Are we as US citizens responsible, as Bin Laden says?

[Haole Girl]

Bin Laden and other al Qaeda figures use the term "crusaders" to refer to Christians.
He also says on the new tape that any such war "is the joint responsibility of the people and the government."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/23/binladen.tape/index.html



The above got me thinking; are we responsible? I didn't vote for George W. Bush (either time). And, I try to persuade anyone and everyone to think about what actions he and his administration have taken. So, why am I responsible? Are YOU responsible?

I'm sorry, but what would Bin Laden like us to do? Would he like us to get arrested, end up in GITMO, be placed on the "No Fly List"? This one just didn't sit well with me.

[Terran1212]

1. Our tax dollars pay for Muslim deaths and Muslim oppression, don't they?

I don't think all of us deserve to be suicide bombed or anything, but we are culpable, unfortunately.

Think about it:

Americans too busy gourging themselves on American Idol and McDonald's while people all over the world are butchered by their government.

It's not exactly a situation which sets you and me up to get a lot of favorable opinions from the world.

[Patchuli]

10. Did we all ask them to use our hard-earned money

to do the wrong they do? No, we didn't. I would just as soon see those billions going into American schools, hospitals, national parks and caring for our own. I'd like to see Katrina, etc. victims getting roofs over their heads, food and jobs in their own cities. I'm damn sick of seeing my own getting screwed over by the BFEE.

I refuse any "culpability" on this one. I stand in the street with the others and protest this heinous 'war.' I write letters to the editors, I sign petitions and I donate which is getting harder and harder to do to stop the wrongs being done in mine or this land's name.

The Repubs broke the pottery and they bought it. I have taxation without representation.

[Mythsaje]

19. Taxation without representation...

Ain't it the truth?

[anarch]

36. try living in DC

At least the local government is still allowed to put that exact phrase on the license plates.

[Mythsaje]

39. Some of us in the rest of the country

don't feel particularly well represented either.

[Terran1212]

22. We didn't, but they're doing it and we're not doing enough about it

If that makes sense....

[Patchuli]

25. I don't know what personally any of us can

do besides what I mentioned. But enough of us are empowering those who can make a difference, like our Dem leaders (like Gore!) and others who are speaking out and loudly. Even the decent Repubs appear to have had enough. The pendulum is going to swing back to the left...

[Terran1212]

27. I don't exactly think Gore is the one to save the Muslims

Global warming, maybe...

[Patchuli]

35. Well we don't know because we naturally

had peace while he and Big Dawg were in charge. On the other hand, stopping global warming will save ALL of us, not just Muslims!

[KAZ]

32. Yes, we did, and continue to. Each and every day...

... that we allow this regime to remain. Each and every day that we go about our business, going to work, topping off our SUVs, paying our taxes, sitting at home watching Trump and the island people. Each and every day when the majority of American people can't be bothered to protest what is being done in their name. They can barely be bothered to even think about it. That's why Shrub's numbers are going down. The hell he's created is getting too hard for the masses to ignore, and it's interfering with their illusions, their entertainment.

[Mythsaje]

2. Fuck Bin Laden...

Far as I'm concerned he and the Bush gang are soulmates.

I've opposed these assholes over here LONG before Bin Laden was anything but a rich Saudi Prince. Fuck him and the camel he rode in on.

[Ecumenist]

8. What she said...

:applause: :applause:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

59. He - actually...

but you get points for agreeing. :)

[Jim Lane]

33. I agree. Bin Laden is just another religious fanatic.

People like him and Bush see the world in black and white. They have no patience for the dreaded "nuance". If you told bin Laden that you voted against Bush, his response would likely be to paraphrase the line so beloved by American militarists: "Kill 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out."

[Kerrytravelers]

43. * can't spell "nuance," We can't possibly expect him to grab a dictionary.

[libhill]

54. Agreed -

just a Repuke ploy to scare people into voting for their sorry fucking asses. "Uh oh, we got our ass in a crack. Let's break out Been Forgotten and show these people how only Dubya can keep Amurka safe". He's probably on the C.I.A. payroll. And didn't Shrub comment once about how he wasn't worried about Bin Laden? But then, why would he be worried about a friend and asset? Just gotta love them Freudian slips.

[Patchuli]

3. That's assuming of course, that OBL

is not in on the scheme against the American People with the B*sh Family Crime Cartel. Notice how a tape gets trotted out each time Jr. needs some help? I think it backfires at this point though. It just points out how B*sh cannot capture the big jerk and Jr.'s numbers are in the toilet where they will probably stay. Even the stupid scared soccer mom types ought to be wising up about all this 'terra, terra, terra!' by now.

However, if OBL were for real? He's as full of sh*t as B*sh. We people are not responsible for what the morons in the government are doing and would see it stop if we could immediately. OBL can go **** himself.

[Haole Girl]

4. Yes I wondered that also

And if Jr., as you say, is behind the tape it just infuriates me further!

[Patchuli]

12. Funny how they come out always

just as Jr. has a problem...maybe he paid OBL for a couple dozen scare tapes?
:tinfoilhat:

By the way, welcome to DU! :hi:

[savemefromdumbya]

18. Yes you are correct

[libhill]

56. Well, praise the Lawd!

I was beginning to think I was the only person in the freakin' US of A to notice that shit. It's like, "oh no, it's the booger man! Run fer cover and vote Repuke, cuz only Bush can save us!" Bull goddamn freakin' shit. It's a scare tactic for the Rethugs, to get the simple minded ass American publics mind off of all the atrocities and scandals these ass hats have perpetrated, and continue to perpetrate.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Read......

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0471678783.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0471678783/sr=8-1/qid=1145830810/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1002596-3084617?%5Fencoding=UTF8

With breezy storytelling and diligent research, Kinzer has reconstructed the CIA's 1953 overthrow of the elected leader of Iran, Mohammad Mossadegh, who was wildly popular at home for having nationalized his country's oil industry. The coup ushered in the long and brutal dictatorship of Mohammad Reza Shah, widely seen as a U.S. puppet and himself overthrown by the Islamic revolution of 1979. At its best this work reads like a spy novel, with code names and informants, midnight meetings with the monarch and a last-minute plot twist when the CIA's plan, called Operation Ajax, nearly goes awry. A veteran New York Times foreign correspondent and the author of books on Nicaragua (Blood of Brothers) and Turkey (Crescent and Star), Kinzer has combed memoirs, academic works, government documents and news stories to produce this blow-by-blow account. He shows that until early in 1953, Great Britain and the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company were the imperialist baddies of this tale. Intransigent in the face of Iran's demands for a fairer share of oil profits and better conditions for workers, British Foreign Secretary Herbert Morrison exacerbated tension with his attitude that the challenge from Iran was, in Kinzer's words, "a simple matter of ignorant natives rebelling against the forces of civilization." Before the crisis peaked, a high-ranking employee of Anglo-Iranian wrote to a superior that the company's alliance with the "corrupt ruling classes" and "leech-like bureaucracies" were "disastrous, outdated and impractical." This stands as a textbook lesson in how not to conduct foreign policy.

”…meticulously documented throughout…essential reading…” (Medicine Conflict and Survival, Vol. 21(4) October 2005)

That the past is prolog is especially true in this astonishing account of the 1953 overthrow of nationalist Iranian leader Mohammed Mossadegh, who became prime minister in 1951 and immediately nationalized the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company. This act angered the British, who sought assistance from the United States in overthrowing Mossedegh's fledgling democracy. Kermit Roosevelt, Teddy's grandson, led the successful coup in August 1953, which ended in the reestablishment of the Iranian monarchy in the person of Mohammad Reza Shah. Iranian anger at this foreign intrusion smoldered until the 1979 revolution. Meanwhile, over the next decade, the United States successfully overthrew other governments, such as that of Guatemala. Kinzer, a New York Times correspondent who has also written about the 1954 Guatemala coup (Bitter Fruit: The Story of the American Coup in Guatemala), tells his captivating tale with style and verve. This book leads one to wonder how many of our contemporary problems in the Middle East may have resulted from this covert CIA adventure. Recommended for all collections. —Ed Goedeken, Iowa S tate Univ. Lib., Ames (Library Journal, June 15, 2003)



http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805078614/ref=pd_sim_b_1/103-1002596-3084617?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

The recent ouster of Saddam Hussein may have turned "regime change" into a contemporary buzzword, but it's been a tactic of American foreign policy for more than 110 years. Beginning with the ouster of Hawaii's monarchy in 1893, Kinzer runs through the foreign governments the U.S. has had a hand in toppling, some of which he has written about at length before (in All the Shah's Men, etc.). Recent invasions of countries such as Grenada and Panama may be more familiar to readers than earlier interventions in Iran and Nicaragua, but Kinzer, a foreign correspondent for the New York Times, brings a rich narrative immediacy to all of his stories. Although some of his assertions overreach themselves—as when he proposes that better conduct by the American government in the Spanish-American War might have prevented the rise of Castro a half-century later—he makes a persuasive case that U.S. intervention destabilizes world politics and often leaves countries worse off than they were before. Kinzer's argument isn't new, but it's delivered in unusually moderate tones, which may earn him an audience larger than the usual crew of die-hard leftists. (Apr.)

[stillcool]

6. I am as responsible.....

as the German people were for their governments annihaltion of hordes of people of jewish decent. I personally realize, that whatever consequences occur as a result of the actions taken by my government, are ones I will not avoid. The responsibility to change, is one that keeps nagging at me, but I still repel in favor of comfort.

[Ecumenist]

7. Responsible for what?

I didn't vote for that idiot and have never suppported his murderous agenda

[acmejack]

9. If you call yourself an American, I suppose you must accept the onus

I hate to admit it, I like the rest, opposed this out of the box. The limits of my influence have been very apparent, hell, I've been told by a psychiatrist that I am "delusional about the Government." Even so, we must accept responsibility for the actions of our Countrymen, our Army's bombs, in the eyes of the World, we are most certainly responsible for the obscene spectacle that was "Shock and Awe".

[sweetheart]

21. Its true, we are responsible

I won't file any tax returns until 2008 or an impeachment. I don't
give money to criminals to murder... every taxpayer dollar bought
a bullet that murdered an iraqi civilian last year.. how many taxpayers
were radical enough to make sure it was not *them* paying for it in any way.

Few... most people are lazy... so what, can't be bothered to do anything
but not vote for the bastard.

[Patchuli]

37. But then you aren't funding any of the systems

that you too use. Is that right? I don't think so...

[sweetheart]

42. Like ? the passport i paid for

I don't use any US services. The pompous bigots in
washington can dream up the fantasy that they are owed
for "existing"... but i'm fed up with that. I'm sure
that somebody was gonna drink that tea they dumped in
boston harbour that day, and surely that person commented
on the tragic waste of good tea.

I don't support their imperial vision, nor their vision
of corporate subsidies, or their vision of a global prison
of free prisoners in cell blocks without sharp objects.

That the crimes are not manufactured out of my own blood
money, does allow me to sleep at night, however much
lost interest payments on rich people's debt they'd
like to squeeze out.

[Patchuli]

44. Well if you don't live in the U.S. I can understand that

but if you do, you use roads and other services.

[sweetheart]

46. pay where you live

I pay my taxes here.
... square with caesar...

Its not an issue of shirking my obligations, but
rather assuming them for once.

[smitty]

11. Who cares what OBL says, he's an asshole.

If we use his reasoning then Muslims are collectively responsible for 9/11, the Bali bombing, the Madrid bombings, the London bombing and any other act of terrorism done in the name of Allah. Sorry, I don't buy it.

[Skip Intro]

13. I can't just assume that bin laden really put out this tape

or that he, in fact, is anything more (at this point, anyway) than a puppet boogeyman, a character created and used by war profiteers.

[Haole Girl]

15. A Wag the Dog, huh?

I've wondered this many times. But, things are seldom as they seem and it would almost be too simple. Then again, that is so Rovian, isn't it? It can make ones head spin.

[libhill]

62. Bingo -

n/t

[mike_c]

14. it's a democracy, more or less...

...and we might not have voted for the pig bastard, and we might want to see him in irons at The Hague some day, but Osama is essentially right-- in a democracy power flows from the consent of the governed. That raises interesting questions about the legitimacy of "American democracy," doesn't it?

[walldude]

16. He's an ass, as big an ass as Bush

however when he call's the fundies Crusaders he's just repeating what Bush so proudly claimed, that we are on a crusade.

[savemefromdumbya]

17. Tapes are fake

besides Osama is George's best friend.

[PublicWrath]

20. He doesn't want us to do anything. He's trying to couch terrorism that

kills and maims innocent people as righteous warfare. His line of crap is just an attempt to "justify" evil acts and he's playing to his own audience.

Generally speaking, I think many Americans ought to know more about the rest of world and pay closer attention to what our government gets up to.
However, I think many of us have been working pretty hard to restrain bush, and will be working even harder soon.

I didn't vote for b* either time. Under a normal American government we'd have put a halt to much of what bush has done, but the character of this particular administration has really pulled some of the teeth of public outrage. Nevertheless, we'll have to fight harder, and not on behalf of bin laden's exhortations, either.

No, I don't feel responsible for bush's cruelty and aggression. There are some, however, that have fuelled his ambitions (literally, in some cases) and I'm mad as hell at them.

[ConcernedCanuk]

23. Of course the citizens are responsible

.
.
.

Civil wars have been fought in many countries to make the government "toe the line" so to speak

Stolen elections can be "righted" by the people if they fight back enough

but fear and complacency are ruling in the United States right now

"home of the brave"

that may have been true 2 centuries ago

but it sure ain't true now

[Patchuli]

28. "2 centuries ago?!"

I beg your pardon but I am proud to be the daughter of World War 2 vet and don't you even insinuate that my dad wasn't brave. He and his comrades STOPPED Hitler and the other bastard dictators, remember?

I also resent being told that I am "complacent" and "afraid." I am mad as hell and have been since January 2001. Short of quitting my job and touring with Cindy Sheehan, I do as much as I can. You need to not stereotype everyone.

[ConcernedCanuk]

48. "You need to not stereotype everyone." - I agree,and was not my intent

.
.
.

I hope you realize that my comment was not a personal one, but that only the USA voters can, or could have prevented this ongoing slaughter in the Middle East that was of no threat to the USA.

And they RE-ELECTED Bush

full-well knowing that the genocide would continue

as it does to this day

Between Bush 1 and Bush 2, they have outdone Hitler's genocide many times over

One difference

When Hitler died, - the genocide stopped

After (if ever) the Bush Gang is deposed,

The genocide will continue for millenniums

Google "depleted uranium" if you really want the truth

[Patchuli]

49. I know the truth, thanks

and don't want to be snarky, but saying Americans haven't been brave in two centuries was a bit much. I know exactly what evil slime is in charge of my beloved country and there are patriots who will fight for America no matter what. There were a majority of us who voted for Gore in 2000. There were a majority of us who voted for Kerry in 2004. The repubs have learned how to fix elections, via the 'net. I firmly believe that the totals have been tipped in perhaps the OO itself, by possibly KKKarl. Electronic voting needs to be discontinued until and unless it can be made to be unchangeable and uncheatable.

Either way, you definitely underestimated my Pop's generation! And they raised us who do know how to open the can of kick-ass. It's coming...

[libhill]

57. They were a great generation -

perhaps THE greatest in our history as a nation. My parents were a part of it too. They toughed out the Depression, fought World War Two, came back from war and in large part built the America we know - or used to know, pre Bush Era. But now it's up to us. I don't mean this in an ugly way, but we don't have our moms and our pops to wipe out little butts and hold our hands, or bail us out in a bind. These people are fading fast. And if we don't get our generational shit together, and put pressure on our (honest) politicians to look into the vote rigging, and to stop ceding elections to these fascist fucks before all the facts are out, then kiss it all good bye.

[blonndee]

55. Do you not think a similar thing could happen in your country, as well?

I noticed you guys recently took a big swing to the right, too. You've really been shoving it in our faces today. Not that what you say doesn't have merit, but be careful that you don't get TOO self-righteous. What if Canada goes even further right and your newly-elected PM and his friends do something reprehensible? What if this rightward trend continues, and in 20 years you guys end up like us? Would you be willing to accept responsibility for that? As a voter, like the rest of us, I mean.

[ConcernedCanuk]

64. Could it happen here? - I fear yes, but pray and hope no.

.
.
.

When I researched our "Trans-Canada" pipeline - and found that most of the lines end up in the USA, it makes me wonder . . .

And many other companies like our so-called famous Tim Horton's - which is actually owned by Wendy's - a USA company

I see a distinct possibility that the USA influence may well overtake our governing system.

We USED to have nukes within 50 miles of where I live - and we are TOLD they have been long since removed - but again, I wonder.

As for voting - I have and never will vote for the Conservatives - was Liberal, now vote NDP.

Other than try to convince some to lean left, I can't be held responsible for those that vote to the right. I hope Harper's reign is short lived, and I believe his "success" was more due to the failure of the Liberals to pay attention to the voting public, than a burning desire for us to go "right".

Canada has stupid voters too.

So far, not enough to get us in trouble.

But I'll admit I'm becoming concerned . .

(sigh)

[G2099]

24. "Collectively," yes we the American People are Responsibility

"Collectively," we the American People are the Ultimate and Supreme Force and Power in the nation/country.

[bee]

52. agreed.

Maybe if Americans as a whole weren't so damned complacent. So complacent that they dint even bother to vote.... then MAYBE we wouldn't be in this situation. Its absolutely "our" fault.

[serryjw]

26. Not about OBL but rather 5 decades

of foreign policies. Listen/read John Perkins from Economic Hit Man. The only question is why didn't it happen sooner. We have been screwing the people of this world for decades all for 'our way of life'
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/11/09/1526251
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/12/31/1546207
http://www.economichitman.com/

[readmoreoften]

29. Who the hell knows who OBL is?

As far as I'm concerned he might still be a muckracking agent for the CIA, an agent provocateur who starts fights in the places the US wants to bomb-and-conquer.

[FloridaPat]

30. Were the Germans that helped the Jews escape responbile for Hitler?

Where the members of the French resistance responsible for the defeat of France in WW2? I am beginning to think all wars are like this. There are a few sane people that realize what's happening and are against what their gov't is doing.

I guess the question is: who would Jesus send to hell?

[Imagevision]

31. We're not responsible, the Bush administration is responsible!!

we don't run the country, Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,Condi, they lie to us then state they're doing "it" for the american people horseshit!!

[anarch]

34. perhaps not "as Bin Laden says"...but in a sense

Were the German citizens who were not ardent Nazis, yet also did not actively take part in any resistance partly responsible for the atrocities and aggression of WWII? The rest of the world certainly thought so.

As long as we pay our taxes, and our government continues to engage in aggression, we U.S. citizens will always be at least partly responsible for what is perpetrated in our name. That's why it's so important to do everything we can to make things right.

[SmokingJacket]

38. I'm personally 1/300,000,000 responsible.

So, yes -- but not like trial-at-the-Hague responsible.

[magellan]

40. Bush and bin Laden = terrorists

Both of them think it's reasonable to murder and terrorize people to get their way. The responsible ones are the kool-aid drinkers on both sides who hold these men -- these monsters -- in high regard and give them power.

[nancyr]

41. Responsiblility?

We are no more responsible for the atrocities of Bush than were the thousands of dead Iraq citizens killed by our forces responsible for the atrocities of Hussein. Just more of that "collateral damage"...apparently our leaders decided that the citizens of Iraq were responsible and deserved to die? Wouldn't it be wonderful if the ones that actually start all the wars were the ones who actually had to fight and die for their lunacy? That would be the end of war, don't you agree? I say give them weapons and let them have at it...just leave the rest of us alone.

[cory817]

45. is age an excuse

Technically I wasn't old enough to vote for Reagan or Bush I, who were probably more so responsible with the stuff in Afghanistan and the bases in SA during Gulf War 1, or most presidents since around 1947 that have given support to Israel or had influence over foreign policy in the region. Those are the supposed main reasons for his dislike of the U.S., atleast until now. When were the first OBL related attacks on the embassies like 97-98? I forgot. Like others have said fuck him and *. But ultimately I think we are responsible for our countries actions.

[Patchuli]

50. I was just old enough and voted for neither!

And I'll take no responsibility for those asshats either!!!!! Ronnie Rayyyyyyyygun was my governor and he abused the happy freaky people of the Golden State! Then he abused America. :-( Bush? Bush just sucked. But he sucked a lot less than his disastrous offsrping.

[melm00se]

47. I'm sorry, but what would Bin Laden like us to do?

According to Michael Swetnam from the Potomac Institute of Policy Studies:

"The only way we could satisfy Osama bin Laden is not by leaving the Middle East, not by leaving Iraq or Saudi Arabia, but by leaving the planet."

[SPKrazy]

51. Fuck Bin Laden

Who the hell cares what he wants or doesn't want

fuck him

[libhill]

53. Why worry

about what Bin Laden says. The man is a religious fanatic, a murderer, a terrorist. He's only still running free, because his family has ties to the BFEE. Although I don't believe Bin Laden had shit to do with 9/11 (inside job, tinfoil hat my ass) - I give the ass wipe no credence. I'm not so sure he isn't holed up some where compliments of Bush and the C.I.A., only to be conveniently trotted out any time the Rethugs get their collective ass in a crack. And I wouldn't give spit for Repuke chances in the Nov. election. "Vote for us, so we can continue to screw you at every turn, and get filthy rich at your expense. Otherwise, this A-RAB BOOGER MAN WILL GET YOU" -

[StrongbadTehAwesome]

58. ??? "what would Bin Laden like us to do?" Since when should we care?

To me, Bin Laden and Bush are kindred spirits. They operate from a similar mindset, just on different sides of an ideological divide. Both are wealthy sons of wealthy men willing to risk others' lives to advance their own cause. They are fighting against one another and trying to stick us in the middle.



I will not listen to UBL saying I am responsible for the war in Iraq, a potential war with Iran, or any other Bush insanity.

Neither do I listen to Bush when he says people like me live in a "pre-9/11 world" and make America less safe by voicing our anger when civil liberties are threatened.



Fuck them both.

[Zorra]

60. No. Not all of us agree with globalism and imperialism. To kill

innocent people indiscriminately is the essence of madness.

Bin Laden is just the same as Bu*h in that they both kill innocent people indiscriminately.

[Bucky]

61. Like all propagandists, bin Laden starts with a grain of truth

As a voting tax payer in a democracy, sure, I share ultimate responsibility for what the government does in my name, whether I consent to it or not. If I own a dog and my dog bites the neighbor's kid, it's my responsibility, even if the dog broke loose from my yard before it went and attacked Iraq, I mean the kid. I just don't think I should sit and listen to a lecture on responsibility from the crazed ax-murdering child molester down the street if my dog is out of control.

Bin Laden is a powerless, impotent little shit and if we had even half a president right now he'd be dangling from the nearest gallows by now. I think we can safely ignore any critiques he offers to us between now and the time that we can finally get a president with the brains and balls to do the right job on that useless turd of human being. Um, with all due apologies to any turds who feel insulted by that comparison.

[BreweryYardRat]

63. We are not.

That damn murdering lunatic is trying to fuck with people's heads. The Bush illegal government is responsible for Iraq, and bin Laden and the Taliban are responsible for Afghanistan-we, as citizens are not responsible for either.

Fuck that murdering faux-Muslim fanatic-he's one of the few people I hate more than Bush and Co.