Have you ever deliberately "acted like a man" to get ahead?

[marions ghost]

This is a question for women in male-dominated professions or jobs of any kind:

In what way and did it work?
Did you get more respect, or did it cause problems?
Do women in general have to do this in our society to get ahead?
Do women have to be even MORE aggressive than men if they compete with them in business or other male-dominated professions?

[Finder]

1. YES...

however, depends what you mean by "act like a man." I don't think we need to be more aggressive just competitive. I try to leave my gender out of the conversation.

To be totally honest, I have had more problems with females than males in business--one on one.

I believe some women take the charge to be competitive and apply it to other women rather than males and females equally.

On the other hand...I use the fact I am a woman to get ahead when need be.

[beam me up scottie]

2. NO!

I hold myself to a higher standard.
I need to know that my goals have been achieved by hard work, diligence and fairness.
The old "But they do it" excuse doesn't work for me.
Apparently it does for others.

[Finder]

4. Is it a question of standards?

I imagine it depends on the field/position we are discussing but why should gender have anything to do with most business?

I don't advertise my businesses as "women owned businesses" out of choice but...if a bid comes my way that urges women owned businesses to apply, I will take advantage.

[beam me up scottie]

6. It is for me.

For others, I guess it would depend on what they consider to be acceptable behaviour.

[Warpy]

3. When I did lighting in the 60s

I found out I had to outcuss the males on the crew to get anything done.
Since I had learned from a master (my dad), it wasn't difficult.

I once made a longshoreman blush.

[Hello_Kitty]

5. I have in the sense that

Characteristics such as assertiveness and directness are considered masculine. In a male dominated industry such as mine I find that it's necessary to adopt some behaviors that were alien to me given that I was socialized to adopt a more passive "feminine" persona.

It works well enough to keep me afloat, but I wouldn't say that I've been able to get ahead since I still have to convince a lot of guys that I even belong there at all.

I'm sure being blunt and assertive causes me problems. I would say they are different from the problems I'd experience were I more "feminine" in my dealings with my male co-workers. I know I need to adopt a tough stance to avoid sexual harassment. Unfortunately, there are always a few idiots who perceive any sort of friendliness as a romantic overture on my part. As a result, I get the reputation of being cold and stand-offish, which leads to me being excluded from the old-boys club that we all know is the real source of advancement in most organizations.

The few women I've seen ascend to management where I work are dogged by rumor and innuendo about sexual favors they supposedly bestowed upon senior managers. That's disturbing. It either means that you will never be given credit for your accomplishments because lies will be spread about how you acheived them. Or, even worse, some of the rumors are true and that's what's expected of females to get ahead. Either way, it sucks.

[beam me up scottie]

7. Good point about

women's ascension to management.
Unfortunately, many women are just as guilty of doing this as men.
I find it more revolting when I see that type of misogyny being practiced by women.

[Finder]

8. That pisses me off the most..n/t

[beam me up scottie]

9. I saw it all the time

when I was in the Marines.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. Same thing when I was in the Navy

Nasty rumors were spread about most women, but the venom was really focused on women in positions of rank, officer or enlisted, or those perceived as uppity. I had several spread about me, the most colorful one being that I had prostituted myself at a previous command. That one went around the base where I was stationed for quite a while until someone FINALLY brought it to my attention. The only thing I could do was threaten the main instigator of the rumor (a female BTW) with disciplinary action to stop her but by then the damage had been done.

After I got out of the Navy and started working for my current employer, on of my married co-workers propositioned me. I turned him down, but that didn't deter him in any way from telling everyone who'd listen how he'd succeeded with me. He made up graphic stories of sex acts I'd supposedly performed on him in the parking lot where we worked!. This went on for MONTHS until someone told me what was being said. Interestingly, when I asked this person why he'd waited so long to tell me, he said it was out of "respect" for me. Okaaaaay....But you have no problem accepting unchallenged an ugly allegation about me. When I inquired with HR about how to take action against him, they told me I had to get people he told to sign affadavits. Yeah right, his buddies are going to do that.

An odd twist on this: Not surprisingly, he did this to other women at work. Eventually, it got to the point where even his cronies realized he was full of shit. Apparently, though, his wife would get wind of the rumors and believe them. She'd harass some of the women by phone and even threw a drink on a woman at the office holiday party! I talked to this particular woman and she told me the attack occured after she insisted that there was no way in hell she'd sleep with the guy. It was like the wife would rather believe that her husband was having affairs than to acknowledge the truth that he was a loser and a pathological liar. Gawd, it must suck to be her!

[beam me up scottie]

11. I can't even imagine what her

view of the world is.
Think she was a reptilican?

[Eloriel]

20. Internalized oppression

is the culprit:

that type of misogyny being practiced by women.

Doesn't excuse it, but does help explain it. Attitudes, beliefs, behaviors that they have been acculturated into. Some of them are so deeply buried (speaking from my own experience here) they are difficult to identify, let alone root out.

It remains obvious tho just how much work we have to do yet.

[marions ghost]

12. personally I have found it so difficult

to work in male-dominated professions or around sexist people of either gender that I have gravitated toward independent kinds of work. Most everybody in my family is self-employed or a small business owner, and have similar issues with not being aggressive enough to want to compete otherwise despite their qualifications. This works for me but I often wonder how it is for those who really are out there in the male-dominated trenches. I think this situation affects our world in general, and many people's quality of life. I'd like to see more egalitarian values in the workplace. Have no idea how to get there. I just know there's a BIG problem.

[Solly Mack]

13. No.

All my traits have to be me acting like a woman because I am a woman. And I'm very aggressive and very confrontational and very assertive.

This is not to say the double standard was absent. The double standard is always present.

It's not a case of me acting like a man...it's other people thinking I'm not acting like a woman - or more to the point, how they think a woman should act...(whatever that means)

I see it as just one more way to "put women in their place" (you're acting like a man!) So there must be something wrong with me as a woman...since I don't know how I am supposed to act.

[Senior citizen]

14. Precisely.

Acting means pretending to be something you're not. If people want you to act, first they have to get you into the Actor's Guild and then pay you union scale. Otherwise they have no business telling you how to act.

[Hello_Kitty]

15. I love that!

"If you want me to act then pay my dues to the Actor's Guild and pay me union scale!"

[Senior citizen]

19. Even then, don't forget that you can accept or reject any role.

Some actors feel it important not to be type-cast.

[marions ghost]

16. You're lucky

that your natural traits fit with the approved male paradigm in the workplace. Do you think you were always that way, or did you develop this in response to working in a male-dominated field? Did you have a strong male role model who encouraged you at an early age--or a female role model you could relate to? Did you have brothers who gave you a trial by fire?

Good point about reframing the issue--ie. 'acting like a man' is really a way of expressing disapproval for a woman not acting like a woman is SUPPOSED to act. Glad you are strong enough to have found success and not lost your sense of self.

But what about those who are more conflicted? For example, for people like me who are not particularly aggressive or assertive, and tend to get trampled in these situations, what would you advise? Maybe classes in this for young women, or seminars given by women like you? That would be assuming there's no way to crank the competition factor DOWN a notch, which doesn't seem to be happening (maybe it is in some places, but as jobs and opportunities may become more scarce, the situation may get even worse).

[Solly Mack]

17. Answers

Do you think you were always that way?

Yes. Always that way.

or did you develop this in response to working in a male-dominated field?

I always bucked the male paradigm. (which is just another way of saying male established rules that benefit men, without regard to women.) Not work performance rules so much, though certainly those were tainted by sexism , but rules (accepted societal norms and mores) that resulted in a sexist environment. The "boys will be boys" attitude found in fields that were at one time dominated by men.See, if an attitude or environment was caused by sexism, then the paradigm is false to my thinking. Men claim women changed the rules. That's bull. Women didn't change the rules, the rules were always the same...women just started making men follow the rules. "Backlash" is nothing more than the spoiled child who is no longer getting their way.

If someone said "You have balls", I always replied that I don't need balls, I am a woman.

Did you have a strong male role model who encouraged you at an early age?

No. I was raised in a world of matriarchs. My mother was Tsa La Gi(Cherokee), and we still maintained the woman as head of family tradition. Men were never treated as second, however. We were taught to honor and respect our fathers...allowing for the fact that any family dynamic is complex, so there existed many shades of gray.

or a female role model you could relate to?

Most definitely. Strong women in my family.

Brother?

A single brother who had 3 sisters who never took any shit off of him.

Besides,I never looked to a man as a role model. I am female...a man can't teach me to be a woman. Nor would I be receptive to the man that tried. I did,however, have the greatest respect for my grandfather.

None of this means I didn't struggle with sexism in the work place, as well as the double standard. I just fought against it at every turn. I would rather lose a job than yield to sexism...and have. This doesn't make me special or unique or strong...this makes me incredibly stupid in a lot of ways. I won't play the game...there are penalties for not playing the game. Steep ones. Painful ones. I've paid that price, and not without internal conflict.


Women tend to ask nicely for things to get done....not because we aren't serious about getting a task completed, but because we see no reason to ask rudely. Men will be rude about it. As a consequence, a lot of times a male subordinate will blow us off...thinking it must not be urgent or we would have "told" them to "do it!" I still ask nicely. Because there is no reason to be rude. However, I have told men I have worked with that my asking is never a suggestion - it is a demand.

I think in order to change the false paradigm established by the good old boy network, and fact is, ALL male established work environments become a good old boy network, women don't need to change themselves, they need to work on changing the accepted thinking, without compromising who they are...(not an easy task and it's a constant struggle)

What we can do to help girls? (and boys)

Parents still raise boys and girls differently. Oh, I know liberals who would deny that, but then they turn around and say something that proves otherwise. Different curfew times tells a girl that she isn't able to handle herself and that she needs protection. You're not going to get an assertive daughter by sending her these messages. Besides, it blames the girl for the crimes of the sicko. Just as blaming manner of dress does.

The toys parents buy children says a lot about how they see the sexes.
Those afraid to allow boys to play with dolls...those that push dolls on their daughters when the daughter would rather play with cars...are setting up a lifetime of gender stereotyping that will affect self-confidence and how assertive a person will be...

If we pigeon-hole children, they'll grow up to be adults that buy into the gender stereotyping of what defines mans work/womans work. When either is capable of doing any job. A girl that wants to play with cars and tool belts will feel out of sorts because her desires don't meet her parents expectations. Same with boys. A child that grows up thinking something must be wrong with them will not be self-confident...they will not assert themselves to gain and meet their needs. They might become bullies....but that's low self-esteem and a negative expression of being assertive.


Being assertive comes down to self confidence, in my opinion. If you trust and believe in yourself, if you accept that you have something worthwhile to say and do,you seem assertive-but it's really just self-confidence. Men (some) have a different idea of what assertive means...and they have the wrong idea. Again, that false paradigm coming into play.

Men and women have different styles, it is fair to say...but men tend to think their style is the only way....whch is why they are wrong and one of the reasons the paradigm is false...

Young girls and women do benefit from classes in understanding their own style of being assertive. That it isn't wrong or bad...that it is effective. Men benefit from the same classes because they learn their way isn't the only way.

But that's just one aspect of the "competition" (assertive/aggressive) factor. Other stereotypes come into play, and they compound the problem.

"Crying is weak"
"Women don't think logically"
"Women can't do math"
"Women aren't good in science"
"Did you see the size of her breasts?"
"Calm down"
"Don't be hysterical"
"Look At her ass"
"Don't get emotional"
" Be reasonable"
"Did you hear the one about the blond that..."



Women are fighting ALL of that at the SAME time.

good gracious, I'm rambling.. :)

Not changing anything though...maybe I'll formulate a concise thought once the rambling runs it's course. lol

[Hello_Kitty]

21. The rambling was great

The part about discouraging a girl who'd rather have a toolbelt (or a boy who'd rather play with dolls for that matter) is so true. We're constantly running up against the "but...but....girls and boys naturally gravitate to certain things....you can't argue with NATURE!" OK, so what? What if kids were allowed to be who they are without the rigid socialization and most of them did adopt stereotypical gender traits? Fine and dandy. There would be plenty who didn't and they wouldn't have to deal with being shamed for not being "normal".

[marions ghost]

22. It's interesting to me

that you were more influenced by strong women role models than by male role models. And that you were raised in what seems like a more egalitarian situation.

"I was raised in a world of matriarchs. My mother was Tsa La Gi(Cherokee), and we still maintained the woman as head of family tradition. Men were never treated as second, however. We were taught to honor and respect our fathers...allowing for the fact that any family dynamic is complex, so there existed many shades of gray."

[Solly Mack]

23. From time to time, I have encountered situations that have caused

me to curse the way I was raised.

My family dynamic wasn't exactly compatible to the world I lived in...

but I wouldn't have it any other way.

[noamnety]

18. Yes

Things I've deliberately altered were generally small mannerisms, but sometimes refusing to do "women's work" was part of my game (and still is).

When I was the only female in my reserves unit, one of the first things I did was switch to drinking strong black coffee instead of having it with milk and sugar (which I much prefer). It's a small thing, but part of the perception of being tough/manly.

I learned to curse - I had one of the most impressive gutter mouths. If I didn't, I'd have the guys treating me "like a lady" and then being relieved when I left, so they could have locker room discussions afterwards. I'm sure they still toned it down a bit for me, but being perceived as one of the guys was important - even though it meant biting my tongue while Howard Stern was on the radio, or when the entire unit went to have drinks at a bar where a wet tee shirt contest was going on.

I also made a point of never taking a personal day because of snowy roads - even when my car spun out on the long commute - because I didn't want to fall into that stereotype. A guy can call in because the roads aren't safe in his area, and nobody thinks twice about it. If a woman calls in, it's because she's "afraid to drive in the snow." I also bought a stick shift for the same reason - just a matter of perception.

"Women's work" that I always refuse is along the lines of planning office parties. I don't know why women always are expected to call and make reservations at a restaurant, why they are expected to do table decorations, etc. I can honestly say that for the years I was the only woman there, I NEVER did that, nor did I do it at any later jobs. When that stuff gets raised, I just say I suck at that sort of thing, and make it clear that as far as I'm concerned, I'd be just as happy to bring my own lunch or order a pizza and eat in the conference room - I make a point of somewhat sneering at the idea of decorations.

The reason is that (along with honestly not giving a crap about decorations) I don't want to be bogged down doing trivial nonsense while the menfolk are planning budgets and briefings. I'd much rather do a bit of macho swaggering then fall into that trap. And careerwise, it did serve me well - I got promoted at a fast rate.

I choked down a lot of bad coffee along the way, though.

[geniph]

24. Some people would say that I do, every day

I'm in high tech, and at a very senior level. In the course of my regular work, it's necessary for me to do a lot of things some people would perceive as "unfeminine" - I use tools, I disassemble and assemble servers and components, I move heavy equipment around, I supervise males who work under my direction, etc. Oh, and I have a horribly foul mouth - I've been known to blister paint at 40 yards. Are those things "acting like a man"? Not to me, they're not - to me, since I'm a woman and I'm doing them, obviously that's acting like a woman. One woman. Me.

If the question had been phrased "acting butch," yep, that I'll cop to. I act butch all the time. Every day. If I acted in a more stereotypically femme manner, I can guarantee I wouldn't be at the level I'm at in my profession.