Lacrosse Player's Attorney Seeks Evidence About Alleged Rape Victim

[LostinVA]

Here we go....


DURHAM, N.C. -- The defense attorney for a Duke University lacrosse player charged with raping an exotic dancer at a team party last month wants the state to provide details about the health, legal and educational background of the accuser, which will "provide rich sources of information for impeaching the complaining witness."

The motion, filed Monday by Kirk Osborn, who represents indicted lacrosse player Reade Seligmann, also asks the court to schedule a pretrial reliability hearing to "determine if the complaining witness is even credible enough to provide reliable testimony. This request is based on the fact that the complaining witness has a history of criminal activity and behavior, which includes alcohol abuse, drug abuse, and dishonesty, all conduct which indicate mental, emotional and/or physical problems, which affect her credibility as a witness," the motion states.

*snip*

The motion does not cite any specific evidence to support its claims about the accuser, and Osborn declined to answer questions about the motions.

http://www.wral.com/news/8965575/detail.html

[Berry Cool]

1. It's a trip back to the dark ages

where anyone who accused anyone else of rape had her own history paraded before the court and her reputation dragged through the dirt in order to make her appear "unrapeable." *sigh*

[LostinVA]

2. Yup... too bad the DA can't constantly talk about the accused's rap sheets

GAG ORDER! PLEASE.

[OhioNerd]

4. You mean the frat boy who punched someone in the nose while bar crawling?

You mean the frat boy who punched someone in the nose while bar crawling?

[LostinVA]

5. You mean the frat boy who gay bashed in DC?

[OhioNerd]

14. Gay Bashed?

Gay Bashed?

Gay bashing is when you single out a person or persons for their homosexuality and attack them on that basis. Calling someone on the street a f***** before you punch him in the nose is not.

Please don't misunderstand me. Drunk frat boys running around and acting like idiots is NOT something I approve of. I just don't want to participate in spinning something into something it is not.

Now, if you happen to have information that would contradict what I think I know about the incident, I'd be happy to listen. Just because I THINK that I know what happened doesn't mean I actually do.

[dogday]

22. Then how about this

3 frat boys call a man they don't know gay and other names, when the man tells them to stop they beat him down... Whether they meant it or not, they did it on someone they did not even know... The mentality is the accused is already convicted of a violent act and act of violence done in a group setting... Those are the facts....

[BrownOak]

40. This could make for a very interesting conversation ;) n/t

[dogday]

47. I think we have sung that song before

let's agree to disagree!!!:hi:

[BrownOak]

57. Wait,

I thought we agreed I was right....:toast:

[OhioNerd]

49. OK, then how about this...?

   OK, then how about this...?
Assuming your facts are correct, a point I am not disputing,
then what you have is some assholes that deserve to be locked
up and probably need a good beating themselves.

   However, unless the victim in this case actually WAS Gay,
then it wasn't Gay Bashing. This is an important distinction
because crimes of Hate are a very serious thing and we
shouldn't cheapen them by throwing around those labels too
casually. When you do that you are only giving certain kinds
of people an excuse to not take you seriously.

   The same admonition applies to the Duke case. No matter how
abysmally those kids behaved in any prior incidents, it is not
evidence in the current case. I don't care how poorly they
behaved in the past, we assume that people are innocent until
proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt; and we pray that
people will show us the same courtesy should we ever find
ourselves accused of something we didn't do.

   A long time ago, not long after I got out of the Army, I
lived in a communal house I was renting with some other Vets.
We had a room available and a stewardess moved in. Naturally I
had to make a move and to my everlasting astonishment I
actually succeeded. Unfortunately, her boyfriend showed up the
next day and Little Miss Busted made some claims to him
regarding her alleged lack of willingness. Fortunately for me,
my roommates and their girlfriends were in a position to vouch
that it had been ENTIRELY consensual. 

   I don't tell you about this because I enjoy talking about
the incident. I tell you about it because I think it's
important that you understand that this isn't merely an
intellectual exercise. The people involved in this incident
are real, and no matter WHAT the truth turns out to be, their
lives are ALL ruined. It's not necessary for us to compound
the tragedy by rushing to judgment on behalf of either party.

[AngryAmish]

53. I don't think one has to be gay to be gay based

I thnk one has to be perceived to be gay.

The motivation that aggravates the crime is anti-gay animus -- which is in the head of the attacked.

I don't know the facts of the instant case, but if it was a bar fight and names were said prior to blows being thrown then it is not gay bashing. But if it was bothering a guy on the street because helooked gay (whatever that means) then it could be gay bashing. My 2 cent.

[OhioNerd]

55. Really? Because I would think that's a prerequisite. (n/t)

[LisaL]

18. Actually, no.

That would be the lawyer for the guy that has no record.
Does that make you happy?

[OhioNerd]

52. I am honestly having trouble...

I am honestly having trouble figuring out how your answer meshes with what I thought I was saying.

I'm not being snide, I'm honestly missing the point.


Your attitude seems a bit tense though, so I'm going to guess that I said something that you were less than pleased with. If you will tell me what it is I can either clarify my position or confirm that I really am the jerk I suspect you think I am.

If it helps any, I have a post a little above this one that (#57) that you may or may not find illuminating.

[TheWraith]

6. There's no gag order on the DA.

He's free to say anything he likes, and he has been, repeatedly.

[wakeme2008]

3. Time for the liar's rap sheet to come out IMHO...

Sounds like the defense knows about her convictions....

[Lex]

7. Why do you call her a "liar"?

:shrug:

[wakeme2008]

11. IMHO she lied about this whole thing

and I believe the DA is politically overlooking major problems with the case just to win his primary against a woman and a black challengers.

[dogday]

23. Why do you think she lied??

Your opinion....

[LisaL]

27. HTF should any of us know? You would have to ask her.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LisaL]

20. LOL.

One doesn't have to be a Duke alumni or a sports fan to figure out this rape case is full of shit.

[democracyindanger]

38. Why? Because she's black or because she's a stripper?

Pathetic.

[LittleClarkie]

58. And that's relevant to this case how?

I've seen you call her a liar before. How do you know? Were you there? Is she not innocent until proven guilty?

I can withhold judgement on both the accused and the victim.

But you calling this person a liar seems over the top. What do you base this on?

[cally]

8. So, any woman who has a criminal record

or uses drugs is not a reliable witness? :argh: I guess only church going virgins can be raped. :sarcasm: And people still claim that it's easy for a woman to come forward and prosecute a rape. It's not.

[OhioNerd]

54. That's called a Straw Man. (n/t)

[Moosepoop]

9. For supposedly having incontrovertible proof of his client's innoncence,

this attorney sounds rather panicked. Sounds like he wants to bully the victim into dropping the case, before the DNA results from the other lab come back.
If he's so sure that the party photos and his client's alibi with the cab ride are rock-solid, plus the lack of conclusive DNA at this point, then why all this other grandstanding?

I hope the judge rules against him.

[Neil Lisst]

10. It's information to which the defense is entitled.

It's standard information, and when a witness' credibility is in issue, his or her prior conduct becomes an issue to the extent that it reflects on his or her capacity to remember, propensity to get high, or her reputation for truthfulness.

The extent to which the information may be used at trial will depend on the judge, and how he rules on the prosecution's motion to suppress any such testimony.

[salin]

15. Yes, but is it common to air the allegations with the press

while seeking the information to prepare their defense?

High profile cases are often media circuses - this one, however, seems more like the parties are intent on fomenting the media circus.

The case sounds so complicated - I wish things could be gagged so that the system could work its course.

[Neil Lisst]

44. It's a MOTION, a public record. It's PUBLIC the instant it's filed.

Why would "gagging" help get justice done?

The public needs to know what is happening in the case, because more and more, it looks like a local DA milking the case for favorable attention to help him win his election.

What kind of progressive ideal are hidden legal proceedings? When there is a real issue about whether it happened or the accuser's truthfulness, there's going to be public concern and scrutiny.

[progressivebydesign]

12. So.. if you're robbed, does the defense go after your background..

you know, bank account, morals, criminal activity, health, emotional background? DO THEY??? Well DO THEY?? OF course fucking NOT!. THIS IS WHY WOMEN DON'T REPORT RAPES!!! And THIS is why sports figures and celebs get out of rape convictions.

[LostinVA]

16. You got it, PD

I was waiting for these pigs to start this shit... her legal, medical, mental background. OMG. Just OMG.

[etherealtruth]

24. Exactly .nt

[LisaL]

26. You are exhibiting some fine democratic principles there, buddy.

Ever heard of "presumed innocent until proven guilty"?
There isn't iota of evidence the accused have committed any crimes against this woman, but I guess we should still think they must be guilty, no matter what?

[dogday]

30. That works both ways buddy

both parties are presumed innocent until proven otherwise.. You would do well to heed your own words on this one....

[LisaL]

33. She is not facing over 40 years in prison, is she?

[dogday]

36. She is innocent until proven guilty

remember, your own words....

[alarimer]

35. Bingo

I am disgusted by some of the responses on this thread. There are pigs, apparently, even on DU.

If anyone is lying, I would guess it would be the rich, drunken, asshole, frat boy athletes. They are evidently in training to be the next George W. Bush. Don't take any resposibility for your action and get Daddy or Daddy's rich lawyer friends to bail you out.

[BrownOak]

39. Picking the right targets

I am disgusted by some of the responses on this thread. There are pigs, apparently, even on DU.

If anyone is lying, I would guess it would be the rich, drunken, asshole, frat boy athletes. They are evidently in training to be the next George W. Bush. Don't take any responsibility for your action and get Daddy or Daddy's rich lawyer friends to bail you out.

Pick the wrong target and it's disgusting. Pick the right target and it's OK.

I think it's healthy to discuss the aspects of the case and it's clear that someone is lying. But picking that person (or those persons) based solely on the fact that they fall into an unpopular profile is offensive if it's a DU'er picking the suspects or a freeper picking the alleged victim.

One of the things that makes this such an interesting topic here is that there should be a difficult conflict between the support for this alleged victim and the presumption of innocence for the accused, who would normally be people not likely to get much support on these forums because of their assumed background. That dichotomy makes for a very dynamic discussion which gets lost when this type of assumption is made.

[timber84]

48. I believe the stereotype of being "a rich white kid" is just as bad

as "she's less of a person cause she's a stripper"

[AllieB]

50. Rich white kids have all the privileges. How is that as much of an insult

as some of the abuse that strippers have to endure because of their profession? Apples and oranges.

[timber84]

51. Stereotyping someone is wrong I thought most of DU was above that

apparently I was wrong. Apples and oranges have nothing to do with that.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. And this has to be made public why?

I think the defence attourney is acting entirely properly in doing so - his moral duty under an adversarial system of justice is to use all means legally at his disposal to get his client aquitted - but how the hell can the media justify reporting this, and why isn't doing so illegal?

Even if it turns out that his allegations are false, they'll still stick, and blacken her name permanently. He was still right to make them public given that he was allowed to, but he shouldn't have been allowed to.

The same, in reverse, is true of the accused - they'll have a cloud of suspicion hanging over them for the rest of their lives even if found not guilty.

Rape and other sensitive crimes should only be reported after the verdict is in, and that only vaguely, unless there's a strong public-interest motive (e.g. a politician is involved or it may help to make witnesses come forward), and even then in as little detail as possible.

[LisaL]

19. The attorney filed a notion.

I assumed it's made public because those notions are public record.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

21. Sorry,

I meant "what is the gain to society from publicising this and things like this", not "what is the process of events leading to this being publicised".

[LisaL]

25. Our court proceedings are public. Always have been.

[dogday]

32. I think the word is motion

they file motions with the court not notion...

[BrownOak]

37. I second that enotion n/t

[dogday]

56. I like that one

:hi:

[hexola]

28. What if : Kim put the date rape drug in her drink...? (nt)

[LisaL]

31. For what purpose?

What evidence is there that any date rape drugs were ever placed in her drink?

[hexola]

34. Competition...

Werent the girls stangers to each other?

I have no idea what evidence there is regarding anything in this case...no one does.

Just speculating...

[The Straight Story]

41. Did they go after clinton's accusers like this?

:shrug:

[theboss]

42. Yes

Blumenthal called Lewinsky a "stalker."

[theboss]

43. I hate this story

This is a local story on which we have limited information. So it becomes a prism through which everyone sees their own victimhood. Everyone with an agenda from Rush Limbaugh to Jesse Jackson is going to find some "truth" in this and all it is going to do is reinforce their own preconceived notions of race, class, wealth, and gender.

[NaturalHigh]

45. The defense attorney is doing his job.

Do you expect him to just sit back and let his client get barbecued in the media without firing back?

[Neil Lisst]

46. it reminds me of the Mister Boffo comic strip

the ones labeled "People Unclear on the Concept"

When I look at this case, I see everyone doing what he or she would be expected to be doing - DA, defense counsel, TV news folks.

The Defense is supposed to do what it can to help his client, and most of these guys seriously believe in their client.