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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:07 AM
Original message
Scooter & His Discontents


On May 8, 2006, four documents were filed in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia, involving an important part of the trial of I. Lewis Libby. These all involve Team Libby's attempt to subpoena a wide range of information from journalists and corporate media sources. The four documents make strong cases for Judge Reggie Walton to "quash" (meaning to nullify, or to extinguish, summarily and completely) Team Libby's subpoenas.

The four documents were filed by lawyers representing Judith Miller; Matt Cooper; Andrea Mitchell and NBC News; and Time. Before we take a closer look at them, let's review what they are, in general terms. In this case, much like any public meeting or hearing, there is a benefit in having a formal structure. This is especially true when there are disputes being discussed. One of the ways that structure is given in parliamentary law is to have "points of order." There are literally hundreds of points of order, and those who master them tend to make the best attorneys and elected officials.

In the Libby case, people have likely picked up on a sequence in the documents that are being filed. One side files a Motion; the other side files a Response; and then the first side files a Reply. After the Reply, the judge might hold a hearing, or he might issue a ruling.

If he holds a hearing, it could be in open court, and thus become part of the public record. We've had this already in the pre-trial hearings where Team Libby and Mr. Fitzgerald openly debate issues. The most interesting thing that has come out thus far from these hearings was when Mr. Fitzgerald noted that Scooter had testified to the grand jury that both President Bush and VP Cheney had okayed his revealing the classified NIE to journalists.

The judge can also hold hearings "in camera," which is Latin for "in his chambers." There is usually a stenographer there recording the hearing. The judge can afterward decide if the hearing should be put on the public record, or if he should "seal" it due to information that is sensitive, or potentially damaging to a witness not on trial, or if that information could cause prejudice towards one side in the trial. In the documents filed, the journalists' attorneys have requested that if Judge Walton does decide to hold further hearings, that they be in camera.

Now to the interesting part! In March, Team, Libby issued subpoenas to a number of journalists and media corporations. They demanded a wide range of information, including notebooks, unpublished articles, telephone logs, etc. Team Libby stated that these things were needed to "attack the government's case and prove his innocence at trial."

This has created a conflict, because the rules involved for subpoenas involving potential witnesses, is very different from the rules involved in "discovery," when the defense is able to request access to the information that has been gathered by the prosecutor. In the recent past, I've discussed things like the Brady rule (from Brady v. Maryland), which was important in my friend Rubin Carter's appeals. "Discovery" is generally broad, allowing the defense access to information that is potentially helpful and/or harmful to their client's case.

Subpoenas like those Team Libby issued have to be far more specific. Let's look at a section of Miller's 4-18 Motion to get a better sense of this:

"In United States v Nixon, 418 U.S. 683 (1974), the Supreme Court adopted a multi-prong test for a district court assessing the propriety of a Rule 17(c) subpoena. Namely, the party issuing the subpoena must show:

(1) that the documents are evidentiary and relevant;
(2) that they are not otherwise procurable in advance of trial by exercise of due diligence;
(3) that the party can not otherwise properly prepare for trial without such production and inspection in advance of trial and that the failure to obtain such inspection may tend unreasonably to delay the trial; and
(4) that the application is made in good faith and is not intended as a general 'fishing expedition.'

"Id. at 699-700. Thus, the defendant 'must clear three hurdles: (1) relevancy; (2) admissibility; (3) specificity'." (page 3)

Let's see if Team Libby meets those requirements, or if they are engaged in a "fishing expedition." On page 6 of the Time document, they note that "(a)lthough Mr. Cooper is the only Time employee identified as a potential witness, Mr. Libby asserts that he is entitled to know what other reporters and editors at Time knew about the Wilsons on the theory that 'evidence that Ms. Wilson's CIA affiliation was known outside the intelligence community is critical to the defense.' ...But as Time pointed out in its motion, this theory has no stopping point." Not only does this fail in the sense that Scooter could, in theory, subpoena every blogger on earth, "just in case" they knew something about those darned Wilsons, but it is not relevant to the charges that Libby has to answer to.

Admissibility? Consider footnote 6, on page 4 of the Miller Reply: "Also, as we point out in our opening brief and which Mr. Libby does not contest, his requests are precluded by the Court's prior ruling that such information is immaterial to any claim of defense. (Mem.Op. of March 10, 2006 at n.3). The prior ruling constitutes the law of this case."

More, Libby claims he will use information that may be in various files "to show whether it is Mr. Libby or the reporters who have misstated or misrecollected the facts." He needs it to show that "it was Ms. Miller who raised this topic (Plame) in her discussions with Mr. Libby -- if the topic was raised at all." Miller's Reply notes, "To the extent Mr. Libby has specific information establishing the information he demands is relevant and admissible, it is incumbent upon him to present it to the Court now, in support of his subpoena. He makes no such attempt." (page 4)

Regarding specificity, the NBC Reply notes Libby's "case rests entirely on serial speculation -- i.e., if Ms. Mitchell knew about Ms. Wilson and her employment prior to July 11, and if Ms. Mitchell shared that information with Mr. Russert before he talked with Defendant, and if Mr. Russert then shared the same information with defendant, then her testimony 'would be important to the defense.' No link in this chain is supported by any document in the possession of NBC or Ms. Mitchell, and Defendant's speculation is refuted by the facts." (pages 4-5)

The four Replies show, without any question, that Team Libby is on a "fishing expedition." Consider two examples. First, they claim that Matt Cooper has a "pro-Wilson bias." They offer no evidence. More, they ignore that Cooper twice was willing to go to jail to protect his sources, until Libby and then Rove gave him permission to reveal the details of their conversations.

Second, footnote 3 on the Miller Reply states, "Mr. Libby claims that 'Movants admit' they have 'documents showing that and other officials talked to reporters about Mr. Wilson ... but never mentioned his wife ...' (Response at 7). Ms. Miller has made no such admission, and has not located any such documents."

Cooper's Reply addresses Team Libby's frequent claim of the "constitutional dimensions" of his case, specifically his need for using the subpoenas in such a wide-ranging manner. The Cooper document points out that Team Libby completely ignores the Amendment 1 issues involved in the case. The four documents combine to make a strong case for Judge Walton to quash the subpoenas, for a variety of reasons including protecting the integrity of a free press.

Time refers to Libby's demands as "speculative and absurd." They note that Team Libby's "farfetched conspiracy theory cannot justify Mr. Libby's subpoena(s)." I think they are right, and I am confident that Judge Walton will rule in their favor.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Comments?
Questions?
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
2. Fishing expedition...
Absolutely right

Judge Walton will not be fooled...
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 11:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oops!!
Am getting a kick out of the fact that JM, aka Miss Girl Run Amok, has stated that her original notebook has run amok and she can no longer find it. Libby can have the copies the prosecutor made, which he no doubt has, but it does "quash" Libby's hope of a circus of distraction fill with ink and handwriting experts. Team Libby would be well advised to spend their money on the case at hand rather than these fishing expeditions, for how far can a defense fund go?

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Scooter let Judith
sit in jail for almost three months. She holds grudges against co-workers for itty-bitty things. I'm sure that she holds feelings of resentment for Scooter.
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ItsTheMediaStupid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Team Libby seems a bit desperate here - Thanks for the update.
Edited on Wed May-10-06 12:09 PM by ItsTheMediaStupid
BTW, any word on Rove's indictment?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I've had the tv on
just in case something breaks today. I'm confident that the process is underway.
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I hope it breaks today or maybe tomorrow.
Fitzgerald can set his news conference for Friday and I just may take the day off!
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. "Everybody in Washington knew about Wilson's wife."
"She wasn't even under cover."

How many times have we heard these talking points (especially those of us who keep tabs on how Hannity and other Rove mouthpieces spin the story)?

So one would imagine that it would be easy to round up a bunch of people to say, "Sure, I knew, and my friends knew. It was common knowledge."

And yet, they need to issue subpoenas to see if they can find such people, rather than just looking in the phone book.

Fitzgerald, on the other hand, had investigators go to the homes of Plame's neighbors and interview them directly. None of them knew of her status as an agency operative.

So my question is: given the high-powered and -priced legal minds defending Libby, why are they pursuing this angle? Is it all they have?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. It's interesting
to speculate on why Team Libby is putting forth some strong and some weak motions. Part of it could be due to the team members working on the different parts of the defense. Part of it, of course, is because Mr. Fitzgerald has put them in check. These documents are from non-parties in the main event, but they surely indicate that Scooter is going to be convicted if this goes to trial.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #9
22. Some of it is also a big, fat time-wasting exercise
I think.

Is it also possible they know Scooter will be eventually charged with the "outing" so, perhaps, they're trying to do as much of the leg work ahead of time as they can? It's inappropriate and legally unnecessary for sure, but maybe they thought (wrongly) they'd find a friend in Walton?

I'm also now unsure about how much Scooter is willing to help KKKarl, et al., in procuring the possible damning evidence Fitz has collected -- which was one of my first suppositions. I think that now Scooter is only out to save Scooter.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Scooter
has got to feel lonely right now. Any person who faces substantial incareceration will come to feel isolated, even if he is meeting with a room ful of attorneys. Scooter was up for a "fight" against the Wilsons, because he thought he could be underhanded and vicious. Remember how he called Joseph Wilson "that asshole playboy." Scooter hated Wilson. But he fears Fitzgerald.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. And I love that he fears him.
Fitz couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch, eh?

It was such a positive shift in The Force when Comey appointed Fitzgerald (and, also, IMO, Comey's first class ticket to heaven). No one saw it coming, and Ashcroft's role was the lynch pin of the whole sordid plan. "Instant karma’s gonna get you..."

Ah, life. :)

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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #24
39. !
*shadow government*
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
8. The 4 documents certainly crystallize the fishing expedition, kitchen
sink strategy of the Libby defense team. They bring out, in ever more glaring terms, how weak the Libby defense is regarding the actual charges against him. There is little in their subpoenas, filings that directly relate to the charges of obstruction of justice (count 1), making false statements (counts 2 & 3) and perjury (counts 4 & 5).

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. It's almost as if
they are putting on a defense that is based on leaking Plame's name, rather than attending to the charges he actually faces.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes, that is certainly how I read it which is fascinating in itself
Why would a competent team do that, especially as obviously as this team has done in their filings? Only two possible reasons occur to me: One, they have NO defense against the actual charges, which is the more likely of the two? or: Two, they are expecting further charges down the road and are filing and serving subpoenas in advance of the possibility?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. I think it is
a combination of those two. Last week, I said on one of these threads that people should not be surprised if there is at least one more charge heading in Scooter's direction.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. That's my feeling as well, I am not sure Fitzgerald is finished with
Libby just yet given how the Illinois investigation and subsequent charges developed over time.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. That Has Been My Question Too
Surely, behind closed doors. they must be embarrassed by such a weak defense and strategy.

*shadow government*
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Mist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. Thanks for this cogent summing up, H2O Man! I have neither the
legal knowledge or patience to wend my way through the thickets of Team Libby's legal machinations, so I appreciate it enormously when someone else does! I've always been under the impression that Libby's lawyers are simply muddying the waters for lack of any better strategy. Fortunately, Fitz and the judge seem quite able to see through what seem to be desperate measures...

I, too, am hoping we'll hear something today, or at least this week.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. It's fun just to see
the defense being linked to the cases involving Nixon, Haldeman, Noriega, Liddy, LaRouche and Poindexter.
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itzamirakul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #14
47. I have become so damned cynical regarding ever seeing ANY of these
liars charged with ANY of the blatantly obvious crimes they have committed.

After reading your great summary (thanks for that!)I once again thought, "Yeah, they just want to see how to spin more lies!" Those lawyers would take lines from journalist's notebooks and put them together in a totally new script to exonerate Scooter.

What makes me so angry is just how damned OBVIOUS these crimes and lies have been over the past 6 years, and how unconcerned our Democratic politicians and citizens have been. Why aren't there speakers out on the corners? Small, but visible and audible demonstrations EVERY DAY?

With Bush already having such low poll numbers, why do you think he doesn't just pardon Libby or even just end the entire investigation as he did re 9/11? ala Nixon firing the chief investigator?
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:18 PM
Response to Original message
13. when you fish...
you pick a sweet spot. You troll around awhile, pick the right eddy, taste the air, bait the hook, and drop a line. Unless of course you're a corporate whore, then you take the biggest, meanest tank on the water, cast a net the size of Rhode Island, sieve the sea, and throw out what you don't want from the catch. Looks like they're going for the corporate approach. Aren't these high priced attorneys? I woulda thought they'd have put more thought into the "expedition"... had they narrowed the subpoenas to specific dates and references and only the reporters that they knew might have something they wanted, they'd have had a better shot at actually stalling this process. Really, i think, they were just trying to stall the inevitable.

Happy days ahead!



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Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
15. not being too good with legal matters, but preferring
an overall intuitive approach, I would say it looks like Libby is trying to continue with his original plan which was to spread information on Plame far and wide, and then make it look like everyone else knew and he just learned it from them. My advice to him would be to find a foreign country that would harbor him.

:evilgrin:
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:24 PM
Response to Original message
17. Is fishing the official Bush administration success marker?
Edited on Wed May-10-06 12:28 PM by Pithy Cherub
Libby's carp fishing as a bottom dweller should, but it doesn't help him or his defense in the least. Bush says the best moment of his presidency was catching a fish. Libby is emulating his former boss and channeling the other one by cherry picking the facts to fit his defense as he "sees" it.

Scooter's defense rests within himself. Defense Team Libby keeps baiting the wrong hook. The Judge keeps saying none of that is what this case is about. At this point, the Judge is due for an even harsher smackdown of Team Libby which this early in the process is not good.

My Sincere Advice to Libby: Stop fishing in a dry pond. Quickly buy a white flag and wave it energetically and directly in Fitzgerald's sight. Send up an SOS flare and throw himself on the Mercy of the Court.

Excellent H20 Man! More please! :popcorn:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. The Little Man & the Sea ....
Scooter's huge adventure is ending up a pile of bones that he lugs with him. He needs to take the only alternative left to him : turn on his boss.
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Scooter truly is dangerously playing both ends against the middle.
Who is lobbying for his pardon? Team Libby sure has a curiouser and curiouser mix of attorneys. Pardons are traditionally done during the Holidays and that would be right after the 2006 elections. Meanwhile, his avenue of offering up Cheney is shrinking - others may be in a position to give him up first. It is almost as if Scooter is saying he will only deal Cheney if he doesn't get any jail time - and Fitz has already said Hell No.

Those bones are getting heavier and heavier.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. MeThinks He Is Being Too Clever By Half
Those who play dangerous games often end up being the ones who get hurt the most.

*shadow government*
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:25 PM
Response to Original message
18. It reeks of desperation
It sounds like they're trying to throw whatever they can grap into the works to foul them, this will be swatted away and scooter will be meeting his new playmate in federal custody before long.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. For people who would like to read more
Edited on Wed May-10-06 12:30 PM by stop the bleeding
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Thank you, stop the bleeding, for providing such an invaluable
resource for us, it is much appreciated.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. I found another one see here:
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Thank you! I saw reference to that filing and wondered about it n/t
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #30
40. dupe - oops
Edited on Thu May-11-06 07:17 AM by stop the bleeding
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. Thanks! That must be the one referred to in the Cooper filing
where Matthew Cooper "adopts as his own the arguments made by Time Inc.".
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Cooper's is a 2 pager and TIME's is a 14 pager as far as I can remember
I know that you know this, but I like keeping these lesson's from H2O Man on the radar for people who need a good explained thoughts on this subject.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Team Libby's
response tried to discredit Cooper, because he relied upon some of the points made in Times' motion to quash.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #30
41. I also found one for TIME mag
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Good Find
*shadow government*
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northamericancitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 02:20 PM
Response to Original message
31. Dry facts are difficult to digest and demand infinite patience to gather.
You have my respects and admiration for being so committed to the restoring of Justice in America.

Thank you for taking the time to explain the (on going and future) procedures leading slowly but surely to the indictment of the bushco's.

Even thou I always bookmarked your posts, when it concerns fastidious procedures, I am often (intellectually) too lazy to read more than the first and last paragraph. Guilty as charged. lol

lise
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Ximines-MN Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 03:27 PM
Response to Original message
32. This will drag on forever...
Sorry to be negative, but once the trial court judge rules in favor of Fitzgerald's discovery motion, and - indeed - once Libby is ultimately convicted (probably in mid-2007), the GOP hacks will fan out to smear the trial court judge as being biased and liberal.

Then the case will come up on appeal a year later (mid- to late 2008), at which time each member of the appellate court will be evaluated -- publicly -- for their credentials as either a democrat of a republican. You know, who have they contributed to, where have they spoken, etc. Assuming this appeal goes against Libby (and assuming Bush hasn't pardoned him yet on his way out of office), Libby will then argue for a re-hearing, before the entire Federal Court of Appeals (an en banc review). Once that happens, and again assuming the court rules against Libby, and again assuming that Libby has not yet been pardoned, we'll move on the Supreme Court... And we know how much integrity there is on the Supreme Court (think Bush vs. Gore). Perhaps they'll come up with a "we are at war" exception, and stamp the ruling in the case "not for stare decisis", i.e., "for this time only" (again, think Bush vs. Gore).

No, the only way this can turn out well for the dems is if the public starts getting the story presented in a way that properly holds the republicans up for public ridicule and scorn (again, think of the 24 hour breathless coverage of every single Clinton allegation: e.g., Vince Foster, Travelgate, Paula Jones, etc.). Making republicans into a laughing stock, then throwing them out of office is the only way to stop this band of thugs.

The most important thing is for the story to retain its 'legs'. A Karl Rove indictment would help in this regard...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Well, with Bush at 87% approval,
I might agree. But, he's in the Nixon range. Cheney's approval ratings are deader than Kelsey's balls. Things are going exactly as they should, in my opinion. I respect that others have the right to their own opinion, but it's pretty hard for me to see the Plame scandal as not severely damaging for the administration.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Kelsey?
Is he a leaker too?

*shadow government*
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Trivial pursuit:
Who can place Kelsey in the proper context?
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. A great deal of damage has already occurred, largely behind closed doors.
We have been having Fitzmas all along.
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NewJeffCT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-11-06 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #32
46. The entire Federal Court of Appeals
is overwhelmingly Republican. I believe the Democrats have the majority in a mere one court, the infamous 9th circuit. There were 2 that were even, but the other 10 or so are Republican majority. And, the two that were even may have changed by now, as I have not seen an updated number since last summer.

The Republicans have no shame - they have smeared Reagan appointees as being liberals. Anybody that doesn't toe the party line 100% is suspect to them - look at John McCain... his actual positions are very conservative for the most part, but his image is that of a moderate because he has occasionally gone against Bush and has gotten smeared for it.

I agree that we need to present a consistent message - but, Democrats are not nearly as good as Republicans at following Talking Points... and the media loves to give a platform to Democrats who don't always toe the party line.
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cassiepriam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-10-06 04:13 PM
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33. The aspens are turning, but not together looks like. nt
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