I don't want to.. I remember that FACE, like Big Brother, Looking like the star of HIGHWAY PATROL 10 4! 10 4! 20 4! pusy faced greasy alcoholics..

In those days when you walked into a house the upper third of the room would be filled with cigarette smoke in many homes, according to the statistics I should have died 50 times from all that second hand smoke..

Those were magic days, when people respected each other for the most part, they were taught manners, they'd walk on the right side of the sidwalk instead of inviting you to MOVE or run you down as people do now, just because they crave attention so bad that they'll be assholes all day long..

If a guy gave you shit, you knocked him down, so most men behaved - sounds brutal now, but it worked, it's more human. I miss those, "You wanna step outside and say that? I'll Butter your necktie.." :)

Ah well, now we all HAVE to be COOL, but people don't even know that COLD Ain't COOL (a title of one of my songs).. wear the latest clothing or die..

What's sad is that you and I know the kind of indoctrination Humans have been subjected to since then, little repeater stations with no real thoughts of their own, can't really carry on a conversation, now they speak in sound bites and don't even know it..

But I think deep down they suspect something is missing, and that's their very HUMANITY, no way to recapture it.. they need US to tell them, but that would be uncool.. keep spending, remember if you don't BUY something no one will like you.. their very minds are owned by the corporations, sad..

Each generation has no idea of the freedoms lost since the last..

But YOU, YOU stick around, We're gonna Need YOU When the Humans Take Over :)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

53. Dont' worry .

I'm older than you are.

I figured out a long time ago that 'growing up' would only lead in one, inevitable direction. I then chose to 'grow down.' So far, so good. I love every year, and getting older is just gorgeous.

Yeah, there was a very different, and, in many ways, much nicer world then. We can remember it and replicate it in our lives as much as is humanly possible. I've been implementing my "one strike and you're out" rule for many years now - people get one chance to misbehave, and then they no longer exist in my world. Second chances for some, alas, are nothing but an invitation to have it all happen again.

That said, I've never felt sadder than watching kids today, watching the world as it is, and watching how much they will never have. They don't know, which is their particular blessing - the old "ignorance is bliss" thing, eh?

I'm not sure where their humanity will reside, or how it will ever thrive. That worries me.

But, we're here, we're noisy, we got keyboards (well, I have one - you just have that mess there), and because of our background of data and experience, the younger ones won't understand how powerful we are. I'm happy to give them whatever I can, and that's about all that can happen. The gift, without the giver, is bare, but the gift, if the recipient is unable to receive, is misunderstood.

I worry about the anger I see, anger born out of ignorance and frustration. That's the worst kind of danger for the younger generations, because it closes them down and renders them unreachable. After that, they're lost.

Hey, I'm in for the duration, and I'm STILL older than you..........

heh heh heh

[Seabiscuit]

69. Yes, "getting older is just gorgeous". I delight in every day now.

Interesting - I've employed the "one strike and you're out" rule now for 35 or so years. It's paid off bigtime, especially in my law practice.

I particularly like your observation: "I worry about the anger I see, anger born out of ignorance and frustration. That's the worst kind of danger for the younger generations, because it closes them down and renders them unreachable. After that, they're lost."

That sums up a lot of what I suspect we've both seen on DU not only recently, but over the years. It saddens me to see it.

The anger of the Will Pitt (he's my hero, right or wrong) "groupies" towards anyone asking questions about Leopold's article is a perfect example of it.

[DancingBear]

59. Oh, now you got me started

Beat The Clock - with Bud Collyer.

Seven Keys - with Jack Narz.

And how about a shout out to Kitty Carlisle and Orson Bean!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

68. I saw "Beat The Clock" in person in NYC

It was so tacky and tiny, I was shocked. But, that was BUD COLLIER IN PERSON!

I still swoon.

Seven Keys? Nope, that's not familiar.

Kitty Carlisle was married to Moss Hart, and she still looks exactly the same! She's 900 years old.

Garry Moore. Herb Shriner.

The fifteen-minute shows of Eddie Fisher and other singers. Remember them?

"What's My Line?"

Remember "Omnibus"?

The MIckey Mouse Club?

We're so old. And so cool.

[Seabiscuit]

70. I shook Bud Collier's hand in a Key Biscayne motel when I was a kid.

We were all rooming next to each other on the same floor and kept running into each other on the way to the elevator.

[Seabiscuit]

67. Remember... "Magic Cottage" and "Kukla, Fran & Ollie"?

My favorite shows as a kid before Howdy Doody came along.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

72. I just gave away

a set of Kukla, Fran and Ollie videotapes - something like their first twelve shows - in black and white.

Ever notice how Beulah Witch was a dead ringer for Mother Teresa?

And you never saw the two of them in the same room at the same time?

"Ding Dong School." Remember that one, or was it just local for us?

[Seabiscuit]

78. Yes, I do recall "Ding Dong School" even though

I lived on Long Island at the time.

BTW, the only response to the only one of my other posts in response to yours was deleted by the mods.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

81. That was from me.

Interesting, no? It was about you being older than I am, but not by much, as I recall.

I think I referred to you as my "sweet, almost-boomer friend."

Then there was something about how we agree on the veracity of the "indictment" story.

Go figure.

[Seabiscuit]

85. Well, leftie, why the fuck would that be deleted???

I don't get it. Did you say something *really* "interesting"?

I'm not quite a "baby boomer". I was born during WWII. Actually, I was born the day, May 2, 1945, that the NYT carried the headlines "HITLER DIES"... noting that he died on April 30, 1945. It took several days for the news to get to the U.S. And yes, I researched this as a student a Bezerkeley in the Bezerkeley main library, where I found an original copy of the actual NYT daily for May 2, 1945. I immediately photocopied it. I have the photocopy framed.

As for the veracity of the Rove indictment, why would any post agreeing with another on this subject be deleted???

[OldLeftieLawyer]

93. You know what?

Given the timing, it might have been the last gasp of the story I told you via PM.

heh heh heh

Oh, and I have a copy of the LIFE magazine of the week I was born.

It's this one:

[Seabiscuit]

95. Oooh, I'm going to have to check my PMs!

BTW, lucky you, that you were born on the day that beautiful and well-remembered picture (all over the world) was published!

[symbolman]

104. That's where a whole generation came from

THOSE TWO PEOPLE RIGHT THERE :)

once everyone saw them doing that, then they all started doing it and pretty soon the Woodstock nation was born :)

[Individualist]

84. No one's going to mention Winky Dink?

:(

[Seabiscuit]

87. Well, maybe because Winky Dink was well after my time. :)

[DancingBear]

61. Nope, sorry, won't touch this one

Too fucking easy. :)

"well, you can wait there in the sitting room, or you can sit there in the waiting room"
-Firesign-

[symbolman]

64. One of my faves was

"Hey, is it okay with you if we stick this Antenna up on that Mountain?" (addressing american indians)

"But, That's OUR SACRED Mountain.."

"That's okay, THIS is our Sacred Antenna!" :)

Don't Crush that Dwarf, Hand me those Pliers??

We're All Bozo's on this Bus? - somehow that line seems appropriate given the climate here, and I'm not talking about Hawaii :)

[Seabiscuit]

79. OK, Symbolman, you have me stumped.

I'm 10 years older than you, so maybe you're talking about something on TV after I was a kid. OTOH, it could be something from a Hoppalong Cassidy or Gene Autry or Roy Rogers show.

Where do those quotes come from?

[symbolman]

96. Firesign Theater

Only from the I'd guess late 60's and 70's, hilarious comedy for radio and albums - guess that was cheating with all this talk about Ike and the olden days :)

But they were funny, if you get a chance to hear them, they invented "Nick Danger, Third Eye" a detective radio style series, and someone Tirebiter who ran for office but was nuts :)

[Seabiscuit]

101. I remember the "Firesign Theater", I just don't recall the quotes.

OTOH, I didn't watch much TV during that time - I spent much of that time in Paris without a TV and then back in California without a TV.

TV didn't interest me much during that period of my life. Yet I recall the "Firesign Theater" somehow.

However, I DO recall the quote: "We're all bozos on this bus."

[Seabiscuit]

66. Yes, he talked, as I recall. I was in the "Peanut Gallery" on my birthday

when I was a kid and Howdy Doody was my favorite show. I watched it until the last episode.

I have a feeling we're from the same generation, Old Leftie - but since you're a lady, I, being from that generation, will NOT ask a woman her age.

But I will volunteer mine - 61.

If you're anywhere close, then that could help explain my feelings of comraderie with you (aside from the fact that we're both "old" - and "leftie" - and "lawyers").

BTW, I agree with absolutely everything you've said about this Rove indictment thingy. We've apparently been posting the same kind of stuff at different times in different parts of different threads.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MADem]

5. Hey, I've always been a fan of truth and accuracy

You can't go wrong with it. And the best way to mitigate an error is to acknowledge it, correct it, and vow to be more careful in future. It's also not helpful to beat up the person who made the error, especially if it was an honest mistake, or pretend the error isn't there and get angry at people who point out a discrepancy.

I'll wait to see what happens. I do think Rove is going to be indicted, and hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later.

[Coexist]

6. Great post, Symbolman

I will be first in line to say I was wrong, and I will be disappointed in TO, but can't bring myself to scorch someone on our side for making a mistake. I have made too many myself!

I still love your work - I have no knowledge of what went down between WP and TO and some other DUers, but like the child of divorced parents, I can choose to love you both.

[symbolman]

14. Thanks

I've always appreciated your honesty and sincerity, we've been on this board a long time, eh?

[Seabiscuit]

91. I'll second that "Thanks", Symbolman -

Your post is so easy to read and consistent with my understanding of the whole fiasco Will Pitt started here last Saturday.

It's an extremely sad story of what I fear is a couple of on-line guys who imagine themselves as "investigative journalists" yet are apparently bent on mutual self-destruction in the media due to their own hubris, the real "devil" they should have been guarding against all along.

[symbolman]

103. Appreciate it

I wish I wasn't too erudite, people are complaining, "DUDE your posts are too long" (a nice enough guy) and could state it as simply and eloquently as you have right here.

It's very sad, and here's the part that bothers me, they're getting rewarded for their self destruction. I've worked in Two mental institutions, one a VA hospital and among the spectrum of sanity there exists the need for attention, and any kind will do, knew kids that grew up being beaten and in the end it was the only attention or "nurturing" they got, the adrenalin rush was mistaken for genuine affections, they end up wired backwards..

Hubris is a perfect word to describe this, and in the end they CAN'T LOSE. Their names have been bandied all over the web, media coverage, etc, people are kissing their robes and getting their cancers cured, and they are lapping it up.. couple that with the fact that they seem to be able to actually abuse anyone they want, all the way to the top with no repercussions..

You give a human anything they want and they'll do themselves in every time, look at Elvis, and a host of others, Jimi Hendrix pointed at his hotel room door and said that anything he wanted came from right there, and it killed him.

But they are no fools either, and good at manipulation (I believe that Leopold has been conning people for years, read his history) if you look closely at the construction of the articles, they are contrived to eventually lead to what EVERYONE in the media has been saying anyway, that Rove Will be Indicted, and withing the "next few weeks", that's when the articles became looser and more open ended, then the clincher, FUZZY MATH..

People are being Punk'd and we will all look ridiculous in the end.. everyone may lose money, unless they all donate to each other or join forces.. even if these guys "blow" it, all advertising is good advertising, long as they remember your name, any good crash is one you can walk away from, etc..

As a progressive who'd beat his brains out and spent his mortgage fighting the right I DO take umbrage, as this could end up taking actual BREAD out of the mouths of many sites, sink some, and cause others to tighten their belts.

They could deal a death blow to the Left, that could affect the Election.

Watch as they now start with the good cop/bad cop routine.. the fingers will point so that the circle is complete and no SINGLE one of them will be guilty :)

Thanks for all of your posts, funny how many lawyers are saying, UH UH, no way..

[rpgamerd00d]

7. I think people should stop reporting on what will happen in the future

Speculation just sets you up to be wrong.

Report on things that actually happen, and things will be a-ok.

[Seabiscuit]

71. BINGO!

Reporting by definition concerns communicating facts - which by definition have already occured.

Fuck this "scooping" crap journalists and quasi-journalists are so consumed about. That's just their infantile egos getting in the way of their job. It's all speculative crap - just let the events happen and report on them, I say.

[johnnie]

8. As I said in another post

I am pretty sure that DU will not be high on the list for the place to "break a story". The way that Truthout, Jason and Will have been trashed here the last few days, I am guessing that they will probably go elsewhere first. That is just an opinion.

I'm not saying either way what is going to happen with the Rove story, but I just don't understand why some people here were so quick to mock these people. Well, actually I do understand, but this is not the time and place to go into it. All I know is that if I were a online journalist or something like that, after seeing some of these threads in the last few days, I would probably not be too quick to share information here first.

[VolcanoJen]

15. They didn't break that story on Democratic Underground.

They broke it on their own, independent, and usually-excellent site, Truthout.org.

I imagine they will continue to do so, and we at DU are free to chat about it.

[johnnie]

22. True, they broke it there. Sorry

I guess what I meant was that DU was one of the first places to know about it because someone from Truthout comes here.
I also think that it was and is definitely worth talking about. I was just a bit taken aback by some of the attacks, it's not really my style.

[Buck Laser]

10. Getting Rove indicted is more important than WHEN...

So far as discrediting or vindicating Leopold is concerned, I think factors beyond this particular issue will affect the judgment. I care a hell of a lot more about seeing rove get his just desserts than getting crowing points.

[Schema Thing]

11. If he's right in substance if not specifics

it's impressive, and it's a vindication of his sources. I don't think anyone thinks he's just making shit up.

Hopefully, this will be cause for circumspection on his and Truthout's part. We all want to be first, but you can be first by an hour, with all the good details, and you're the media god on that story.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

27. I do - I think he's making shit up

Put my name under that heading: "Thinks Leopold Made Shit Up" - because the story is so patently absurd, it's beyond laughable.

And, still, people - good people whose trust has been abused - want to believe.

[KoKo]

17. I've hoped for what you propose since early DU days when

we could see the need for support and connection between the emerging web sites on the Left. Hell...we might be forced to do what you suggest if the AT&T's get hold of the internet when congress passes their bill for "paid tier service." But setting up a booth at Dem Convention were sure make our presence known in a big way. I'm afraid that the Big Money is going to decide which sites survive and which don't. The smaller less funded sites who don't have an in with big Liberal Donor Crowd will be squeezed out and we'll end up with more DLC Crony Coruption of the message and any hope of change in the media that's meaningful. Ban together and figure out a way to charge a fee won't be so exhorbitant that most folks can't find a way to afford it but will pay the rent and some salaries. Let the advertising buy's take care of the rest of the funding. Advertising revenue could grow given that the Networks are suffering because of TIVO. I hate Ads...but maybe there's a way to have some control over that by banning the pop up's and the ones that try to grab the screen. Or maybe a subscription would cover it along with selling some of the product to subscribers without any ads. There's got to be a way for folks who are doing so much work out there to make a living without having to sell souls to the Corporatists.

Here's what you say:

I've always wanted the Blogs and other heavy Progressive sites, writers, film makers, flash attack ad creators, like myself, to pull together into a vast organization, unionize ourselves - have BUYING POWER, so we can purchase a big, fat booth at Democratic Conventions and report what's REALLY going on.

[symbolman]

20. Yep

I actually came up with the idea for a "Media Summit" and we put one together and held it for two days in Boston during the Democratic Convention. Greg Palast was our guest and we had a LOT of people show up. No one with any MONEY of course.

But getting together like a bunch of musk oxen, heads out, babies inside the circle may be our only hope as you say. If anyone is ever interested in the concept I've got it all put together, it would be difficult, but imagine a centralized site, with a group of elected editors who choose what stories we are going to HAMMER the media or a Right Winger with that day or that week.

We get marching orders and LOCKSTEP like the Repigs, only for GOOD, all the sites/blogs run the same ISSUE until the Corp media caves, and they will - we'd have POWER.

At the same time sites keep their individuality, but are protected at the same time. Think of a Yahoo page JUST for Progressives with ALL the Heavy writers, film makers, best blogs, celebrities, films for sale, etc, etc as a Portal.

Anyone got some Money? Come see me, we'll teach these bastards in the Media and on the Right a lesson they'll never forget :)

[KoKo]

31. Maybe when this Rove stuff get's resolved ..you could do a separate

post on it. It's kind of lost in here with everyone knawing their fingers off waiting for Indictment news.

Maybe this needs a blast throughout the blogs.

[symbolman]

45. Please don't give my ideas away before

I get a chance to RULE THE WORLD :)

I'll hook up with you on this sometime, good idea.. thanks!

[KoKo]

60. lol's ...got it! n/t

[gulliver]

19. If Rove is indicted, the actual timeline must be as reported ...

... by Leopold (target letter and indictment both). Otherwise, it's no scoop.

[Recursion]

21. JL's claim is he's already indicted

Either KR was indicted last week, or he wasn't.

If he wasn't, JL's "well placed" sources lied to him, and he'll out them. If he was, JL was right. If KR is indicted today (not "if his indictment is unsealed or announced today"; "if he is indicted today"), JL was wrong.

He may well be wrong; I don't know. Sources lie. Sources get confused. If he was wrong he'll take his lumps and move on. If he was right, well, good for him.

[BlooInBloo]

26. Betcha jillion bucks the credulous here will conveniently "forget"...

about the "already" part of that, and claim truthout is vindicated WHENEVER rove gets indicted.

You watch - I'll buy ya a beer if I'm wrong.

And I won't move the goalposts on it either.


EDIT: Corrected subject typo.

[Jazz2006]

75. Not taking that bet - convenient forgetfulness and willful blindness is

all too readily apparent among the "faithful flock" who seem to value faith over factual reporting.

I agree with you that the primary issue is the "already" part of it.

If the alleged indictment was not already handed down by the grand jury and then served on Rove on May 12, then the story was wrong. Plain and simple.

The fact that Rove may be indicted at any point subsequent to May 12, whether it is tomorrow or next week or next month or next year is totally irrelevant to the issue of the legitimacy or veracity of the story, which claimed unequivocally that the indictment was served on May 12. Unless the indictment was returned by the grand jury in court on or before May 12, and served on Rove on May 12, the story is just plain wrong.

The fact that the article was poorly written and was internally and externally inconsistent, and the fact that it was edited after publication without acknowledging the editing on the face of it on the truthout site doesn't change no matter when or if Rove is indicted.

If it turns out that the grand jury had, in fact, already handed down an indictment that was served on Rove on May 12 (which, for the record, I seriously doubt) I'll say, "nice work, Leopold, on scooping the story, good on you for that" and I'll also say, "why on earth did you not use all of the time that you've had between May 13 and now to correct or clarify the glaring inconsistencies contained therein?" because the story is still poorly written and fully deserving of criticism for that.

I also agree with your prediction that to the credulous here, none of that will matter and that it will be enough for them to say, "Oh, but Rove got indicted... eventually" as though that hadn't been predicted, at times quite breathlessly, for months and months and months now, and they will forget all about the fact that the story wasn't "he is going to be indicted" but that "he has already been indicted and served with the indictment."

[stop the bleeding]

23. I will

still read TO, Leopold, and Rawstory no matter how this turns out, just like if you were to come out with Part II of Rove's War I would do everything I could to get my hands on a copy(which BTW should be about Rice). I know that we don't see eye to eye on certain things but I do appreciate the level of maturity that we have been able to maintain in our discussions.

I just would like people to know that I appreciate everyone's effort here on DU no matter what the deal is, including yours.

Peace and here's to cracking the bubbly in the not too distant future.

[Jigarotta]

29. if the indictment wasn't served on May 12

then Leopold was wrong.

but hey, we all make mistakes and I really wouldn't hold much against him for that.

What I find annoying as hell tho is one particular someone here calling anyone who doesn't agree with him names and using insulting language toward those who disagree with him. That is very unprofessional in my opinion and has been the cause of most of this fracas.

[robbedvoter]

34. Who cares? Just gimme the great news!

:shrug:

[DancingBear]

35. Maybe it's just me, but I don't see this venom that some do

I think this whole thing is a discussion on the merits of what Leopold reported. He made hard and fast absolute statements in the TO article, and he has not backed down from them - nor has anyone else connected with TO.

Reading that article at face value, and taking the time line as absolute, it MUST be clear that the scenario Leopold implied did not happen, and moving the goalposts to weasel out of it is not acceptable. Seriously people, if anyone on the right tried the "24 hour business day" update we'd run 'em out of Dodge.

The discussion centers around whether or not the article is true, not whether or not at some point down the road it will be. I mean, I can say right now that I think Rove will be indited soon, but so what? If anyone is taking personal shots at Leopold that do not have anything to do with the article and corresponding journalistic integrity then that is unacceptable, but this is not about whether Leopold is a nice guy, or if Pitt is a nice guy, or about all the times that TO has been so helpful in the fight.

It is about the veracity of this article. Nothing more.

[Snivi Yllom]

39. You can't let it slide- credibility and accurate reporting is everything

If both of those basic building blocks of journalism are both blown, those responsible must be held accountable.

If not, what you have is the National Enquirer printing tabloid garbage.

Just ask Dan Rather and Jayson Blair.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

55. That Leopold thing isn't "journalism," though

That's the problem. There's no accountability, there's no responsibility, there are no professional credentials that would lead anyone to believe that a responsible journalist reported anything like this. There is no reliable news organization standing behind this story, there is no insurance company willing to back the "journalist," should he or she be called to court, there is nothing but words out there, purporting to tell a story that is dubious, at best.

There are real journalists, and there are self-styled journalists. The latter are the ones we've got to watch out for, because they can do and say anything they want without any fear of sanction or approbation - they're simply bloggers, really.

[Maddy McCall]

40. May 12.

If the indictment isn't dated May 12, several people here will look like complete idiots.

And the indictment won't be dated May 12.

[stop the bleeding]

41. October 2005

if it is dated October 2005 then what?

[symbolman]

42. Then it's NOT

"No Soup for you - ONE YEAR!" :)

[stop the bleeding]

43. :)

I know - I have been hanging onto a possible sealed indictment since before Libby was indicted. I also play the lotto from time to time.

Intense week, also I here what you are saying in the OP

Peace!

[Snivi Yllom]

51. or $1000 in pennies

HA!

[symbolman]

46. I guess being civil makes your thread drop like a stone

must be time to start bashing again...

BASH! :)

[troubleinwinter]

48. I rekon I will look at it then, rather than getting in a lather right now.

[Joe Fields]

52. Who is really ever going to KNOW if Leopold was or wasn't right,

if Rove gets indicted this week? There may be three people who would be in the know, not counting the sources themselves. Will Pitt has posted that everything will come out, and then we will know.

All I can do is wait. If it turns out that Rove doesn't get indicted, or maybe it takes a few more weeks for him to get indicted, then two things are possible, and we will still never really know. Either Leopold was lying to several people, including Pitt and the editor, or Leopold told the public exactly what his sources told him, making his sources extremely suspect, which would then cause people to question the motives of the sources providing erroneous information. But, if the latter happens, and Rove doesn't become indicted for some time, or maybe not at all, then Leopold suffers, no matter if he was duped or not.

I would imagine that this has been a costly learning experience, and that Leopold will become a much better journalist because of this drama being played out. If he is being honest with the public, then I would bet my bottom dollar that he is more scrutinizing of sources for information in the future.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

56. So you wait a few more weeks?

Or a few more months? Right now, it's closing in on a week since this "indictment" was allegedly handed down, and yet, unlike any indictment so far connected to this administration, nothing has happened, and there is absolutely nothing to indicate that such an indictment ever existed.

Can you imagine something like this having been published in the New York Times or the Washington Post - both rags, IMHO - and then people being told to wait for the story to prove itself?

THAT I'd pay money to see. Here, you've gotten it for free.

[Joe Fields]

80. You have misunderstood the ultimate meaning of my post, Lefty.

Please read again, carefully. It is self-explanatory, leaving little to nothing toward misinterpretation. No hidden meanings or agendas. Just my observation of this issue.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

82. No, I understood it,

and what I don't comprehend is why you beliieve there is an element of "waiting" regarding an indictment, since it's not a part of the process.

There is no evidence that an indictment has been handed down.

There is no evidence of any sealed indictment.

There is no indictment.

That's my observation of the issue, and, while I understand your wanting to believe and hope that Rove will be indicted, wishing won't make it so. There is no "waiting," because that's not how it works.

Don't believe everything you read online.

Hell, you should probably pay no attention to whatever I write here, come to think of it.

We OK?

[Joe Fields]

86. No, sir, I don't believe that you understood what I was saying.

Okay, in a nutshell: We may never know about the sources to the Leopold story. Leopold or Pitt and their editor may never reveal them, or the sources may have been swerving Leopold, or Leopold may have been swerving us. We can choose what to believe, and that, sir, is definitely open to interpretation, but we may possibly never know the truth of it. All we will know, if Rove isn't indicted within the next few seconds, is that Leopold, his story, and his sources were inaccurate. The reasons may remain a mystery.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

92. A responsible journalist has a duty

to find out if what he or she is being told is at all factual. In this case, that obviously wasn't done, because the independently verifiable facts - like the "15 hour session at defense counsel's office" and the "Secret Service lockdown" and the "24 business hours to get affairs in order" stuff - are patently untrue. A responsible journalist should have checked out those stories independently via two other sources, independent of the initial sources - it's called "triangulation" - before reporting them. Otherwise, you don't write the story because it's untrustworthy.

That's how sources are handled. A responsible journalist does not simply take what he or she is told and then report it. That's what the White House press corps has been doing for six years, and look what we've gotten from that. That's called "transcribing," not journalism.

Nothing should "open to interpretation" when a responsible journalist is reporting things as facts. By definition, facts are cold, hard, verifiable things. None of those were in that story.

And, by the way, speaking of unfounded assumptions - not to mention a smidgen of sexism - I am dutybound to inform you that, during the twentieth century, a number of women went to law school and became lawyers.

I ain't no "sir".

See how wrong assumptions and interpretations can be when dealing with verifiable facts?

[Joe Fields]

97. I come from two generations of newspapermen..

You're preaching to the choir, concerning sources. If you have read any of my posts, you would see we are in total agreement on that issue.

But, having said that, can you now see what it was that I was trying to say in my answer to this particular thread? We may never know what was behind all of this Leopold business.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

99. Agreed

We'll never know, but I'm (personally) leaning toward "pathology" or "narcissistic personality disorder." That's my clinician training sneaking out, though.

Isn't it nice when we can explain ourselves to each other and realize we agree?

Thank you.

[Joe Fields]

107. Agree. Given Leopold's past history, it is only natural to wonder...

My curiosity on this matter may never be fulfilled.

[symbolman]

65. Sooner or later it comes out

FOIA requests (granted they are run through Speedy Gonzales now), Time Magazine, Newsweek, professional news people, it's History and hell, I'm about ready to call up the guy that runs TheSmokingGun.com and see what he says about Indictments, all he does is dig up legal papers on people of interest all day, he's smart too - was on the Colbert Report last week, you could see Colbert was enjoying his wit.

It's NEWS and there are FACTS..

The Masai Tribe have a saying, "The Truth Cannot be Hidden." Nice and simple, in the end it comes out.. Rove can run (and give speeches), but he can't hide..

[meisje]

63. Leopold is a poor journalist and that is the word!

He tried to get out in front for the fame and he screwed up. I could write a story claiming Cheney's indictment next week. If it happens 2 years from now do I still get the credit?

[alcibiades_mystery]

73. Your posts are too fucking long, man

I mean seriously. Edit.

[Inland]

77. By the time I finished reading it,

the day was over and the question moot.

[alcibiades_mystery]

88. You finished reading it?!?

:rofl:

Hell, I've read Finnegans Wake (twice!), but I couldn't slog through another paragraph of the OP.

[Inland]

89. I'm found out.

No, I didn't read it all.

[symbolman]

98. Sorry I keep forgetting that

it's drive by and shoot them style here on the DU..

How about Robots are Bad, they kill Old People and Steal their medicine, they need it to run their atomic reactors..

And Flagboy, sorry this thread bores you (not you archimedes, I think you're alright), go find another..

[alcibiades_mystery]

100. Ahhh, I'm jes feckin witcha

long posts ok once in a while.

:toast:

[symbolman]

109. I know, I appreciate you

love your style, at least you have the 17 second attention span which some of the older kids have :)

I do love an Honest person, always hated a fucking liar, I've wanted to line liars up against the wall all my life, then get out the firing squad until they are all pissing their pants, sweating and fainting, pleading not to die.

Then not kill them.

See you guys, I LIED.. see how it feels?

Maybe on a slow Saturday afternoon once I am ruler of the Universe, if Pitt will ever step down :)

Thanks for making me feel better about it...

[Inland]

76. Here's the real problem.

The relevance of this post expires today---what little it had to any point of interest.

Some numbnuts have actually thought that it was worth recommending for the greatest page.

So it's going to keep festering for another day, being completely moot and adding yet more dead weight to what, in the scheme of things, is a question of the accuracy of a single scoop.

Bah.

[Bluebear]

83. It depends what your definition of "today" is.

:evilgrin:

[Inland]

90. It's a "business today," nt

[symbolman]

105. Well one DU'r and I don't know if she's sprung it or not yet

coined the term that perhaps Will Pitt was being "LeoPoled", so I suggested that if you coin something like that you need a little dash of conspiracy, so I added the "Missing 24 business hours", like the Magic Bullet that killed Kennedy or that women who erased 18 minutes of a Nixxon tape :)

I wish people would start to laugh about this because it looks like it's pretty much over and of course we're right back where we were, the GJ Votes, and Fitz hands out the Indictment papers, like the Sopranos there appear to be only a few "episodes" left.. can he empanel another GJ when this one runs out?

Anybody?

Just trying to get back on subject, remember I said Wed or FRIDAY, so this thread ain't dead yet.. besides, as I said they WILL Claim Victory for Leopold and TO, they have no other choice but to continue the charade, keep working the Marks, scaring off the doubting Thomasas, and being Both HERO AND VICTIM at the SAME TIME.

[Jigarotta]

94. 24 busyness hours can stretch for quite a time

if one chooses to be busy only an hour a day.

[brentspeak]

102. Maybe they'll change the story to 24 business LUNCH hours

Then they can stretch it out for years!

[symbolman]

106. Sounds like Colbert

Truthiness, Busyness, Sourciness :)

[ConsAreLiars]

108. Thanks for these observations. Time will tell, but in the meantime TRUTH

is our strongest weapon. As an atheist I don't claim to have any knowledge beyond what I can observe, and even that stuff needs an occasional recalibration. As someone trained in science, I know that even facts take their meaning from context.

So I am comfortable believing, subject to further confirmation, that the Truthout/Leopold stories are just what they purport to be - reports of what people who are believed to be credible have said about what is happening with Rove. It is possible, of course, that there is some nasty deceit taking place, but there is no evidence for that position other than that the facts of the matter have not YET been independently validated. It is also possible that the reports are completely accurate, but again, the facts of the matter have not YET been independently validated. Or maybe the facts have changed in some way, and Rove's lawyers pulled some delaying maneuver, or whatever.

The point is, the only TRUTH at this point is that we have this bit of reporting, and it has neither been corroborated nor disproven so far. My own view is whether or not this one bit of reporting turns out to be right or wrong is a relatively minor issue in the larger picture. 99.9% of the accusations against Clinton were flat out lies, but it didn't doom the Cons, although it should have. Getting this wrong, if that should turn out to be the case, is not that important in the larger picture. The debate over this detail is one of those cases of myopia, in which the larger picture gets lost. My view.

But your main point is right. Knowing the truth, and telling it, is the strongest weapon the oppressed have, because it means reality our ally. See "Iraq" for more detail.

[Moderator]

112. locking....

Please continue here:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1224473