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Warrantless wiretaps have been challenged in court, and have been upheld

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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 09:56 AM
Original message
Warrantless wiretaps have been challenged in court, and have been upheld
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 09:59 AM by brainshrub
Is the title on this thread true?

Here's the conversation:

Republican apologist: Wireless wiretaps are okay because Clinton did it.

Me: Warrantless wiretaps are okay because Clinton did it. Riiiiiiight.

Republican apologist: Actually they are OK because every-time they have faced a challenge in court they have been upheld.


ON EDIT: The conversation didn't post. I've fixed it.

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monarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Just say: "Prove it." n/t
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. Please site court case as precedent.
:shrug: I have learned a long time ago that the truth is just not in a Republican. I need verification..
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achtung_circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. But, but, but
Republican apologist: Wireless wiretaps are okay because Clinton did it.

With warrants from the FISA courts.

Me: Warrantless wiretaps are okay because Clinton did it. Riiiiiiight.

Republican apologist: Actually they are OK because every-time they have faced a challenge in court they have been upheld.

Except for the times they weren't. Not a large number were not OK'd but, wait, I seem to remember something from civics class.

Amendment 4 - Search and seizure

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
4. NO. Not yet. Wait til Alito.
CLinton did NOT use warrantless wiretaps outside of FISA. Jamie Goerlick (sp?) suggested one possible event in one possible area under limited scope, but they never did it.

Tell your republican friend,
"I'm going to rape your wife. Because a big GOP supporter was just accused of raping his friend's wife. Because he did it, I am justified in doing it also."
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
5. try this video
Edited on Sat Dec-31-05 10:43 AM by FogerRox
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
6. Your freeper friend is confused.
See the Berger and Katz Cases. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution/amendment04/05.html

"Berger held unconstitutional on its face a state eavesdropping statute under which judges were authorized to issue warrants permitting police officers to trespass on private premises to install listening devices. The warrants were to be issued upon a showing of ''reasonable ground to believe that evidence of crime may be thus obtained, and particularly describing the person or persons whose communications, conversations or discussions are to be overheard or recorded.'' For the five-Justice majority, Justice Clark discerned several constitutional defects in the law. ''First, . . . eavesdropping is authorized without requiring belief that any particular offense has been or is being committed; nor that the 'property' sought, the conversations, be particularly described."

And in Katz:

"Just as Berger had confirmed that one rationale of the Olmstead decision, the inapplicability of ''seizure'' to conversations, was no longer valid, Katz disposed of the other rationale. In the latter case, officers had affixed a listening device to the outside wall of a telephone booth regularly used by Katz and activated it each time he entered; since there had been no physical trespass into the booth, the lower courts held the Fourth Amendment not relevant. The Court disagreed, saying that ''once it is recognized that the Fourth Amendment protects peo ple--and not simply 'areas'--against unreasonable searches and seizures, it becomes clear that the reach of that Amendment cannot turn upon the presence or absence of a physical intrusion into any given enclosure.'' 145 Because the surveillance of Katz's telephone calls had not been authorized by a magistrate, it was invalid; however, the Court thought that ''it is clear that this surveillance was so narrowly circumscribed that a duly authorized magistrate, properly notified of the need for such investigation, specifically informed of the basis on which it was to proceed, and clearly apprised of the precise intrusion it would entail, could constitutionally have authorized, with appropriate safeguards, the very limited search and seizure that the Government asserts in fact took place.''"

Katz gets to the heart of the matter - the only defect in the surveillence was the lack of a warrant.

Your freeper friend might be confused about the civil liability issue - if the AG can be sued, for example, for authorizing a warrantless search. That is a more complicated issue:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/anncon/html/art2frag42_user.html

Finally, the 1978 FISA act specifically prohibits warrantless surveillence of "U.S. persons" (any legal resident of the United States). Domestic warrantless searches are a direct violation of existing law.



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justgamma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
7. Republican defense, But...But...but...Clinton...
My reply? Hey, let's impeach Clinton. Oh, Nevermind.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-31-05 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
8. You might want to browse federal law at the links below.
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