Dress codes in public schools....

[ikojo]

A school district in Illinois is thinking about imposing a dress code beginning next school year. What do DUer's think of public school dress codes? I came from a family that could not afford to buy a lot of clothes. I had a paper route in high school and bought what I could but being big I didn't always have the latest fashion. I think I'd have preferred a dress code because it would have eliminated one way kids divide themselves. I've not given it much thought since then, but I think buying three pair of khakis and a few polo style shirts is cheaper than buying a bunch of trendy clothes.

I don't agree with the no hair dying or hair clips.

http://ksdk.com/news/education/education_article.aspx?storyid=96369

snip

It's a two page list and many favorites, including blue jeans, would be banned. The proposal says a standarized dress policy will discourage gang-affiliation and encourage learning.

Right now students wear a variety of clothing to school that would be banned under a new policy.
Here's a short list:
--No blue jeans or anything denim.
--No hats or head coverings of any kind.
--No dyed or streaked hair.
--No hair clips or bobby pins.
--All clothing must be solid colors: khaki, black, navy or white.

[acmavm]

1. I don't agree with the no blue jeans or anything denim part.

[Ilsa]

83. Me too. It;'s all my boys wear, and that is true for most boys in

school here in Texas. The off-brand blue jeans are inexpensive and provide durability in clothing.

I don't like dress codes, but I think they are sometimes necessary with the older students.

[NaturalHigh]

86. Same here.

I'm not opposed to some sort of dress code, but banning blue jeans seems a little extreme to me.

[dysfunctional press]

2. i'm all for some type of uniform/dress code for all public schools-

for a lot of the same reasons.

[LA lady]

3. Fantastic to me

It is the greatest thing that ever happened to my kids. It is MUCH more economical and evens out the competition amoung the haves and have nots. Dressing in the morning in 10 times faster. The kids look neater and more studious. I think it helps them focus on academics.

We give all our outgrown or disliked uniforms to a clothes closet the school maintains for emergencies (like when we got Katrina evacuees). I love it.

[Captain Hilts]

4. Jeans/dark pants, blue blazer, oxford shirt, for all. nt

[Kat45]

5. Maybe they think hair clips/bobby pins could be used as a weapon

:shrug:

[mitchum]

6. When I went to school, we had no dress code, no Pledge Of Allegiance,...

no "moment of silence", and we spent a good part of the day smoking marijuana. And no one ever brought a gun to school and shot someone.
I think that American teens ARE too brand conscious (just as are their parents), but I don't think that a dress code is the way to solve this problem. A better solution is to kill your television.

[RoyGBiv]

65. I go with this ...

Kill the television.

You also make a cogent point there, but I'd like to more completely connect the dots. American teens are brand conscious mostly because their parents are brand conscious. When a parent is buying $150 jeans and $100 shoes for their 8 year old, just exactly what do we think will be important to them when they're teenagers and become aware of the state of fashion? Once again we're trying to charge schools and more specifically teachers with the duty of correcting our mistakes as parents. That's not their job, but it seems even progressives, as evidenced in this thread, are perfectly willing to throw off their responsibilities on others.

My parents bought me clothes that were comfortable, neat, and affordable. When I was a teenager my grandmother found a sale on Izod shirts and got a couple, thinking they'd be better shirts because they were a popular brand. I hated the things because they weren't comfortable, and I had never been led to believe that the label was important at all. I wore them as little as I could get away with.

My daughter is growing up the same. No one in the family who has bought her clothes has ever been allowed to get her expensive, "stylish" crap just because it has a label attached to it that indicates it is popular. She's always looked neat and presentable and would pass any dress code anywhere *except* those moronic things that demand girls wear skirts. She hates skirts, in part because she's never been forced to wear one, but also because she prefers the ruggedness of denim because she's an active person who doesn't want to worry about the wind making her clothes fly off or skinning her knees if she falls. She does like things to "look cool," but in her mind, the clothes she makes for herself are cooler than anything she can buy pre-made in a store.

[Bobbie47]

7. This is my daughters

school district and she is not a happy camper.

For myself, I see the good and bad. This district is poor so I believe this is why they are doing it.

edit: add district

[Kutjara]

8. This debate has been running for years in the UK...

...where all schoolkids wear uniforms, whether in private or public schools. The biggest argument in favor is the one you cite (uniformity removing status based on fashion/wealth). The biggest against is that it is indoctrinating children to be faceless functionaries.

These days, clothes are only one of the ways that kids differentiate themselves from eachother. iPods, PSPs, cellphones, sunglasses; all of them are paraded around the schoolyard, and would continue to be so even if everyone wore a uniform. When I was growing up, you could have stripped me naked and stolen everything and it wouldn't have amounted to more than a few bucks. Today, shake even a fairly young child upside down and several hundred dollars worth of stuff will fall out.

The next obvious indicator of status sits just outside the school gates. When mommy or daddy pull up in their car to pick junior up after school, the family's status is plain for all to see.

I don't think the levelling feature of school uniforms holds water any more. There are too many ways for kids to show off their wealth, even if they're all dressed the same.

[GrumpyGreg]

11. The kids in the UK always look neat,tidy,and presentable.

Our kids,rich and poor alike,look like slobs.

[northzax]

76. this is why I learned to tie a tie in kindergarten

since I had to wear one.

[GrumpyGreg]

9. I have no problem whatsoever with public school dress codes.

I don't understand the hair clip and bobby pin thing,though.

[kineneb]

10. all schools used to have dress codes

back in the Paleolithic era...oops, 1960s. Girls were not allowed to wear pants at my public elementary school, even when it was quite cold.

Some schools in the SF Bay Area have gone to uniforms, and have assistance available for those who cannot afford the clothing. I am ambivalent on the issue, except for the hats part: as a child, my ophthalmologist insisted I wear a hat and sunglasses when I was outdoors, so I wouldn't get migraines. The schools would have to make exceptions for health reasons.

[Glorfindel]

12. School uniforms are extremely democratic and I like the idea

But I'm an old bachelor and my opinions don't count. Nevertheless, requiring students to dress neatly and appropriately in clothes that actually fit seems to me to be extremely conducive to learning, and if everyone dressed uniformly there would be no "richly dressed" and "poorly dressed" cliques in schools.

[Irreverend IX]

32. Democratic?

Ain't nothing more democratic than enforced conformity!

[knitter4democracy]

48. Like the kids don't do that already?

The best thing about uniforms is that all the kids agree that they hate them. All the kids find small ways to rebel and spend a lot of energy working out how to be individuals inside the uniform code.

Without them, kids make up their own uniforms, often focusing on expensive things that many kids can't afford. They have to have the right shoes, the right shirt, the right pants or short skirt, etc. Uniforms make it easier to blur the lines between socioeconomic classes and take the pressure off of all the kids to conform in more expensive ways.

I taught in schools without uniforms and schools with them. I hated them before I taught in schools with them, but I changed my mind in a hurry when I saw how well they work.

[Irreverend IX]

72. The lines between social classes

I keep hearing this idea that uniforms keep schoolkids from discriminating against each other on the basis of clothing, and it's not true. Friends of mine who went to schools with uniforms told me that students can get their uniforms from a variety of sources, ranging from bargain outlets to Abercrombie and Fitch. They said the differences between high-end and low-end uniforms are quite apparent, and a certain class of students will look down their noses at you if you wear the cheap stuff.

[knitter4democracy]

79. I never saw that in my students.

Of course, we really worked on that as a school, too, but I watched my students pretty closely on that and never saw it. Now, the girls did get snobby about purses and shoes, but no one cared if it were a knock-off or if you only had the one pair you wore all year and for as many years as you could. Girls would save up and hit the Coach outlet to get one Coach purse to use all through high school (if they cared about that sort of thing).

I think the key is for the school to work on it as a whole community, too. We did, making sure we mixed kids up and making them work together in all situations.

[obreaslan]

110. What we really need is for everyone to think and act alike....

What better way than to start with an enforced dress code. If we can make you dress the same, we can make you think the same....

[Bigmack]

13. Some administrators/school boards...

are control freaks and want the kids all the same... docile. I'd oppose uniform standards if was just a manifestation of a larger (mindfucking) control mania.

If the school/district is just trying to level the brand-name body adornment playing field, or avoid gang colors, it's a good thing.

Kids will get around dress codes, though.... one way or the other. If red clothes are banned, they'll wear red clothes under their regular clothes and flash each other. Kids..... almost as clever, annoying, and smart-assed as adults!

What is the regulation on piercings? That was a biggie for one administrator when I taught. The kids might not have had visible piercings, but navel rings were sure popular, and it drove him crazy. He couldn't just walk up to that little cheerleader and demand to see her navel. (I really loved telling him that sometimes people pierced nipples and genitals, too. He made a Homer-like "D'oh!" sound.

[Bobbie47]

14. I think the rule here in GC for

piercings is eyebrow and nose rings if they are small for the students, I know the teacher can't wear nose rings.

I haven't heard anything in Granite about gangs, maybe at the high school but at middle school where my daughter goes I haven't heard anything.

[neoblues]

15. I'm so insensitive...

I haven't even formed an opinion (well, not until the following few minutes anyway...).

I kind of felt it wasn't important (guess I've been distracted by all the other crap going down); my insensitive (and ignorant) comment would have been something along the lines of how it wouldn't bother me if they all chose to wear Hawaiian shirts/shorts.

Now, then, taking the matter more seriously for a moment... it does seem to be a rather serious matter after all; indoctrinating our youth to obey 'authority'. To "regiment" them to all be clones of each other... just like Republicans! (especially if the boys have to wear white shirts and red ties, and the girls have to wear dresses)

We need our young people to grow up with a sense of freedom and willingness to resist encroachments on their basic freedoms--and control over what clothing they choose really is a rather basic freedom (even if it's not one that matters in terms of survival). Indeed, it's a perfect opportunity to set an example for them--by resisting the collective. Our children will not be assimilated.

Of course, a basic/limited dress code (a far cry from school uniforms) is pretty much okay and even beneficial in that it gives the students some boundaries and helps them learn to be able to deport themselves in a respectable fashion and thereby fit into society without being unnecessarily provocative. It might even be helpful in producing a sense of school pride; anyway, some forms of dress aren't really acceptable in public for causing distraction or impinging on other's sensibilities for being overtly sexual (perhaps indecent).

Perhaps we could make school uniforms... optional. Thus providing for freedom for both those who want such and those who don't (and who wouldn't wish that on their worst enemies--unless they were Republican anyway). That'd be great! All the little Refudgies all dressed like gingerbread cookies; and, it would help enlightened minds identify those kids who are in need of psychological/developmental help (either in coping with their parent's totalitarian thought patterns or in dealing with their own fears and growing intolerance). It'd be a sort of red flag and could thus be useful. Such might even stimulate political discussions amongst students or focus the faculty to better cover the dynamics of such situations (as when factions arise).

Then again, if they do have to wear uniforms, why not something as unique and colorful as a Hawaiian shirt? :silly:

[knitter4democracy]

50. They don't teach acceptance of authority, trust me.

If anything, they teach kids how to be subversive. Take a high school full of teens, impose a uniform, and they'll look anything but uniform. The kids do what they can to be individuals within the code (or just outside the code to see if the teachers will enforce it ;) ), and it makes the uniform truly explicit. Without one, the kids impose their own uniform but think it's all their idea, when it's really more about our consumerist culture.

[BeTheChange]

88. But their individuality will have other outlets

besides expensive name brand clothes.. and maybe some kinds will pick that outlet as the best ipod, or the coolest new shoes, or whatever...

But it wont be based solely on physical manifestations of modesty, or with today's teenage girl clothes perhaps immodesty, it will atleast create another opportunity at leveling the playing field for honest human relationships.

I completely support the concept of school dress codes. I even agree with uniforms of things that are easily accessible by all.

[davepc]

108. my school dress code...

stipulated collared shirts and ties. It never said anything about tying the tie, so I wore an untied tie around my neck for 2 years before somebody caught on and changed the rule book.

a few days i wore it tied, but around my head like a bandanna.

i never saw anybody indoctrined into being a mindless automaton of willful authority acceptance because of the dress code.

I give kids more credit then that.

[Emit]

16. No blue jeans?!

My daughter would freak!

Anyway, growing up in the 70's in an independent school district just outside Houston, my older sister, a teenager at the time, was the first of a group that protested the "no jeans for girls" (actually, I think it may have been a no pants at all thing -- dresses only) dress code at our high school.

Nope. A no jeans dress code for girls or boys for public school -- I can't get behind that one.

My teenager's public high school has a dress code, though, and it seems reasonable. No low cut/high cut shirts, not hats, no offensice sayings on t-shirts, no bandanas etc.

[Bobbie47]

19. This is why

my daughter is so upset..no jeans plus....

She has picked out her own clothes since she could point to get my attention, she wants shirts, shoes and purses that are hers not what everyone else has...dressing like everyone else is not what school is about for her, so this should be interesting.

[Emit]

24. My sister's teenage daughter has been in and out of private

and public schools throughout her childhood. The latest change occurred when she went from a public high school back to a private school entering 10th grade. The school has a dress code very similar to the one here in the OP -- Man, was that a difficult thing for the first year (she's now a junior). My sister was really torn by all this. She lives in a small town which only has one public high school -- overcrowded with what my sister thought not so good teachers, lots of drugs, etc.

The dress code thing really hit my niece hard. It got so bad with my niece's attitude that my sister gave her an ultimatum -- she could go back to the public school but she'd have to get a job to pay for her own clothes and stuff.

Well, not that I agreed with that -- it's my sister's business -- but, I think my sister, who is a single-doctor-mom, was trying to show her that if she chose the poorer education choice, my niece would have to learn to be more self-sufficient through work, sacrifice or something -- Anyway, that's really not the point. It actually worked out pretty well for my niece in the long run. She grew about 6 inches before the start of this school year, her khaki skirts now hit well above the knee and she feels pretty "cool" for being called on this several times by her teachers (she tries to find skirts that fit their code but when you've got really long legs, sometimes it's difficult). It's nothing too risque, mind you, but when they all wear khaki, having a shorter khaki skirt and breaking the rules a bit is a good pay off when you're 15 and serves her rebellious side a bit.

She's adjusted, and every Wednesday is career day, so she dresses up in style -- although they're strict about that, too.

My niece has a keen sense of fashion like your daughter -- enjoying the unique. She still gets to have that on the weekends, though, and my sister has really encouraged her to find her own style with her personal life and just deal with the school dress code like a job or chore. And she has some cool accessories that the school really can't say much about, like her cool pink and black checked backpack with various pins and patches, funky purses and an awesome blue jean jacket that, in my younger days, I would've killed for. Good luck to you and your daughter! Adjustments may be in her future, but what's that old saying, life begins after high school?

[dysfunctional press]

38. school is not supposed to be about fashion or individualism-

it's supposed to be about learning.

[aikoaiko]

17. Uniforms are better than dress codes. nt

[Solo_in_MD]

21. Concur

It eliminates the subjective nonsense that creeps in with dress codes and the claims of culutral discrimination. Accomodations can be fairly straight forward thought things like kirpans and hijabs could prove to be a challange.

Where I am now I see a lot of camo being worn in schools, which would also go away with uniforms.

[incapsulated]

36. I agree, I wore a uniform (catholic school)

Equalizes everybody and makes getting ready for school very simple and affordable.

:thumbsup:

For those who think the only way for a kid to be "individual" is to dress competitively, think of every artistic genius that grew up so poor they barely had more than a single change of clothing.

It's what is between the ears and in the heart that matters, not what you wear. Those are the kind of values we should teach our kids in this insane consumer society.

[tyedyeto]

18. As a 'product' of the late 50's and 60's

I've been through dress codes. Up until 1965... girls had to wear dresses, no matter what the weather was. By the time I was a senior in high school (graduated in 1970), Friday was 'dress down day' when girls could wear jeans (boys could wear them any day of the week). At the time I thought those rules sucked and I still do. Who cares what is worn? It's the Conservatives and religious right who give a shit about what anyone is wearing. Yes, some kids can't afford what others can. But I've seen what kids are wearing these days... you know what? The price tags are not attached to the clothing.

Hair clips and bobby pins? I haven't seen a teenager use a bobby pin since I was in high school when a few girls still had bee-hive hair-dos. I happen to have long hair. Can I use whatever I need to pin it up or scrunch it up in hotter weather?

Do the clothes make anyone more or less prone to learing and being educated? I very much doubt it.

[JI7]

20. i don't think it makes much difference either way

those who want it give the reasons you gave plus some others such as less focus on clothes and more to important things.

those who oppose it say it takes away individualism.

but i don't think it makes much difference. people can still express themselves outside of the school. and there is a lot more to it than just the clothes one wears.

and people will focus on many other non important things than clothes also. the teasing you mention is something kids get in school. it can reach a point where it's very bad. but in most cases it's something most kids go through and get over easily as they get older and get more experience and see what really matters.

[seg4527]

22. there is way too much wrong with the education system to worry about this

seriously. i just graduated less than 2 years ago. dress them up all you'd like, these kids are still downright MORONS, and that's what we need to be talking about. this is just silly.

[enlightenment]

23. I'd settle for clothes that fit and cover the majority of the body.

Even the college kids could use a little help in that department -- walking down the sidewalk on campus is a repeated "too much information" experience. I do not need to see people's bits hanging out everywhere.

I'm not ancient, and I'm not a prude, but I do think they could leave something to the imagination.

On the other hand, if they wore clothes that fit, there wouldn't be any more of those amusing moments when their 4 sizes too large pants finally slip their tenuous grip on their scrawny butts and descend to earth -- usually taking the wearer with them . . .

[Emit]

25. I concur with this

I car pool and pick up some kids after school sometimes. One of my teenage daughter's friends got in the car the other day with a shirt revealing almost her entire belly -- up to her belly button for sure. Being rather up front with these girls, having known them all their lives, I asked, "Don't you guys have a dress code?" They all laughed and said yes. Come to find out, the girl had worn a different shirt to school that the hall monitor thought was too low cut. So, they gave her a shirt to put on instead -- the one that showed her tummy! Too much.

But, my SO works at our local university. I'm constantly hearing about the student workers in the department whose clothes don't fit and whose various private parts are no longer private. At a minimum, the student workers who work in the library or other office settings, etc. should have some sort of dress code.

[LizW]

30. LOL! That's so true!

I heard the assistant principal at my sons' middle school give her dress code talk to parents the other night. She actually made it funny and entertaining. She says that the schools deal with clothing issues all the time, every day, because it is the nature of teenagers to challenge WHATEVER the rules are. You can never make a set of rules that cover all possible situations, because the kids will ALWAYS think of something you haven't thought of.

She says if a kid gets sent to her office for "crack" (showing it, that is) she has zip ties that she puts through two belt loops on the side and cinches up the pants tighter. She said, deadpan, "They don't like that."

If a girl gets sent up for a shirt that is too small or tight and shows too much cleavage or nipples or midriff, or a skirt that is too short, she has to change into one of the ugly, unstylish shirts or skirts they have on hand at the school. "They don't like that."

If a shirt advertises drugs or alcohol, they have to flip it wrong side out. Problem solved.

For repeated problems, they start calling the parents to bring alternative clothing to the school.

Teenage clothing has been an issue since the dawn of time. Parents have to accept that there must to be some rules in school and buy their kids' clothing accordingly. Schools have to accept that a lot of time is going to be spent on the issue, and that if they deal with it calmly and with a little humor, it's easier for everyone.

[enlightenment]

61. Love the zip tie!

I absolutely agree with your perspective -- positions somewhere in the middle, accompanied by a little humor, get most kids safely through school and beyond.

We girls picketed in 6th grade for the right to wear muumuus, which were all the rage (DOD school in Japan, late 60s). The school objected to long dresses -- we saw them as both fashionable and a way to have a little more freedom to sit sloppily or slouch on the ground, since our legs were covered.

It's all relative.

And having said that -- I really dislike seeing little girls wearing heels and sequins. Particularly the little belly shirts with the provocative messages. NOT cute. They grow up so quickly; why rush it?

on edit: spelling.

[JCMach1]

26. My Kids go to a British Curriulum school and wear uniforms

It saves time and money for parents!!!

Sorry, but fashion isn't a right!

[JCMach1]

27. Hey, it also frees-up $$$ to buy nicer clothes for your kids when

they aren't at school...

It's great.

[tenshi816]

39. My kids are in a British Catholic school,

so naturally they wear uniforms and I agree with you. The uniform trousers and sweaters are fairly inexpensive but virtually indestructible (I'd just about swear they teflon coat the pants because nothing - mud, for instance - seems to stick to them), and it frees up money for clothes they want to wear on their own time.

It also save time in the mornings - no dithering about what to wear to school.

[JCMach1]

60. Fashion would get insane here in the UAE if the freed the kids up

too much wealth and the population (especially among the young) is hyper fashion conscious.

[newswolf56]

28. A hat ban is outrageously unhealthy. Hats are essential...

in winter and equally essential to keep the sun off your head and face during the summer -- especially now with global warming and the radical increase in ultraviolet radiation due to ozone depletion.

Apart from that, I think mandatory school uniforms are an excellent idea: prevents the rich kids from flaunting their expensive clothing and rubbing everybody's noses in their daddies' money, protects the regular kids from rich-kid-driven fashion status-seeking the regular kids and their parents can't afford, keeps the ghetto kids from wearing gang colors.

But I can't imagine (or even understand) the unspeakably bad health practice of a hat ban, especially in an extreme climate like Illinois: sub-zero in winter, high 90s-low 100s from May through September. In the cold you lose 35 percent of your body heat off your head, and more than 15 minutes in direct 90/100 degree sunlight and 'ol Sol starts cooking your brain. Hope somebody reading this thread calls these school-system idiots on this insane hat ban in time to save the kids genuine injury.

(The most excruciatingly painful sunburn I ever got was on the top of my head -- this at age 15 through a flat-top haircut -- one day I stupidly decided not to wear a hat while trout fishing on the South Branch of the Au Sable River in Northern Lower Michigan. The burn was painful within an hour -- at which time I started wearing a big red handkerchief as a bandanna -- but by then it was too late; even keeping the bandanna wet made no difference, and the day was ruined: one of those momma-told-you-so lessons you never forget.)

[donco6]

29. The ban is only for inside the building.

Last I checked, it was pretty difficult to get a sunburn from flourescent lighting!

[newswolf56]

37. Alas, many school districts have imposed hat bans that forbid...

students the wearing of hats at any time during the school day whether on or off school property (on school buses, public transport, etc.) -- more of the unbelievably stupid "zero tolerance" policies so beloved of our current crop of "education" majors and their corporate masters. But it's not just so-called "educators"; in one instance I heard of, a major shopping mall tried to ban hat-wearing by anyone under 18: since the mall's customer base included rural folks, this went over like the proverbial pregnant pole vaulter and was quickly dropped.

In any case it was because of these draconian, even-off-campus hat bans that I reacted as I did; doffing your hat indoors -- at least if you are male -- was simply considered proper conduct in the long-ago years of my youth. :)

_________
Edit: tired-eye typo.

[SoCalDem]

69. There are hats and then there are HATS

The ones worn on the way to school to keep the cold out, are not usually worn all day long as a political/philosphical statement :)

and as for the dyed hair..they just needed to take it one more step..No UNNATURAL hair colors.. Blue & purple hair is usually not found in nature:)

[JackDragna]

31. I favor school uniforms.

I remember the words of my high school choir teacher, who told us the reason we all wore robes when singing was to remind ourselves that our time singing was sober and serious. There's a change in attitude in people who are in a uniform. As someone who has taught at schools requiring uniforms and schools not requiring them, there is a definite seriousness to the kids in uniform lacking in the other kids. I never felt the uniforms stifled individuality, either: my fellow teachers and I still knew plenty about individual students and their quirks.

[Irreverend IX]

33. Dress codes are an attempt...

...to solve problems at schools that stem from deep-seated social issues. As with many legislated fixes, it's only a band-aid over a larger problem. Paying higher salaries in order to hire better teachers and encourage curiosity and exploration among students would help a lot more than banning bobby pins.

[RoyGBiv]

35. Well said n/t

[RoyGBiv]

34. What I think ...

I think dress codes that seek to enforce uniformity are one more method of enforcing uniformity.

In case that is too cryptic, let me add this. A recent survey of high-school students concluded that a majority think that, in essence, US citizens have too many freedoms. The study was conducted in such a way that a conclusion was gathered from a practical question, e.g. should this person have the right to say this thing. "This thing" is something the SCOTUS has deemed is protected under the 1st Amendment, but the students aren't told that. What this has to do with a restrictive dress code is simply this. With things like this, we teach our kids from a very young age that rights have limits. The infringment upon those rights is slow and almost impercetible and seem to have logic behind them, just like a "dress code." And yes I am saying that enforcing stringent dress codes teach kids that you cannot crticize the government if that criticism is deemed by authority (the governmenta) to be harmful.

[Heidi]

41. If I could recommend a single pot for Greatest,

you'd have my vote. :thumbsup:

[Toots]

53. While I agree with your sentiment in general I have to say kids don't have

"rights" in school. They are there to learn how to get along in society and to learn basic and advanced subjects. For instance they don't have a right to talk whenever they feel like it as it disrupts the class well if clothing is speech then why doesn't the same logic apply. It does and the courts have ruled that the school has the right to restrict certain clothing. Gang colors or bikinis for instance. I am not convinced "uniforms" are the answer but restricted clothing is a must. I think body piercings should also be restricted while in school. After school kids can wear and do whatever their parents allow but while in school there has to be some discipline.

[kath]

57. "Kids don't have "rights" in school" - !!! Jeebus H. Christ on a trailer

hitch.

Millions would disagree with that statement, including Supreme Court justices. Students do not "shed their constitutional rights when they enter the schoolhouse door." See Tinker v. Des Moines.

[Toots]

58. Actually they do

and the courts have upheld the schools time and time again. There was a case just a few weeks ago about a girl wanting to wear a shirt with the Confererate Flag on it. The school said she could not and the court upheld the school. There is a very important case going before the Supreme Court right now about a high school student from Juneau Alaska who displayed a banner off school grounds and not connected to any school activity that said "Bong Hits for Jesus". The student was suspended for two weeks and he took it to court. The court ruled in the schools favor and he appealed. His appeal won and now the school is appealing to the US Supreme Court and guess who is representing them before the Court? Ken Starr from Clinton Impeachment fame, Pro Bono. The courts have been pretty solid on restricting kids while in the school building or on school grounds but this case is way beyond that. Now they want to restrict a kids speech any place at any time and we have a very right wing court so the school will probably win this one as well.

[Ms. Toad]

93. You are aware that Tinker v. Des Moines Bd of Education

IS a supreme court case - about wearing black armbands to protest the Vietnam war, in school, during school hours - and the students won. That case has not been overturned.

[RoyGBiv]

62. No rights?

So, if the dress code had a provision requiring self-identification of religious preference, the student would have no recourse?

To use an example more pertinent to what takes place today, I have been more successful than I thought I could be so far in instilling in my daughter the idea that gender roles are social constructions and are not inherently right or wrong. Many dress codes, but especially these uniform dress codes, seek to enforce the very same gender roles I do not want my daughter to be forced to accept. And she very much does have the fundamental right not to accept that role.

After school kids can wear and do whatever their parents allow but while in school there has to be some discipline.

Assuming no valid laws are being broken, by what authority does the government claim the power to discipline anyone, child or adult?

As for what the courts have ruled, I think you need to look deeper into that. The ability of a (public) school to restrict clothing is not the same as requiring a uniform model of clothing. Clothing may be restricted under the same sort of legal philosophy that prohibits yelling "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire. I am well aware that some school districts are choosing to interpret such things very broadly and enforcing dress codes I do not believe are defensible. The problem is that no one in *most* of those districts is challenging it. And the reason for that brings us full circle. Kids and their parents before them have slowly, almost imperceptibly come to believe that rights have limits, or more to the point, that security trumps freedom.

[Toots]

92. I do agree with you and do not think it is right but it is the case.

See my post # 58 as there is an important case developing right now...

[RoyGBiv]

94. Interesting ...

Seems *I* need to look deeper into this. I am ashamed to admit I was not aware of this case.

Do you by chance have a case citation, i.e. Plantiff v. Defendant? I read Findlaw regularly and would like to look into this.

[knitter4democracy]

54. I never saw that in my students.

They had no trouble saying exactly what they thought about me, my teaching methods, what we were reading, or the school admins.

The kids who are scared to criticize too much are that way without any school pressure. They've been convinced that criticizing a teacher means that you'll get a lower grade, that fighting the school admins means that you won't get any help getting into Harvard (or whatever their school of choice is), and that going along gets them more of what they want. Thankfully, most kids I taught seriously disagreed with that kind of thinking.

I don't understand where those kids are in that survey. I definitely didn't have that many kids scared to criticize too much.

[kath]

55. Great post , Roy!!

You nailed it - school uniforms are a great way to condition the sheeple to being, uh, sheeple.

Also smacks of militarism a bit...

Along the same lines, I highly recommend this piece by Alfie Kohn about "character education":
How Not to Teach Values: A Critical Look at Character Education
http://www.padnet.org/archkohn.html


Excerpt:
Character education curricula also stress the importance of things like "respect," "responsibility," and "citizenship." But these are slippery terms, frequently used as euphemisms for uncritical deference to authority. Under the headline "The Return of the 'Fourth R' " - referring to "respect, responsibility, or rules" - a news magazine recently described the growing popularity of such practices as requiring uniforms, paddling disobedient students, rewarding those who are compliant, and "throwing disruptive kids out of the classroom."23 Indeed, William Glasser observed some time ago that many educators "teach thoughtless conformity to school rules and call the conforming child 'responsible.' "24 I once taught at a high school where the principal frequently exhorted students to "take responsibility." By this he meant specifically that they should turn in their friends who used drugs.
Exhorting students to be "respectful" or rewarding them if they are caught being "good" may likewise mean nothing more than getting them to do whatever the adults demand. Following a lengthy article about character education in the New York Times Magazine, a reader mused, "Do you suppose that if Germany had had character education at the time, it would have encourage children to fight Nazism or to support it?"25 The more time I spend in schools that are enthusiastically implementing character education programs, the more I am haunted by that question.

<snip>

In the case of proponents of character education, I believe the answer to this riddle is quite different. The reason they are promoting techniques that seem strikingly ineffective at fostering autonomy or ethical development is that, as a rule, they are not trying to foster autonomy or ethical development. The goal is not to support or facilitate children's social and moral growth, but simply to "demand good behavior from students," in Ryan's words.37 The idea is to get compliance, to make children act the way we want them to. Indeed, if these are the goals, then the methods make perfect sense - the lectures and pseudo-discussions, the slogans and the stories that conk students on the head with their morals. David Brooks, who heads the Jefferson Center for Character Education, frankly states, "We're in the advertising business." The way you get people to do something, whether it's buying Rice Krispies or becoming trustworthy, is to "encourage conformity through repeated messages."38 The idea of selling virtues like cereal nearly reaches the point of self-parody in the Jefferson Center's curriculum, which includes the following activity: "There's a new product on the market! It's Considerate Cereal. Eating it can make a person more considerate. Design a label for the box. Tell why someone should buy and eat this cereal. Then list the ingredients."39
If "repeated messages" don't work, then you simply force students to conform: "Sometimes compulsion is what is needed to get a habit started," says William Kilpatrick.40 We may recoil from the word "compulsion," but it is the premise of that sentence that really ought to give us pause. When education is construed as the process of inculcating habits - which is to say, unreflective actions - then it scarcely deserves to be called education at all. It is really, as Alan Lockwood say, and attempt to get "mindless conformity to externally imposed standards of conduct."41
<snip>

[RoyGBiv]

63. Thanks for the link!

I'm bookmarking to read this closely later.

[kath]

73. You're welcome. I really like Kohn's views on education/learning. The

article I linked is a chapter in his book "What to Look for in a Classroom: and other Essays". The book also contains a chapter about school uniforms.

"Of the dozens of 'experts' on what's wrong (and right) in U.S. schools, only a handful are truly worth reading; Kohn has long been one of the soundest." --Booklist

From self-esteem to school uniforms, from grade inflation to character education, Alfie Kohn raises provocative questions about the status quo in this collection of incisive essays--challenging us to reconsider some of our most basic assumptions about children and education. Whether he is explaining why cooperative learning can be so threatening or why detracking is so fiercely opposed, Kohn offers a fresh, informed, and frequently disconcerting perspective on the major issues in education.

In the end, his critical examination of current practice is complemented by a vision of what schooling ought to be. Kohn argues for giving children more opportunity to participate in their own schooling, for transforming classrooms into caring communities, and for providing the kind of education that taps and nourishes children's curiosity. Through all these essays Kohn calls us back to our own ideals, showing us how we can be more effective at helping students to become good learners and good people.

"Kohn's message, if heeded, could inspire a productive revolution in America's fatigued regime of public education." --Publisher's Weekly

"This collection...reminds us that many schools have veered off course in their day-to-day business. And it's a primer that, if taken seriously, can put schools back on the right track." --Educational Leadership

"Informative, inspiring, and thought-provoking." --Library Journal

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:zEE69uA-T7EJ:www.fishpond.co.nz/Books/Nonfiction/Philosophy/product_info.php%3Fproducts_id%3D1091599+kohn+school+uniforms&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=22




Kohn has also written some powerful stuff about the "standards" movement and standardized-testin-mania. A lot of his writing is available at his website:
http://www.alfiekohn.org/articles.htm

Also check out Susan Ohanian's writing:
http://www.susanohanian.org/

Here's an article discussing, among other things, how Kohn and Ohanian have been attacked by the educational establishment:
http://www.america-tomorrow.com/bracey/EDDRA/bracey11.htm

An Ohanian article about her run-in with Gwinett Co, GA officials concerning their test, (and other testing issues):
http://www.pdkintl.org/kappan/koha0101.htm

[Vidar]

40. As a former teacher, I have no problem with school uniforms.

[Ms. Toad]

95. As a former teacher, I do.

I spent far too much of my class time enforcing silly rules that had nothing to do with educating my students. The dress code was the primary silly rule that took 5 -10 minutes a day out of a 40-45 minute period of the classes that were struggling the hardest.

I am no longer in teaching, in part, because the school administration required me to focus on things that were extraneous to education, while failing to even acknowledge the bigger, more difficult to address barriers to learning (like the student who physically assaulted me and sexually assaulted a student who went unpunished). My experience is that the better schools like my daughter's don't need dress codes (and it takes time away from education to enforce them, with the risk that the code will be used as a proxy to deal with students whose view of society/politics fails to match the norm), and it doesn't even come close to putting a band-aid on the tragedy of schools like the one in which I used to teach.

[saltpoint]

42. I'd include blue jeans just as a practical matter. The downside of

school dress codes is that they suggest everybody is indistinct, that individuality is not being fostered if sameness is enforced. Without good teachers with good instincts for their students, it can become brain-numbing and stultifying.

The upside of dress codes is that kids of families who are struggling financially are treated no differently than kids of wealthier families. It potentially encourages teaching to the child's abilities and not to a social or economic class.

Hire teachers good enough to find the individual in absolutely anyone, and after that, the dress code provides a kind of equality for kids, no matter their parents' annual income.

[marions ghost]

44. I went to a school with uniforms and also schools without

I'm here to say that strict dress codes or simple uniforms (through high school) do not stifle anyone's creativity or individualism. What is more conformist than having to have the latest overpriced duds because one's friends have them? This kind of "freedom" is over-rated. Today I am the biggest individualist I know and work in areas of personal expression/creativity. I LOL at the idea that my own creativity was stifled by wearing a uniform for a time in school. I would not limit hairdos and jewellry too much, that's too Draconian--just clothes. I understand why jeans would be out although they're practical--"cool jeans" assume way too much importance. Most schools already have dress codes and parents should help make them work.

The idea that individuality is expressed in who has the most dynamic clothes at school is just a ridiculous argument. If clothes are your art, then go wild on weekends. But for most, it's just all about social pressure which keeps the clothing industry fat. Kids are obsessed with having just the right thing on at all times...especially harmful to girls, but also big for boys. School is a fashion parade. WHAT is that teaching them?

I am happy to have had the experience of not worrying about what to wear for one time in my life and looking at my friend's faces more than their clothes. My family never had enough money to keep up appearances and in that sense wearing uniforms was profoundly liberating. Dress codes promote a less materialistic attitude at an age when kids can't really make up their own minds about consumerism. This is a good thing. Seems to me the knee-jerk response to dress codes might have something to do with irrational fears of The Young Pioneers, Hitler Youth, Mao jackets. I don't think dress codes (or even uniforms) lead to becoming a Young Republican or anything. If anything 'clothes anxiety' does.

[saltpoint]

52. Okey doke.

[phylny]

43. I guess there's a difference in my mind in a dress code and a

uniform requirement. I don't really have a problem with a uniform requirement, because I think for kids with little money, it would be a godsend.

The requirements here do seem more like a uniform requirement. My kids have been in a few schools with dress codes, and at least in two of three places, it was enforced with little to no problem.

The basic things prohibited were skimpy clothing on boys or girls, no underwear showing through or above or below clothing, no alcohol, drugs, or offensive pictures or writing on shirts, no hats or jackets, that sort of thing. The majority of rules were in place to reduce gang activity and to keep the boys from staring at the girls' underwear and the girls from staring at the boys' underwear :)

[seabeyond]

45. i dont like it. jeans and tshirt. cant get any cheaper. did private

school dress code and was hell every morning with youngest getting him into polo and kids would rebel with khaki. i dont like khaki either. we are a jean family. khaki i insist on loafer type shoe. not tennis shoes. we prefer tennis shoes. we have money and i DONT spend money on clothes. i am sorry for the kids that do without and feel bad with the kids that have more money that reflect it in their clothes. but my kids have no issue with someone dressing more expensively than they do. end of every school year, shoes have holes and jeans have hole and tshirts are far from new looking. they have no issue what so ever in the clothes reflecting their worth as people. i wouldnt allow it, they dont experience it. and again i say, i have the money to buy them the latest fad and or expensive shoe or whatever and we dont do any of that.

i am opposed to dresscode

i would rather see parent teach their children to not be bothered by outside appearance. and yes, i think as parent we are quite capable. i dont see my kids as special, ergo able to not be bothered whereas the need for other children is there.

totally opposed to khaki and polo and dont think it would be cheaper

[napi21]

46. I also wore uniforms all through HS. It was great!

You never had to worry about what to wear each day, it eliminated the "I'm better than you" attitude of the kids whose families had $$, and it really was cheaper than having to buy a lot of different outfits.

I'm all for it!

[BlackVelvet04]

47. Oh Good GOD.....

yes, let's turn the kids into little khaki wearing clones.
:eyes:

Does anybody remember how hard we worked in the 70's to get rid of these dress codes.....girls couldn't wear pants, no jeans, yada yada yada.

Parents need to be parents and make sure the kids are dressed appropriately. Don't cave to the kids demands for brand name clothes and shoes. If you can't do that then don't demand everyone dress alike because you are a gutless parent.

[sweetheart]

49. Army green camo

It would be interesting to try a school with a strict
dress code, that all clothes were banned. Then students
would probably be more conscious of their overweight
bodies.

[MazeRat7]

51. There was a dress code when I went to school....

Boys hair could not be over the ears or collar.
No shorts or open toe shoes.
Girls dresses had to cover the knees.
Boys shirt tales had to be tucked in
No tye-dye or "patches" on clothes (seems there was something about bell-bottoms and hip-huggers in there too)

Those are the ones I got in trouble for at least (well not the dress part *grin)
This was late 60's early 70's and the "reasoning" was to discourage us from looking and acting like rock-n-roll listening, war protesting, hippies...

Four decades later, I am their worst nightmare... a well educated, professional, rock-n-roll listening, hippy....

Somehow I don't think this is going to workout any better this time around.

MZr7

[Nobody]

56. I have always hated school dress codes and uniforms

Having worn them.

Kids should be able to wear what they feel comfortable in. When a kid gets to job-holding age, they can conform then.

Most kids dress reasonably anyway.

Here are my comments on the specific items you mentioned:

--No blue jeans or anything denim. (These are things almost every kid already has. It's durable, meaning you only have to buy one or two pairs of jeans per school year. They'll grow out of them before they get ruined, no matter how active your budding athlete.)

--No hats or head coverings of any kind. (Even for Muslim girls? Cancer patients going through chemo? What about wigs?)

--No dyed or streaked hair. (Why is this a big deal?)

--No hair clips or bobby pins. (OK, so I'm trying to grow out my bangs. How do I keep my hair out of my face? Remember I can't wear a hat, either. Are headbands OK?)

--All clothing must be solid colors: khaki, black, navy or white. (Solid colors, fine. Whatever, but what's wrong with prints or other colors? What if your skin tone favors other colors?)

On the surface a dress code sounds reasonable for those of less income, but when the required clothing is not something the kid already has, you have to go out and buy more clothes. You can get all kinds of good clothes of various styles at all price ranges.

Even if you order everyone to dress identically each day, the in crowd will find something else to base their cliquish teenage exclusion on. It's not hard to find something else. The in crowd will exclude you and make your life miserable no matter how the administrators try to dictate sameness.

[kiraboo]

59. When I was an exchange student in New Zealand I found myself

wearing a school uniform for a year. I suppose you could argue that it evens out the haves and have-nots. But there are ways and ways around looking like everybody else. Girls shortened their skirts and altered the blouses so they were tighter. We couldn't wear makeup, so we learned subtle ways to apply it. Even with everybody in a green wool blazer (with matching green underwear... mandatory... I kid you not) it was easy to tell who was "cool" and who was not.

[sweetheart]

97. slapping those shorts

As i recall, the New zealand school uniform had short pants... so in
the school bus, the big bully kids would slap your legg R E A L L Y
Hard to leave a long-lasting hand-shaped red mark on your legg, or as
prelude to a white-maori fight.

It wasn't cool to be a racist, no matter the uniform, and that was not
made any different by the clothes.

[kiraboo]

98. Short pants in the summer and long ones in the "winter" (and

I use the term "winter" v. loosely... I'm in Maine right now). And at that time there were no school buses. We biked, which was why the girls had to wear matching underwear! I see you're in Scotland. How do you know about the NZ uniforms?

[sweetheart]

99. We wore shorts in the winter in Matamata

I really loved new zealand. I learned 2 things living round there
that left me ponderous... 1. that the white people basically stole
the island presuming that the indigeonous people would not be able
to enforce a verbal contract, not realizign that the local people had
actually memorized a verbal contract in a foreign language.

2. The race/who has rights on that island chain is a long battle
for which i have no interest of entering the franchise-battle on
behalf of the colonial culture..

Scotland has a looooooooooottttta ties with new zealand, nevertheless.

I just hated those "slaps" and they cured me of any love of shorts!! in
a school uniform.

I like the Maori's.. it felt unfair the racism, and the whites were
by-far the more unsubtle and crude of the two (AT the time, Imho).

[kiraboo]

100. I went at sixteen years old. It would have been hard not to notice

the parallels between the treatment of Maoris in NZ and, for example, hispanics in the U.S. We initially landed in Auckland and part of our orientation involved visits to various cultural sites which "celebrated" the Maori people. But it was difficult to miss the tin-roofed huts in back streets as we made our way to this place and that. I have to mention, however, that the first (white) family I stayed with had three children, two of their own and one adopted boy, a Maori. And I agree, they are a very kind people. Gentle.

[sweetheart]

102. time and the mix

That was early 70's, like a gazillion dead years ago,
and i wouldn't be suprised if the whole island chain is much transformed.

My exposure to the real-time event-oriented artificial intelligence software
technology university teaching in NZ is first rate, .. liike 111rst rate over
most western nations... they get it in lemuria.

[kiraboo]

104. Wow. In Lemuria? Laugh. (private joke, and boring unless you're me).

I was there 1979-1980. I admit, I haven't kept up. And I know nothing about what they're doing re AI software technology there or anywhere else for that matter! I'm just kinda dumb, I guess. :shrug:

[sweetheart]

105. They gots some real smarties

In AWKland, event'based forward-chaining, very interesting stuff, they gots.

Sadly, microshit, has she extremely (read: cesspool) low expectations regarding
the performance of software sysems. No-shit, if i were seeking a bachelors or a
masters in compter science with a real-time computing element, new zealand would
be in the top... don't know if it has anything to do with the ol' lemuria myth but
it fits, so why not wear it.


:-) sheep chasing....
..

.....

..


.
.
..
.


..
.

.
.
.
sleep.

[WinkyDink]

64. Banning denim/jeans is the ultimate in STUPIDITY.

The last time a school did this was somewhere circa 1965.

Good grief.

[knitter4democracy]

66. I had a thought on this today about gendered clothing.

In the schools I taught in, both sexes had to wear the same clothes for the most part. Boys and girls had to wear white polos or Oxford shirts with dark blue or khaki pants. The girls could wear skirts, and many did, but many didn't, as they just weren't practical much of the time.

At my daughter's school, it's the same way--both sexes wear the same base, just with different colors and a few more options, as it's an elementary.

Here's my thought: in that kind of uniform system, it also helps with gender issues. If a girl is more comfortable in men's clothes, she can wear them and not stand out as anyone different from anyone else. If a guy wants to wear more feminine-styled clothes, he can't wear skirts, but he can also dress like the girls do for the most part.

In public schools without uniform codes, in my experience, the gender issues were in everyone's face all the time. Girls had to be ultrafeminine or be questioned about their sexuality. Boys had to be ultramasculine or be questioned about their sexuality (usually in a violent way).

The nice thing with a well-written uniform code is that it not only can blur the socioeconomic lines but also the gender lines as well. That's a good thing.

[SmokingJacket]

67. I think it's great.

Kids should be encouraged to express their individuality verbally, academically, and creatively... clothes are meaningless distractions.

[ecstatic]

68. The regulations on hair styles bother me

How can they keep track of who is dying their hair and whose is natural? And what in the world is the issue with bobby pins? Sometimes those are necessary when wearing up-dos. Other than that, I support dress codes. Students should focus on school work and not clothes.

[kath]

70. Here is a webpage with lots of links to research about school uniforms:

Hearsay and Myths Regarding Effectiveness of Uniforms
http://www.aprod.org/myths.htm

[Ayesha]

71. No, no, no!

I'm in favor of a few restrictions, such as no clothes full of holes or clothes where your ass/boobs/underwear hang out, but kids should have the right to express themselves through their clothing. School is where kids learn AND figure out who they are, not a place to be brainwashed and made into clones. These kinds of policies unfairly target kids who dress goth, punk, or urban, while making "preppy" the norm.

I went to a private school with a dress code for two years and HATED it. I would never send my (future) kids to a school where they couldn't wear jeans, tennis shoes, or clothes with writing on them. And hair clips? WTF? Some styles REQUIRE pony tail holders, barettes, etc. especially when exercising or bending one's head to read or study.

[last_texas_dem]

74. I support some basic restrictions, but...

...I think in many cases districts go overboard in deciding what restrictions are "necessary." I understand restrictions regarding showing too much flesh (though how much is "too much" can be subjective) and restrictions on provocative messages on t-shirts, clothes advertising cigarettes or alcohol, etc. However, I think restrictions regarding hair color (who cares?) and the like are excessive. And I don't understand restricting the wearing of jeans.

I don't support school uniforms, either. I don't see that it really solves the problem of class conflict, either. Kids will find ways to display their status in one way or another, whether it's the brand or style of their otherwise identical "uniform" shirts and jeans or through the other items they carry around with them at school.

Although there may be some cases of kids dealing with junk at school because of the clothes they wear, I think it's a cop-out to decide that uniforms are necessary because of the pressure that kids have to keep up with the fashions and styles of the other kids and it's better to attempt to remove them from that "problem." When I was in high school (at a school that had basic dress code restrictions, but not uniforms) I thought trying to keep up with fashions was so dumb that I purposely wore almost exclusively plain, solid color t-shirts with jeans, and I never had any problem because of it. And I wasn't some extremely well-adjusted kid; I had just been taught not to give a shit about that kind of stuff. (Maybe I took it to an extreme partly out of disgust with people who did... I dunno.) But I know I would've felt differently if I was being required to wear the same solid color t-shirts and jeans as all the other kids. I think uniforms are often an extreme overreaction to an issue that is already made into a bigger problem than it really deserves to be.

[Captain Hilts]

75. For girls, dressing for school has become a competitive enterprise.

Not good.

Compete in a forum that might help you in the future: class, track, best volunteer program, or whatever.

And, yes, "fashion" dictates young girls walk around in shrink wrap. Also not good.

[slackmaster]

81. Yes, very true even in middle school

My girlfriend's 14-YO daughter often tries to beg a ride to school from me, because she's embarrassed to be seen getting off of a public transit bus.

:eyes:

[northzax]

77. I am completely in favor of uniforms

how can children learn that they are supposed to serve the State, if they don't get used to uniforms early on? I suggest brown shirts, jodhpurs and riding boots. maybe an American Flag armband?

Private schools can do all the uniforming they want (and I wore plenty) there is no place for it in public schools.

[Hippo_Tron]

78. Somebody explain to me the problem with hats

I know that it's rooted back to the days when men actually wore hats and it was customary for them to take them off indoors, but is this the only reason that kids aren't allowed to wear baseball caps to school? Surely there must be a better reason.

[knitter4democracy]

101. I was told two in my student teaching days.

First of all, gang or group affiliation can be shown in hat choice and how it's worn.

Secondly, baseball caps are known cheating tools. The kids tape answer keys or whatever under the bills.

My only thing was that it makes it hard to make eye contact with a student if he's wearing a baseball cap. I didn't like that--hard to see what he's thinking that way.

[Bridget Burke]

80. Uniforms are worn in many Houston schools....

Starting them in the first grade is easier than foisting them upon whiny teenagers. Simple shirts, slacks & shorts are included--plus skirts for girls who want them. So schools don't need to waste time interpreting Dress Codes.

Blue jeans are now a fashion item--a pair can cost hundreds of dollars. Shorts or skirts are much more comfortable in Houston's heat than heavy denim.

I knew kids who went to Catholic schools in the old days--the expensive schools, with tweed, plaid, etc. Those kids grew up into some of the wildest "adults" I've known--hardly passive clones.

Let kids express their individuality in what they say or do--rather than in how much money they have to spend on clothes.

[noonwitch]

82. I think dress codes are okay, but this one is too restrictive.

We had a code when I was in school. No shorts, no mini-skirts, no belly-revealing, no boob-revealing, boys had to wear shirts, no offensive t-shirts.

We could wear jeans. I don't think public schools should ever ban denim-it is a practical fabric that washes easily and is always popular. What private schools do is up to them.

[Odin2005]

84. Orverly strict dress codes reek of fascist-like conformism

And codes that require girls to wear skirts are downright sexist.

[MsTryska]

85. I like it.

incidentally hats should never be worn indoors anyway. (or at least that's how i was raised)

I think school uniforms are a great idea in public schools.

[The2ndWheel]

87. The perfect student

A hermaphrodite, who enjoys classical music, critical thinking, but also participates in sporting activities, goofing off, has boobs, but covers them up, but not so much you don't know they're there, is poor, but rich, feels empowered by wearing but also not wearing skirts, is gay, but not gay, beats on the other kids, but is also gentle and kind, very attentive in class, but also the troublemaker in the back of the room shooting spitballs(spitballs!!!!!) at the girl's heads, is always on time, but never shows up, and feels comfortable with either the corporation or the state molding them to fit the ideal human model.

That should end all debate. I think we're done here.

[bleedingheart]

89. It would be a slice of heaven if we had a school uniform....

1. Cheaper...just 2-3 uniforms would be enough for the week...
2. No fussing, no worries not arguments about not having anything to wear..
3. Make mornings go far more smoothly at my house
4. One less thing for me to tend to...

edit: I have two kids in public school.

[Norquist Nemesis]

90. Anyone else remember dress code/no dress code transition?

I was in fifth grade when we girls were first allowed to wear "pants". They had to be a pants suit (dress with matching pants under). We could wear "coulots" (sp) which were similar to a shorts jumper but with a panel on front and back so they looked like a dress. It was implemented mid-year so we were especially thrilled that we FINALLY didn't have to freeze when standing and waiting for bus or walking to school.

Seventh grade was the first time we were allowed to wear jeans. We had tie-dyed shirts, jeans, bandanas, etc. Patriotic jeans with American flags and peace signs on the red-white-and-blue. Jeans with bands of paisley sewn to bottom so they were long and 'fashionable'. We wore t-shirts with anti-war and other political messages. And it was the first time we could chew gum in class! :thumbsup:

By high-school, some were trying to push it and see what the limits were. Halter tops, half tops, and tube tops had become popular. Not to mention shorts as short as you could make them and still have them in a category of pants. A few were sent home at the beginning of the year for showing their belly-button. Others for having a beer or alcohol ad on their t-shirt. Baseball caps were fine (although some teachers laid down the rules in their class it was not allowed).

I can't recall anyone I was jealous of for their clothing. Envious of others who looked good in their clothing, yes, but that's because I was always heavy. Wearing the same clothes wouldn't have changed that.

It sounds to me like the school district through pressure from some parents thinks it is losing control of the kids and the dress code is one way to begin taking back control. There do have to be limits on kids. But the dress code debate is going to be another one of those things that gets pulled off the shelf every twenty or thirty years as part of the solution to teaching kids how to be "good citizens".

[Endangered Specie]

91. I'm still on the fence when it comes to school uniforms...

If they are going to do that, they must help finance poorer families to buy the clothes.


and by the way, if the purpose of school uniforms is to keep boys/guys from looking at schoolgirls all day, I advise you to google "Japanese school girl"... that idea may not work out quite like you think.

[MrSlayer]

96. My kids have a dress code at their public school.

Khaki pants and school shirt. It's no big deal to them.

[Kerrytravelers]

103. For me, it depends upon the reason for the dress code.

If it will modify behavior and change the overall functioning of the school, I'm all for it. If it's a way for some conservative fundies to squelch any lefty free speech, then I'd the first one on the picket line.

I teach public school. We have a loose dress code that the parents seem to like. The local stores give a 40% discount on the clothes and they aren't tacky. Mostly it's just basic solid colors. There is no logos allowed because of gang issues in our area. The gangs adopt the logos as meanings, and because it changes so frequently, it is so hard for us to keep up with everything.

[mondo joe]

106. I'm okay about most of it BUT the hair. Clothes can be changed out

for the circumstance, but your hair can't be. For the school to dictate no hair coloring goes too far by dictating the apppearance of students outside the school.

[nemo137]

107. Honestly, I'd have not cared if we had them when I was in school

It's not a facist mindcontrol plot, it's a way of cutting down distractions and promoting a sense of solidarity. Although the "no bobby pins" restriction seems kind of draconian (I don't know how my sister would survive without bobbypins).

[eridani]

109. I wore uniforms at my Catholic high school

It was a relief not to have to fuss about what I wore during the week, and it eliminated an important visual clue to economic status.

Can't see banning messing with your hair, though.

[Yollam]

111. I'm all for dress codes and uniforms.

Public schools are paid for by taxpayers. They exist to provide a basic education for kids so that they can be productive members of society, not as an outlet for them to show their "creativity" :eyes: (read: copy other members of their own clique) through fashion. I'd much rather my kid focus on the lessons than be concerned with keeping up with what the rich and cool kids are wearing. Uniformity helps a lot in breaking down class barriers. A lot of people confuse clothes with "individuality", but it is very rare that anyone dresses in any way that is remotely individual. The goths copy the other goths, the hip-hoppers copy the other hip-hoppers, the hicks copy the hicks, etc. Besides, true individuality is expressed through actions, not anything as superficial as clothing. I.M.O.