Rumsfeld?
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0605/04/pzn.01.htmlPAULA ZAHN, CNN ANCHOR: And good evening, everyone. Glad to have you with us tonight.
Here's what's happening at this moment.
CNN is asking Capitol Hill Police for the official report on a 3:00 a.m. car crash involving Congressman Patrick Kennedy, son of Senator Edward Kennedy. Patrick Kennedy ran his car into a barricade. He wasn't injured. He claims no alcohol was involved, but sources tell us, police say he seemed to be intoxicated.
A budget battle rages tonight, after the Senate approves an extra $109 billion, most of it for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The president is threatening a veto if $17 billion aren't cut.
And now our nightly look at gas prices. We call it "Crude Awakenings." The states with the highest gas prices are in red. The lowest are in green. The average price tonight appears to be on hold. Unleaded regular is $2.92. That's the same as yesterday. We will keep on following the trend for you.
Now on to the CNN "Security Watch" and an absolutely electrifying confrontation over the war in Iraq. Just a few hours ago, in Atlanta, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld was confronted by angry anti-war protesters, who called him a liar.
The secretary forcefully denied that, but a speech aimed at defending the Bush administration's Iraq policy suddenly turned into a dramatic debate over the reasons why America went to war in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN (voice-over): The audience of international policy experts was supposed to be friendly. Not everyone was.
(BOOING)
ZAHN: First, a heckler was shouted down. And, as the audience applauded and Secretary Rumsfeld laughed, she was escorted out. But there were more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You lied.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of here. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You lied that Iraq's oil would pay for the war!
ZAHN: This time Rumsfeld didn't laugh.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: You know, that charge is frequently leveled against the president for one reason or another, and it is so wrong and so unfair and so destructive of a free system, where people need to trust each other and government.
ZAHN: There were other protesters. But the most electrifying moment came during the question-and-answer session.
RAY MCGOVERN, FORMER CIA ANALYST: I'm Ray McGovern, a 27-year veteran of the Central Intelligence Agency.
Why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary and that has caused these kinds of casualties? Why?
RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I -- I haven't lied. I did not lie then.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
ZAHN: A confrontation with McGovern turned into a debate.
RUMSFELD: I'm not in the intelligence business. They gave the world their honest opinion. It appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were.
RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were, and we were just...
MCGOVERN: You said you knew where they were near Tikrit, near Baghdad, and north, east, south and west of there. Those are your words.
RUMSFELD: My words -- my words were that -- no, no, no wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.
MCGOVERN: This is America, huh?
(APPLAUSE)
RUMSFELD: You're getting plenty of play, sir.
ZAHN: The impromptu debate then shifted to the alleged bulletproof evidence of ties between Saddam Hussein and al Qaeda, which the 9/11 Commission report says didn't exist. But Rumsfeld pointed to the presence of al Qaeda operative Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
RUMSFELD: Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the prewar period. That is a fact.
MCGOVERN: Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. That's also ...
RUMSFELD: He was also in Baghdad.
MCGOVERN: Yes, when he needed to go to the hospital. Come on, these people aren't idiots. They know the story.
ZAHN: Secretary Rumsfeld has become a lightning rod for critics of the Iraq war. A half-dozen retired generals have called for his resignation. But President Bush has made it clear that the secretary enjoys his confidence and will stay on the job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: And just before we went on the air tonight, I talked with the man you just saw debating Secretary Rumsfeld. He is a former CIA analyst. His name is Ray McGovern. He happens to be a member of a group called Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity, VIPS, for short. They have been highly critical of the Bush administration's handling of the Iraq war and claim that intelligence was misused to justify it.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZAHN: So, did you go to this speech today with the intent of challenging Secretary Rumsfeld?
RAY MCGOVERN, FORMER CIA ANALYST: I had no predetermined objectives. I just wanted to see what he had to say. But I did get very motivated when the first lady was ejected from -- from the -- from the crowd.
ZAHN: And what was it, then, that you wanted to accomplish by following her rather pointed question?
MCGOVERN: Well, you know, she talked about lies.
And I get very upset when Donald Rumsfeld shakes his head and says, lies, gosh, lies. I hate it when somebody says that our president would tell lies.
Of course, she hadn't said the president. She said Rumsfeld. But he said that lies are fundamentally destructive of the trust, without which government cannot work.
And that's true. And I found myself really agreeing with that.
ZAHN: And, essentially, what he told you is: I never said exactly where the weapons of mass destruction were. I was referring to, we had a pretty darn good idea where the sites were.
MCGOVERN: Well...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAHN: Do you buy what he said today? MCGOVERN: His words were, we know where -- where the WMD are. They're near Tikrit and Baghdad, and north, south, east, and west of there. That's a direct quote.
And when he used that wonderful non sequitur by looking at the uniformed personnel in the front row and saying: "Well, they went in with protective gear; they certainly thought there were weapons of mass destruction there," well, my goodness. Of course, they did, because you, Donald Rumsfeld, told them that they were there.
And, you know, it's not polite to say this, but that was a bald- faced lie. And he should have -- he should have owned up to it, if he wants there to be a modicum of trust.
ZAHN: How much of an axe do you have to grind with Secretary Rumsfeld?
MCGOVERN: It's not a matter of axes to grind. It's a matter of telling the truth.
And we pledged, in my day at the CIA, to tell it without fear or favor, to tell it like it is. And, when I see that corrupted, that is the real tragedy of this whole business.
ZAHN: There was a point where it appeared as though you were going to get kicked out.
MCGOVERN: Yes.
ZAHN: Donald Rumsfeld encouraged whoever I think had their hands on you at the time to let you stay there. Does he get any credit for that today?
MCGOVERN: At first, I thought, well, that was rather gracious.
But, then I got to thinking, I was not abusing the privilege. I was simply asking pointed questions. And for the national TV audience to see me carted away for asking Rumsfeld to explain what any objective observer would call a lie, that wouldn't have been good P.R. So, yes, I'm glad he let me stay. But I think it was for self- interested reasons.
ZAHN: Roy McGovern, we really appreciate your time tonight.
MCGOVERN: You're most welcome, Paula.
ZAHN: Thank you very much.
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