the power of the presidency exists only in perception.

[mopinko]

i had the privilege and deep pleasure of attending a town hall meeting with jack murtha and jan schakowsy on sunday. if you have not had that privilege, and you have a good congressman, ask them to host one. murtha is on a mission, and he will do this in any congressional district that will have him. it will give you hope. not only jack murtha, but the folks that will come out to that meeting, will confirm for you that you are not alone. the place was packed with folks who understood about signing statements, and va cuts, and phony intel. it was so great.
he talked for an hour, only checking his notes to talk about the old, one week of war could have brought a brazzilion vaccinations type of comparisons. he told story after story about soldiers, not about those spunky fellows fighting back at walter reed, but about those in jail, those that murdered their wives, those that will never be the same. both his compassion and his disgust were palpable.

but the thing that he pounded on, and the thing that i want to relay to all of you is this-
the office of the president is a bully pulpit and no more. power is vested in the congress, and the president accomplishes only what the congress enables him to accomplish. it is the job of the congress to send soldiers to war, and it is the job of the congress to bring them home again. for him, november is about not impeachment, not subpoena power, not investigation, but about a dem majority to bring the troops home.
don't miss the chance, if he comes to your district.

[uppityperson]

1. Very good points, k&r

[CrazyOrangeCat]

2. Thanks for the post.

Very cool that you got to go--he is really standing up for the soldiers. Something the chickenhawks will never bother doing.

[mopinko]

5. he was pretty hard on the pretenders to the 2008 throne

from his own party, as well.

[Stinky The Clown]

7. Can you expand on this point?

I'm interested in his take on the various hopefuls and pretenders on our side. I've not ever heard his views on this.

[mopinko]

8. a couple of comments.

he said that some of the likely candidates had contacted him, regarding his proposal to withdraw and redeploy.
one senator, he said, had come to him, and said that his proposal was just like murtha's. just a couple of small whereases, and clauses different is all. can i join you? aren't we saying the same thing?
no. what i am saying is very simple. we cannot win. it is time to go. if what you are saying is not simple, then we are not saying the same thing. period.
another senator, whose gender would not be disclosed, he said, called to say that s/he agreed with him completely. it was a mess, we need to get out asap. only trouble is, it is so complicated, and we have no power, and the media is against us, and they have all the cards, and.... to which he replied, :shrug: well, here is your chance to prove you can lead.

[Stinky The Clown]

9. I'll assume that he, like you, didn't mention the names of the guilty?

:)

Leaving me, like you, to guess and rankly speculate?

Thanks for those comments. I like this guy more each day. The embodiment of saying what you mean, meaning what you say, and standing by one's convictions.

[mopinko]

10. no, he did not say.

we did not wonder too much, tho. it was clear that the latter was hillary, and i assumed the former was kerry. he was just exasperated.
if you get a chance, see him. if you are wondering where if any dems tell the truth, you will get your answer.
and it was great to see the obvious affection he has for my rep. big hugs, and clear agreement.

[peacebird]

3. k&r

[patrice]

4. We need them at Home to implement Homeland Security.

Now!

[mopinko]

6. he also basically said-

[ginnyinWI]

11. That is such an important point!

I've been telling people the same: it's not about impeachment--it's about getting majorities in the House and Senate and then stopping the Bushies in their tracks.

Investigate what they've been doing and roll back their "initiatives" such as torturing prisoners and spying illegally. Hold them accountable for what they've done, and they'll wish * would be impeached so they can get the hell out.

[mopinko]

12. chicken-egg

i think we should be pushing state level impeachment, any impeachment, to pull the carpet of legitimacy out from under these fuckers. and pound election integrity, too.
i think that it might prevent war on iran if impeachment resolutions were introduced in a dozen states. even if they all end up stuck in committee, like ours is. it is the kind of drip, drip, drip that emboldens our friends, and frightens our enemies.
and i just gotta say- the question hangs in the air- will we impeach if we win? everybody is asking. so, why does that question hang out there? hmm?

[ginnyinWI]

18. but the impeachment question scares some people

And people like Ken Mehlman are doing the scaring. They want what's left of their base to come out and vote to stop it--and even some who disapprove of * now might not want the country to go through a big legal fight about it.

I think far more people want to see the Congress to get its act together and start getting something done, so that's the best thing Dems should run on. And as Pelosi said, you never know where investigations might lead. ;) But let's keep the focus on what the Dems will do about cleaning up the Congress and getting it back on track.

Impeachment takes a long, long time. The chimp only would have two more years after January of next year anyway, so the real benefit of throwing him out a few months early won't affect much. But strident measures from a Dem Congress starting in January 2007 really would.

[mopinko]

20. torture scares people, war crimes scare people

global warming scares people. impeachment? if it isn't an impeachable offense, you won't be removed from office. bill proved that.
a vigorous grassroots movement to impeach will help the current destabilization. i understand the reluctance of incumbents to run on the issue, but i think many are willing to follow if the people really lead. it is a credible threat that perhaps * is to insane to appreciate, but there are those around him who are still in their right minds, whose hand might be stayed by the smell of burning torches.

[mopinko]

13. morning

:kick:

[aikoaiko]

14. true, but congress always has trouble leading.

because of the many voices and constituencies.

[mopinko]

15. he was trying to say

that when the people completely turn on bush, the congress will follow. he illustrated his point by reminding us that nixon was re-elected with a huge margin, but left in disgrace months later.
like many of our congressional dems, you could see he is dying to impeach, but sees no good way to talk about it.
i, personally, believe that state level actions in many states would embolden sane republicans, if there are any, to come out, and at least stand up to war on iran.

[mopinko]

16. mentioned in another thread, the army is broken.

another button i think jack murtha would agree with...

[davekriss]

17. Power is vested in We the People

You say

...but the thing that he pounded on, and the thing that i want to relay to all of you is this-
the office of the president is a bully pulpit and no more. power is vested in the congress, and the president accomplishes only what the congress enables him to accomplish. it is the job of the congress to send soldiers to war, and it is the job of the congress to bring them home again. for him, november is about not impeachment, not subpoena power, not investigation, but about a dem majority to bring the troops home.

Take this a step further: Power is vested in the People, and Congress accomplishes only what the People enable them to accomplish. That fact is what scares our ruling elites most, which is why they've endeavored to turn us into consumerist spectators from the days of Bernays and Lippman, to Atwater and Rove, leaving the job of policy making and governance to them.

The troops will come home when We hit the streets. In numbers, ala Vietnam. February 15 (2003) should be a monthly occurence.

[mopinko]

21. or

do it with law. do it with the organs of government that are available. local impeachment resolutions. jefferson's rule 603. law suits. and election watching.

[davekriss]

23. I agree with that !

But let's effect both. From an old listserver I used to use:

"Get off the internet; I'll see you in the streets!"

There's wisdom in that. All of us must get active, using all channels available to us, from direct action to LTTE to even just holding firm to truth at the watercooler at work. All channels need to be filled with our insistence that this theft of democracy be stopped and reversed.

[mopinko]

24. state assemblies can be accessible

i think a lot of good people are starting their careers
in state houses, and a lot of people are stuck their because they cannot compromise, or keep their mouths shut. or it least, it was that way once in illinois. we have our resolution stuck in rules. but there is a lot of action that can happen around it anyway. we are looking for sponsors, and i talked to my deaniac alderman about dragging up his stalled resolution to amend it to refer to the state level articles.
i know this is mostly dog and pony shows, but if murtha is correct, and we keep pushing, * will be toppled. what we get after that is the biggest problem, but i am for a nuremburg style impeachment, with a dozen of these nazi's in the dock.

[Rhiannon12866]

19. Thank you. K&R.

It's important that someone with the knowledge and experience of Jack Murtha is getting the message out there. We all need to listen to what he has to say. I've seen him on the news shows. He's right on message and won't back down or be intimidated. We need more like Jack Murtha, but he's quite good enough on his own, an army of one.:yourock:

[mopinko]

22. ask your congress critter to invite him out. he will come.

it's now his mission.

[Rhiannon12866]

26. My congress critter, I'm afraid, was part of the Republican effort which

went to Florida, in 2000, in support of the Bush* stolen election. He hears from me often, and advocates for animal protection legislation and environmental protections, which I support, but I can never forgive him for what he did in 2000. I've never voted for the guy and hope he is defeated in November, a long shot, but increasingly possible. So I know that he'd never invite Jack Murtha here. You were lucky. So I'll just have to wait or read his remarks on DU. But thank you. I still have hope that Jack Murtha can get the message out. He's that determined and I admire him, and his courage, greatly.

Rhiannon :hi:

[mopinko]

28. my condolences

if it gets much worse, i think he will start coming to city council meetings.

[Rhiannon12866]

31. Thanks for the sympathy. My town council is also comprised of Republicans.

But they are fairly benighted, aren't really aware that there's another party in this state, so they may go along with it, and would probably take you up on your offer.:silly:

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. But Homeland Security take their orders from him

and that gives him significant power. This also ties into his "presidential signing statements" - for Congress to regain power, they will need to prosecute someone for following the president's orders, rather than what the law says.

[mopinko]

27. homeland security is closed if the congress says so.

so is everything else, if the congress says so. idiots in the way not withstanding, that is the law. signing statements are just hot air, if the congress says so.
but the congress also needs the people, needs the people to say hell no.

[mopinko]

29. one more thing jack murtha and i agree on-

his words to this effect were one of the biggest applause lines of the speech.

[mopinko]

30. thom hartman just reminded me of one more for ya

although i gotta say, i hope that someone puts a dvd together of some of these appearances. they were taping this one, and i'm sure that a lot of places do. cuz he just went on and on saying things that were music to my ears.

but, hartman was just talking about october surprises- murtha said-
just watch, * will say- the iraqi army is ready to "stand up", and there will be a drawdown of forces. he mentioned a number, but i do not remember is. 20k, something like that. he just shook his head as he said this, because it is obviously going to get a lot of soldiers killed.