My stepson is thinking about joining the military

[shadowknows69]

Long story short he's lived most of his life in Florida with his father and grandparents. Gotten in a fair amount of trouble and is now on some serious probation. Looks like the probation officer is almost helping to push the idea. Needless to say my wife is beside herself and has desperately asked me to talk to him. Not really looking for answers from y'all just support. Mrs. Shadow reads too so throw her a hug.

[valerief]

1. If you accidentally dropped an anvil on his foot, he might

thank you years down the road.

[annabanana]

2. People here have links to lots of resources....

That can give you (and her) much information that will help them dissuade him..
(keep this kicked and it will come)

[peacebird]

3. nononononononono! Good grief - tell him no trouble he could possibly

be in now is WORTH risking his life in Iraq.

Like the old Billy Joel song "Second Wind" - his will come. Tough it out, take the punishment for whatever but under no circumstances - NO circumstances - let them talk him into joining the military...

:hug:

Fingers crossed that he stays clear of the military....

[shadowknows69]

10. It's not going to be easy

all he's seeing is the free college and signing bonuses. If I had more contact with him I might be able to help but I think even his father is nudging him along. Don't get me started on that.

[BOSSHOG]

4. There are worse ways to make a living

I served 24 years in the Navy, got a good education and a nice pension and I'm a youngster at 52. I wouldn't recommend joining the Army with bush in the white house, but if your stepson cleans up his act, heads straight he could actually make something of himself and he'll have a lot of help doing it. What's the alternative to a hot rack on a nuclear powered submarine? A jail cell? I recommend an open minded approach to all available options. If he's in too much trouble he might not be able to join.

[shadowknows69]

13. If our military wasn't currently controlled by madmen

I would think it would be exactly what he needs. I sometime regret not trying it myself earlier in life.
<edit> this kid is wicked smart too despite having some problems. He could ace the ASFAB (is that right?) test and go in for whatever he wanted to I'm sure. I could've trained to be a doctor with my score If I'd gone in (DUNCE SHADOW!!!LOL)

[AndyTiedye]

35. They're Sending Navy People to Iraq Too

Navy to increase numbers inside Iraq
Move aimed at easing pressure on stretched Army forces

From Mike Mount
CNN

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Navy will try to lift some of the burden off U.S. Army troops in Iraq this year by increasing the number of sailors inside that country and taking on duties soldiers have been doing, according to the Navy's top sailor.
…
In a briefing to Pentagon reporters Tuesday, Adm. Michael G. Mullen, the Chief of Naval Operations, said the Navy will start playing a bigger role in Iraq by adding to the 4,000 sailors already operating in the country.
…
Mullen would not say how many sailors he is expecting to put into Iraq or when they will start filling the various duties. He did say the number of sailors would be less than 12,000.

The additional sailors will take on existing roles in the combat arena as medical corpsmen and in special operations roles… more SEAL teams, … security roles, with some 500 sailors expected to take over operations at a prison inside the country, Mullen said. He would not say which facility the sailors would take over.
…
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/02/07/iraq.navy/

[peacebird]

5. nononononononono! Good grief - tell him no trouble he could possibly

be in now is WORTH risking his life in Iraq.

Like the old Billy Joel song "Second Wind" - his will come. Tough it out, take the punishment for whatever but under no circumstances - NO circumstances - let them talk him into joining the military...

:hug:

Fingers crossed that he stays clear of the military....

[skooooo]

11. life in jail is no guarantee either....

typo edit

[noamnety]

6. I know you aren't looking for answers

but I'm going to post a link anyway. I did my best to put together some counter-recruitment info there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x990783

[shadowknows69]

16. Thank you very much

I don't like asking help from strangers but then again y'all are friends aren't ya. :yourock:

[Warpy]

7. It's really too bad

that the military is being misused right now on wars of corporate convenience, because the military might be the making of this kid.

Now, before y'all drop from shock, let me explain that the military, along with the other brainwashing, is the organization most able to get through to bad kids and give them a sense of belonging and of being part of something that is far bigger than they or their gang are. If this were peacetime and we didn't have a madman in the White House, it would be a great idea for him to enlist.

So there's the conundrum, a decision between a live kid in prison with a string of people he's hurt on the outside, or a kid whose life will be turned around and then endangered by a corrupt and irresponsible government.

I'm glad I don't have to face the decision. I'm sorry that he does.

[shadowknows69]

22. His trouble isn't even that serious

and his probation isn't much longer I don't think. Again I agree under different leaders this would be a very good move for him.

[skooooo]

8. Have a young relative in pretty much the same situation...

...It's a hard call. The boy needs structure, and can't seem to find it on his own. Good luck to your stepson.

[Squatch]

9. The military has been very good to me.

10 years Army.

[acmavm]

12. Oh good grief. If he doesn't understand how dangerous Iraq is, maybe

explaining that when we attack Iran things happening right now will seem like a picnic. The worst is yet to come.

[skooooo]

15. you all aren't understanding the situation...

If the choice is some kid continually screwing up their life by going in and out of jail, the future ain't so bright. I'm not saying the military is a great answer, but it is an alternative. Maybe he could get in the Navy, and have fewer risks for combat...

[peacebird]

17. Navy is sending its people to Iraq for convoys now. "Supporting"

the Marines and Army.

Haven't you noticed the dead Sailors and Seamen in the body counts?

Not too much "ocean" in Baghdad...

[Recursion]

19. Corpsmen

The Navy also sends Corpsmen, probably the bravest human beings on earth, to patrol with Marines armed only with a pistol and wearing a big red cross on their helmet and chest.

[acmavm]

18. I understand perfectly. I've already read the articles where they are

now using Navy personnel to do some of the chores that Army and Marine personnel usually do.

I am not against military service. Not at all. In fact, I've always kind of favored mandatory service for all those capable of doing same. Like a year or two like the Israelis do.

BUT NOT NOW. Not with this administration. Not with what they've done so far and what the have in mind for the future.

[skooooo]

20. If it were your nephew or son or stepson...

The answer might not be so clear. That's what I'm saying.

[skooooo]

25. Look at Leghorn's response...

We're talking about kids who are in TROUBLE. The chances of getting hurt in the Navy may be worth the chance, it if keeps him from getting hooked on meth, committing a felony, or something else which seems inevitable.

[acmavm]

29. You look at the OPs response #22.

"His trouble isn't even that serious and his probation isn't much longer I don't think "

Where do you get dead out of that??????????

[shadowknows69]

36. I didn't mean to minimize it

he has pretty respectable little rap sheet. Nothing that harms anyone but himself mostly. Couple posessions, stole grandmas car a few times. Last one was getting caught with prescription pills in school. Not even with intent to sell or anything but his priors screwed him. He's been real lucky but he is at last straw status and haas a personality where the potential is definitely there for him to screw up again.

[acmavm]

40. The potential is always there, believe me. All of a sudden my 13

year old is being a major pain in my ass. But I sure as hell, no matter what, think that enlistment (even if he could) is the answer. Not now. Again I am a supporter of military service. My brother John was in the Air Force, Bob was in the Army, Tom was in the Marines, and my Dad was in the Navy.

[skooooo]

37. talking about...

...situation in my own family i guess. got emotional, sorry.

[acmavm]

47. Sorry as well. And I understand that we are living in times that have

no GOOD choices, only the lesser of evils.

[shadowknows69]

32. I think he realizes how close he came to jail this last time

And I really think he would've kept his nose clean (figure of speech, nothing to do with coke) this time but I fear it's more financial than anything else. his father nor us have the money to send him to college. Well actually his father makes enough money but is unwilling to. Desite the fact he has an above average (actually tested as "gifted" by a therapist) IQ he's had a dismal school career and is trying to get his GED. So the whole idea of the GI bill is obviously my biggest enemy here. At the very least I'm going to tell him that he needs to get exactly the job he wants and not be bullshitted into joining the infantry until there's an opening. This kid would best serve our country by manning some high technology that helps save our soldiers lives. If anything he should be on a naval ship somewhere he's lived 2/3 of his life on a pennisula after all.

[skooooo]

58. i hope it turns out ok

...for him. I also wouldn't trust the military to "live up to" any promises.

[shadowknows69]

28. It may be a moot point if the cabal

wants to escalate WWIII and there's a draft. At least then my wfie and I could get him up north where we are and slip him into Canada. Yeah I said I'd smuggle my stepson to Canada. Fuk you agent mike.

[I Have A Dream]

14. Good luck in getting your message across, shadow. Any other time...

might be OK to join, but there are crazy people in control right now. :scared:

:hug: to Mrs. Shadow.

[babylonsister]

21. There's a draft discussion group on DU if you didn't know it, and

there's some interesting info on there.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=269

Hi, Mrs.and Mrs. Shadow, and I'm sure this news is very upsetting. I hope your son can find another way to clear his record and I hope he realizes the probation officer has his own agenda that probably has nothing to do with your son's best interests.
Here's a hug.:grouphug:

[Shipwack]

39. "Own agenda"?

Such as...? Do you know something I don't? Are they getting kick-backs from recruiters or something?

[shadowknows69]

44. I would almost guarantee it

Why not. My stepson can't join until he gets off probation and gets his GED which the probation department is helping along I think but they are also obviously nudging him in this direction.

[babylonsister]

If the probation officer is pushing this guy into enlisting, I'd say

there's an agenda of some sort involved. I believe this was an 'offer' made during the VN war as well. Either enlist or go to jail. But I'm just guessing given the info supplied.

[Longhorn]

23. My son is Marine who has spent his entire enlistment in California

and Japan. He has about 18 months left and will finish in Japan. His MOS is computer network administrator so his job prospects look good when he gets out. He's a liberal and an atheist and he makes his views known yet he is still respected by his fellow Marines, including the other NCOs and officers.

We weren't thrilled about it when he joined and I think he has even regretted it from time to time but none of us can say it was a bad decision. I know we've been lucky that he got this MOS (he went in without a contract) and that he didn't end up in Iraq. If your stepson can stay out of the infantry -- maybe even stay out of the Marines or Army, he is less likely to end up in harm's way.

My thoughts are with him! :hi:

[shadowknows69]

38. I've had a few soldiers I've asked tell me the same

and that is encouraging but we feel helpless about him making the right decisions because we're so far away and don't have much input.

[curt_b]

24. Truth in Recruiting

Here are some resources, downloads and links we've put together:
http://www.ijpc-cincinnati.org/truth/truth.htm

[reichstag911]

26. Before he does enlist,...

...recommend that he read an article entitled "Casualty of War" in the issue (#999) of Rolling Stone with GW on the cover.

[tabasco]

27. I would strongly support a young person joining the service

if we had a rational government, working for the good of the people.

The Army did a lot for me as far as growing up and learning to handle responsibility.

But with the corporate cabal running the country, I would avoid military service. I do not want to see anybody else murdered in Cheney's oil wars.

[Bigmack]

30. No jobs afterward....

Well... not entirely true.... but the outsourcing and privatization of the military under Rummy has cut the number of crossover careers available after the service.

The cooks, utility workers, and lots of other specialty fields are being phased out to private (read Halliburton/Kellog, Brown, and Root) companies. Not much call for machine gunners in civilian life. I ought to know. I seldom shoot an M-60 these days. I used to blow shit up until the 9/11 paranoia robbed me of my explosives permit.

How can a kid who is on probation get into the service? Have the standards been lowered that much? I know in the old days, kids sometimes got a choice.... army or jail... but that wasn't in the "probation" stage of the justice(?) system, it was in the preliminary hearing phase.

[The Backlash Cometh]

31. Remember when that was a good idea?

The military thing went to pot the minute they took away the GI Bill. For a young man or woman to risk the best years of their lives for this country, we should at a minimum, guarantee them a college and campus housing. And I mean a full ride to some of the best colleges available.

[MADem]

33. What the probation officer is doing is ILLEGAL

You cannot give ultimatums in that fashion, so tell the kid that if he does it UNDER DURESS, and they finally get a 'peace dividend' that the kid will have his ass force-shaped out of the military at the convenience of the government, due to the fraudulent nature of his enlistment. He'll still get an honorable, assuming he doesn't screw up, but a rigorous clearance (which is required for the GOOD jobs) WILL uncover that probation, even if an ENTNAC doesn't. And if he is on active duty without ever having mentioned it, he's got trouble down the line.

Pull this up, print it out and give it to the kid: http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/joinprison.htm

If the kid CONFESSES to his infractions, and is granted a waiver, he's good to go, but trust me--when the military downsizes again, as it will, probably around the time the kid is thinking about a career and is closer to retirement than first enlistment, they'll force-shape his ass out of service without a pension to raise their 'quality' goals and to free up promotion opportunity for "more deserving" (read: no criminal record) careerists. Read this (requires you to watch a halfassed ad, but worth it): http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/02/waivers/

A taste:

...This is where waivers come in. According to statistics provided to Salon by the office of the assistant secretary of defense for public affairs, the Army said that 17 percent (21,880 new soldiers) of its 2005 recruits were admitted under waivers. Put another way, more soldiers than are in an entire infantry division entered the Army in 2005 without meeting normal standards. This use of waivers represents a 42 percent increase since the pre-Iraq year of 2000. (All annual figures used in this article are based on the government's fiscal year, which runs from Oct. 1 to Sept. 30. So fiscal year 2006 began Oct. 1, 2005.)

In fact, even the already high rate of 17 percent underestimates the use of waivers, as the Pentagon combined the Army's figures with the lower ones for reserve forces to dilute the apparent percentage. Equally significant is the Army's currently liberal use of "moral waivers," which are issued to recruits who have committed what are loosely defined as criminal offenses. Officially, the Pentagon states that most waivers issued on moral grounds are for minor infractions like traffic tickets. Yet documents obtained by Salon show that many of the offenses are more serious and include drunken driving and domestic abuse.

Last year, 37 percent of the Army's waivers (about 8,000 soldiers) were based on moral grounds. Like waivers as a whole, these waivers are proliferating -- they're 32 percent higher than in the prewar year of 2000. As a result, the odds are going up that the soldiers fighting and taking the casualties in Iraq entered the Army with a criminal record.

"The more of those people you take, the more problems you are going to have and the less effective they are going to be," said Lawrence J. Korb, an assistant secretary of defense under Reagan and a senior fellow at the progressive Center for American Progress. "This is another way you are lowering your standards to meet your goals." Retired Lt. Gen. William E. Odom, who was the Army's chief intelligence officer from 1981 to 1985, also called the increase in waivers "disturbing."

....

[jerry611]

41. It HAS been done in Florida many times

My co-worker's brother got mixed up with some drug problems and he dealing and taking, writing fake scripts...the whole 9 yards.

Well he told the state attorney and the judge that he plans to join the military. And in exchange the judge and SA decided to drop the charges on that condition.

[MADem]

50. He better not want a job with a TS clearance requirement

An ENTNAC or even a fast NAC might miss that court stuff, but anything requiring a full blown clearance will reveal it. He'd better admit the full story to the recruiter. Otherwise, it'll bite him down the line. If he sends the recruiter an email and saves a copy with the headers, that might serve as a factor in mitigation if the recruiter bullshits his enlistment application (which the kid signs, so HE is responsible for the contents), but his best bet is to go the FULL WAIVER route and do it correctly. Otherwise, it could spell trouble down the road.

I'm stunned, frankly, they are taking people with that history. Drugs, particularly DEALING, was always a nonstarter--and conviction wasn't a prerequisite to disqualification. It's gotta really screw with the morale of the middle management servicemembers who have had to toe the line in the most arduous fashion for fifteen to eighteen years to see the personnel records of some of the new recruits. I'll bet the adjustment is difficult--you become accustomed to a certain quality level, and these kids require a LOT more direction, instruction, and course correction than previously. More work, less time to do it...

[shadowknows69]

42. I don't think it's an ultimatum situation

And I'm sorry If I made it sound that way. I may be off base with that comment too. I know he was in the loop somewhere though in the genesis of all this. My stepson has had a history of ADHD and depression and the like so this may be a probation off/counsler type deal. I'm frustrated by lack of information.

[MADem]

48. ADHD can be a medical disqualifier, as can depression

It used to be these conditions were RED FLAGS. Do not pass go, do not enlist. Absolutely nonwaiverable.

Now, they can waiver if the kid is not on meds. Personallly, and no offense to your stepson, I think this is an unwise change on the part of the Services. No matter how much they are trying to spin that the military isn't under great stress, it is not the AVF of the Clinton years--the professionalism is draining out, and it's becoming a cadre of people who are given no other viable options:

Under the old standards, any history of ADD or ADHD was disqualifying. While waivers were sometimes possible, they were among the hardest categories of waivers to get approved. Under the new standards, ADD/ADHD is disqualifying only if the applicant has been treated with ADD/ADHD medication within the previous year and/or they display signs of ADD/ADHD. For applicants with a previous history of ADD/ADHD who have been off medication for more than one year, and they do no demonstrate significant impulsivity or inattention during MEPS processing, the MEPS examining official may find them qualified for military service without submission of a waiver.

Records review is still required. Any history of being evaluated or treated for ADD/ADHD must be documented. As a minimum, all treatment (if any) within the previous three years must be submitted to MEPS, in advance, as part of the medical pre-screening. Full medical records are required if the applicant was ever treated for ADD or ADHD with any medication other than Ritalin, Adderal, or Dexedrine, or if there were any additional psychiatric symptoms, such as, but not limited to, depression.

MEPS may require school transcripts to demonstrate acceptable academic performance for the year without medication. If treatment for ADD/ADHD occurred throughout the school environment, but wasn’t stopped until after the applicant left school, there is still the possibility of waiver consideration. ...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/joiningthemilitary/a/asthma.htm

[Faygo Kid]

34. The best to all of you. Now stop him. He would be supporting a madman.

[shadowknows69]

45. The kid knows what this madman is about too

that's what baffles us. We was visiting us one summer and my mother offered to take him to a movie. She thought he'd want to see the latest action or scifi flick and He chose Farenheit 9/11 (also responsible for my mother opening her eyes a bit thank you Michael Moore) and he came back raving about how evil bush is. As I said we're at a loss and beside ourselves here.

[Jamison]

43. Sadly the military is probably the best option to young people now.

Thanks to *'s economy. A kid coming out of high school that can't afford college or tech school might find a job flipping burgers or stocking shelves at Wal-Mart if they're lucky, but most likely they'll end up chronically unemployed since they are the newest members of the workforce and usually have little skills.

[shadowknows69]

46. One Big Thank You

Instead of trying to reply to each post which would keep this kicked indefinitely I need to give you all one big very heart felt thank you on behalf of my wife and I for the response. I have NEVER met(even though I haven't technically) a finer, more compassionate, more intelligent and informed group of people in my 37 years of life. From the bottoms of our hearts thank you. Now you have a 300 pound man sitting here crying so that's all I've got to say about that. :yourock:

[Shipwack]

49. Your best bet is for you and him to get together...

and try to make a -plan-. Right now, he sees going into the military as a plan that solves several problems for him and gives him benefits. Your plan needs to come close to providing the benefits that he sees joining the military has.

The plan -must- be detailed. "Staying here and getting a good paying job" is -not- good enough. "Getting a loan/scholarship/grant, going to ITT, and getting a job in advanced widget making" is the start of a good plan.

I don't know the specifics of his situation, and your posts are a little contradictary... You start off describing him as being in "a fair amount of trouble and is now on some serious probation" then say it's not all that bad. It could be that right now something like the military is his last chance to get into a structured environment and shape up. Maybe not. I don't know how far from rope's end he's at.

If he does decide to go in anyway, by all means, makes sure -all- promises are in writing in his contract, and urge him toward Air Force, Coast Guard, and Navy first. Yes, yes, I know that there are Coasties and blue water sailors in the mid-east right now, but the percentages are in your favor in those services. If he scores well on his ASVAB tests, get him into a technical field; that'll keep him in school longer, and give him a superior pay-grade.

Just so you know where I'm coming from, I'm about to retire after 20 years of naval service, and it pisses me off to know end that the current bunch of neo-con incompetent crooks are wasting are military the way it is. But they aren't long for this world, and it's possible that by the time your stepson gets through boot camp and school, it might be over.

My own stepson, at age 21, has decided (without any urging from me) to go into the Coast Guard, and he leaves in 2 weeks for boot. I am ambivalent about his decision, but am being supportive. I'm glad your stepson has you there to look out for him, and I'm sure he is too...

[babylonsister]

51. OT, but I have 2 nephews in the CG, both young men. One is in

aviation, the other isn't at the point where he can make any decisions (he recently graduated boot camp). My husband and 2 brothers are all retired Coasties. I'd say the CG might be safer than most. Good luck to your stepson as well!:patriot:

[OutNow]

52. Contact IVAW or MFSO right away

Last summer I had the opportunity to spend some time at Camp Casey. I met some wonderful young men from Iraq Veterans Against The War (IVAW) and also many members of Military Families Speak Out (MFSO). From my perspective, parents really don't have as much credibility with kids as people their own age. So I suggest you contact IVAW or MFSO right away. They will tell your stepson what awaits him in Bagdad or other Iraq hell hole in a very direct fashion. And they will explain it as a peer. And they will show, by their own example, what course to take. The IVAW kids at Camp Casey talked to me a little bit, maybe because I'm also a vet even though I'm a bald fat old guy, but really let it all out when talking among themselves.

One other idea. Bribe him. Whatever the Army offers in sign up money, etc. offer him more. Borrow the money if necessary. You are trying to save his life. Ask your friends and DU members for contributions. Your local peace group can hold a bake sale. I'll kick in $100.00 to start. I've never met you, but will give you the money because your stepson's life is so precious.

Bring the troops home now

[noamnety]

53. Talking to the IVAW is a good idea

If you give us an idea of the general location of your stepson (nearest metropolitan area), we can try to track down when and where they will have speakers in his area next.

[shadowknows69]

54. Jacksonville Fla.

to be exact.

[noamnety]

56. I know Camilo Mejia's in Florida

although he's South Florida. Too bad we didn't know a week earlier - he was just a panel member at a showing of No Sir! in Ft. Lauderdale last week. A bit of a drive from Jacksonville, but would have been a cool thing to attend. http://miami.indymedia.org/calendar/event_display_edit.php?event_id=687

Can your stepson travel to something, or is he on some kind of house arrest, or required to stay within the state or anything? (Looks close to Georgia, so I figured I'd check.)

[shadowknows69]

57. great idea and extremely generous of you Outnow

Hope we can reason with him though. A lot of great ideas and help here. Thank you all so much.

[seabeyond]

55. huggies mrsshadows...... and support her mr shadows. he knows

what military and iraq and iran will bring him now if he choses to go in. i am sorry his life is so messed up. i hope he is able to find peace, sometime soon