DU'ers are not being logical about this supposed Rove indictment

[debbierlus]

This will not be covered up. Fitz will ANNOUNCE it, and he will have a press conference. Filings will be put up on his site. I think we may be WAY premature in putting on our tin foil hats.

I PROMISE you that this will get huge MSM media coverage.

PROMISE!

[uppityperson]

1. but I wanna be first to know.

wahhhh, it's not fair. It will not get covered up, no way. patience

[mom cat]

18. Well, sorry. Jason Leopold was the first! ... but we got a sneek preview!

[OldLeftieLawyer]

2. It comes from the grand jury,

which, if no one's noticed, doesn't sit in session on weekends.

This is hilarious.

[bigwillq]

4. What's hilarious?

:shrug:

[OldLeftieLawyer]

9. All of this

about an indictment and 15 hour meetings and things that never happened, but people sure do get worked up about them, and I find it all hilarious.

It's also kind of dispiriting that there's so little substantive information about how the grand jury works. It's not complicated, and can be read about in a matter of a half hour or so. That kind of lack of understanding makes me sad, but watching this whole fantasy go forth is hilarious.

[joemurphy]

17. It's wishful thinking run riot.

My guess is that an indictment is probably imminent, but still hasn't happened. And you're right, Leftie, it can't happen until the grand jury meets, which didn't happen Friday when Leopold said the indictment had happened.

And as I said before, 15 hour meetings with defense lawyers aren't Fitz's style.

[bigwillq]

19. I am waiting for an official announcement

before I start celebrating.
Not that I don't believe the Truth Out article, they are usually accurate but until it's on the front pages of magazines, newspaper, internet sites all over the world then I will celebrate.

We will find out soon enough. I hope it's true! :bounce:

[depakid]

23. There will always be rumors

but in the end it's up to the members of the Grand Jury vote to return an indictment.

Like you I seriously doubt that there's been an order to keep any indictment secret- although that's possible under Rule 6: http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule6.htm

A couple of things on grand juries for folks:

A quick FAQ:

http://www.abanet.org/media/faqjury.html

Some NPR stuff- including a federal handbook for jurors:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4975837

[aquart]

27. The jury wouldn't know a thing about meetings with lawyers.

Not a thing. So that information wasn't from the jury which is legally bound to keep its mouth shut and I'll bet money hasn't said a word to anyone.

Lawyers, however, are free to yak. So are defendants. So are the people they yak to.

The info is that ROVE told people, and that FITZ, who never leaks, spent time with LUSKIN AND ROVE'S OTHER LAWYERS. LUSKIN, we know, is a sieve.

So, our possible sources are people who know ROVE, people who know the people who know Rove, and lawyers, and maybe their support staff.

The jury simply isn't involved as a source here. This isn't their knowledge.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

29. Who said it was?

It's nothing but some kind of odd story that's being circulated - so far as I can tell - in a very small venue, and people are getting very excited about it.

Right now, the only real fact anyone has is that no one knows anything and no indictment has been handed down.

No one knows anything.

I have no idea what your post was about, by the way. Sorry.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. LOL. Incredible.

[Maddy McCall]

37. And Leopold is the only person who knows people who know people...

who know Rove, right?

That's what we're supposed to believe?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

30. No, what's hilarious are the number of posters that either misread....

...the articles of others, or wish that the information in the article were somehow not true.

Good luck with YOUR fantasy, okay?

[Maddy McCall]

40. You are accusing people of misreading the article? LOL!

I want Rove to be indicted. Badly.

But I'm not going to lose my ability to think critically, just because one journalist says he's been indicted.

Aren't you the one who said that Rove has 24 hours "to respond?"

Who was it that you said is misreading the article? Looks like you didn't get beyond the title.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1180791&mesg_id=1180849

[Freedom_Aflaim]

39. Yea that 15 hour meeting part doesnt ring true to me

15 hours to present a charge?

It just doesnt take that long to present a charge, and if the prosecutor is ALREADY dealing, and for 15 hours, well that would be a huge indicator of weakness of the case (which I don't believe)

It may very well be that the 15 hour meeting is just flatout wrong and the rest of the story is true..but imo it doesnt bold well for the accuracy of the rest of the story.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

57. Hold on

Keep this in mind: a prosecutor doesn't go to defense counsel's office.

Ever.

Defense counsel comes to the prosecutor. That's how it works, that's how it has always worked.

Yeah, Patrick Fitzgerald spending fifteen hours doing what?

Explaining an indictment to defense counsel?

Sure. Right.

Indictments are announced, and that's that. No big mystery, folks.

Fifteen hour meeting. Ha.

[DancingBear]

8. I say it comes from my head

And I'm a schizophrenic.

I am not.

So there.

(On a serious note, I honestly think he will indict, and quite soon. Call it tea leaves...)

[HereSince1628]

10. Hey Leftie, hang on a minute...must the GJ hand up all indictments

in a courtroom?

I just can't imagine Fitz' GJ not being noticed by the denisons of the courthouse as it assembled in a courtroom. Consequently, I can't imagine how an indictment would have been handed up anytime in the past 3 weeks.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

12. Who said "courtroom"?

Grand juries don't sit in courtrooms.

[HereSince1628]

24. I know, but somewhere in the past week I read that once a GJ

votes to return an indictment that then they go to a courtroom to hand it up to the judge. I'm trying to understand the choreography. What's involved in getting the indictment from the GJ to a judge?

[sandnsea]

32. If it was sealed yesterday

Then the arrest may not be made until next week, for whatever reasons.

[Maddy McCall]

3. The only DUers who are being logical are questioning...

the parts of the article that don't make sense, instead of running headlong to the liquor store to buy margarita mix.

Logic doesn't require trust. The Leopold article does.

[DS1]

7. Margarita mix?

GDers drink it straight, baby!

[HereSince1628]

5. Yer gonna be flame bait for trying to be reasonable, you know that

right?

[DS1]

6. What are you talking about?

They've already launched him ( in the customized Space Shuttles painted black with missile kits ) to the ISS2 ( also painted black, also with missiles ) so he can control the weather in order to stymie Democratic voters from voting on election night because of the 5 feet of snow that fall only in highly contested areas, meanwhile his cloned replacement has left the Scientology compound ( Katie was told she died of SIDS ) and has been put on a top-secret NSA/CIA/DIA/WTF program of accelerated growth and education, and by tomorrow she'll be a porky 45 year old balding man only able to answer simple yes or no questions.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:

[Maddy McCall]

21. .

God, you're good.

:rofl:

[SOteric]

51. It frightens me how well you do that.

[rox63]

11. Fitz will make it officially public

when he's damn good and ready. The indictment is sealed until he announces it at a news conference. We'll all just have to be patient. I know it's tough, but that's how it's supposed to be done. This will be all over the news soon enough.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

13. What indictment?

The only true thing right now - the only fact on which anyone can count - is that no one knows anything.

So far, there's no indictment.

That's all, folks.

[speedoo]

22. "no one knows anything.... so far there's no indictment....

that's all, folks."

Anyone else notice the oxymoronish (is that a word?) nature of this post?

Or would you want to revise your wording, Lefty?

(for someone who speaks with such certainty, I found your comment that no one knows anything to be a little curious)

[OldLeftieLawyer]

25. Impressive

Simple English confounds some people.

That's always entertaining.

Thanks for the laugh.

[speedoo]

26. Unimpressive.

I know your response to me was sarcastic, but I'll be more direct with you. In my opinion, your posts in this thread are pompous and completely unimpressive.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

28. Sarcastic? Not at all

A simple statement of fact and opinion on my part. You clearly don't agree. That is your right.

So sorry that you feel the need to insult me, but if it makes you feel better, then I'm glad for you.

Welcome to IgnoreLand. You're rude, so you're gone.

[sandnsea]

33. Some people know things

You don't though, that's for sure. Including the fact that you don't know that there's no indictment.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

35. You're right

I know that there's no indictment.

And, if you honestly think that Patrick Fitzgerald, who built his reputation on running a tight ship, will let it slip out of his control at this point, you are missing what has been going on in Washington for the past - what? - couple of years.

There is no news.

There is no indictment.

That's reality.

"Some people know things." HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA!!!!

That was rich. Thanks.

[sandnsea]

46. This is what he did with Libby

Libby knew he was going to be indicted before it actually happened. Why wouldn't the same thing be done with Rove? He's informed the White House that the indictment's coming, it appears to have come and is currently under seal. Nothing has come out of Fitzgerald's office. Sounds like everything's on course from what I've observed of Fitzgerald's style.

But the main point is, you don't know that there's no indictment. You can't know that. Pretending that you do know makes you exactly like those you accuse of speculation. You're pulling stuff completely out of your ass, with no sources whatsoever.

[MelissaB]

14. Did somebody say this is being covered up, Fitz won't announce it or

have a press conference, or filings won't appear on his site? :shrug:

[WilliamPitt]

15. "Sealed Indictment"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1180868

[joemurphy]

20. When did this sealed indictment get handed down?

And there's no mention of it in the Leopold article.

It'd be nice if it's true, I guess. But Maddie and Leftie are right, we should just sit tight and wait. All this "Fitzmasing" is silly until it's all a done deal.

[Maddy McCall]

31. It's purposefully vague. The title does say that Rove HAS been indicted.

If Rove is indicted next week, then Leopold can claim victory. Except for that little problem with the headline, because the headline says that Rove has been indicted--and if the papers are dated May 18th, then Leopold only predicted what any DUer could predict--that Rove would be indicted soon.

If the supposedly sealed indictment is dated any date after May 12, then Leopold's story is wrong.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

36. Let's play

If an indictment really has been handed down, why wouldn't it have been announced immediately?

Hmmmmm?

[joemurphy]

38. OK, I'm in a playful mood too.

I'm inclined to agree. Sealed or unsealed, it would have been logged in in the Clerk's records, right? That's the way things ordinarily work. If it's a Federal Court, the records are computerized for everybody to check. You know, the public's right to know and all that. Seem's like we'd have heard if something had been filed.

Maybe Leopold got something wrong.

Anyway, to continue with play, suppose something like this went on between Leopold and his source:

*Telephone Rings* Briinnnnng.

Jason: Hello?

Source: Jason! It's me! Deep Maw! Big news! Fitz has indicted Rove!

Jason: What? Wow! Tell me more!

Source: Er, can't right now. Fitz is in the bathroom. He'll be out in a second. I just heard the toilet flush. Gotta hang up!

Jason: Wait! When's all this gonna happen?

Source: It's already in the pipeline! Gotta go! Bye!

*Click*

Jason: Wait! Maw! Damn!

And the story goes from there.

[OldLeftieLawyer]

41. Yep

That's pretty much how I figured it went down.

(You're very good ............ thanks for the BIG laugh over here)

[Maddy McCall]

44. HAHAHA!

:rofl:

[WilliamPitt]

45. Bookmarked.

[Maddy McCall]

42. Could it be...

because the contents of the indictment are sealed, but information that Rove was indicted would surely be announced, because an indictment would be recorded?

Could that be it?

[OldLeftieLawyer]

47. Why was it sealed?

See, people learn a phrase, not knowing exactly what it means or its history, and then it becomes part of the lexicon, as if it were appropriate. Thus, we have "sealed" indictment, without a clue as to its purpose.

Why would an indictment at this point be sealed?

No one knows. No one can answer that question.

Because no one knows anything.

[sandnsea]

49. including you

It really doesn't matter why an indictment might be sealed, there's lots of reasons. The fact is, it could be, and nobody would know until someone was arrested. Nobody knows whether the Truthout story is right or wrong, including you.

(4) Sealed Indictment.

The magistrate judge to whom an indictment is returned may direct that the indictment be kept secret until the defendant is in custody or has been released pending trial. The clerk must then seal the indictment, and no person may disclose the indictment's existence except as necessary to issue or execute a warrant or summons.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/frcrmp/Rule6.htm

[joemurphy]

50. True. Nobody knows. But...

the fact that a sealed document was filed with the Clerk is ordinarily logged into some kind of minute book that the Clerk keeps. That ordinarily shows up on the computerized docket report of the case. At least that's how it's done in Indiana.
Thus, the contents of the sealed envelope are not revealed until the Court deems such appropriate. But the fact that some kind of sealed document has been filed gets logged in.

With people all over this Grand Jury, I'm skeptical that Fitz's filing of some kind of sealed document with the Clerk wouldn't have gone unreported. But as you say, no one knows. Maybe things are handled differently in D.C. We'll probably know what's really going on on Monday. At least I hope so.

[sandnsea]

52. 18% DC Cases are secret/hidden

Completely. Even if the Rove case were recorded, there'd be no way to know it was that case, since it happens all the time in DC anyway.

http://www.rcfp.org/news/mag/30-1/_contents.html

[joemurphy]

54. Thanks for the website. Interesting (and alarming) reading.

Whether a Rove indictment would be "off the docket" seems unlikely to me. But, as you say, who knows? The article seems to say it hasn't happened much in terrorism-related matters. Mostly multi-defendant gang and conspiracy cases.

But on second thought, Rove and Libby are gangsters and conspiracy members, so, who knows?

I hope we find out soon. I want to see Rove walking out of courtrooms with a hat over his face as much as anyone here.

[sandnsea]

56. Yep, we just don't know... and so what anyway

It isn't like the mainstream media isn't ever wrong or anything.

[sheelz]

48. Or

he's playing catch-up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1902738#1902992

[bdamomma]

16. I just hope that truthout. org did not prematurely leak this

without true confirmation. I guess we have to wait for the official results.

[opihimoimoi]

43. Rumors have a way of coming TRUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[jazzjunkysue]

58. Something this big would not be containable until the formal press

conference. Too many people in the white house would know it's going on. Too many people in DC would see Fitz at the lawyer's office and would have known it was coming, and why.

It makes sense that this would all be taken care of before the media is allerted: The guy is, after all, a central member of the top cabinet, and so, they do need some time to surgically remove him from his working obligations before they unleash the press.

This is exactly how I would expect it all to be revealed.

Also, all of the grand jury behavior and Fitz's behavior fits the wind up to this indictment. If this were not happening, we would also be getting leaks that it was over. The white house would be telling repubs to say that it's not happening.

No one is touching this because it's toxic: Because he's going down and he's taking a few with him.

This is silent because it's real.

[opihimoimoi]

60. I canardly wait...huge imu fires standing by to roast them pigs

[RagAss]

53. I'm starting to think Rove leaked this.......

[helderheid]

55. popping open a bottle of the bubbly now!

[jazzjunkysue]

59. Here you go: