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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:04 AM
Original message
What are your feelings over censuring Bush?
necessary - not necessary - it wouldn't matter?
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
1. Censure my ass! IMPEACH!
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ScreamingMeemie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. If it paves the way to a criminal investigation and indictment, I'm behind
it 200%.
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abluelady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. It is a First Step
I would like to see it done and taken to imprisonment.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
4. Until he's impeached he needs a colar put on him because he's no decider
just making matters worse!
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IsIt1984Yet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
5. Feingold said it best...
“The President must be held accountable for authorizing a program that clearly violates the law and then misleading the country about its existence and its legality,” Feingold said. “The President’s actions, as well as his misleading statements to both Congress and the public about the program, demand a serious response. If Congress does not censure the President, we will be tacitly condoning his actions, and undermining both the separation of powers and the rule of law.”

He's opening the door to discussion of impeachment but doing it in a way that even Republicans can potentially discuss: censure. Starting out with "censure" is a more effective wedge than "impeachment" is, and it still gets you into the same conversation, reframing the debate the way you want it.

Start with "impeachment," and you could still see some few points of bounce for the president. After all, while under impeachment threats, Clinton's numbers stayed stubbornly high. There was a rally to the president effect, because people saw the impeachment effort as overblown and partisan.
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Double T Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
6. This guy needs more than a slap on the wrist and a good spanking.....
Edited on Sun Apr-23-06 11:14 AM by Double T
it's beyond time for impeachment proceedings to begin. Major deception, corruption and lies have sent this nation into a tailspin, thanks to bushco. If impeachment is appropriate for blow-jobs, then it is assuredly appropriate for complete incompetence and criminal behavior.
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trof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:13 AM
Response to Original message
7. I'd much rather just kick his ass.
Oh shit.
I guess I'm in trouble now.
:scared:
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. I agree, no censure then we're condoning Bush's actions!
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
9. duct tape apple.. ...handcuffs.. ..underwear on head
anything to shut him up...he makes my stomach turn:puke:

i am listening to cnn right now and i hear the sound clip 'I HEAR THE VOICES"............ what a friggin idiot:rofl:

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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. eeewww good underwear on head sentence! Like the duct tape tooo!
:rofl:
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. those undies should be nasty too
would give credibility to me calling him a shithead all the time
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. eewwww a shitface.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. if we use the apple....then we must stick french fries up his nose
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. vienna sausages.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. make sure we get those very large rectal probes
and get your phone camera ready
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msgadget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:20 AM
Response to Original message
10. Necessary. n/t
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left is right Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
12. IF
there is any chance that censure would impede impeachment, I say fore go censure
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
13. Waste of time. The punishment doesn't fit the crimes. I'm for
investigations leading to indictments, convictions and jail time. Nothing less.
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Sinti Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. He should be sent before the Hague for war crimes
i.e., waging a war of aggression against a non-threatening sovereign nation. If censure helps him along the road to that justice, I'm all for it.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 11:58 AM
Response to Original message
20. Great to put the Rethugs on record. Is the president "above the law?"
Edited on Sun Apr-23-06 11:59 AM by flpoljunkie
Or is he to be held unaccountable, like a king?
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
21. I support Sen. Feingold's censure motion, and would support
Edited on Sun Apr-23-06 01:24 PM by Old Crusoe
John Conyers-led subpoenas of documents in support of articles of impeachment. The U.S. House would have to flip blue for Conyers to have a shot at a successful effort, though, so much volunteer and support work for our local Dem candidates needs to occur between now and Nov. 7th.

I expect it will be nasty going for Democrats because the Bush White House, dense as it is on public service and altruism and leadership and citizenship and honor, is nevertheless extremely keen on Swiftboating and bullshit and smear tactcs.

This is going to be a battle with many bruises, and it's definitely worth fighting.

Feingold's censure for the short term, certainly. A blue House and a Conyers-directed impeachment proceeding after a summer and fall of hard work.
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Robbie Michaels Donating Member (612 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 01:27 PM
Response to Original message
22. Censuring Isn't Good Enough
He's done worse than Nixon, and we know what happened with him.
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Neil Lisst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
23. I backed Feingold on it, but it's moot now. The public is done with Bush.
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DanCa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
24. Not far enough
If a Democrat did the things that the Chimp has done they'd be calling for public lynchings.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-23-06 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
25. We assume the President would leave office if impeached and convicted.
He may not. Things could be that bad. He may even choose to not leave office in 2009. All possibilities are on the table. The President is truly bad, and I know this because I went and researched it.

Here are my findings:
The Events of 9/11/2001
He was warned about the potential for airplane hijackings on August 6, 2001 in a Presidential Daily Briefing and took no actions to increase airport security. This inaction may have lead to the deaths of approximately 3,000 people on or about the 11th of September in the year 2001. The text of that daily briefing is included as evidence:
Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S.
Clandestine, foreign government, and media reports indicate Bin Ladin since 1997 has wanted to conduct terrorist attacks in the US. Bin Ladin implied in US television interviews in 1997 and 1998 that his followers would follow the example of World Trade Center bomber Ramzi Yousef and "bring the fighting to America."
After US missile strikes on his base in Afghanistan in 1998, Bin Ladin told followers he wanted to retaliate in Washington, according to a service.
An Egyptian Islamic Jihad (EIJ) operative told an service at the same time that Bin Ladin was planning to exploit the operative's access to the US. to mount a terrorist strike.
The millennium plotting in Canada in 1999 may have been part of Bin Ladin's first serious attempt to implement a terrorist strike in the US. Convicted plotter Ahmed Ressam has told the FBI that he conceived the idea to attack Los Angeles International Airport himself, but that Bin Ladin lieutenant Abu Zubaydah encouraged him and helped facilitate the operation. Ressam also said that in 1998 Abu Zubaydah was planning his own US attack.
Ressam says Bin Ladin was aware of the Los Angeles operation.
Although Bin Ladin has not succeeded, his attacks against the US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998 demonstrate that he prepares operations years in advance and is not deterred by setbacks. Bin Ladin associates surveilled our Embassies in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam as early as 1993, and some members of the Nairobi cell planning the bombings were arrested and deported in 1997.
Al-Qa'ida members—including some who are US citizens—have resided in or traveled to the US for years, and the group apparently maintains a support structure that could aid attacks. Two Al Qa'ida members found guilty in the conspiracy to bomb our Embassies in East Africa were US citizens, and a senior EIJ member lived in California in the mid-1990s.
A clandestine source said in 1998 that a Bin Ladin cell in New York was recruiting Muslim-American youth for attacks.
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a service in 1998 saying that Bin Ladin wanted to hijack a US aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Shaykh" 'Umar 'Abd al-Rahman and other US-held extremists.
—Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full field investigations throughout the US that it considers Bin Ladin-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group of Bin Ladin supporters was in the US planning attacks with explosives.


Illegal Electronic Surveillance
He authorized a program of electronic surveillance that allows the National Security Agency to surveil our people without court orders. This program is in violation of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 and the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution. This is an usurpation of the Judicial Branch and its check upon the Executive. The House and Senate intelligence committees were not appropriately informed of the program as required by the National Security Act of 1947. The President and his allies have repeatedly accused individuals critical of the program of indirectly supporting al-Qaeda. He omits the fact that al-Qaeda is aided even more by the destabilizing of our government, which this is but one part of.

The War on Terror, The Iraq War, and Torture
His 2003 State of The Union Address contained false statements as to the nuclear threat Iraq posed. The National Journal recently published a story stating the President knew this information to be incorrect and that is a violation of 18 U.S.C. 1001(a, c.)

He launched a war upon the nation of Iraq. This war is unnecessary, as Iraq had no significant quantities of weapons of mass destruction or programs to create said weapons. The President created fear and subsequently support for the war by indicating the smoking gun, "could come in the form of a mushroom cloud." Iraq had no nuclear weapons or development programs for said weapons. It remains unclear why exactly the President exaggerated the threat to the USA from Iraq. As of April 7, 2006, the number of American soldiers killed in the Iraq War is 2,347.

After the war began, he declassified parts of the National Intelligence Estimate that appeared to support his position on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. He did not disclose the other parts that proved his statements in the State of The Union Address were false. It appears he manipulated the press to gain support for the war.

Former Ambassador Joseph Wilson published an article in the New York Times on July 6, 2003 that disputed the Presidents claims about Iraq. Wilson's wife, Valerie Plame-Wilson was exposed as a covert agent for the Central Intelligence Agency, in what appears to be an administration punishment for the article. It remains unclear if the President authorized or knew of this leak before it became a news story, and it also remains unclear who first revealed the identity of Mrs. Wilson. There is an ongoing investigation into this matter by Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald. I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby was indicted for false statements during the grand jury investigation of this leak.

Jay Bybee, former head of the Office of Legal Counsel at the US Department of Justice, authored a memo on August 1, 2002 that outlines an extreme definition of torture. This definition is so liberal in what is considered torture, that it allows clear violations of American and international law. The memo's legal opinion was superseded on December 30, 2004 by another after intense criticism.

Jose Padilla was arrested at O'Hare international airport May 8, 2002. Mr. Padilla was and is an American citizen. He was held with the status of "unlawful enemy combatant" for almost 3 and a half years. He sued over his detention and eventually the Supreme Court agreed to hear the case. But just as Mr. Padilla's case was to be heard by the Supreme Court, the administration happened to indict Mr. Padilla November 22, 2005. He was not indicted for the original reason given to the public for his detention, which was that he planned a dirty bomb attack. This indictment effectively nullified the issue because he was placed in civilian custody, and subsequently the Supreme Court declined to hear the case.

On April 28, 2004 a report by the television news magazine 60 Minutes II detailed the torture of prisoners held at Abu Graib prison in Iraq. This in combination with years of allegations of torture at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba and the discovery of the Bybee memo makes it highly likely torture was authorized by the President. There have been no Presidents in American history whom have authorized torture.

December 30, 2005 the President issued a signing statement for H.R. 2863. In this statement the President justified construing Title X of 2863 to not apply when national security interests "of protecting the American people from further terrorist attacks" demand so. Unfortunately, Title X is the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005, which protects accused terrorists from being tortured. There was no exception made for national security interests, as torture does not usually provide reliable information and because of the potential of torturing an innocent person. This is further evidence that the President authorized torture.

Hurricane Katrina
Hurricane Katrina made landfall on August 29, 2005. 1,604 people have been confirmed dead as a result of this hurricane. Thousands more are still missing. The President was cautioned about the deadly nature of the hurricane and was not circumspect of inaction. Is it absolutely certain the President caused the death of at least one person because of his inaction. Therefore President Bush is guilty of involuntary manslaughter outlined in 18 U.S.C. §1112(a). The Gulf Coast region is still recovering from the storm almost eight months later. Many families have been destroyed. It remains unclear if the city of New Orleans and other cities in Louisiana and Mississippi will ever fully recover.


Conclusion
It is necessary to remove the President from office through impeachment. Censure is weak and ineffective because he would remain in power.

There is a dichotomy; the President could be playing the American people, or he could be an incompetent fool. The choice is yours.
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