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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:00 PM
Original message
Some aspect of illlegal immigration not being discussed....

Scenario:

A neighborhood where people have lived for the past thirty or forty years. Long term residents watch as their familiar neighborhoods become poorer. Then, they watch as their neighbors move away or pass on. Mexican immigrants move in. They don't just move in, they become the new neighborhood. Spanish is more prominently spoken in their neighborhood then English. The long term residents now feel like they are the outsiders.

I have numerous relatives that have experienced the above scenario. Now, before you shout at me and call me racist and a million other nasty things, stop! I am trying to open up a discussion of the effects of the class of cultures. I am pointing out that people don't like change. It feels unfamiliar, and it is a scary feeling for people. Anyone in ANY culture would have difficulty adapting to such extreme change occurring in their town, in such a short period of time. If, we went over to any country and became so prominent that we changed the landscape of their culture, the residents there wouldn't like it.

On top of it, the economic climate here is TERRIBLE. People are already feeling threatened that their jobs are going to outsourced. The middle class is falling apart....it is literally disappearing. And, the fact is that there is not a job in this country that people would not do for a living wage. Immigrants support their families back in Mexico with the money they make here. However, Americans have to sustain the cost of living in America, there is no way a American worker can compete. I think people forget that not every Mexican worker is aiming to live here. They come here because they can provide for their families (which is an admirable thing to do!). Only problem is that people HERE are having an enormously difficult time providing for their own families. Ready made cheap labor in a disappearing job market is not going to be welcome by blue collar workers in any community. It isn't about racism. It is about survival! Carpentars, painters, laborers, factory workers, kitchen workers, and many more blue collar jobs wages and benefits are being significantly reduced by an influx of these workers. Why do you think Bush wants to have a guest worker program? The only reason is that it is a gift to corporations, who now can avoid paying anyone a decent wage with benefits, immigrant or citizen alike!

Now, if you noticed I did not attack immigrants or blame them for them for the situation. But, if we truly want to progress as a culture and maintain a quality, sustainable standard of living, we NEED to talk about the above realities. Getting angry with people who are upset that their jobs are now gone, their neighborhoods have completely changed from what they always knew, and calling them racists is NOT going to help the situation. We all know it is the corporate policies that are making slaves of the entire globe. And, people will do whatever they must to survive and provide for their own. THe current situation isn't the immigrants fault.

It is a very difficult situation. Citizens and immigrants need to RECIPROCATE respect. And, we need to respect that people here are feeling very vulnerable. A feeling exacerbated by a rapidly changing culture, a culture in which many people feel they have no place.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. People with those fears can go get screwed, as far as I'm concerned
its Republican policies that they support that are screwing them, not illegals
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. You didn't read the post

Or, give any consideration to what I wrote.

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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Read it. Considered it.
Threw it out the window.
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ComerPerro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. On the contrary, I read every word of it
And, I say again, these people you write about, who feel their world and all their familiarities are being robbed from them, will get no sympathy from me.
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El Fuego Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
47. You're just not the Oppressed Flavor of the Month
Edited on Mon May-01-06 07:00 PM by El Fuego
The struggles of the American working poor bore them. It's out of style. They like their oppression with a side of salsa these days.

It's a civil rights march, just like in the heady days of MLK! So romantic! But do they care about poor African-Americans who are adversely affected by illegals? Of course not. That is so 20th century.

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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
51. So, it makes no difference to you what color that person's skin is?
And you don't care that this person worked their ass off all their life to have a humble home to call their own?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Some people get scared when black people move in too.
They say things like "there goes the neighborhood" and then they move to Seg Rey gated community.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. It's not a race issue, it's an economic issue.
Be they brown or green or purple, low income/no income residents economically deplete neighborhood resources (something which can be troubling to long-term residents).
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Bullshit.
Race has everything to do with it.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Well, after such a detailed rebuttal, I've changed my mind. Thanks!
:eyes:

Wanna explain HOW it's a racial issue and not an economic issue?
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You mean like your wonderful argument...
about how it's economic, not racial?

Here's a clue, maybe it's got something to due with assuming spanish speaking mexicans are low/no income and bad for the neighborhood?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #17
30. Any residents with no/low income are bad for a neighborhood.
They don't have to be Spanish-speaking.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Ah, so it's not racism, it's classism.
And classism is OK.

Gotcha.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. No, it's simple economics.
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:48 PM by MercutioATC
The OP dealt with illegal immigration (as evidenced by the title). Low income/no income residents place a strain on a community's economic viability. Typically, illegal immigrants earn less than their legal counterparts. By extention, illegal immigrants (in the abstract) are detrimental to neighborhoods.

Not racist, not classist...just realistic.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. "poor people are bad for neighborhoods" isn't classist?
And I suppose "black people are bad for neighborhoods" isn't racist?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. No, it's economic fact.
I'm not saying that the economically disadvantaged shouldn't be able to live wherever they choose, but it's an economic fact that they place a strain on a community's resources.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #39
64. No, it's classism.
Textbook definition.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. How exactly do these low income residents afford to live in these
once economically booming towns? They don't. They move into towns that are already on the decline. Besides, the OP SPECIFICALLY stated "Spanish is spoken" as being a concern. That, is racism.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. I agree
Blind to the benefits because their new neighbors speak Spanish. How close minded can you get?
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
52. Not so...
Edited on Mon May-01-06 07:25 PM by Juniperx
I've seen houses in my mostly Black and Hispanic neighborhood where there are 20 people living in a 600 square foot one bedroom house because that is all they can afford. That is how it is done! It has nothing to do with a declining neighborhood! This is Southern fucking California fcol! There is no such thing!!!

The Black and Hispanic families around me bitch quite loudly about it too. They worked their asses off to become citizens and buy their own homes. I say nothing during these discussions because I don't want to be labeled a racisit...
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. The OP referred to a good neighborhood being brought DOWN
Edited on Mon May-01-06 09:21 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
by low income residents. A neighborhood where people are taken aback by Spanish speaking individuals popping up and becoming the majority. Your neighborhood, a predominantly black and hispanic neighborhood would not qualify as I doubt many people that live there are made uncomfortable by people speaking Spanish in an town that already has many hispanic residents. You state that your neighborhood already had two black families on either side and a hispanic family across the street when you moved in. Therefore, you knew what area you were moving into. The OP is talking about people who lived in upperclass areas and now suddenly find themselves surrounded by mexicans.

You can see it in the news. Gated communities trying to deny certain people the right to live there.
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
44. It never is....
never.

never.

never.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. It's not racism when the color of their skin doesn't matter.
...and it doesn't, in this case.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
50. I'm in a gated community
Edited on Mon May-01-06 07:19 PM by Juniperx
And I'm the minority there with my round Irish face. I have lovely neighbors of every color and we behave as one big happy family for the most part... as long as you obey the rules. If you break the rules, it doesn't matter what color your skin is, you are going to get a royal ass chewing regardless. I bought a home in this gated community knowing the neighbors on either side of my townhouse are black and my house faces the homes of three Mexican families. Just try to call me a racist.

The middle class has all but completely disappeared. I think the OP asks a valid question...

So, it's inhumane to voice an opinion against immigration, yet it's ok to say shit like "all those people can go to hell" when you are talking about people who worked their ass off all their lives to get what they have?

Something is terribly wrong with this entire discussion.

I haven't made up my mind yet on the immigration issue. I grew up in So Cal and I can't imagine living here without Mexicans.

I have more questions than answers and I'm rather baffled by those who are so firm in their beliefs, one way or another.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #50
59. No, I say that people who worked hard to get what they have deserve
it. However, people that wish to deny those same opportunities to others exist.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #59
62. I think that's the point
People work hard to buy a home and expect the neighborhood they move into to remain the same economically. When you get 20 people moving into a house or apartment that is meant for 1 or 2 people, and create trash for twenty in a space for 2, and park cars for 20 in space for two... it changes the neighborhood drastically. The schools become overcrowded beyond what they already are and no one gets a proper education. The neighborhood declines...
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. Racist? It depends
Do a thought experiment. Imagine how neighbors react to Mexican or Somali immigrants moving in in large numbers.

Now imagine how they react if large numbers of Russian or Rumanian immigrants move in.

If the reactions are different, then the reaction to the Mexicans or Somalis is racist.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
53. I don't care where they come from or what color their skin is
As long as they don't have 20+ people living in a 600 square foot house made for two or three people. I've seen it happen with people from all nations.
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shenmue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:06 PM
Response to Original message
6. I think you're right
That's a big problem everyone is scared to talk about, because the accusations will always fly. But that's not fair. There is more to this problem than just the rose-colored glasses way people have been looking at it up until now.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. Clearly the answer is to segregate the neighborhoods.
Only allow Mexicans to live in "Mexican designated areas". That way your friends who feel so threatened by the brown people will be safe and comfy in their lilly white neighborhoods. Tra-la-la-la-la.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Agreed. Americans in America, Mexicans in Mexico.
I'm assuming we're talking about illegal Mexican immigrants here, not U.S. citizens or legal U.S. residents.

(not intending to single out illegal immigrants from any particular country...Mexico was just the country named in the OP)
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. The OP didn't say illegals as far as the "scary neighborhood invaders"
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:12 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
She just said Mexican immigrants.

The people who fear such Mexicans fear them whether they are legal or not.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I took "illegal" as implied, since the topic was "illegal immigration"...
...but perhaps I'm mistaken.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. How do these people know that these Mexicans are illegal?
Do they ask them? Or do they just see brown skin and cower in fear?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. Maybe that's a question for the OP...it's not my neighborhood.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Yet you were good enough to assume they were illegal
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:46 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
When it was convenient for you.
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. In light of "illegal immigration" in the subject line, I don't feel that's
a stretch. The OP was clearly (to me) discussing illegal immigrants, not Mexican immigrants in general.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #14
55. I'm so sick of all the nit picking!
Good God! Illegal immigration is part of the fucking original OP!

Get with the program! If you can't defend your views without blatant lying, you are disqualified! Shit!

AS I SAID... I haven't made up my mind on this issue yet... and I'm not getting any GOOD information from either side it seems! Shit! You guys are just all intent on arguing! It's disgusting! Especially when you get so wound up in the argument that you loose sight of your own argument and start making shit up!


I'm appauled. Seriously.
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SemiCharmedQuark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. So you think the people in question, walked up to these Mexicans and asked
Edited on Mon May-01-06 09:24 PM by SemiCharmedQuark
for papers? I doubt it. I seriously doubt it. They saw brown skin and heard spanish and they assumed they were illegal. I didn't make anything up. I pointed out that apparently anyone moving into a white neighborhood who speaks Spanish and has brown skin is now considered an "illegal" or part of the immigration debate when the two have NOTHING to do with each other.

And that's a fact, no matter how many "shits" and "fucks" you throw in your messages or how "appauled" you are.
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JuniperLea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #57
63. That's your opinion
Not a fact. Did you interview every person in that neighborhood?

When you see 20 people living in a space meant for 2 you pretty much know... my opinion.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:08 PM
Response to Original message
10. The next step: Yuppies move into the neighborhood....
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:10 PM by Bridget Burke
They begin fixing up the fine old homes. Renters are kicked out. Property taxes go up, so the old residents have to move--even if they made an effort to get along with the newcomers. Neighborhoods change. Not just because of immigration, legal or not.

(You're mixing up your messages. Stay on the economic one. That nasty xenophobia keeps leaking through...)







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leftstreet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
15. I wish they were marching for better wages - not amnesty
Higher wages
Improved working conditions
The right to organize

Millions more workers would be in the streets.

The "amnesty" and resultant "race" wedge issue only divides and conquers US labor. Again.

We don't have the enforcement capabilities to deport millions of undocumented workers. And the corporations and special interest groups behind these marches know that. Amnesty is not the issue. Dividing and conquering labor, and driving toward a slave wage class is what it's about.

It's bullshit and we're all being had.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. They ARE
Before they can get any of that, they have to have a legal leg to stand on. They aren't marching for amnesty, necessarily, rather a legal process that gives them the ability to fight for all those things you mentioned. The McCain-Kennedy bill proposed a citizenship process to give them that. They're marching AGAINST bills that would make them felons, build fences, and separate families with deportation and immigrant detention centers.
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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #29
67. I see what youre getting at and think some sort of guest worker program
makes sense... but what I wonder is if this really would address the problem (if we can agree to call it that) of undocumented workers undermining the bargaining position of documented workers-- unless we somehow also curtailed or put a stop to illegal immigration and/or illegal hiring.

We've already had amnesty programs before with no lessening of undocumented workers arriving here. Not only affecting the jobs "no one else would do", these are also skilled trades.

I just find it frustrating to once again be stuck between (or somewhere outside of) 2 polarities neither of which really addresses what the real problem is!





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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:16 PM
Response to Original message
19. They have been a wonderful addition in the neighborhood
that my school serves. They have cleaned it up and improved property values. So they don't always have a negative effect on neighborhoods and communities.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. You are still blaming the wrong people.
The immigrants aren't outsourcing the jobs and making the middle class disappear. They are part of the players in the drama but not the cause.

I used to live in South Central Los Angeles during WWII in my grandmother's house. It was a white neighborhood that became a black neighborhood in the next decade and I'm sure many of the white people felt as the people you talk about feel.

I went back to the old neighborhood on a nostaligia visit when I grew up. The African Americans living in my grandmother's house were very sweet and let me in. I showed them pictures of when we lived there. They loved having a history of their home.

So life goes on and people move in and move out, but the real problem is getting the corporations and government to do the right thing by all working class people of all races and ethnicities.

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I blamed no one and specifically stated that the immigrants

Were not to blame!

Did you read the entire post?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
45. Yes, I read your post and you said they weren't to blame
but you also said that they were causing all these bad feelings, which means deep down you do think they are to blame. So what is it?
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tjwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. Are you trying to say that...
...we are going to be in the same economic condition soon, that Mexico is in?

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. Very well could be!
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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
23. It is amazing - this is a board full of saints!

Never a racist thought, never trouble adjusting to the unfamiliar, never scared for their own well-being ahead of other peoples'!

Wow.

Perhaps, you should all be annointed.

The point of my post is simple. It ACKNOWLEDGES the issues in which people struggle when confronted with this issue!

The intimidation people feel with a huge shift in their environments.

The fear people experience when confronted with economic instability.

Racism stems from being AFRAID of the unfamiliar. It is a fear based prejudice.

Every SINGLE one of has our own prejudices. EVERY single one of us. The real difference lies in our ability to see that the problem stems from WITHIN us, not from an external source.




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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #23
31. well, I read it and got what you were getting at
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:47 PM by Kashka-Kat
I usually enjoy progressive or liberal discourse bc in general people are more willing and able to appreciate nuance and subtleties....

Not this bunch-- either youre a "good leftie..." or racist republican party stooge.

Phew!

My concern is that if the liberal/left abandons its traditional stance in support of labor and workers rights... then who is left to speak for us? So far I have not yet seen how support for amnesty for undocumented workers can be reconciled with traditional democratic party support for labor and workers rights.

Seems like an inherent contradiction there. How can you support less than legal wages &undercutting trade union power while at the same time profess to support workers rights/unions?

Divide and conquer... Im afraid its going to really do us in.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. How is supporting the rights of undocumented workers
in conflict with support for workers' rights?

You would seem to be the one making the division. :)

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debbierlus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #36
42. Undocumented workers

Are a cheap labor source...

Why pay an American worker decent wages and benefits, if you can pay an undocumented less then half the salary & no benefits?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #42
61. Oh, please. Make up your mind. Are you upset about
the neighborhood invasion or about the suppression of wages?

If the latter, you should have been out there marching for a living wage for all workers. Period.
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Kashka-Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #36
66. how?
Edited on Wed May-03-06 11:15 AM by Kashka-Kat
Just what I wrote--see above. Exact same issues as outsourcing of jobs to China, India, eastern Europe, etc. -- only the lower waged workers come here. Weakens bargaining position of documented workers.

Guest worker program or some such thing would be good... but would that really solve the problem(and for the record I see the problem as not being so much with the workers struggling for survival but the corporatists/employers who are orchestrating/exploiting/profiting)

Have had amnesty programs in the past which did absolutely nothing to lessen the influx of undocumented workers.


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Jim Warren Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
43. Not saints
though many are idealist, and with passion that idealism and (probably) youth bring to debate.
I think that the stance some are taking today is gonna turn and bite them in the ass in the not too distant future. Who knows, it's all in flux.

You post smacks of reallife and realtime. I get that and think it needs to be said and looked at and discussed. It's in the hours between things that get to us and wherever we are, there we'll be, all of us, waiting.

BTW, is that the Adams out on Rt. 2 and if so know where Shays hiway is?
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. None of us are saints, but many of us
have gone through this in the past. In my case as old as I am, many times. The last time I got displaced was because a lot of rich people were moving into our town and rents were tripling in a matter of months. Many landlords were converting our apartments into condos and many people were being forced to move because they couldn't afford to buy.

Many were forced to move to other localities because they couldn't afford to move to another place in the same town that many of them were even born in. But no one was complaining when it was about rich mostly white people.

We, who were being shoved out though, did know whom to blame. We blamed the greedy real estate speculators and passed rent control.
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Sapere aude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:29 PM
Response to Original message
27. What you have described is the reality of life here. It isn't going to go
back to being the way it was. Change is inevitable. There has to be something positive that can come from this. In time those neighborhoods will change again. Maybe they will be more gentrified. The house I grew up in now in a ghetto but it wasn't that way when I lived there. Unless you called all us white folks a ghetto.

If we all joined together to fight for social justice some good can come from this. It isn't them or us it is just us!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Exactly.
:toast:
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:37 PM
Response to Original message
28. Lived in mixed neighborhoods all my life
Edited on Mon May-01-06 04:41 PM by sandnsea
Race has nothing to do with the "quality" of the neighborhood, economics does. When I was a kid, I lived in a neighborhood with Koreans, Mexicans, Japanese and African-American. Catholics, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists and Baptist. Even a gay guy next door. Suburban.. get this.. FRESNO. Okay? There weren't any problems AT ALL and this was in the 60's. It's a nice middle class neighborhood to this day.

I've lived in very poor mixed neighborhoods as well. More problems, but not due to race, rather due to alcohol and drugs.

In Arkansas, I was looking at a duplex and the landlady pointed to the family across the street and said, "They're a nice Indian family, we don't rent to blacks." In 1987 no less. Quite ironic because I had moved from Montana where a landlady might have said "They're a nice black family, we don't rent to Indians."

It's racism. People need to quit kidding themselves.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #28
54. Agree
I've lived in mixed neighborhoods all my life as well. I live in a mixed neighborhood with LOTS of immigrants. My neighbors rock, for the most part.
Some, I imagine, and NOT JUST THE LATINOS--- may be illegal. I've heard that there are sweat shops using Vietnamese women. We just found 20 Chinese nationals is a ship container. There is a Cambodian refugee help center.
Nationally, as I type this, there is a large underground organization of illegally imported sex workers. America is number 2 behind Germany in these imports--Where's the outrage?

Part of the whole thing with the immigration arguments is seem to focus on the Latino immigrants--most likely because they are organizing and vocal. That's where the racism comes in, and I think many people are plain blind to it. Say "Illegal immigrant" and it seems people think "Mexicans this and Mexicans that" ignoring the fact that South America is a fucking Continent. (I know they don't come out and say it that way, but that's the impression I get)

I don't have answers to the immigration issue, opinions of course, but not answers, but I hate racism.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 04:53 PM
Response to Original message
40. There certainly is a cultural clash here, and it's very interesting
in itself.

When Americans go to Mexico, they expect to find American amenities and English speaking staff at the resorts they frequent.

When Mexicans come to the United States, they are exhorted to learn English and assimilate ASAP. Mexican culture is vastly more flexible and accepting of cultural difference than American culture is.

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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. Nasty generalizations

I travel to Mexico frequently and use my limited Spanish and my wife's much more voluminous Spanish to communicate. I don't stay in resorts or expect "American style" amenities.

Further, if I moved to Mexico I'm sure I would be "exhorted" to learn (better) Spanish and assimilate ASAP. That's what people are supposed to do when the move to another country. Visitors are not going to be looked at the same why immigrants are.

And as to flexibility and acceptance in Mexico, ask a Salvadoran, Honduran, or Guatemalan how well they're treated when they sneak into Mexico illegally to head through to the USA.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
56. Um, my family is Salvadoran and we have been in Mexico
and there is nothing "nasty" about the truth unless you can't handle it.

Then, it can be "nasty" indeed.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-01-06 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. Um, were you in Mexico illegally?
That was the point I was addressing, in case you missed it.

And your nasty and bigoted generalizations regarding Americans are as unwarranted and ridiculous as what I here the Freeper dickheads at work say about Mexicans. Your stereotypes are no more "truth" than theirs. :hi:
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Kansas Wyatt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-02-06 12:50 PM
Response to Original message
65. Speaking out against illegal immigration
Automatically makes you a "racist" on the DU, and the Working Class Citizens do not deserve any respect, since they are 'overpaid lazy ass Americans who refuse to work.' Working Class Citizens are trash to be thrown away, and illegal workers are to be granted everything they demand. You must comply with these demands, or you will be attacked.

Yet, so many Democrats here still cannot figure out why they lose elections when so many Working Class voters vote against their economic best interests.

The Democrats would score mega bonus points with the Working Class, by demanding that Employers be heavily fined for employing illegal workers. Implementing a three strikes rule, where the business and it's assets are seized by the Feds for employing illegal workers. Set up an Extended Unemployment Fund where the proceeds of all fines and property seizure proceeds would go to help the Working Class, who is hurt by the illegal employment practice. Employers would no longer risk employing illegal workers, when everything they have would eventually go to the Working Class employees they refused to pay a fair wage to in the first place. No extra-ordinary deportation measures would be necessary, since illegal workers would just have to return home on their own, due to the lack of work for them to survive on anymore, in a country they illegally entered. This only penalizes the employers hiring illegal workers, and that is all, the illegal workers already chose when they illegally entered and stayed.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
70. Word.
Excellent post on ALL points, as well as an excellent plan to punish greedy businesses. :)

Judging from some of the posts on this thread, I am now beginning to wonder if there is some reverse racism going on. As in "Evil Americans".

I agree with you that more and more it appears that Americans and American workers are the target and are to be trashed so that illegal immigrants can come here and take whatever jobs at will. Because first and foremost we must show compassion to these "immigrants"-not illegal aliens mind you-since they need the work more than anyone else does. :eyes:

Sorry, but I fail to see ANY compassion in that for the American worker who has been financially kicked to the curb as a result.

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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:00 PM
Response to Original message
68. The problem with this post is that you are conflating two separate
issues. The reason labor does not have a strong voice in American politics is because even the socialist movement of the early teens and twenties was split along racial lines. The employer was very hip to the fact that the average white worker considered it an insult to work alongside blacks and Mexicans. For the higher skilled white workers it was a boon because it provided them with greater leverage at the bargaining table. But in the expanding Southwest Mexican labor was all the while being imported primarily for seasonal occupation that never paid enough to sustain a family so the men would pick fruit or cotton for half the year then go back home to their wives and children. When this became onerous they tried to organize but were often brutally attacked by the police and labeled as subversives and or communists. Had it not been for the color of their skin the unions would have supported their struggle for fair wages but instead they collaborated with the bosses. So as far as low-skilled jobs still not paying a living wage the labor movement really has no one to blame but its own shortsightedness.

Now as far as neighborhood's changing that is more often a function of industries and businesses leaving the area. Housing prices fall and the poor move to a neighborhood they can afford. I sympathize with workers who have seen their investments vanish sometimes literally overnight but that is function of neoliberal government policies (erroneously called free-trade)started under Reagan. The migrant workers are not the ones that caused these neighborhoods to decline or decay, nor did they ask to be thrown off their land in Guatemala so corporations could see a greater return on their investment in United Fruit. I hope this helps to clear up some of the confusion.
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adwon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-03-06 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
69. Just a thought
Edited on Wed May-03-06 12:17 PM by adwon
Quite a few posts in this thread are wholly concerned with the legitimacy of the described fears and anxieties but not the reality of them. Plainly, reality doesn't care if you believe it. You either address those fears and anxieties or, rest assured, the other side will. If you choose to ignore the reality and simply throw out the 'racist' card, you write off people who could be encouraged to seek common ground and open up new friendships. Damn! How much sense does it make to write off people who have the natural fear of the unknown? Wouldn't it make more sense to listen to these people and help them find a way to live without this fear? "Come, let us sit down and reason together" is a far more liberal (in every possibly sense of the word) idea than "You're unredeemable because you feel awkward relating to people you don't know."

Oh yeah. You're right to bring up the issue because it won't go away just by calling everyone racists.
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