OK...I need this safe space for a bit

[VelmaD]

I've been in GD in one of the threads about the 15 year old Iraqi girld who was raped and her family murdered. And I need to vent for a minute. I'm very tired of knowing that as an adult woman I mean so much less than a child. If I am raped it's not such a big deal. And that instead of fixing the big problem where women aren't considered worth much...some DUers think it's ok to play into the mentality that it's a bigger deal if a child is raped...and then to refer to a 15 year old as a child to help whip up a frenzy.

I'm beyond furious that our soldiers are raping and killing people in Iraq. And this particularly story is egregious in the extreme. And I understand people's frustration that the media referred to her as a "woman" when she is obviously not an adult yet. But she's not a "child" either and I object just as strongly to refering to her as such with the sole purpose of inciting an emotional reaction.

I'm probably not expressingly myself as well as I would like to and I'm sure someone will show up in here and yell at me some more. But I was hoping this forum would be the one place I could come and say goddammit...I do NOT count for less just because I'm over 18. Raping me is a BIG deal. Raping grown women is a BIG deal. And it sucks on ice that too damn many people don't give a shit.

And when you boil it right down I don't honestly believe they give a shit about raped little girls either. If they did, they'd do something to help stop it instead of sitting on their assess salivating over yet another Dateline special.

[kitkatrose]

1. I'm sorry, I hid those as soon as I saw them

because I KNOW that for one reason or another, they're going to piss me off.

And when you boil it right down I don't honestly believe they give a shit about raped little girls either. If they did, they'd do something to help stop it instead of sitting on their assess salivating over yet another Dateline special.

To give them some credit, they may not know what they can do about it; I know that I usually don't. To be fair, I don't go into GD oftne because it's a lot of the same people ranting incoherently about something or other--there's no deep discussion of anything and for the threads that do have insight, they either sink, or get disrupted.

[bliss_eternal]

2. You're expressing yourself quite well...

...no need to apologize. Glad you came here to feel safe. :hi: Always happy to see you around! Just sorry that they pissed you off and made you feel badly.

It is safe here, and you're always welcome to come here to vent. Don't let them get you down. My visits to GD are rare these days. When I do stick my head in, it's usually to alert on something or hide an objhow ectionable thread. I've detached from this board a lot in recent months. I'm just glad to have a few forums like this one where I CAN have conversations I enjoy and can learn from.

The only thing I learn these days in the main forums, is how many assholes can congregate in one place.

[bloom]

3. I noticed some of that.

Like the argument over whether the perpetrators were pedophiles or not. I didn't post.


I think that what bugs me about the people who insist that it wasn't pedophilia (I don't care whether it is labeled that or not, myself) - is the attitude that seems to be behind that - the arguments that have been made - by grown men who want to have sex with 14, 15, 16 year olds - and they don't think that anyone should have a problem with that.

And so they definitely don't want anyone saying that it is pedophilia - even though it would be called child pornography if there were a movie made of it. Or would it be called something else for those ages? Underage porn?

[bloom]

4. Ok that was a different thread

I saw one that you were talking about.

Yes - there is definitely a "protect the children" sort of attitude going on there.


I guess if I were honest - then the younger a person was - the more traumatic I think rape would be. And in that case - it sounds like the girl was targeted because of her young teenageness.


For us women who are older than that - and the older we get - the nicer it would be to be in a culture that respects older people (esp. women) instead of the opposite.

[smirkymonkey]

5. Those threads are pissing me off too. For a few reasons....

First, the entire family was murdered, including a 7 year old girl. But because of what I believe to be prurient interest(even though I think rape is just as bad if not worse than murder) people are focused on the sex crime. As if the murder of an entire family of civilians didn't take place.

Secondly, the implication that the rape of the female in question is somehow much worse if it turns out that she was actually 5 years younger than actually reported. I believe the rape of a child is particularly heinous, but I resent the implication that it somehow matters in the overall picture of this very sick crime that it would not have mattered AS MUCH if she were in her twenties. She's dead. Her 7 year old sister is dead. Her parents are dead. All killed by some sick, psychopathic fuck who should be put away for life.

I also don't believe that the interest is so much about "the chiillllldren"(like you said, if they really CARED about children, they would do something about the their plight) as is it about what I believe to be the Judeo-Christian notion that females (usually the younger ones) who are virginal or at least less sexually experienced are somehow more valuable than older, more sexual women. I know that is an extremely negative viewpoint of human nature, but personally I am bordering more and more on misanthropy these days than ever.

[MuseRider]

6. Hi Velma.

I miss seeing you around. I always look forward to seeing you. I did not post in that thread.

"And when you boil it right down I don't honestly believe they give a shit about raped little girls either. If they did, they'd do something to help stop it instead of sitting on their assess salivating over yet another Dateline special."

That is exactly correct. It is just one more thing on their list of "Why They Keep Us Around". Cook, clean, etc. and sex whenever, however with whoever they want. They don't care about rape because they don't see anything wrong with it, not really.

Yes, I am pretty upset right now too and I am not going to qualify it with the usual demands made by the men. When it comes right down to it I have met very few men who, if given the chance, would not act exactly like all those in GD do. They might stop short of rape but really, they have no respect for women.

[BlueIris]

7. Man I'm glad I elected not to open any of the threads on that war crime.

The Lounge was bad enough for me today; God knows what would have happened if I'd gone to GD first.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

8. You are right

It IS just as big a deal. And it also doesn't matter what you were wearing/doing/drinking at the time! Y

ou're also right that there is a gigantic disconnect when it comes to anything that happens to a female, be she child or adult. I've gotten to the point where I get nowhere discussing rape with guys unless I can somehow relate it to male-on-male rape. That's hard to do with the so-called date or spousal rape. I swear, I about beat my head against the wall one night trying to convince a co-worker of mine that being out on a date with or married to a man did not entitle him to unfettered sexual access to a woman. And then some guys are just incapable of empathizing with a female. Even sadder, there are also some women who are so male-identified that they can't either.

[bliss_eternal]

9. Those are the ones that disturb me the most...

the male identified females. There's a staggering amount on DU and I was taken aback the first few times I encountered them on sex assault and rape threads.

Which isn't to say that the male perspective isn't disturbing or distressing, it is. I just expect more from women, by the virtue of the fact that I thought we are the same. Apparently we aren't. Some women are lacking in compassion, empathy and the ability to see beyond the conditioning that exists in our society.

Maybe someday their eyes will be opened to the truth. But forgive me if I don't hold my breath waiting. :eyes:

[BlueIris]

11. Excellent point about the women who seem to have totally male-identified.

So much so that it has alienated them from their own sense of self, even. Ugh.

[raccoon]

12. THere are a lot of people that believe this shit,

"I about beat my head against the wall one night trying to convince a co-worker of mine that being out on a date with or married to a man did not entitle him to unfettered sexual access to a woman. "

And a lot who think a date is like a contest (or should I say, a game?). If they have sex, the man wins and the woman loses, if they don't have sex, the women wins and the man loses.
All I can say to that is :puke:

[ismnotwasm]

10. I just went off on some thread

I'm working a lot and probably missed most of those threads.

My new mantra is going to be Rape is NEVER ok and it NEEDS to be STOPPED.

I'm sick of the violence vs sex debates, age debates, or any other rape debate.

I don't even consider then debatable any more. They never really were.

Rape is NEVER ok and NEEDS to be STOPPED. Once and for all, permanently. There should be no debate. We shouldn't have to defend ourselves against rape, the concept of rape, or any of the parasitic quasi-pornographic ideas of what rape is or who gets raped.

Simplistic? Yes, I know and it won't go anywhere. I don't care.

What a load of bullshit attitudes that topic brings out. Every single time.
Women having to defend their "value" as potential rape victims. Sweet Jesus, that's messed up. (Don't take that wrong please! That seems to have been what the argument was manipulated into, I didn't see it and I'm sorry you went had to go through it)

[Solly Mack]

13. It's not simplistic at all. I have been enjoying your comments greatly!

And you're right... the "age matters" crap (along with the other crap) manipulates the discussion into a defense of our value as adult survivors of rape/potential victims.

[noamnety]

14. Interesting comment on another blog

"Because it occurred to me this morning, and I’m sure this is no original bit of insight, that rape under patriarchy would probably never have been considered a crime were it not for the fundamental tenet that women’s bodies are men’s *property*. Rape is a violation not so much of the woman’s sovereignty over her own body, but of men’s property rights.

According to patriarchy, a daughter is her father’s property until marriage, until which point her body and sexuality are under his control and “protection”; the “deed” to the “virgin territory” of the daughter is then transferred to the husband. Any assault upon the daughter / bride is considered an affront to the concept of property and male entitlement, not to the woman herself.

Notice how rape of women outside the daughter / wife paradigm is met with less disapproval, e.g. the Duke rape case. Women who establish identities outside the protection racket of males are often seen as “asking for it.”

from http://stangoff.com/?p=323