Brazil 1976 study resulted in 134 self-described skin colors - Race means?

[papau]

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-blacktv12jan12,0,7553096.story?track=tottext,0,6035993.story?track=tothtml

From Henry Chu's "A New Color in Brazil TV" Los Angeles Times story today, he states

"In one famous survey in Brazil in 1976, respondents gave 134 different terms to describe their skin color, including "cashew-like," "burnt yellow" and "dark tan." (There was also "roseate" and "bluish.") Mixed-race couples are so common they go unnoticed."

Thinking about it now, I was wondering what a "mixed race couple" was defined as?

[blue2helix]

1. Chex Party Mix!

: )

[woodsprite]

2. My son asked me the other day if he was "white".

I said "Well, people do call us "white", while brown-skinned people are called "black". I told him it's not good or bad, just that we're different, and sometimes different is good. He was complaining that his friend said he was white. I asked him what he thought. He said that he is tan and Zakir is brown. I said "See, you're right! There's not much difference between us, is there?" He seemed happy with that.

Now, if the whole world could see it that way.

[papau]

3. From your post to God's ear - I also wish for "not much difference"

being the only thought.

[ginnyinWI]

4. scientifically, there are no "races"

It's culturally defined. There is no blood test or other scientific measure which can determine any specific "race". Any human can "mate" with any other human, theoretically anyway! So we are all one race, the human race.

[blue2helix]

5. Actually a DNA test can identify race

But interestingly enough, the genetic difference that would constitute a phenotypical (observable) difference between a person of one race and a person of another, is infinitisimaly small when compared to the total genetic difference between individuals of the same race (or any race for that matter).

[Ally McLesbian]

6. You may want to...

... look into old Nazi science (visit a Holocaust museum near you) to see how they tried to "define" race (there were 8 racial groups in Europe, with hierarchy putting Anglo-Germans and Scandinavians on top, Slavs and Latins further down, and Jews and Arabs at the bottom).

Of course, this pseudo-science was more politics than science to justify the racial politics of Adolf Hitler, but it does reveal a lot about how people WANT to perceive race (and how dangerous that can sometimes be).

[blue2helix]

8. Don't be like Creationists -Science is neutral - People can be evil

I am fully aware, as much as any educated person on this board about eugenics and the Nazi's, but the science is unmistakable, a DNA test can determine race, (http://www.dnaprint.com/welcome/productsandservices/forensics/), just as it can determine your hair color or sex or disease etc...

My solution to evil is not to put my head in the sand regarding science. Let's not be left wing versions of Creationists. Let science be driven by the scientific method. Politics is something else.

[papau]

9. DNA can identify skin color - not race. Indeed we do not even have a

definition of DNA by race - because it is impossible to ask DNA to define that which is not defined.

There is no such thing as race.

typical village characteristics do exist - of course - based on the smaller gene pool. But that ends up meaning a million or more "races" (I'd love to see the defining criteria - and then note the 99.999999999999999% overlap with all the other villages - regardless of skin color - and then ask again "just how did you define this particular "race").

If you can point me to a paper where someone claims to know the phenotypical (observable) difference between a person of one race and another race - beyond skin color - I sure would appreciate it. It would be fun tearing that "scientist" a new one and then discussing his work with the institution that granted the degree,

[KittyWampus]

13. Asians 60% more likely to develop diabetes eating American food

even when they are not noticably over weight.

What is that, if not a result of racial difference?

[papau]

17. You MUST have a definition of "Asians" - what is it? If a sub-population

gets diabetes at the same rate as "Americans" (again we need a definition of the race called "American") is that sub-population now of the "American" race?

The differences in area genes - by village - is very real. And diet of one village will be upsetting to those in another village.

But all that is geographic - a result of a thousand years of no one traveling more than 20 miles from home. Indeed milk and wheat problems have different rates - but is "white Irish" with a wheat problem the same race as an "African" with a wheat problem?

[blue2helix]

15. Wrong - emotional Ignorance! See Link

Another case of "Emotional" science. What is defined is geographical and ancestral gene pool and it is objective. Don't confuse political id of race as oppossed to a genetic - gene pool definition. Please don't be like the creationists!

http://www.dnaprint.com/welcome/productsandservices/forensics/

DNAWitness will provide the percentage of genetic make up amongst the four possible groups of Sub-Saharan African, Native American, East Asian, and European. When appropriate, DNAWitness allows for a breakdown of the European ancestry into four components: Northwestern European, Southeastern European, Middle Eastern and South Asian. The names of the components/groups is meaningful but not exact, since they are cast in modern-day terminology but the assay is an anthropological one that reports affiliation with populations who share common ancestry extending back many thousands of years. The real value of the percentages reported are as population (rather than individual) bar-codes, which are very useful for inferring certain elements of physical appearance."

Derrick Todd Lee, the alleged Louisiana serial killer, was recently apprehended and has been convicted for first-degree murder and aggravated rape. The Louisiana Multi-Agency Homicide Task Force (including the Baton Rouge Police, the FBI and other agencies) had initially relied on faulty eye-witness testimony to develop a “Caucasian” description for the “person of interest”. DNAPrint ™ was hired to analyze the DNA evidence left at some of the crime scenes and determined that the suspect was 85% Sub-Saharan African and 15% Native American. Based upon these findings, the Task Force materially altered the focus of their investigation and included Derrick Todd Lee as a person of interest. ABC’s Prime Time Thursday recently featured DNAPrint™ with a story detailing the role DNAWitness™ had in the resolution of this case. In addition, this case was featured in US News and World Report (June 23, 2003), the New York Times (June 3, 2003), Popular Science (December, 2003), and prior to the case, by CBS Evening News.

In addition, this information will eventually enable personalized medicine, where drugs can be tailored to take into account your individual genetic make up . The first place to start will be to analyze your ancestry, for the purpose of screening out genetic disease that is predominant in certain gene pools (race, ancestry or whatever makes you feel better).

Are you against stem cell research too!

BTW are you educated in genetics? Because I am (at Columbia University where I worked in a genetics Lab).

Are you ready to tear yourself a new one? :)

[papau]

18. You need to see the larger picture perhaps - we agree on the

geographic nature of DNA and that folks can trace ancestors movements by DNA.

But until you give me a definition of even one race via DNA, there is no "race" in DNA. (And yes I ran this by the sister with the advance degrees in genetics from the University of Illinois - a state school unlike Columbia - but she is pretty smart :-) )

[blue2helix]

22. just semantics

Didn't you read the link. They were able to identify a guy as %85 Sub-Saharan African and %15 Native American! And the cops caught the guy and confirmed its accuracy! How much more specific can you get!

A race,or gene pool, or whatever you want yo call it, exists because of defined breeding populations which over time result in genetic and phenotypical similarities, including hair color and texture, skin color, disease tendencies etc... DNA testing locates and analyzes these statistical similarities known to exist within these populations.

When you talk about "race" or "ancestry" you are talking about population tendencies, so it only serves as a general marker, but nonetheless it is an accurate and objective marker. Once that population marker is verified, you can then zero in on the richness that is the individual!

I do understand you concern that erroneous "race" language has been used to justify abusive racial inequality. I just don't want us to make the same mistake that the right does with creationism and stem cell research. Science is about the scientific method.

Your "larger picture" is a political and moral concern not a scientific one. And it is a valid concern! Just don't confuse it with Science.

[papau]

27. I agree-but the lanuage/word "race" as short hand for population marker is

not useful.

[blue2helix]

29. Definition of Race

NOUN:

A local geographic or global human population distinguished as a more or less distinct group by genetically transmitted physical characteristics.
A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the German race.
A genealogical line; a lineage.
Humans considered as a group.

Biology
An interbreeding, usually geographically isolated population of organisms differing from other populations of the same species in the frequency of hereditary traits. A race that has been given formal taxonomic recognition is known as a subspecies.
A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.

[papau]

30. Common usage is "oriental/asian", white, and not white -and no other term

the result of using the word race is that the non-expert listener or reader thinks you have finally got the DNA profile of "n-ggers" and can explain why they are whatever - as in not smart, or very athletic, etc.

It is a hot button word that is misunderstood by the general public as equivalent to "subspecies" with the emphasis on "sub" as in subordinate.

Granted you are totally correct in terms of science vovabulary.

I just do not see the use of the word race - if ones does not state that there are millions of races in term of a local geographic group - as a useful way to express what is being talked about.

[Selatius]

20. There's some debate on that issue.

Certain heart medications, for instance, work better for lighter-skinned people with ancestors from Europe than for people with ancestors from Africa. While I'm not saying that there are finite demarcation points between Blacks, Asians, or Whites because none exist, all I'm saying is that there are statistical guideposts one could use with respect to medicinal issues such as this, and a guidepost is not a brick wall.

For instance, certain genetic traits and qualities appear more often in certain populations than in others with respect to origin, but it should not be taken to assume that this population should be treated any differently from any other population, nor should it be considered that they are a separate "species" or "race" because they are still capable of mixing blood with everybody else.

[EFerrari]

25. The term "race" has no meaning in science. n/t

[blue2helix]

26. No Debate - It's a Fact (just use "gene pool" or "ancestry")

Actually, it's the holy grail of medicine to take into account our genetic makeup so that drugs can be tailored to our individual needs. The first marker on the road map to that place is the consideration of our genetic ancestry (race or whatever makes people feel better). Once you start from there, you can then go deeper into our individual genetic makeup such as mutations etc..

Pretty soon, your doctor will do a DNA test on you and tailor a specific therapy for you and only you!

[papau]

28. I agree :-)

:-)

[EFerrari]

24. Exactly. n/t

[kwassa]

7. Racial politics are different in different countries

this is really the chief point in the article:

Surf the channels on Brazilian TV and a clutch of beautiful people quickly crowds the screen: bikinied models, stubble-cheeked soap opera leads, natty news anchors. All are svelte and good-looking. Virtually all are white.

When darker-skinned characters crop up in TV dramas, almost invariably they appear as maids and other domestic workers, or worse. "The soap operas here, the black people are always miserable, and they have an important role only when you're talking about crime," said Silva, 50.

(jump)

The backlash exposed the extent to which race remains a raw nerve in this country. The debate takes direct aim at one of the most cherished notions of Brazilians' sense of themselves: the idea of Brazil as a "racial democracy" where skin color doesn't matter.

The concept was articulated more than 70 years ago by anthropologist Gilberto Freyre, who postulated that relatively peaceful coexistence and widespread miscegenation among white masters and their black slaves gave rise to Brazil's more relaxed attitude toward race.

[papau]

10. True - New England did not have many of color - so Irish and French

were the "colored" - indeed there is a book out called "how the Irish became white".

In the midwest, Greek communities got massive attacks (Omaha ?)as they were given the role of "the colored". Again there are great FDR 1930's program books out there that follow each group and discuss where that group had to be the "colored".

[kwassa]

11. I am thinking more internationally

For example, how badly North Africans are treated in France, while African-Americans have been treated well there. How the racial animosity in England is really towards Pakastanis rather than blacks, and how in some South American countries it is towards the indigenous Native American population. Our racial divide, in its dynamic, is fairly unique to us.

The Irish and French became white because they didn't have the skin color difference to overcome. Black Americans don't have that option.

[Loonman]

12. Bingo.......... ever watch the kid's show Xuxa?

Ever notice how Xuxa never picked any dark skinned kids to be with her on stage?

[Swamp Rat]

14. "Race" is a construct used to subjugate people.

It is an illusion ... it does not exist.

[papau]

21. True - 134 shades of skin color and so few "races". The German

race definition system end of the 19th century had more than 70 "races".

Interesting how it will not die - and indeed when I did a rough calc and showed that chance of not having an ancestor or two from a "black" part of the world, my friend said he was that one in ten million (this was 1960's science). Now he laughs and admits how silly the idea is.

But he had to overcome a southern way of thinking. I wonder how long it will be until we get to just noting height , weight, color of skin, color of eyes, color of hair - in other words just noting the things that are real.

[Greybnk48]

16. In my universe there are no "races"

I divide the world up into the "assh*les" and "non-ass-h*les" and let it go at that. I do fine tune it with sub-categories. Guess which major category all repugs fall under.

[papau]

19. LOL - I agree! :-)

:-)

[hunter]

23. All couples are mixed race, more or less.

I mean unless they marry their siblings or something...



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