Illegals Fear Random Roundups -->

[Dr. Jones]

Actually I didn't realize that such law enforcement measures have been taking place - not just in the Washington DC area, but all over the country.

I personally think law enforcement of those who are in our country illegally is a good thing. Even better though would be if law enforcement went after the companies who hire these illegals. But overall, perhaps these kinds of roundups would discourage illegal immigration to such a degree that it would lessen the strain on our healhcare systems, our schools, our hospitals, and our state and local governments. And not only that, but it would decrease the number of illegals who have taken American jobs, thus bolstering the ailing American middle class.

Most countries have far stricter immigration laws. In fact, if thousands of Americans crossed the border into Mexico City, marched in the street, and demanded immediate amnesty and citizenship, what do you think would happen? Try jailtime and immediate deportation!

Why is the United States so lax when it comes to illegal immigration? And why, when most other countries are so strict about it, do so many here have it in their heads that illegal immigration is a good thing?

The recent arrests of illegal immigrants after high-profile federal investigations in other states have sparked rampant rumors that law enforcement officials are randomly targeting the Latino community in the Washington region.

Federal and local law enforcement authorities deny that they are conducting random raids on illegal immigrants in the District, Maryland and Virginia. But rumors of roundups at malls, shops and street corners have become the talk of Spanish-language radio.

The stories have spread quickly: One man said two elderly women threw themselves on the ground at a 7-Eleven store on Kenilworth Avenue to avoid getting corralled into a bus of undocumented residents. The leader of an immigrant group said he heard of arrests being made at Columbia Road and 18th Street NW. Reports of buses being stopped in Silver Spring in search of undocumented passengers were heard.

"There's just so much fear," said Grace Rivera-Oven of Germantown, who has a local Spanish-language cable program. "There's a lot of paranoia going on, and people are just afraid."

Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/28/AR2006042802062.html

[MADem]

1. First, they came for the Mexicans....

It's a sad day in America if we ever get USED to seeing mass arrests.

Because one day, they could come for us.

[Dr. Jones]

3. This is not a case of political subversion,

these people are in our country ILLEGALLY. So why shouldn't law enforcement do the job they signed up for and enforce the law in the case of illegal immigration?

[MADem]

4. How do you know?? Bust in and grab all the brown ones, and sort

them out later???

Look, BushCo HELD THE DOOR OPEN for these guys. You're telling me that from when that Chump stole office to just a few months ago, he DIDN'T REALIZE that reducing the number of Border Patrol Officers, cutting their budget and equipment WOULD NOT have an effect????? That he didn't do it DELIBERATELY, so his rich pals in construction could benefit from cheap labor???

[Dr. Jones]

6. Yes, Bush/Fox invited them into our country, along with the corps,

and they still haven't gone after the companies who are hiring these illegals. I wish they WOULD approach it this way. However, my point is this. This kind of law enforcement action will have the effect of discouraging illegals from entering our country in the first place. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing for law enforcement to be doing their jobs?

You are absolutely RIGHT in what Bush did to cut the border patrol agents and their budgets. And yep, he DID do it for his corporate buds. I hope Bush is impeached for this! Or for whatever it doesn't matter, as long as he's impeached.

I think this is what it boils down to. The American public is beginning to demand that something be done about the illegal immigrant situation. My personal prediction is that the outcry will become so great that mass roundups and deportation will become a reality. And if/when this happens, all hell will break loose when the illegals find out they've been LIED TO by Bush and the GOP. Just my opinion, not advocating these policies.

[MADem]

37. It's a HORRIBLE IDEA

Once you get used to seeing brown people rounded up, it's a short step to black people, catholic people, people who are registered Democrats, and so forth. Any group that stands in opposition to the regime becomes a target. We should NEVER, no matter how much we may be tempted by GOP arguments, EVER go for that kind of thing. Ever.

Now, why try to track down a hundred brown skinned gentlemen, when it's so much easier to round up one fatcat?????

The people they should be rounding up are the EMPLOYERS.

Here's my plan:

--Any business hiring illegals; first offense==$100,000 fine PER WORKER. This money goes into a pot to defray airfare costs for people wanting to return to their homelands. If the employer can't pay the fine, his future earnings are docked until it's paid off. No exceptions.

In the interim, the INS will set up an office where people who hire those with green cards or work visas can fax the document to INS, and someone there will compare the number on the card, the photo, and the biometric info to the DATABASE. There's no way you can fake that shit even on the BEST fake green card. If Paco Moreno is using Juan Valdez's number, it will be immediately evident. Eventually, this service will be AUTOMATED. Costs for the service will be payed by the EMPLOYER, who can write it off on their taxes.

--After the office is up and running, the fine stays the same, but is accompanied by a MANDATORY one year jail term, which can be increased to TEN YEARS if the employer is willfully, egregiously, and with knowledge aforethought, hiring vast numbers of undocumented workers.

You think anyone will hang around if there's no work??? You think anyone with a brain will hire if these draconian measures are introduced???

And it's way easier to round up the florid, pink, jellybellied REPUBLICANS who are paying these people slave wages, skim a little cash off the bastards, and infringe upon their liberty so they don't repeat the offense, than having a bunch of fucking helmeted thugs round up people whose ONLY CRIME IS HUNGER.

Of course, the one thing that arresting a single fatcat at a time does NOT produce is FEAR. And BushCo RUNS on FEAR. Knock down doors, whack a few heads, kick 'em when they're down, that's the BushCo way!

Blaming people for coming in when they were damn near issued an engraved invitation by Bush is just INSANE. Nine one one changed everything?? Yeah, it sure did--it cut the budget of the Border Patrol, that's what it did!

This whole 'blame the worker' nonsense is also exactly the bullshit the GOP is wanting everyone to buy. Bush looked the other way while holding the door WIDE open TO KEEP WAGES DEPRESSED for his corporate cronies. Now, the economy is TANKING (can ya feel it???) and those lousy broom pushing jobs will be needed for all of the IT types whose jobs have been offshored, the corporate workers who have been automated out of a job, the assembly line people, the downsized folks who suffered due to mergers, whose jobs are NO LONGER HERE.

Hard times are a-coming....and we gotta get rid of those brownies, so the white folks won't eat up all the welfare and unemployment cash. Gotta put those white folks to work in those "jobs that Americans won't do."

That's the BushCo plan.

[AllieB]

20. At one time it was illegal for blacks to sit in white-only sections

of restaurants. Why aren't they rounding up the owners of the businesses that hire them or fining them huge sums?

[Dr. Jones]

24. But both groups were U.S. citizens.

That comparison is pretty shaky in my opinion, and quite franky, only serves to promulgate the false impression that the illegal immigration issue is all about race.

It has nothing to do with race. This is not a moral issue, it's a LEGAL issue. People are in our country illegally, and the question is what to do about that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

30. Just like blacks sat in restaurants illegally back in the 60s.

And just like 20 of my fellow patriots at Camp Casey have been arrested for sitting in a ditch. Hey it is ILLEGAL in that county!! I suppose you don't support them and the stand they are taking against the bush administration since they are engaging in ILLEGAL behavior?

Daniel Ellsberg went to prison and came out as a convicted felon. Ever hear of The Pentagon Papers? Do you realize how that book helped bring the debacle in Vietnam to an end? I guess you don't support him either, since he has been arrested 70+ times. He regularly engages in ILLEGAL behavior. And he is a FELON!!
:scared:

[MADem]

38. It is all about KEEPING WAGES DEPRESSED

So corporate cronies and CEO fatcats can make a killing. See post 37, above.

[0007]

61. Many work in the oil fields in Texas a lot cheaper than the gringo

[MADem]

62. So oil company CEOs can make huge bonuses!!!

Pay a fair wage, and that cuts deeply into those bonus margins....

[converted_democrat]

8. I agree with you completely..

My biggest fear is that they will get people used to the idea by starting out on illegals, and then turn around and use it on political dissidents and other "undesirables."

[Dr. Jones]

9. You have to remember, illegals are in our country illegally!

That is totally different than rounding up citizen dissidents. Although I have to admit, I would not put that past Bush since after all, he IS quite the dictator these days.

[converted_democrat]

14. Well aware of the law, and their legal status, thanks..

The word "round up" sends shivers down my spine.. You "round up" cattle, not human beings.. The idea of getting people used to the idea of "rounding up" a group to solve a problem is bothersome to me.. If they can convince the country that they can "round up" a group to "solve" a problem, what "problem" and "group" will they go after next?

[Dr. Jones]

25. How about "detain?"

n/t

[ulysses]

28. semantics.

Are we really willing to trust that an attempt at a mass "detention" of millions of people is going to be carried out well?

[converted_democrat]

31. Detain is no better.. We have "detainees," and that isn't working

out too hot for us either... What are the chances a "round up" or "detainment" would go well? What are the chances that this wouldn't be used for future "problems?" Do you really want this administration to practice and master the art of round up and mass detention? Does that really seem like a smart thing to do? After the way the detainees were abused and tortured in Iraq and Afghanistan, would you really wish to put anyone to a situation where they could be subjected to that same treatment? Especially when their only "crime" was trying to make a decent life for themselves?

[Igel]

57. You can round up kids, too.

And we routinely round up the stuff for our kid's diaper bag.

I'm currently rounding up data from a research trip last year, preparing to dig into it seriously ... yeah, right.

[slaveplanet]

36. I think that's the ultimate plan,

let as many in as possible then use the unrest to legitimize a crackdown.
Making money and soldifying control on both the front end and the back end.


Which explains why they are so vehemently against placing troops on both borders, even going so far as to run massive PR campaigns against the very mention of such notion. Enforcing the borders now, would allow those here now, to be absorbed over time and eliminate the need for their draconian future solutions. The real prize for these devils is the Pan American union and breakdown of the social fabric of all 3 countries, Balkanization works and they know it. Same thing's happening in Europe, and it's shoving people to the right.

[treestar]

42. This is exactly what they are doing, and the reason that so many

of the immigration laws passed since the 90s have "no judicial review" provisions. The executive has the last word, so in essence, can do what they want.

This gets some government officials used to the exercise of that kind of power. This power intoxication works as it usually does - they'll want more and more and more.

They've already suceeded in the idea that only certain people who a right to hearing when accused, only certain people are good enough for justice. Just like the England the founders rejected (where the nobility has privileges).

[treestar]

41. Too bad they couldn't mass arrest the Irish back in the day.

Oh, then nobody had thought of making it "illegal" for them to be here.

But that nativists of that day would have loved it too.

[KittyWampus]

47. They did send the Irish right off to the Civil War.

[treestar]

49. I'm sure they'd be willing to send illegals to Iraq - with the carrot

that they could gain citizenship by serving - if they survive.

[Dr. Jones]

65. If they loved America enough to risk their lives

to sneak into our country illegally, wouldn't it only stand to reason that they would risk their lives defending her? After all, America opened her arms to these less-fortunate human beings, and gave them a new life and a future. And America allows them free reign to pursue that life, even though they are here illegally.

Having said that, I do realize that we didn't go into Iraq for our "freedom" but rather to steal Iraq's oil and secure that oil for American oil companies. Executive Order 13303 bears this out. Hopefully this new scandal with Goss will bear this out - that Iraq was all about transferring wealth to defense contractors while Bush is responsible for the deaths of so many thousands of U.S. troops and Iraqi civilians.

[treestar]

69. I would bet they are generally more willing than the average

American cheerleader for the war, who has not, by the way, signed up.

[MADem]

50. Oh, but surely, everyone LOVED the Irish back in the day!!! (NOT!)

http://www.marist.edu/summerscholars/97/irish.htm
Prejudicial attitudes toward the Irish may have hindered their efforts to acclimate to their new home in Poughkeepsie. When the immigrants first arrived in Poughkeepsie they experienced much discrimination. In early 1850, riots broke out between the blacks and Irish. The Irish were forced to leave their homes and were beaten with clubs. Many innocent Irishmen were then falsely arrested.

The main cause of Irish immigration was the potato famine. The employment opportunities attracted them in large numbers. For some, the U.S. was merely a temporary refuge from political disorder. Many Irishmen left their native country to escape religious persecution. Catholics were deprived of civil rights and were restricted in the practice of their religion in Protestant Britain.

One problem they faced in America was employment. Most of the immigrants were formerly farmers in rural Ireland, and had little experience in the crafts or business. Finding employment was essential for survival, so most men became part of the work force. They were forced to accept the least desired employment. Many men became blacksmiths, carpenters, clerks, gardeners, shoemakers, tailors, merchants, laborers, and masons. The Irish female was even more poorly prepared than the male. Women employment in areas where competition was less apparent. About eighty percent of the females accepted employment as domestics....

The Chicago Post wrote, "The Irish fill our prisons, our poor houses...Scratch a convict or a pauper, and the chances are that you tickle the skin of an Irish Catholic. Putting them on a boat and sending them home would end crime in this country." http://www.kinsella.org/history/histira.htm

On Friday, May 3, 1844, the American Nativist Party, (aka American Republican Party), set up a platform in the almost one hundred percent Irish Third Ward of Kensington, a Philadelphia suburb. Speakers delivered tirades against the Irish, the Pope,. the Catholic Church, and the immigrants. The theme was that "a set of citizens, German and Irish, wanted to get the Constitution of the U. S. into their own hands and sell it to a foreign power. " The crowd jeered and began to tear down the platform. The Nativists retreated temporarily.

Philadelphia was a hotbed of nativism for years. The American Nativist Party allied itself with the American Protestant Association in propagating a conspiracy theory: the Pope was planning to take over America. The Irish were considered the most dangerous immigrants since they had demonstrated loyalty to the Pope through centuries of persecution and might rise on a signal from Rome for either a bloody conquest or a political takeover at the ballot box.

Leaving the most virulent anti-Catholic rhetoric to some evangelical Protestant clergy in the American Protestant Association/ the American Nativist Party claimed that its overriding concern was good government. It opposed immigrants only because they corrupted the republican principles of the founding fathers. The Nativists drafted a three-plank party platform:
(1 ) to extend the period of naturalization to twenty-one years;
(2) to elect only native born to all offices;
(3) to reject foreign interference in all institutions, social, religious, and political.

The Nativists who retreated from Kensington on May 3 returned on May 6, now three thousand strong. Speakers raised the flag and ranted about foreign religious influence in politics. Few Irish were in attendance since they had been told at Sunday Mass to go about their business and avoid confrontation. When a speaker called the Irish "scum unloaded on American wharfs," the only disruption was humorous: an Irish carter, with an innocent air, dumped a load of dirt a dozen feet from the platform... http://www.irish-society.org/Hedgemaster%20Archives/philadelphia.htm

This shit is not new. Pick any group, and you'll see the same shitty xenophobia coming out, and it has everything to do with the ECONOMY. When there's work for all, no one gripes; when people are competing for shitty jobs, it's way too easy to blame the newcomers.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

2. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction..... we invaded

a nation, a nation has invaded us. Both bad in the way they were accomplished, both resolvable by leadership that doesn't have its head up its collective ass.

[Dr. Jones]

13. Are you suggesting we've been "invaded" by illegals?

Or that a coordinated effort has been set forth to quietly invade and subvert America with illegals?

Just wondering. This morning I read an article by Lou Dobbs that "radical elements" have invaded the illegal immigration movement. Wondering if anyone else has heard of this.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. When in trouble, erect bogeyman. Preferably a dark skinned one.

“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” H.L. Mencken

[Dr. Jones]

10. But what if that boogeyman has felony status under U.S. Law?

I think you've got your boogeymen somewhat confused...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Ah, yes. But, let's not forget the past "felons".

http://www.capaa.wa.gov/chineseamericans.html

Exclusion Era
As a result of prejudice and competition for jobs, the Chinese were increasingly restricted by exclusionary laws. For example, in 1854, the Chinese were denied the right to testify in court against Whites, resulting in Whites robbing, killing and assaulting the Chinese with impunity. In 1882, the Chinese Exclusion Act prohibited immigration from China and set the stage for many other nationality-based exclusion laws. Chinese women were especially targeted for exclusion in order to control the Chinese population in the U.S. and keep the laborers single and mobile. By 1890, the ratio of men to women was 27 to one, truncating the natural development of the Chinese community.

With the passage of the Chinese Exclusion Act, the anti-Chinese movement intensified in Washington and the Chinese were driven out of labor camps and eventually from the chinatowns. This attacked the heart of the community since the chinatowns served as cultural enclaves for the Chinese. For example, Seattle’s Chinatown, which began in the 1860s, employed many Chinese men forced out of the labor market. Also, Chinese merchants established some of Seattle’s largest businesses there; and Seattle’s Chinatown became the home of benevolent family associations that provided business loans, language instruction, and social outlets.

In 1906, a “loophole” to the Exclusion Act surfaced after the great fire and earthquake in San Francisco destroyed all of the U.S. immigration records. Since the government had no records to prove otherwise, countless Chinese bought false papers identifying themselves as children of Chinese Americans. However, after gaining citizenship, these so-called “paper sons” often lived out their lives in fear of discovery.

To curtail illegal immigrants and close the “loophole,” a detention center opened on Angel Island located in San Francisco Bay. Suspect immigrants were separated from family members and placed in a crowded and demoralizing environment for weeks. Between 1910 and 1940, as many as 175,000 Chinese immigrants were detained and processed. It was not until an alliance between the U.S. and China during World War II that the Chinese Exclusion Act was repealed, resulting in the natural development of Chinese American communities and the drafting of Chinese men to join U.S. World War II armed forces.

http://hnn.us/articles/4708.html

And this:

Between 1880 and 1950, the regime of miscegenation law was at the height of its power. The laws were in effect in thirty states--every Southern state, the vast majority of western states, and several states on the border, like Indiana. Those states that didn't have miscegenation laws on their books, mostly in the Northeast, boasted that they didn't need to, because opposition to interracial marriage was by then so deeply rooted that new laws were simply unnecessary.

[Garbo 2004]

27. Do they? Sensenbrenner bill is still pending, not enacted. nt

[treestar]

44. Terrorists didn't work. Bird Flu - still trying. Drugs didn't work.

The communists didn't work. The power fiends area always looking for their "excuse" for martial law. The illegals are as good as any.

Look at Cheney's plans from the seventies for running the government in case of nukular attack. Scary. Soon he may have to resort to that. Nothing else works.

[azurnoir]

7. Mass arrests or round-ups

all but stopped when * was elected and now that they are starting (for political purposes) they are of a different sort. Prior, under any other administration they were aimed at employer's whose business employed almost 100% illegals and the companies owners were arrested fined or jailed along with the workers, now they are "terror" attacks at the supermarket, on public busses, any where that won't also ensnare their GOP buddies and set-up to be very public. These are nothing more then a political show with the illegals once again as the victims.

[Dr. Jones]

11. Interesting, thanks.

Of course whatever is good for companies and bad for people, you can guarantee that's what Bush is pursuing. The most obvious law enforcement would be on companies who hire illegals. I do fear a nasty backlash from the immigrant community if illegals are targeted for these roundups, but at the same time there's growing American support for such roundups. When you step back, you can see the war Bushco is trying to create here - American against illegal, not American against corporate America. Very sneaky.

Roundups will indeed have the effect of intimidating the immigrant community, and perhaps it will stem the tide of illegals coming into our country to some degree. But the most effective course of action, going after the companies, will not occur unless there's massive public outcry.

But I ask again what I asked in my OP: Do you think these roundups will do anything to stem the tide of illegal immigration?

[azurnoir]

19. In the short term

yes, but I don't see this keeping up for long and in the long run no. What needs to be done is the US has to loosen up on the # quota immigrants coming from Mexico and the amount of time they must wait to bring family members(husbands,wives,children) it was last time I heard 7 years From Mexico vs. say 2years from Peru. Then crack down on the borders, hard. Why loosen up on the numbers, cause they're here anyway seems almost like certain parties want illegals. Even with a border crack down unless the quota's and waiting periods are changed we will have illegals willing to take bigger risks and "coyotes" making more.

[Garbo 2004]

29. The real possibility of dying in the desert apparently hasn't sufficiently

deterred people from trying to cross the desert to get to the US. But these "roundups" for show will?

And yes, they are for show, as the stats will show when one compares enforcement under Bush to that under the Clinton administration. The real intended audience is not the folks in Mexico or the illegals here, it's a response to pressure from the GOPers who have been pursuing this issue in the media. It's about politics. As usual with anything this Administration does.

[Ksec]

15. If I went into Mexico illegally Id be put in prison

2 yr term . They must hate white boys down there.

[paul_fromatlanta]

17. There is a real double standard by the Mexican government

How they treat illegals versus how they want their citizens to be treated - but of course our government has similar double standards.

[dogday]

21. White Boys or Americans????

could you be a little more specific please??? Why just white boys????

[paul_fromatlanta]

16. A good thing? - not mass roundups of course, but raids on businesses

Raids on businesses that hire illegals targeting the employers as well as the illegals - that should have a deterrent effect without risking a broader (and dangerous)"roundup."

The idea of roundups on the street has too high of a chance of unduly effecting citizens who are of hispanic decent or legal immigrants.

[proud2BlibKansan]

18. This is disgusting on so many levels

How do they know who is illegal? Are we now going to mark them as the Germans marked the Jews?

Attendance at my school is way down because of these rumors of Hispanics being rounded up and sent back to Mexico. All I can think is thank god NCLB testing is over or we would really be screwed.

[Dr. Jones]

23. They are in our country illegally.

This is not the same thing as the Germans to the Jews. It's not saying that race or ethnicity has anything to do with it; it's simply because they are in our country illegally - meaning, against the stated laws of our lands.

We have these laws for the protection of our citizens, both for national security reasons and because too many illegals would put too much of a strain on our social services.

[proud2BlibKansan]

26. How many times do we have to have this discussion?

1. Undocumented workers are NOT eligible for ANY govt services!! So, no, they are not putting a strain on social services. I work with these families every day. It is heartbreaking when they have a problem and need some type of service (say, health care) and can't get any help. So relax, your tax dollars are safe.

2. Answer my question please. How do we identify which Hispanics are citizens and which are not? What are you proposing? Mandatory green card checks at the grocery stores? How about random traffic checks, like the ones we have to look for drunk drivers? Or do we send jack booted thugs from door to door in Hispanic communities? Then once we find them and send them back, do we brand them somehow so we know who they are when they sneak back in? Maybe tattoos?? I really want to know how you propose we distinguish the citizens from the undocumented immigrants.

3. Unless you have NEVER broken ANY law (including driving the speed limit) I say you have no right to brand them as 'illegal' or as 'lawbreakers'. It's that glass houses deal.

4. You never seem to mention the employers who hire the undocumented workers. Are they totally blameless in your world? Are you an employer hiring these people? Why do you avoid bringing them up?

[Garbo 2004]

32. Don't forget the forced deportations in the 30's. Legal residents and US

citizens were included in roundups and deported to Mexico.

There's a reason IMO that both legal immigrants and US citizens of Hispanic descent have been concerned and turning out for marches, etc. IMO it isn't all about "supporting" illegal immigration but coming out against what many view as an attack on a group of people due to ethnic origin. And before anyone says that's nonsense, it has happened before. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-04-04-1930s-deportees-cover_x.htm

At a time when the gov't is in the hands of people who dismiss the Constitution, the Geneva Conventions, and assert that they are not bound or limited by mere laws, people who have been targets and scapegoats in the past have no real assurances that they will not be so again.

[proud2BlibKansan]

34. This garbage talk about immigrants being illegal is such crap

On another post, I just pointed out that Cindy Sheehan and 20 of her supporters are now willing to be arrested (hence, making them ILLEGAL) to make a stand. Daniel Ellsberg has been arrested over 70 times.

But I suppose these DUers who are all hot and bothered over this 'illegal' problem and who claim they are concerned because the immigrants are 'illegal', would NEVER support Cindy Sheehan. After all, she is a lawbreaker!!

[treestar]

45. Yep, US citizens born in East LA :-)

Just like Cheech in the song.

[Dr. Jones]

35. Hmmm, that's funny.

Seems like a pretty reliable source would disagree with your #1 above:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1457661

WASHINGTON -- Health care providers can charge the government for emergency care provided to illegal aliens beginning Tuesday.

And just WHO pays for those earmarked Federal Government dollars to the health care providers due to illegals straining the system? THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER. You and me.

[Dr. Jones]

39. As for your #2,

go to any street corner or work pickup point. You can be sure to find many illegals waiting out there for work. If they can produce documentation, let 'em go. If they can't, chances are...they are in this country ILLEGALLY.

Now that's not so difficult or inhumane, is it?

[converted_democrat]

43. May I ask what your problem is with illegal immigration? I mean,

what is it that has you so upset? I'm not asking this to be a smart ass, I'm just trying to understand what your issue is, and maybe help you figure out a way to get what you're after without ripping families apart, and without helping the administration practice and gain the ability to do mass roundups..

[treestar]

46. If they were granted an amnesty or the law would be changed to

make them legal, then you would agree they had the "right" to be "in this country?"

Are you for enforcing the positive sides too? Like shouldn't USCIS decide a simple application that should be granted in a reasonable time?

What if a few of them have a case? Should it take the government 2 years to process the case and give them their green cards?

Those who are so stuck on the "legality" never seem to complain about how the government does NOT provide documentation to those who qualify under the law, in any decent, civilized, timely manner.

Yet that "illegality" is not so bothersome. Curious.

[Dr. Jones]

52. Shall we give amnesty to sex offenders? Mass murderers?

Along with illegal immigration has also come increased drug use, potential terrorists entering into our country, and increased crime.

Now if you are going to give amnesty to illegals, by default you would have to be FOR freeing all criminals from jails across our country.

No. Amnesty is the wrong answer. It rewards criminal behavior. Furthermore, once word gets out that America is giving amnesty to illegals, they will begin to POUR into this country like we've never seen. If you want to keep your job, and have easy access to healthcare, and have a good educational system, you will NOT want amnesty.

While you're at it, take a look at the immigration policies of other countries. Most would not dare DREAM of such lax immigration laws! They know that for one, their national security depends on it.

[converted_democrat]

55. You've got to be kidding..

"Shall we give amnesty to sex offenders? Mass murderers?"

and

"Now if you are going to give amnesty to illegals, by default you would have to be FOR freeing all criminals from jails across our country."

What a joke.. There is a huge difference between mass murders, and illegal immigrants, and you know it as well as I do.. Crimes face different penalties because they are different.. That second statement is even more ridiculous.. If one is in favor of amnesty for illegals, it has absolutely no bearing on their feelings about other crimes.. Why so many leaps of logic? Why so many straw men?

[Dr. Jones]

63. Not a LEAP of logic, but the essence of logic.

If you are FOR giving a group of people who are in our country ILLEGALLY, meaning you condone illegal behavior, then following that logic you would be FOR amnesty for those in U.S. prisons. Why would you contradict yourself by saying one criminal group is better than the other criminal group?

I personally have a hard time with that kind of moral equivalency.

[converted_democrat]

66. Criminal groups are different, otherwise we'd have the same penalty for

murder, and jaywalking.. Try again..

[Dr. Jones]

67. Criminal groups have one thing in common:

They broke the law.

I think this debate is rooted in the false pretense that illegal immigration is not breaking the law. It is. And more people have to understand that. We're talking about illegals entering into our country illegally. Some bringing drugs, some potential terrorists, some bringing crime (MS-13 gang is one example). And some people here want to equate illegal immigration with some kind of American civil rights movement? As if the two have ANYTHING in common!

[converted_democrat]

68. The world isn't that black and white.. As I said before, if all criminal

groups were the same, jaywalking and murder would carry the same penalty.. Whether or not you've ever been arrested, I'd bet my last dollar that you've done something against the law, are you in the same league as mass murders? Let's think about this reasonably, okay? What are the chances that mass deportations are going to happen? Slim to none. What are the chances that the country will hunt down all illegals and put them in jail? Again, slim.. If you really want to do something about illegal immigration why not try advocating for tighter borders, and corporate penalties? Personally, I have no problem with illegal immigration. I can't find it in me to condemn someone to a bad life because of their place of birth.. They want a decent life just like my ancestors did, and I can't blame them for that.

on edit- I still don't understand what you're so angry about. Why are you so upset with people that just want a better life?

[SidDithers]

72. When are you going to answer the question...

How do you identify illegals so you know who to arrest and deport? Or do you just scoop up everyone who "looks" illegal?

How many civil rights violation law suits will be filed by American citizens caught up in the dragnet to find illegals?

Sid

[ulysses]

22. and when this is no longer the GOP talking point of the election season

those poor folks will be right back here and nothing will have actually changed. Except that a couple of white yahoos will have improved their fence-building skills and learned what heat stroke is in the desert.

[proud2BlibKansan]

33. Very true and how sad

I was in NY a week ago today for the UPJ March. Met up with some terrific DUers and after the march, we went to eat. One of the FIRST topics of conversation around the table was these damn immigration threads. Every single one of us was in agreement that the racist, RW talking points showing up in these threads are disgusting and extremely disappointing.

I was not the only DUer at that table considering leaving this place over this crap. It is repulsive.

[Dr. Jones]

48. Racist, RW talking points?

:eyes:

Gimme a break. An increasing number of Dems agree that illegal immigration is indeed a major problem and something has to be done about it. Because it has to do with preserving our way of life, our jobs, our economy, and our well being.

It is so easy to sit back and disparage those who agree that illegal immigration is a problem, call them racists, xenophobes, etc. Try losing YOUR job to an illegal. I THINK you'd have a MASSIVE change of heart.

[converted_democrat]

51. I don't really think you're thinking your position through.. We are losing

jobs, but outsourcing and a not so hot economy account for a lot of that.. Instead of scapegoating a specific group of people, why not target corporations that are selling our nation out? Why not go after the current administration for their bad policy decisions? Why not work to establish a living wage 8.00- 9.00 an hour for everyone in America? There are ways to go about getting what you want without ripping families apart, or helping this administration become skillful at mass roundups.. Once the scapegoating starts, how far will it go, and are you really willing to take that risk? I see that you're frustrated, but I think you're taking your frustration out on the wrong group of people..

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

54. I hear ya, proud2Blib...

My experience with "illegal aliens", God how I hate those words, has been primarily with men and women that are from Ireland...

I'm not quite sure of their total numbers in the US, but I do know that in Chicago the estimates range from 7,000 to 10,000. I don't know all of the illegal Irish in Chicago, but the ones that I do know personally are to a man and woman, decent, hard working people who mind their own business.

Most of them came to the USA, as did millions of Irish before them, for a better life for themselves or their children. I know people go on about the Celtic Tiger that has improved the lifestyle of many of the Irish living in Ireland, but they are still many people in the "old country" that have been left behind.

I'm just wondering how many Americans would be upset if the majority of "illegals" in the USA were from Northern or Eastern Europe instead of Mexico and Central America?

IMHO, this debate over immigration is just another "Southern Strategy" put forth by the racists in the Republican Party. The fact that so many so-called "Democrats" and some long-time posters here are buying into this bullshit, wedge issue, that I'm quite sure Karl Rove plays a major role in, is totally beyond me.

I'm not gonna leave DU over this. I love this place too much, but after this post, I'm just going to ignore the ignorance and hope the freeper infiltrators get tombstoned... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Igel]

58. At the time of great immigration from those areas,

the immigrants were pretty universally hated in this country.

You could all it racism if you wanted to. There were epithets for Poles and Italnians, Hungarians and Swedes, Irish and Germans, with worries about assimilation and having American culture changed. They assimilated, but American culture was changed. People think having Mexican culture altered by exposure to US culture is a bad thing, but not vice-versa. I'm a linguist, and much of the field of syntax is built on finding asymmetries in the data; we like asymmetries for what they tell us.

Anyway, the differences probably would be slight. Many--most?--of those with problems will illegal immigrants aren't acting out of a specifically anti-brown-skin animus. Some are, but stereotyping, I was taught, is bad.

[Dr. Jones]

64. How passe.

You REALLY think those on DU who argue that illegal immigration is a problem that must be addressed are "freeper trolls?" Think again! A good number of people here do believe we have to take action on this matter. And a good number are also pissed that they lost their jobs to illegals!

I'll say it again. It's not about race. If ANYBODY is in our country illegally they need to be dealt with, and the system needs to change. We simply can't have people running around in our country who are undocumented - think of the national security implications! What are they up to? Are some spies or terrorists coming through our borders? Drug dealers and thugs? YES!! Maybe they're not the majority but those "in the know" realize it's a HUGE problem.

[Bridget Burke]

70. Would the mass arrests catch the spies & terrorists?

No, most workplaces crackdowns would get some people who moved here to work--some of whom might have the right papers. And some native-born would get caught, too. After all, they would fit the "profile." (Mustn't refer to skin color!)

Who the hell is "in the know"?

[treestar]

40. And other countries have lousy economies. And oh, by the way

which laws should be enforced. The employer ones or the ones just deporting the aliens?

That is why Congress should not be allowed to pass laws that there is not enough law enforcement to enforce. It just gives the government an opportunity to selectively enforce.

And then there is the disruption to the economy. I wish they would do it, and the result be a few freepers lose "their" precious jobs to which they are so entitled. Let's see how entrepreneurial they prove to be then.

[entanglement]

53. Wishful thinking

Contrary to your wishful thinking, the plight of working people in this country will change very little even if you rounded up and deported every last immigrant (a monstrous idea IMHO). Anyhow, you've found your scapegoat, so keep bashing away mindlessly. I suppose the upside is that people like you are only posting on discussion boards and are not (yet) out on the streets beating up Mexicans.

[Dr. Jones]

56. Hey now, I will NEVER be "out on the streets beating up Mexicans."

That is not even remotely a consideration! And it BETTER NOT be a consideration for anyone else, either. Fact is, I DO believe we should provide every human being with the dignity and respect they deserve. However, the issue at hand is what do we do with those who are in our country ILLEGALLY.

Now I am all for humane ways of dealing with the illegals. That's all I'm saying. I KNOW we need to go after the companies too, THEY should be the REAL scapegoats! But in the meantime, why is it so wrong for our law enforcement to enforce the law?

Geesh, in any other country you'd be tossed in jail, maybe tortured - and then if you ever do get out, deported back to your home country. Why should the U.S. allow illegal immigration unabated? Do you now how easy it would be for a Chinese or Russian or Iranian individual to slip through our borders and collect sensitive information? Or a group of potential terrorists? Or radical Mexican groups whose goal is to take back the American southwest for Mexico?

It's not only a humanitarian issue, it's a national security issue. THINK people, THINK.

[Igel]

59. There have been a roundup or two, but nothing like

the quantity and severity that's rumored to have occurred. Even Rivera-Oven labels it paranoia; saying "I didn't realize such law enforcement measures have been taking place - not just in the Washington DC area, but all over the country" suggests more than the few that actually occurred, and appears to give credence to the rumor-mongers and paranoid.

[Dr. Jones]

60. I did hear on the news the other day

that roundups did occur in Florida, and targeted illegals on construction sites. They did say that no action had been taken against the illegals. Unfortunately I do not have a link to this, if I find it I will post it.

It's happening, but I suppose it's being kept "under the radar" for now, probably to prevent riots and such.

[Bridget Burke]

71. Find a link, please.

A few workplaces were busted in Houston recently. Most of those arrested were given court dates & released.