How have we limited our own horizons due to this culture?

[kalibex]

For me, that's the $10,000 question. That's what gives me bad dreams at night.

Not worries about standing up to obvious sexism and the backlash that can ensue...

...but that I may hold myself back because of how this culture - what we were explicitly and implicitly taught - has subtly and subconsciously trained us to not carry out actions which challenge/inconvenience/compete with the men (family, friends, colleagues, neighbors) in our lives.

That we're backing off many times, but never consciously noticing.

Or if we do...stuffing and denying it.

That if men we encounter in our lives aren't lashing out at us (in obvious ways)....

...that might just be because we already control ourselves (as well as because IMO this culture doesn't do squat to ensure proper EQ development, but that's another whole can of worms for another time/forum).

(That Cynical enough for you? :tinfoilhat: )

-B

[LisaLynne]

1. Plenty o' cynical and I'm right there with you! :)

This is a very disconcerting thing to think about. How have our own thoughts, even subconscious ones, been tainted, structured according to the sexist elements in our society? I remember that years after leaving the religion of my childhood I would find myself slipping back into thought patterns from it or realizing that I held a certain opinion based on this philosophy I do longer felt had any value and didn't believe. But, it was a struggle -- a conscious struggle -- to get that thinking out of my head.

So, what about this stuff that we may or may not even be aware of? I was sitting in on a women's studies class recently and women were sharing their stories and it was very interesting how many of them pointed to the things their mothers had told them that had limited them in some way -- be nice, don't do that, women don't do that, etc. And some of them started to remark about how women often indoctrinate other women, even their daughters, into this sexist culture. So, in that way, yeah, the men don't have to do the controlling by themselves.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

2. Well, it turns out that's the case with race

That people unconsciously succomb to the stereotypes even if they believe they are above them. I wouldnt be surprised if it was true for sex.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Massive amounts of time spent worrying about my appearance

Honestly, if I could get back every minute I wasted fretting about the circumference of my waist or thighs, I'd could have used it to get a PhD in something. Think about it. How many times do we suck our stomachs in? How often have we avoided going somewhere or doing something because we "felt fat"? How many times do we not speak up because we know we're going to be judged by whether we're pretty or not?

I don't think it's an accident at all that this happens. Naomi Wolf was right about it in The Beauty Myth Keeping us obsessed with our looks keeps us from agitating for political and social change. Plus they can always say shut up you fat/ugly/old woman. Unfortunately, that silences too many of us.

[Finder]

4. Self-Esteem

Who is they? It seems women can be their own worst enemy when it comes right down to it. It freaks me out how many young women are bulemic or anorexic in this day and age. I think the thread on Jamie Lee Curtis is a good start. Female role models need to be "Real", not fashion models or actresses who spend hours in make up to become perfect.

[marions ghost]

5. it's a constant battle

--you bring up a good point kalibex

I am now very aware of the ways I conform or comply just to avoid issues with sexist people in our society. For me this happens more in the outer world than personal relationships. So I have a weird schizy thing where I feel like one person around friends and family and another when confronting the outside world--almost like I have to put on body armor or a turtleshell. I know this has prevented me from doing things I otherwise would have done.

What should this culture do to provide proper EQ development? --what do you mean by this? Maybe start another thread to explain your ideas? There would be interest....

[libodem]

6. I'm sure we are molded by our culture

I understand that is why traveling to other countries is so enlightening. You are able separate humanity from customs and norms.

[Finder]

7. The US is so diverse...

as far as culture. I mean women in the south are treated differently than women in the north or on the west coast. Equality should be a no-brainer but...when a large population of women are happy to submit and fight equality...

Know what I mean?

[Eloriel]

8. It's called "internalized oppression"

And SemiCharmed explained it fairly well in just one sentence:

Well, it turns out that's the case with race
That people unconsciously succomb to the stereotypes even if they believe they are above them. I wouldnt be surprised if it was true for sex.

It's true, AFAIK, for all oppressed peoples. Think of the self-hating gays (the mayor of Spokane, for example, Jeff Gannon for another) who are in the GOP and who are therefore actively working against themselves; think of self-hating African Americans like Clarence Thomas; think of women who don't leave their abusers due to "learned helplessness" (they end up believing they are worthless and not able to make it on their own and will never be loved by anyone else, etc.), or spokeswomen like Anne Coulter and Phyllis Schlaffly.

It is such a blessing when you are able to identify and work through bits and pieces of whatever leftover misogyny lurks in your head, but it's damned difficult to get ahold of most of them.

I KNOW I've got lots of internalized beliefs that have held me back all these years. I can feel it. But the only one I can identify (and it hasn't yielded to conscious intellectual arguments to myself so far) is that I have trouble imagining a woman President, any woman strong enough to fulfill that role. Doesn't help that I don't know of any I consider strong enough for that -- OR is that inability a symptom of my problem? (And please, don't bring up Hillary -- she might actually be "strong" enough, but I can't stand her pandering, DLC-style politics. I can't stand her -- and I tried for the entire duration of the Clinton administration, finally giving up after 8+ years.)

[Finder]

9. Oh my...a woman strong enough?

Not to mention strength(physical) is a male term for leadership--there are many strong women who would make a fine president.

I will not say anything more--thank goodness for the backspace key.

[Eloriel]

10. Yeah, FInder

Is it really appropriate to diss me for my secret admission? I wouldn't have expected that here. Your responses to my posts have been interesting. Worth watching any further developments in that, I think.

Not to mention strength(physical) is a male term for leadership

I've been hearing feminist women talk about strong women for as long as I've been a feminist -- slightly more than 3 decades now -- and never considered it related to physical strength (except in those instances when it most clearly was, considering the context). Sorry you find it objectionable. I find strong women both beautiful in reality, and beautiful and inspiring to think and talk about. I am a strong woman, born of a strong woman, and she of a strong woman before her. I am proud of my matrilineal heritage of "strong women" and always have been.