The face of Bush's fascism got personal for me today

[Jack Rabbit]

In church today, an elderly lady came forward to announce that her husband, who was not present, found out last week that he is on the terror watch list. The congregation's response was somewhere between horror and bemusement. First, there was an audible gasp usually reserved for news that a member of the congregation had been suddenly taken seriously ill; then there was scattered laughter taken at the utter absurdity that this man could be thought a terrorist by any one but a complete idiot.

The gentleman is nearly 70 years old. He is a college professor well known and widely respected in his field, which is related to earth science. He and his wife are politically active and have traveled the world in support of causes such as UNESCO. They are active in our church and well liked.

Said another member of the congregation, "This would be a better world if we had more terrorists like him."

He is attempting to get off the active list of terrorists, but was told he will remain on the inactive list and there is no way to be removed from that.

Calling Iraq, which had nothing to do with the September 11 attacks, the "central front in the war on terror" is simply ridiculous in itself. This, however, is simply incredible. How can any one, knowing something like this, take seriously anything the Bush junta says or does about the phony war on terror they claim to be fighting? Being called a terrorist by Bush means about as much as being called an agent of the international Communist conspiracy by the John Birch Society.

I have been saying for five years that the Bush regime is inept, crooked and has a dangerous tendency to authoritarianism and even totalitarianism. Today, the grotesque follies of the Bush regime became a little less tolerable. They say things like this make us safer? We'll be safer when they are out of power behind bars in The Hague.

Let's hope that some day, after the neoconservatives are in a safe place in The Hague, that instead of keeping people such as this fine gentleman on a terror watch list, the watch list itself will be abolished and men such as the professor will be given an official public apology.

[MadMaddie]

1. This is happening more and more....and there are no true checks

and balances with this secretive spy organization....

It seems to me Americans should be asking why there are more ordinary Americans on the list than actual foreign terrorist? How man Dem senators and Congressman are on this list?

I hope the members in your church share the word like you have and let people know of this activity....

[Disturbed]

4. Is America a Neo Fascist Police State?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[shadowknows69]

6. Bingo

Has been for quite sometime now I suspect. They're just getting bolder about it.

[villager]

40. any other rhetorical questions you want to throw at us?

}(

[Joe Chi Minh]

78. By their fruit you shall know them.

[adigal]

28. I am starting to think many Dem senators and congresspeople

are in on it, or at least complicit because they should be shouting about this stuff from the steps of the Capitol building every single day, holding press conferences, telling Americans what is going on, but they are not. They are silent of these most important of issues, taking away our civil liberties. They are silent about the corporate-controlled media. Hey, as long as Hillary gets her millions to run for President, and Schumer gets his millions to run for Congress again, why should they give a damn if your friend is on the list. They don't.

Now Howard - Howard Dean would care. Russ Feingold would care. John Edwards, Al Gore would care.

So how can these others not be involved???

[dailykoff]

35. Ted Kennedy was on the no-fly list

and he held a couple of press conferences to talk about it. There's only so much one guy can do.

[adigal]

69. Kennedy is not one I would ever consider

would be on it - he has spent 40 years fighting for the poor and civil rights.

[Jack Rabbit]

71. Just so that doubters will not think that's an idle rumor . . .

From The Washington Post
Dated August 20, 2004

Sen. Kennedy Flagged by No-Fly List
Sara Kehaulani Goo
Washington Post Staff Writer

U.S. Sen. Edward M. "Ted" Kennedy said yesterday that he was stopped and questioned at airports on the East Coast five times in March because his name appeared on the government's secret "no-fly" list.

Federal air security officials said the initial error that led to scrutiny of the Massachusetts Democrat should not have happened even though they recognize that the no-fly list is imperfect. But privately they acknowledged being embarrassed that it took the senator and his staff more than three weeks to get his name removed.

A senior administration official, who spoke on condition he not be identified, said Kennedy was stopped because the name "T. Kennedy" has been used as an alias by someone on the list of terrorist suspects.

While he worked to clear himself, Kennedy kept having to wait in terminals at Reagan National, Boston's Logan International and at least one other airport, his staff said. All of the flights were on US Airways. When the senator checked in at the counter, airline employees told him they could not issue him a boarding pass because he appeared on the list. Kennedy was delayed until a supervisor could be summoned to identify him and give approval for him to board the plane.

Read more.

[DaveColorado]

52. Bush considers scientists terrorists

[lebkuchen]

66. Michael Hayden, spy overseer, says we don't have anything to worry about.

If Hayden says it, it must be true, right?


:sarcasm:

[babylonsister]

2. That list is scary because who knows who's putting it together, and

for what reasons? It's another affront to our civil liberties.
I'm posting this thread to show you how far it's advancing, though I suspect you already know:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1123024

[Faygo Kid]

3. My ex father in law just died; retired professor and another "terrorist"

I have this very bad feeling that the terrorist list is long indeed - and this wonderful American who just died was likely on the list. Maybe me. Maybe you. Look out; W. is becoming more dangerous as he is squeezed.

[Arkansas Granny]

8. Yes, his danger increases along with his desperation.

[dailykoff]

5. Amen to your last point.

What have we become, Stalinist Russia? The whole no-fly list, terror watch list NSA airport "security" apparatus is nothing but a propaganda / intimidation tactic, and that's just the tip of the iceburg.

[Arkansas Granny]

7. So, let me get this straight. Even if he clears his name it will

remain on the inactive list just because his name was once on the active list, regardless that it was a mistake. Will he be allowed to fly, or will he be subjected to close scrutiny if he decides to fly? What is the effect on his daily life by being on the inactive terror watch list? Does he have any idea why his name was placed on this list? A story like this one just shows how inept this administration is.

:eyes:

[tsuki]

73. This has always been so. In Florida, my friend ran for School

Board under a reform platform. She was turned in to Child Abuse Hotline. It was entirely bogus, but she remains on the list for 50 years. It is the same for other complaints.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hubert Flottz]

11. Don't vote for any more Nazis then!

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hubert Flottz]

15. They're already running the country I think...

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hubert Flottz]

22. "is just not reasonable."

Give Bush another couple of years and another repub congress after November and watch it happen...

Where are your parents from? I might know them I've spent some time there.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hubert Flottz]

24. The truth hurts sometimes...

Where in the Black Forest? That's where I spent my time there.

[Webster Green]

36. That's absurd!

The disservice to those poor souls would be to not recognize the evil as it rears it's ugly head once again.

[proud2BlibKansan]

48. The regime running this country is killing people too

Give them time and don't try to stop them; they will catch up to the Nazis.

[dailykoff]

25. It's close. Ask the guys in Gitmo, Abu Ghraib,

or any of our other terrorist interrogation hell holes, that is if they're still breathing.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. You're right!

It took Hitler several more years of having power than the neocons have had to get to the numbers of dead he piled up, but the neocons are well on the way. Soon the old standard Nazi type "WHERE ARE YOUR PAPERS?" will be the question that everyone who walks down the streets will have to answer, if things keep going the direction they have been going.

[Jack Rabbit]

27. Mr. Fruiticetum

EDITED for my atrocious typing

You are correct in saying this does not compare. Since you have less than half a dozen posts, I'll let let in on what isn't much of a secret around here: I bristle whenever somebody tries to compare Bush to Hitler (which happens way too often).

The question is not whether Bush is a bad as Hitler. He clearly is not. The Nazis set a standard for evil that will remain in tact for a long time. Which means that one may not even approach that standard and still be evil.

Bush and his gang are bad enough.

And while Bush isn't that oppressive, his ideas of American government are still something the Founding Fathers would not recognize. Even Hamiltion, who advocated a strong executive, would have opposed Bush's disregard of Constitutional checks and balances.

As I said in the root post, he has dangerous tendencies to authoritarianism and even totalitarianism. I won't back down from that. His idea of executive power is that of a dictator limited only by 22nd Amendment and his ability to pass a plebiscite at four-year intervals.

[Hubert Flottz]

31. You splain it better than me Jack!

Good job. The point is someone doesn't have to be a crad carrying NAZI, to think and act like Nazis. It's scary when people like that are in charge of our country.

[Occulus]

67. And thanks to those such as yourself

we won't even see it coming because we'll be castigated for daring to hint at an inference of a comparison.

"And while Bush isn't that oppressive,"

That said it all, right there.

[arikara]

18. Maybe not true Nazi's

but lots of fascists are both running and in power.

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. Nazi is as Nazi does.

[iconoclastic cat]

20. Welcome to DU, Fruticetum!

:hi:

[adigal]

30. And another corporate puppet will be installed

just like Bush was installed, not elected.

[KC21304]

33. No one said he is a dictator for life.

But when he is able to usurp powers of the other branches of government he indeed is a dictator in my book.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

34. Got to love it when people continue to deny what's happening....

...under their nose. If, as you claim, your parents lived in Nazi Germany, you should know better.

How long did it take Hitler to gain total power?

The failed "Beer Hall Putsch" took place in 1923. He wrote "Mein Kampf" while in prison. The Nazis took political power in 1933, and Hitler was named Chancellor in 1934.

How long after he became Chancellor did Hitler and the Nazi leadership formalize the "Final Solution"?

The Nazis formalized the "Final Solution" in late 1941, almost eight years after he Hitler had been named Chancellor. Some of the Nazi concentration camps were redesignated as death camps, and the killing went into high gear.

How many more years before Nazi Germany was in total ruins and Hitler was dead?

It took four long years for WWII to reach the point of Hitler killing himself. By that time, Germany was in ruins.

How many years has Herr Busch been in power?

A little over five years.

You're welcome to your opinions, but let's see what happens between now and 2008.

[lvx35]

51. I agree totally.

All this stuff is happening, but hearing people call America a dictatorship with what seems almost like a sense of resignation is something I am getting sick of. Dictatorship is a state of mind, really. If the people are active and hopeful anything is possible.

[SmokingJacket]

64. Bush is not really the problem.

He's just a dim-witted frat boy with a fancy name that the republicans and neocons could use to get elected. If he AND all his buddies are out of power in 2009, then the problem will be solved. But if they manage to hold onto power with yet another sock puppet in office, we do have a major problem.

[SmokingJacket]

10. What is this list, and how does one know if one is on it?

Is this the no-fly list? Does it mean this man can't fly anywhere, or just that he gets strip-searched?

[Jack Rabbit]

14. Washington Post (February 15, 2006): 325,000 Names on Terrorism List

From The Washington Post
Dated Wednesday February 15

325,000 Names on Terrorism List
Rights Groups Say Database May Include Innocent People
By Walter Pincus and Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writers

The National Counterterrorism Center maintains a central repository of 325,000 names of international terrorism suspects or people who allegedly aid them, a number that has more than quadrupled since the fall of 2003, according to counterterrorism officials.

The list kept by the National Counterterrorism Center (NCTC) -- created in 2004 to be the primary U.S. terrorism intelligence agency -- contains a far greater number of international terrorism suspects and associated names in a single government database than has previously been disclosed. Because the same person may appear under different spellings or aliases, the true number of people is estimated to be more than 200,000, according to NCTC officials.

U.S. citizens make up "only a very, very small fraction" of that number, said an administration official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of his agency's policies. "The vast majority are non-U.S. persons and do not live in the U.S.," he added. An NCTC official refused to say how many on the list -- put together from reports supplied by the CIA, the FBI, the National Security Agency (NSA) and other agencies -- are U.S. citizens.

The NSA is a key provider of information for the NCTC database, although officials refused to say how many names on the list are linked to the agency's controversial domestic eavesdropping effort. Under the program, the NSA has conducted wiretaps on an unknown number of U.S. citizens without warrants.

Read more.

[SmokingJacket]

63. So it's a whole other list than the no-fly list...

but the lists share information. The man in the OP probably found out he was on it when he was prevented from flying.

This is totally absurd. When these guys get out of office, the ridiculousness and sheer badness of their actions will provide fodder for whole libraries of books...

[Disturbed]

17. "Bush will, guaranteed, be out of power..."

Maybe he will be. Maybe not. Will the NSA be out of power? Will the people behind the Neo Fascist Govt. that is now in power be out of power? Busholini is a Sock Puppet to the Neo Fascists and the so called Xtian Right. Will they just all die or give up their agendas?

[NeoConsSuck]

13. Some more background on the white house prick's policies:

The No-Fly List
Is a federal agency systematically harassing travelers for their political beliefs?

Consider the experience of John Dear, a 43-year-old Jesuit priest, member of the Catholic peace group Pax Christi and former executive director of the Fellowship of Reconciliation, an interfaith global peace organization. “I fly just about every week,” Dear says. “Since 9/11, I’ve been taken aside at the boarding gate every single time and searched and questioned.”

Others, like the Green Party’s Nancy Oden, have reported being detained by armed soldiers, or, like Green Party leader Doug Stuber, questioned by Secret Service agents, sometimes at such length that they missed their flights. In most cases, they ultimately were permitted to fly to their destinations.

But none of the people whose cases In These Times has examined had any history of violence that would suggest they might be a threat to airline safety. Indeed many, like Dear, are ardent pacifists. What they seem to share is opposition to the Bush administration’s war policies and its attack on civil liberties.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/27/02/feature3.shtml

[stevedeshazer]

16. I would be honored to make such a list

Nixon's "enemies list" and Daniel Schorr come to mind.

[Jack Rabbit]

21. That would be a more select group

This, like I said in the root post, is more like being called a Communist by the Birch Society during the Cold War. A Communist to them was any politician they didn't like, which included President Eisenhower.

At least most of those on the old White House enemies list were people who really didn't like Nixon.

ON EDIT

But, to your point, I'd feel honored to be in the professor's company, too.

[stevedeshazer]

29. To The Hague!

:toast:

That will be one fine day. I live for it.

[Jack Rabbit]

44. Home for retired neoconservatives

United Nations Prison, The Hague

[bigbrother05]

60. Concur

Once heard Nixon called a "left wing internationalist" on Let Freedom Ring, the JBS's dial up message service in the 70's. They didn't like his opening up to China. Used to call their number for laughs while at college, never thought the 60's-70's would be viewed as "simpler" times. You could still fight the system with a reasonable certainty you wouldn't be disappeared.

[American liberal]

32. It's called history repeating itself.

These same sorts of things were occurring left and right (no pun intended) during the McCarthy era. I would not be a bit surprised to find a dossier on me somewhere--and all I do is go to occasional demonstrations and post messages critical of the president and his cronies.

[Gregorian]

37. McCarthyism all over again.

Mr. Bush, have you no sense of decency?

[tridim]

38. Hmm.. "Earth Science"

Two words that most Repukes hate. Put them together and throw in a little activism and he's a tree hugging commie with terrorist intentions.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. K&R

BTW, Thanks for the heads up. Jack threads like this are important to drive home the reality of the calamity America is wrapped up in now. Lots of folks STILL don't have a clue about the neocons game.

[drduffy]

41. Maybe we could all ask to be placed on the terror list......

to make it truly meaningless.....

that would be non-violent protest

non-violent revolution

isn't that what is needed?

I'd even go first.

[Jack Rabbit]

46. Like everybody wearing a yellow Star of David

[Catrina]

77. Great idea! I was just thinking that ~ at least one member of every

family might suffice. How does one get on it? I remember reports of this about three years ago, that there would be lists and that 'suspect organizations' would be listed and their members. I was on a rightwing board at the time and asked 'what is a 'suspect organization'? I said this was very dangerous. They (naturally) called me a terrorist and traitor and said the usual 'if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about'.

If everyone is on it, it will point out how totally ridiculous it is. Maybe an armband or something, depicting membership of Neocon enemies lists, or solidarity with those who have been so abused by this administration.

This should be causing a huge uproar in the press, in Congress and on the streets, imo. They should be FORCED to release these lists and to explain why people are on them. I think it's intimidation. The people seem to be randomly chosen, no particular reason other than disagreeing with Bush. This is supposed to scare others, I bet.

And people say this is not similar to Nazi tactics?? Btw, to the poster who claimed his parents were in Germany during that infamous period, I know a woman who was a child in the '30s, two women actually, one was a bit older, and both say they are having nightmares about this administration because what's happening here is so similar.

However, I do believe it won't continue here, because people ARE making the comparison, and are speaking out and taking action against it. I wonder the poster above wants us not to raise an alarm bell? Isn't that why Hitler got so far in Germany, because people did not speak out?

[Iowa]

42. I, too, would be honored to make the list...

Actually, here's what I'd like to see happen:

--Thousands of good citizens submit public, written requests to be placed on the list.

--Each includes a statement stating that it would be an honor to be on the list because:
1) So many fine, upstanding citizens are already on it.
2) Keeping such lists is a fear tactic; we are not afraid.
3) We stand shoulder to shoulder with other decent citizens who have been singled out.
4) When history passes judgment on the Bush years, we want our descendants to know that we were officially considered to be their enemy.

--Much publicity arranged ahead of time, of course.

Such a mass act would make a farce out of this bungling, sinister regime and their phony "war on terror".

[Jack Rabbit]

43. Hmmmm, I like that idea

Maybe it can be spun into something.

[roody]

47. Great idea!!!!!

Would going to Cuba with Pastors for Peace in an act of public disobedience get someone on the list? One could do that instead of requesting to be on the list. We could see which one gets on the list first. Except we can't see the list.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maraya1969]

49. Is there any way you can find out if you are on the list?

[Jack Rabbit]

50. Planning on taking a flight any time soon?

[Chulanowa]

53. Something I've noticed...

Two classes of people seem to keep popping up on terror watch lists.

The first class are political opponents and dissidents- Ted Kennedy, outspoken celebrities, high-profile activists (and probably any activist that's been arrested more than once), and other such obvious "hazardous individuals"

The second class, the ones that take a moment for you to scratch your head and go "who"? They're educators. Teachers, professors, scientists. People you wouldn't know from Adam even if they were your in-laws, chances are.

Despots always crack down not only on their political rivals, but also on the educators of their nation. What we are looking at is a sorry attempt at an American Cultural Revolution, ala Mao Tse Tung. Teachers are terrorists. Professors are political subversives. Public school is "dangerous" and "overfunded".

No, we are not 1941 Germany. Fruticetum is right about that. We're not even close. But that does not matter, because fascism is fascism is fascism, and is the disease most fatal to America.

[Hubert Flottz]

54. People who are not on the list...

Arabs with enough money to buy a company in the USA!

[libhill]

55. Meanwhile, back at the ranch -

Osama Bin Ladin is STILL foot loose and fancy free, and the ass hat Republican adminstration and Congress do shit about our southern border. Who the hell knows how many real terrorists, may have crossed or are crossing? But that 70 year old man, Jaysus, Ah be askeered o' him. -WORST PRESIDENT EVER -

[CoffeeCat]

56. If anyone thinks this is a mistake...they are fooling themselves...

BushCo wants every liberal and "dissenter" to be rounded up and controlled.

These decent progressives, liberals and Bush protesters end up on the terror watch list--because they are slowly getting us used to their plan of controlling dissent. As reported by many progressives and protesters--they are on "watch" lists and many are unable to board planes. Everyone is appalled at first. Then, some time passes and people forget---because nothing bad happened to these people--or to themselves.

Just wait until the next phase is implemented. The number of libs on the list will grow and possibly they'll start arresting people or intimidating them with interrogation. Again, we'll grow outraged, until we forget--AGAIN--relieved that it affected someone else.

The levels of punishment/freedom squashing will exacerbate until they routinely lock up those who openly disagree with them. They have the right to do it today--via the Patriot Act. They can slap the label "terrorist" on anyone who protests, lock them up indefinitely, without access to legal counsel. They don't even have to disclose to the media the names of people who are taken. It's all in the Patriot Act. They've got the framework in place. The only reason they don't round all of us up now--is because of the outrage that will ensue.

This is an iterative process. They're killing dissent--and squashing democracy--one baby step at a time.

Welcome to our democrazy.

[Ilsa]

57. The"List" needs to be rendered meaningless. We need to

get everyone's name on the list to prove how absurd it is. I don't know how to do that. I am so sick of what this administration has done to terrorize the citizens of this country.

[lonestarnot]

58. scientists, lawyer, doctors, professors beware.

[peacetalksforall]

59. What % of people still have to realize that we are being taken over? nt

[peacetalksforall]

61. The 'nazis' in our system appear to have started out slowly and most

of us only really noticed them in the past five years when they accelerated their program. Their decision to accelerate was made before the Clinton wins - an era which caused them untold frustration because they had to wint that oil as fast as they could, but which gave them additional time to plan. There is no doubt in my mind about where they are going.

I think they intend martial law and prisons for us - soon.

How long does it take to have prisoners convert a warehouse or mfg plant and add it to their already prepared prisons?

So parallels to Hitler and nazism/facism pace and match precisely and falling back on 'we're not there yet' is crazy and reckless if you don't look at where we came from and where we are not and what our future looks like if we don't take our country back.

They are a relatively small circle of people who are calling the shots - and they are everyone you thought you could trust.

Americans are trusting fools.

[misternormal]

62. I had no idea what UNESCO is, so...

... for those in the same boat here it is:

UNESCO - the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) was founded on 16 November 1945. For this specialized United Nations agency, it is not enough to build classrooms in devastated countries or to publish scientific breakthroughs. Education, Social and Natural Science, Culture and Communication are the means to a far more ambitious goal : to build peace in the minds of men.

http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=29008&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html

My gosh, anyone who would support peace through education and the like should be on the terror list... :sarcasm:

[TexasLawyer]

65. You should have the lady and her husband

alert your local newspaper about this. I'm sure that others in your community would enjoy reading about this situation and contemplating the absurdity of it.

[snacker]

74. I agree. n/t

[earth mom]

68. How long before every dem, progressive, liberal or leftie is on that list?

While the Nazi Rethugs-better known as the REAL TERRORISTS of this country-are free to roam wherever and whenever they choose?

Evil Bastards! :grr:

[Jack Rabbit]

70. I'd love to see that

Bush may think he had a mandate, but the fact is that he didn't get that many more votes than Kerry (and that premise assumes the election was fair, which is another matter).

So half the country -- or two thirds of it, if the latest polling data means anything -- will be on a terror watch list. What kind of arrogance justifies that?

I read a story of how suring a period of political unrest in the nineteenth century a Russian minister told the Tsar that he was a "disappointment to the people." The Tsar dismissed the complaint as irrelevant. "What matters," said the Tsar, "is whether the people are a disappointment to me."

[progressoid]

72. What the hell is an "inactive list"???

Like an off duty police officer? Teacher on sabbatical?

[Jack Rabbit]

75. It's a list of terrorist "suspects" who aren't currently being monitored

I know, the explanation makes no sense. One would hope that there is reason for any name that appears on that list to be there; one is either a national security threat and needs to be watched or one is not and should be free to go about one's business without being harassed by federal agents.

The very idea of an "inactive" list would suggest that the criteria for being named has to do with something other than probable cause.

I suppose somebody from Homeland Security might tell us there is a good reason, but unless His Imperial Incompetency waves his magic wand and declassify it, he won't be able to explain it. As far as I am concerned, that brings us right back to the previous point: it looks like the criteria from being put on this list has to do with something other than probable cause.

[anarch]

76. college professor? Earth science? Of course he's on the list.

He's probably been spreading dangerous propaganda and whatnot. Science...sheesh, we don't need science when we got faith.