I need a safe space to vent for a second

[VelmaD]

I am really tired of GD and some of the men therein. I'm sick of how every time we try to discuss gender issues or any topic on male behavior and they have to come in and thump their chests and holler about how it's not ALL men. MEMEME...look at me, I'm different, I'm a good guy, I'm a feminist (even though I call women names and insist that I know better than they do).

We apparently cannot have a discussion of male violence. We can't talk about the societal pressures that push men toward violence. We can't talk about how that violence impacts women. We can't even get close to talking about solutions. And all because we have to stroke delicate male egos. *sigh*

I'm tired. I'm tired of how some men NEVER want to take any responsibility for anything. Then again, we've been cleaning up their shit for millenia...why should I expect them to take any responsibility for anything at this late date.

I know...I'm ranting and rambling and if you haven't been in GD today it may not make much sense. Sorry. I'm done now. Thanks.

edited to add: If I hear one more man on DU whine about "male-bashing" posts I am going to completely lose it. I'll be sure to post the link when I do. I have a good rant working up from my guts on how we'll trade places with them...they can work for at best 74 cents on the dollar of what a man makes doing the same job. They can do all the shit work around the house for no money and no respect. They can have every aspect of their appearance nitpicked to death. They can have their sexuality used and abused to sell anything and everything. They can worry every day about being sexually assaulted. They can take the blame for original sin. They can have their half of humanity represented by less than 10 percent of the Congress. ARGH!!!!!

[bobbieinok]

1. yea verily

The same people hijack posts asking questions (so, okay, the questions may not always be the greatest, may be biased to some extent); the posts get hijacked to why do women DUers always bash men??????

[VelmaD]

3. Yeah, men on DU have it so hard...

why they can't even call us cunts or bitches without some uppity broad giving them lip. The man-bashing has just gotten completely out of control. *snort*

[Cerridwen]

2. Awwww, VelmaD, I knew just what you were going to say

before I even opened this thread.

I am right there with you.

:hug:

GD's gone beyond ugly...it's starting to look pathological. Same thing in some of the LBN threads about those poor babies in PA.

Some jerk yesterday (I've got his name branded in my brain) said that he was sure the incident from 20 years ago was something done to him by some evil little girls since we all know that little girls are so evil, even the Amish ones. It stayed up wallowing in filth and hatred of girls until today it became known that the evil little girls were the ones that rotten-child killer had molested 20 years ago. Now, of course, the sub-thread's been deleted. Guess the filth is only allowed to stink up the place so long as it's not so "obviously" filth. /mini-rant off

Anyone here ever watch the original Star Trek? There's an episode (I'm not enough of a geek to remember the title) in which they discover a planet on which only children are alive. When the children hit puberty, they die. There's a scene where the "children" gather 'round someone(?) and start hurling ridicule and invectives, ganging up on their victim. The response in GD and the LBN threads reminds me of that scene. The boys gather round, mobbing the posters, hurling names, insults and ridicule. Attempting to out-shout any voices not their own; drowning out any opinions, ideas and outrage that threatens them.

Yeah, as I type this; it's no longer just ugly, it's pathological.

And because I need it (me! me! me! me! me! me!), here's another

:hug:

[VelmaD]

4. oh good lord

You are a braver woman than I. I cannot fathom that there were people blaming little girls for what happened in Amish country yesterday. It is a world gone mad.

Don't feel like a geek...I actually know the name of that Star Trek episode. It's called "Miri". I'm such a geek. But you're right...sometime GD and even LBN look a lot like Miri mixed with Lord of the Flies.

:hug: right back at ya

[ThomCat]

5. As a guy, I agree with you entirely.

A lot of whiners complaining because they aren't being praised and patted on the back.

Sexism and Misogyny exist. We (men) benefit from it, and most men actively enable and encourage it. The very least we can do is endure some discomfort while we're discussing what to do about it. Personally, I think men need to be involved in that discussion. If they don't want to be helpful the least they can do is stop whining.

Just my $0.02.

[VelmaD]

6. thanks

You RAWK! :)

You may be the first man I've ever heard say that "most" men actively enable and encourage sexism. I am literally stunned.

[kalibex]

7. So many guys take observations of this culture's misogeny 'personally'...

...one would almost think they had a 'guilty conscience' on some level or something...

Nice to see someone avoiding that reaction.


-B

[ThomCat]

8. Credit the women's studies courses.

They were some of the best professors/classes I ever had. That led to volunteer work on feminist causes. It's hard to remain so ignorant after all of that.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

9. I am SO tempted to say

"If the shoe fits, wear it." :grr:

[VelmaD]

11. I'm confused

Are you mad at me? Or something from GD? *confused look*

[Lydia Leftcoast]

12. Sorry!

No, that comment was directed at the whiners who immediately start screaming "Man bashing!"

[VelmaD]

14. *whew*

There for a second I was afraid I had ticked off completely the wrong person.

[smirkymonkey]

10. I have f-ing had it with this place - Did you see the latest "Poll"?

"Can Women Rape Men in the same way a man can rape a woman"? 45 said yes. There are about 5 no's.

I am sick to my stomach - I actually think we would get a better response on a conservative website. I swear, it's like this site is completely populated with adolescent males, because I cannot believe the immaturity and whining that comes out on any thread where the topic of sexism or violence toward women is brought up.

You know, I really am beginning to wish I was a lesbian. Maybe I'll just be celibate from now on. I am so disgusted right now I could :puke:

[VelmaD]

13. I have that same thought...

about switching teams from time to time. I just keep reminding myself that I weed out the bad guys in my real life and I can't do that so much online.

What annoys me about that poll is not that people believe women can rape men...it is possible. What annoys me is that some people think we do it to men as often as they do it to us or to each other. I hate to break it to the guys but they are much more likely to be sexually assaulted by another man.

[smirkymonkey]

16. True - I wouldn't tolerate a man with such sentiments in my real

life. What is so frustrating is their absolute inability to not make it all about THEM personally - they can't even step outside the situation long enough to see it even somewhat objectively.

Anyone who thinks female on male rape is as serious a problem or as rampant as male on female rape is either insane or is just stirring up shit - and I am pretty sure it's the latter. I have a theory that there are a lot of loser guys on this board who have no success with women so when these types of posts come up they just lash out in frustration.

I suppose I should feel sorry for them instead of letting it affect me so much - I don't know why I let it make me so angry. What a bunch of sorry little boys they are.

I do know some very good men in real life, but I sometimes forget about them when I am bombarded by stupid, sexist bullshit on a stupid discussion board that is overrun by stupid, insecure little wimps.

[Marie26]

22. What worries me is

maybe this IS how most men really are. The Internet is anonymous, & they don't have to worry about "looking bad", hurting their reputation, or offending the women in their lives - so they can say what they really think. That's a little scary.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

15. I think it IS largely populated with adolescent males

or at least those who are psychologically still about 15.

Obviously they aren't terribly sexually experienced if they can say something like that.

[smirkymonkey]

17. Heh, heh.....

I was beginning to wonder if any of them had ever seen someone with their clothes off. :rofl:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

18. Well, after the continual instances of Lounge guys

asking, "Why do women always go for assholes and not a nice guy like me?" I have trouble picturing some of them as terribly sophisticated.

[BlueIris]

19. I've just...resigned myself to basically never meeting another man

I can even think about having a serious, meaningful relationship with. Do you know how long its been since I've met one who wasn't clinging to some very disturbing misogynist behaviors in some very obvious ways? Going on seven years now. (And I've lived almost exclusively in "highly educated" communities.) ACK. Every time I read a post like yours, because it so perfectly captures not just the hypocritical, dishonest misogyny of the men in our General Discussion forum, but the climate I have been living in within this society as long as I've been alive--I become more resigned to a life that is essentially man-free and therefore safe (and sane, and self-respecting).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. I never say "never," but it is discouraging, isn't it?

I look at the middle-aged single men who are out there, and I see men who are still in the 1950s emotionally and mentally, and who think I ought to be impressed with them because they have a house, a car, and a boat. They get a disgusted look on their face when they hear what I do for a living (Japanese-English translator) or what I like to do in my spare time (read, explore the city, attend performing arts events). They whine about how women don't like "nice guys" like them, but frankly, they have NOTHING to offer except lack of abuse, and I'm already not being abused. Why should I disrupt my life for the sake of someone who has never had a thought that the mass media didn't put there?

I don't need to be supported financially, although another income always helps, of course, and I'm past having children, so what I'm looking for is someone to share my life with on all levels. But the men seem to be mostly looking for a housekeeper with benefits, or, if they're significantly older, a potential nursemaid. The ones who really annoy me are the 50-year-olds who have suddenly decided that they want children after all, so they won't even look at anyone over 35.

Sometimes I mind this terribly, and other times I don't. This is one of those weeks when I do.

[Chovexani]

20. Not to mention the homophobes

But then again, sexism and homophobia go hand in hand.

Lordy I've had it with DU. I need another break.

[Marie26]

21. Aaaarrrggghhhh!

I'm glad you posted this thread so I can vent as well. GD is a cesspool, and has been for a while. It's not just the rape apologists, or pedophile apologists, or the blatant misogyny, there's even CHILD KILLING apologists lately. I heard one more man while about "male-bashing" and did lose it. I've got to admit that you're right, there is no way to have a real discussion of women's issues on DU, outside this forum, and that sucks. Why are some men so threatened by any discussion of sexism or patriarchy? Why can't there be ONE THREAD w/o trolls starting flames & insults? I know it's just a bunch of losers, probably, but it does get under my skin. And I don't know the solution either. :banghead: I'm very close to leaving this board. Why bother?

[lukasahero]

23. What I find most astonishing

is the willingness of women to thoughtfully consider the (inaccurate) post "Why do women kill their children more often"? First, as has been noted in that thread, the claim is untrue. Factually more men are responsible for commiting infanticide that women. Perceptually, women who do so make headlines FAR more often than men who do.

But more noticeable is the lack of the knee-jerk reaction of women to discuss this as a serious question, which it is, even if it was posted as flamebait. (Poor little poster, we totally missed the point about how women would never stand for this kind of "accusation", didn't we?)

I know this question, were it to be asked in GD would be met with the same reactionary vitriol as all the others, but seriously, what is it with these guys who just can't answer the freakin' question without feeling personally accused? I have never killed my children so when asked that question, I don't feel the need to lash out against the very idea of the question being asked. I am perfectly capable of considering the validity of the question and using my experience as a woman to try and contemplate what could possibly drive a woman to do so. Why is that so hard for men? (Do I really need the requisite "some" disclaimer or are we all grown ups here?)

ThomCat, I'd love for you to weigh in on this. Why do they always feel accused? I tried pointing out yesterday that we were actually asking the men who don't do these things for help, for any insight they could offer and I was almost tarred and feathered for it. Only one person responded positively to my question - the rest just attacked me for the very idea that men might actually have some insight into why other men behave in such a way. What is up with that?

[ThomCat]

24. Weighing in.

I think I could write a small book about this. But where to start?

Identification
We are so heavily socialized to identify As Men that it is a constant undercurrent running through everything we think and do. Men do this, men act this way, men believe this, men don't do that, men treat other men this way, men treat women that way, men want this, men don't want that. Maleness, and an awareness of maleness, is so heavily programmed into everything that it is a reflex action to identify with men vs women.

If you had a discussion that isolated the issue of just fathers who kill, with no mention of mothers, and no comparison to mothers, then I think you might get different responses. You aren't triggering the overall male identification that way. A more competative identificatin might predominate, of these men versus those men, us versus them. But once you mention women it's a reflex for most guys to turn it into a men versus women issue.

My team
Beyond just identifying as men, guys seem to identify much more with teams than with individuals. We are raised to have a lot more visible devotion to the Yankees than to our friends. We know which side we are on, which team we support, which colors we wear, etc. Often we know our friends primarily because they support the same teams. A lot of guy friends don't go beyond supporting the same teams. Even if I have nothing personally to do with the team (I'm certainly never going to play with the Yankees) they are my team, and if you attack anyone on that team you are attacking me.

So that trained habit of identify with the team, not with the individual, comes into play. This is related to, and reinforces that concept of being socializes as a man. "Men" becomes a very large team, and "Women" are the opposing team.

Acceptance of Violence
Part of being culturally a guy is acceptance of violence and the potential for violence. Being ready to do violence, being able to do violence, talking about violence, glorifying violence, transforming violence into sports competition, etc. Violence in one form or another in inherent in the socialization of being a male. It's hard to go a day without seeing and participating in some reference to personal violence. So the idea of accusing men of being violent is a touchy one.

On the one hand, we can't deny that men are violent because that potential is so important to being a guy. One the other hand, that violence is always supposed to be channeled towards protecting "us" and stopping "them." The idea that men are channeling their violence towards "us" instead of "them" is deeply disturbing. If some men can do it, then couldn't all men be guilty of this? The idea challenges the supposedly justified understanding of violence that we've enthroned in our culture.

Pettiness
In the end I think a lot of people are just petty and judgemental. They would rather have a simple answer than think about something uncomfortable. If you have someone who wants a quick, simple, comforting answer and that person is already steeped in the ideas I mentioned above, you are going to get a knee-jerk reaction bashing women (the other team) for making an attack against some guys (members of my team).

This is just off the top of my head so I hope haven't babbled too repetatively, and I hope this makes as much sense as I think it does. :)

[lukasahero]

26. Thank you so much for taking the time to answer this question for me

I will give it some thought because I'm finding some contradictions in it that I want to process on my own first. The "contradictions" aren't about your post but rather some of the ideas presented in it vs. the socio/psychological philosophies that I've come to understand regarding gender...

For example, the idea of "identifying with the team" seems strange to me based on the popular belief that women are the more cooperative gender - more interested in team building than men who are more interested in individual acheivement. Don't rip my choice of words apart here, like I said, I haven't processed it fully yet. Perhaps it's a difference of "building" teams as opposed to "being part" of one. I'll give that more thought.

Your thoughts on the acceptance of violence strike a nerve though. You are definitely on to something there (something we women often "joke" about as "methinks thou dost protest too much" which might not be as far off the mark as we (women) really want to believe it is.) Again, I'll have to process it to respond more articulately.

Thanks for the time you took to write this. It is truly appreciated and it has (obviously) given me much to consider. Peace.

[ThomCat]

27. I'm certainly not debating

so I won't comment on any choice of words. :)

If I posted that same post in GD I'm sure most of the guys there would rip me to shreds and insist that I have no idea what I'm talking about. So I'm definitely not speaking from any possition of expertise or authority. It's just my perception.

This would be a very interesting conversation to continue. I hope other people are interested in jumping in.

[The empressof all]

28. Locking

I know gender war threads are extremely frustrating aren't they? However the best way to deal with Sexism here is to alert the offending posts. We try to address concerns as soon as possible.