"Strong Fathers, Strong Daughters" by Meg Meeker

[Stuckinthebush]

My brother in law called to say that he was sending a book to me that he said he loved and thought I needed to read since I had three daughters. I was suspicious because he is a die-hard FOX news watcher and non-critical thinker. He knows my politics well, and so I figured he wouldn't send me a blatantly conservative book.

It arrived today from Amazon - a fresh book! I checked the author: Meg Meeker, M.D. I didn't know anything about her, so I looked at the back cover. There were quotes from a Dr. Armand Nicholi, a psychiatrist at Harvard. Nothing scary yet. There was one from Elayne Bennett, president of the Best Friends Foundation. Didn't know her, but her last name was scary. Then there was a quote from David Limbaugh, Rush's brother. Red Flag!!!

So, I open the jacket and begin to read out loud to my wife sitting across the room from me:

"The most important person in a young girl's life? Her father. That's right - and teen health expert Dr. Meg Meeker has the data and clinical experience to prove it. After more than twenty years of counseling girls, she knows that fathers, more than anyone else, set the course for their daughters' lives. Now Dr. Meeker, author of the critically acclaimed 'Epidemic: How Teen Sex Is Killing Our Kids', shows you how to strengthen or rebuild your bond with your daughter, and how to use it to shape her life, and yours, for the better"


OK...as a critical social theorist, I can de-construct the language in the first paragraph, and the title of the author's other book is a bit right wingie sounding, but aside from the removal of mothers as important figures in a teen girls life, no other blaring warning sirens are going off yet. My wife looks at me with furrowed brow....I continue...


"Directly challenging the feminist attack on traditional masculinity...."

My wife screams, "THERE IT IS!"

"....Dr. Meeker demonstrates that the most important factor for girls growing up into confident, well adjusted women is a strong father with conservative values. To have one, she shows, is the best protection against eating disorders, failure in school, STDs, unwed pregnancy and drug or alcohol abuse - and the best predictor of academic achievement, successful marriage, and a satisfying emotional life."

By this point my wife is yelling, "What is with my brother? Does he not get it? Does he not understand that we abhor this shit?"

Well, I'll leave the psychoanalysis to my psychiatrist wife, but I would say that he doesn't have a critical bone in his body. Not one. I don't think he intentionally purchased a conservative book to send to us in order to piss us off...I just think he doesn't get it.

Well, my question to all of the wonderful thinkers in this group is, "What the hell should I do with this?"

Clearly, it is going to make my blood boil to read it, but perhaps I should read it and dissect it bit by bit for my brother in law. But will that help? I don't know if he knows that I consider myself a feminist, but shouldn't he? How can I use this opportunity to inject some little bit of critical analysis in his FOX-based world?

There is a long shot that if I read this, it won't be so bad. But based on the jacket, I have little hope of that.

My other question is, "What do we know about this Meg Meeker?" I did a quick Google on her, and she has been a feature speaker at some conservative meetings, and she has a host of conservative books out. Anything else from the feminists blogs that might be helpful for me to know as I de-construct this book?

Thanks!

[bloom]

1. I don't have time to waste on crappy books

but you can do what you want.

I have a sister and brother who each gave me super stupid books - one against Darwin (actually that was for my son - an attempt to indoctrinate him) and one against women (from my sister - she eventually saw the light). I kept the books - just because they are so bizarre.

As far as the book you refer to - I don't know anything about it, but I think this concept is super-offensive, "the removal of mothers as important figures in a teen girls life".

I think having the role model of a mother who is a professional is a wonderfully important thing.

As far as:

"....Dr. Meeker demonstrates that the most important factor for girls growing up into confident, well adjusted women is a strong father with conservative values. To have one, she shows, is the best protection against eating disorders, failure in school, STDs, unwed pregnancy and drug or alcohol abuse - and the best predictor of academic achievement, successful marriage, and a satisfying emotional life."

The main thing is that children do better with fathers who are not liars or abusers and fathers who see women as people - not as objects. That is what the statement is mostly suggesting. It is also trying to suggest that "Traditional" fathers have a lock on that. Liberal people would disagree. (There are some men around here who are professionals at selling "the women as object" concept - I don't consider them to be liberals or traditionalists - and I don't think that they do, either).

Beyond that - nurturers instead of whacked-out-strict-authoritarian-father-figures set the best example and have the potential to offer the most encouragement and a positive role model as men.

[Stuckinthebush]

7. Ain't that the truth!

That's my dilemma. I don't have time to read crap, yet I feel obligated to read it since he sent it to me in what I think was good faith. He is clueless. Also, reading it will allow me to de-construct it much better so I can send him a point by point rebuttal.

It is interesting that he would not see this as a slap at his sister. The whole notion that the father-daughter relationship trumps the mother-daughter relationship is not only absurd, it is insulting. Of course, his sister is a very strong woman who has always asserted her independence. I am sure he is very curious as to how his family developed a Democrat not to mention an agnostic.

We teach our daughters to think, ask questions, and critically analyze their world. They have a strong mother and a loving father, both of whom are tree hugging, bunny kissing liberals! I hope they turn out just fine....I think they will. And frankly, I don't want my daughters attached to an overbearing, conservative, "masculine" guy. I'm sure the author would say that would be best.

[Warpy]

15. I'd send it to him

and say you didn't have time to read anything beyond the blurb, but it looked like something you really wouldn't be interested in, ever, and he might possibly be able to find someone it would be a more appropriate gift for.

That's the tactful way to tell him the book is a crock of shit, that your life is too important to waste reading right wing garbage, and that he really needs to consider what he's doing when he sends out right wing crap to people who find it reprehensible.

[bloom]

2. P.S. - "Metaphor, Morality, and Politics..."

If you or someone else has missed this Lakoff essay on the "Strict Father Model" (the "traditional", anti-feminist idea that Meeker is pushing) - here it is online:

http://www.wwcd.org/issues/Lakoff.html

Metaphor, Morality, and Politics, Or, Why Conservatives Have Left Liberals In the Dust


It might help with your deconstruction.

[Stuckinthebush]

8. Thank you!

Looks great...I appreciate the link!

[geniph]

3. Wow, by that logic, I should be living under the freeway

I not only had no father, I had no father figure (my bio-father absconded when I was six weeks old and I was brought up by lesbians with essentially no exposure to adult males at all).

I never had an eating disorder. I had straight A's for most of my school career. I've never had an STD (what the hell does a father have to do with that?!), I've never been pregnant, and I've never abused drugs and alcohol. I have a successful marriage, a very successful career, and I'm a functional, taxpaying citizen.

How can such a thing be? How can I possibly have become a confident, well-adjusted woman without any father figure, let alone a strong one with conservative values? Must be sheer anomaly, right?

:eyes:

[melnjones]

4. For real...

and with my mom as dysfunctional as she is, I DID end up with an eating disorder and various other struggles. It's not at all uncommon for girls with eating disorders to have lots of mom issues...probably even the norm to be honest. So yeah, the premise of the argument is just a load of crap.

[bliss_eternal]

13. I'm sorry to hear this...

melnjones. :hug: As one from a family of women with MAJOR body issues, I understand and my heart goes out to you.

[bloom]

5. I expect if there was ever a study

that showed that women did better statistically if they were raised by two women instead of by a man and a women that it would never see the light of day in the media.


Women are supposed to be dependent on men - at least that is the conservative meme. They wouldn't want people thinking that men are not necessary.

[bliss_eternal]

14. LOL!

They would promptly burn it and skip around the fire singing and celebrating that they trumped those evil women, yet again. :eyes:

Quote:
I expect if there was ever a study
that showed that women did better statistically if they were raised by two women instead of by a man and a women that it would never see the light of day in the media.

There HAVE been studies stating that women do better in predominate female environments (all girl schools/universities). But you don't hear about that much at all. In fact, I never would have heard it had I not taken interest in attending a women's college at one point.

[ThomCat]

19. I think the study would find exactly that.

Given how divorced most fathers tend to be from any actual partipation in all the work of running a family...

Geez. Two parents who cooperate in the workload, and nurturing the kids, and helping with homework, and with meeting with teachers, etc. I think a lot of families would be MUCH better off with a second mom instead of the culturally typical dad.

And you are right, they would burn every copy of that study in a huge bonfire and have a party to celebrate it.

[ismnotwasm]

6. When in doubt, peruse.

I'm sure it's full of the standard psychobabble. Might even be a few points of debate in there somewhere. It reminds me of the time my sister gave the book "Emotional Incest" (I forget the author) to my brother, due to his---let's say, dependency, on my father. She may or may not have meant to be an asshole. Boy Was Dad Pissed.

As far as the basic premise, it sounds like a bunch of bullshit. The questions that need to be asked, are when, where and WHY are women allowed to be, or have become strong? History hasn't exactly used strength as a cornerstone of femininity. Other than how it relates to motherhood and hearth sweeping.

Strong conservative father would have to be on his knees thanking feminism for the opportunity to raise a strong daughter without the damage strong conservative fathers tend to inflict on daughters with their lock-step expectations of what woman are, should be, look like and behave.

[Stuckinthebush]

9. Just got back from class, and had time to look at the contents...

Get a load of the table of contents:

1 - You are the most important man in her life (OK...I can accept that statement)
2 - She needs a hero (A hero? How about a loving parent who treats her with respect)
3 - You are her first love
4 - Teach her humility (Uh oh...don't want no uppity women)
5 - Protect her, defend her and use a shotgun if necessary (Ah yes, the stereotype of the girl needing to be protected)
6 - Pragmatism and Grit: Two of your greatest assets (Grit? Who am I, John Wayne?)
7 - Be the man you want her to marry (OK...can go with this. Of course, she may not choose to marry or may not want to marry a man)
8 - Teach her who God is (Don't get me started)
9 - Teach her to fight (Hell, I don't even fight, why would I teach her to fight?)
10 - Keep her connected (so she never feels any independence)

This should be fun.

[noamnety]

10. A point about #9

Fighting aggressively isn't a good thing, I'll grant you that. But a lot of feminists would advise you to get your daughters into a self-defense class at some point. Lord knows I would have been better off in my life if I'd had some self-defense training. Domestic violence and date rape being what it is, it's a good thing to know how to deflect blows and take a person down if you need to.

I kind of like number 6 there, mainly because I'd want my daughter to have pragmatism and grit, so it seems like modeling it would be a good thing. Not so she learns that's how "men" are, but so she learns to value those qualities in herself.

[Stuckinthebush]

11. Good points about 9

But I'm still not so sure about 6. Teach your daughter pragmatism says to me that the author believes that this is a trait of men, and a deficiency in women. First, pragmatism isn't always best. Secondly, my oldest daughter is pragmatic as hell...I want her to learn to dream.

Grit? I'm not sure I know how to teach that. Her mother and I can teach them how to stick with something, but to me, grit means a dogged approach to life. Keep pushing...keep pushing. Perhaps the way of zen is better. Find the path of least resistance because that is where you will probably find the solution.

[noamnety]

12. If the author's saying it's a trait inherent in men only

then to hell with him. I don't see any relationship between the gender of a parent and being able to teach useful qualities to their kids.

I think you can be pragmatic and dream at the same time. You ought to be able to make fish puppets and dance around the yard with them when the mood strikes - but when you're hungry (if you're a meat eater) you ought to also be able to gut a fish and know how to cook it. Carry a paintbrush and a pocketknife, in other words.

Grit to me implies having enough toughness that you can work through the tough times when you have to. The path of least resistence has its place, I'm not knocking that at all - there's no point in creating conflict where none needs to exist. But I wish I had a little more grit sometimes, too, and hadn't given up so easily on things I wanted to do because of outside pressures.

[bloom]

16. I was at a career development thing

recently - and one of the things that came up was that women do not promote themselves like men do. Tend to buy the humility thing - more than is helpful. Still.

It's a good thing when men are not pushy. And it's not like pushy women are what is desirable - but women may need to work more on assertiveness and "grit" because they receive so many messages to be passive.

It may be changing nowadays - what with more women still continuing to excel in college and beyond. For a long time and in some environments, still, some very capable teenage girls will cave around 14/15 - and essentially decide (perhaps unconsciously) to stop competing (as if it might be seen as "pushy").

I think one of the worst things is having a father who gives their daughters the message that it doesn't matter what they do - they are going to get married, anyway. To have no expectations. That is opposite of determination and grit.


There is nothing the matter with being pragmatic these days. In this society - it may seem like the best survival technique. People can always do other things. I know of a couple women locally who essentially retired young from their boring, pragmatic, jobs and took up singing - they are having a blast. If your pragmatic daughter has something like that she wants to do - chances are that she'll figure it out.

My daughter thinks that calculus and things like imaginary numbers are the most fun things in life. Who's to say - what someone else's dream is?

[geniph]

17. Am I the only one who's squicked by #3?

"you are her first love"? Is that for real? Maybe it's because I didn't have a (male) father (although my mother's girlfriend was pretty butch), but that says "romantic love" to me, and that in the context of father-daughter relationships, grosses me out.

Is that the way girls regard their fathers? Their first love? Um, ick.

[bloom]

20. That's not how I see it.

Not like it's romantic. (I suppose Freud probably said otherwise).

I think that there can be a sort of adoration thing and girls can enjoy the attention that they get. But that's as far as it goes - as far as I'm concerned.

I remember my first loves - and there wasn't anything similar with my feelings for my father. Other people could have had different experiences.

[noamnety]

21. Yep, that's troubling

It could mean romantic, which is ick.

Or it could be a more pure family love, but then why is it the dads, not the moms, or not the moms and dads equally?

[ismnotwasm]

23. It is a bit presumptuous isn't it?

Why would Mom or a sibling not be a first love?

I know women who adore their fathers. I'm not one of them, but I've come to accept my father for exactly who he is.

He's the guy who told me "There are no REAL men left" He, being of course one of the last of those near mythical creatures. Cracks me up, really.

As he nears the end of his life, he's changed and grown just about as much as he's going to. He still says that, No Real Men. He has certain ideas that would be considered feminist if he wasn't a sexist. Walking dichotomy that man.

NOT my first love, I can saw with full confidence.

[SammyBoy64]

26. I've read it and I'll agree that the author has biases

See believes in God and believes that children are best raised by loving parents.
You may not agree that there is a God. She has seen in her pediatric practice the physical effects on children when they do not havea a loving,concerned father in the family.

I have read the book to its entirety (I encourage you to do the same!)
so here is my spin on the chapters
1 - You are the most important man in her life (Scared me to the point, that I'd never had had sex if I knew I could screw someone's life up that bad that easily_)

2 - She needs a hero (a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities loving paren;thusly is a man who who treats her with respect)

3 - You are her first love (Agape not Eros --> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love)

4 - Teach her humility (Humility is not bad for any human -- its a virtue for all not a concept-tool to subjagate)

5 - Protect her, defend her and use a shotgun if necessary (females ARE more likely to be crime victims than men. Males as a population are large and stronger than females as a population. Even an evolutionist would agree that males evolved larger for hunting /protection purposes)

6 - Pragmatism and Grit: Two of your greatest assets (Grit -- firmness of mind or spirit : unyielding courage in the face of hardship or danger)

7 - Be the man you want her to marry (OK...can go with this. Of course, she may not choose to marry or may not want to marry a man -- so true -- She could choose to become a Catholic Nun!)

8 - Teach her who God is ( perhaps you need to gain a better understanding yourself? But at least read this chapter open-mindly because Dr. Meeker does have some compelling evidence to show that having a lively faith life does lead to better ehalth!)

9 - Teach her to fight (You should teach her to fight because she is more likely to be raped or have her purse snatched than you ever were ... a feminist should support women obtaining martial arts skills -- just because you have a skill does not mean that you will use it. )

10 - Keep her connected (So she always feels like she has an loving, wiser, advocate- even when you advocate for her independence)

[cally]

18. I would just respond with a few rebuttal points and ask him to not

send anymore books. It's too bad he didn't send one of the better books on this topic and the book takes an either/or stand. What I've read is that fathers are very important in a girl's life and that too many back away when the girl enters puberty. The men become uncomfortable being affectionate when their little girl becomes more womanly. The girl experiences as rejection and has difficulty. That doesn't mean that fathers are more important than mothers just that we all play important roles.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

22. What I want to know is:

Why are the conservative authors of this book even concerned with the academic acheivement of young women, given that they usually tend to espouse the view that a woman's primary role is wife and mother? Not that I don't think raising children isn't incredibly important work. It absolutely is. But why encourage a girl to get a medical degree if you don't think she should work as a doctor or researcher once she has children? And if she waits until after the children are grown to pursue her vocation, there's that sticky issue of threatening her conservative hubby's ego. These folks are contradicting themselves, it seems to me.

[bloom]

24. That's a good point.

That's what I was thinking about all of this as well. It's like the father who supports his daughter and her education until she is something like 16 and then the idea is that she is just going to get married, anyway - so what's the difference? Or maybe it makes him look good if he sends her to college - so he does that - with no expectation that she will support herself.

And so then he has done his part - until the daughter doesn't get married and has children anyway and doesn't find a man to support her and never learned the concept that she should support herself - and the father of the daughters children is in jail and so the (grand)father is the main avenue of support. I've seen that happen.

[SammyBoy64]

25. so, can I understand this ?

From the book cover you judged this book?