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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 10:22 AM
Original message
I come looking for solidarity, perhaps naively
I see from a quick glance here that my concerns are not original (not that I was unaware of that, of course!), but that expressing and discussing them may be a delicate exercise. Oh well, here goes.


I've been gobsmacked and horrified and sickened by some responses here at DU to reports of criminal victimization, and especially the sexual victimization of women and children, among victims of the hurricane and flood. I see that the question has been asked in this forum of how women might have been especially affected by this tragedy/atrocity, and this may provide some insight.

I can't cite specifics of what I'm talking about that has been said at DU, as that would be "calling out", and I don't want to invite all and sundry over here to duke it out. I'm not looking for argument, I'm looking to share understanding and concerns. I actually abandoned arguing with, let alone "debating", people who don't share my concerns in these respects about 30 years ago.

Essentially, I cannot believe that anyone would deny that women were criminally sexually victimized in those situations -- women trapped and isolated by the flood, women trapped and exposed to danger by circumstances at supposed places of safety.

Women are criminally sexually victimized on good days, in the best neighbourhoods, in broad daylight, in our homes, our schools, our workplaces, our private and public places.

Women (and children) are vulnerable at the best of times. At the worst of times -- when the rule of law is nowhere to be seen, and when disorder is unchecked, and when the ordinary protections of civil society are absent (family members, neighbours, passersby, streetlights, escape routes ...), they are doubly and quadrupally vulnerable. Anyone familiar with the experiences of displaced women in all parts of the world knows this, and international aid agencies know that they have special responsibility to these specially vulnerable people. And this is true even in areas within our own societies where the rule of law is weak and disorder is generalized -- women are always at special risk.

And there are people who exploit vulnerability, to victimize. Some men exploit women's vulnerablility to victimize us. That's the way of the world. And those people are everywhere, and expoit whatever opportunity arises, for whatever their reasons may be and whatever the causes of their behaviour may be, to victimize the vulnerable.

And yet somehow, we are supposed to believe that last week's disaster turned everyone in the affected areas into saints, and no men assaulted or abused any women or children.

I, on the other hand, absolutely expected there to be an increase in such victimization. It wouldn't have mattered who the victims of the disaster and subsequent abandonment were, what their race or colour or class or location; there would have been victimizers among them exploiting others' vulnerability.

(Obviously, I have no doubt that the disaster was in large part caused by the utter disregard of the US government for the welfare of anyone, and particularly of the poor and African-Americans, and that the absence of response to the victims' desperate need for aid was in considerable part attributable to its special disregard for the community they belong to.)

But what I have seen is steadfastly blinkered denial that such things happened, calls for proof, rejections of reports that are credible to anyone who acknowledges reality.

Why?

Because acknowleding any of it -- acknowledging the plain certainty that some of it occurred, even if any of the particular allegations has not yet been proved -- would make African-Americans look bad.

Because the reports were being used by racists to demonize African-Americans.

For the love of mike, racists will twist any facts available to them to demonize African-Americans. African-Americans, like any despised minority, live in a no-win situation. Any evidence of their disadvantage will be used as evidence of their lack of worth. Surely we all know that, and expect it to happen.

Would denying the fact that the prison population is disproportionately African-American help the African-American community?

Women live with the same reality. Evidence of our disadvantage is used against us as evidence of our lack of worth all the damned time.

It's impossible to deny the facts of African-Americans in the prisons, for instance, because there are nice hard numbers. It's easy to deny the facts of women's reality, and especially the victimization, because the disadvantage of women is often experienced in private, individually, in isolation, and because the individual women who experience it do not always register themselves in the databases.

The woman who is the de facto symbol of what women experienced in the disaster areas is Charmaine Neville. Her experience has become public, because she made it so and because she is a public figure.

Go to google news and inquire about Charmaine Neville. Here is a transcript of one interview:
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3250&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0

If you go here:
http://www.wafb.com/
you can click to see the video of Neville telling her experience to RC Archbishop Hughes.

What happened to the victims of the disaster was an atrocity. They were abandoned by their society -- abandoned to the wind, the water, the alligators, the filth, the contamination -- and the victimizers. What happened to them is not evidence of the stupidness or laziness or badness of African-Americans -- it is evidence of the utter and complete disregard of their society and its authorities for their welfare.

Charmaine Neville makes that point eloquently in the video. And that video is all that is needed to answer anyone who would twist the experience of the victims of the disaster and the abandonment into evidence of anything but the atrocity committed against them.

But we are told that the stories of what happened to women like her must be denied, must not be believed, because to do so would make African-Americans look bad.

Angela Davis has had things to say about this idea.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/582.html

The Color of Violence Against Women
By Angela Davis, keynote address at the Color of Violence Conference in Santa Cruz,
Colorlines, Vol.3 no.3, Fall 2000

... We have since come to recognize the epidemic proportions of violence within intimate relationships and the pervasiveness of date and acquaintance rape, as well as violence within and against same-sex intimacy. But we must also learn how to oppose the racist fixation on people of color as the primary perpetrators of violence, including domestic and sexual violence, and at the same time to fiercely challenge the real violence that men of color inflict on women. These are precisely the men who are already reviled as the major purveyors of violence in our society: the gang members, the drug-dealers, the drive-by shooters, the burglars, and assailants. In short, the criminal is figured as a black or Latino man who must be locked into prison.

One of the major questions facing this conference is how to develop an analysis that furthers neither the conservative project of sequestering millions of men of color in accordance with the contemporary dictates of globalized capital and its prison industrial complex, nor the equally conservative project of abandoning poor women of color to a continuum of violence that extends from the sweatshops through the prisons, to shelters, and into bedrooms at home.
And into the ravaged streets and the places of supposed refuge of New Orleans. Why on earth would anyone think otherwise, or deny what is so entirely to be expected? And why would the obvious response to demonization of African-American men for what happened to women in this situation not be that it is their society's job to protect them when they are vulnerable to the small minority of any community who victimize them, as all women of every class and colour are and are especially in such situations, and that society REFUSED to do it and bears responsibility for its refusal?

Another interesting bit to note from that presentation:

The major strategy relied on by the women's anti-violence movement of criminalizing violence against women will not put an end to violence against women -- just as imprisonment has not put an end to crime in general.

I should say that this is one of the most vexing issues confronting feminists today. On the one hand, it is necessary to create legal remedies for women who are survivors of violence. But on the other hand, when the remedies rely on punishment within institutions that further promote violence -- against women and men, how do we work with this contradiction?

... We want to continue to contest the neglect of domestic violence against women, the tendency to dismiss it as a private matter. We need to develop an approach that relies on political mobilization rather than legal remedies or social service delivery.
What undoubtedly happened to women in New Orleans is not a private matter, is not their private misfortune. It is just as integral a part of the entire atrocity as the exposure and dehydration and contagion and contamination, and the other undeniable violence, that happened there. But the fact is that women were, and I cannot imagine how it can rationally be questioned, more vulnerable and victimized as a group than men, and the atrocity was perpetrated more horribly and specifically against women (and the old and sick, also more vulnerable, in different ways) than against that community in general.

But there are people everywhere trying to silence these stories. People who say they do not believe them, people who are more subtle and say not that they disbelieve anyone in particular but that they need "proof" of each individual event (will we have proof of each suicide, proof that any person found drowned jumped rather than falling, and refuse to acknowledge that suicides occurred if we don't?), people saying that all such reports in the media must be denied. I hasten to point out that I am not quoting or referring to anyone in particular, and in particular to anyone here at DU.

One can't help but recall what Stokely Carmichael had to say -- reports of the circumstances and exact words vary, but no one denies that he said it:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Stokely_Carmichael

The only position for women in SNCC is prone.
(cutting off discussion when women raised the issue of sexism during the 1964 SNCC conference)
I'm seeing just one more time when women are being told not to voice their concerns, not to report their experience, not to demand recognition of their reality, because it might be bad for someone or something else that is, once again, more important than them.

And I'm disgusted, and outraged, and not happy to see this going on all these years later.

I guess it would be better not to ask me whether I'm surprised.

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not naively. And you are most welcome here, Iverglas
Thank you for the care with which you chose your words. We get censored alot here (as you have probably noticed) when we let our real thoughts and feelings out without careful crafting.

Don't be discouraged if you don't get many responses immediately. Some of us are worn out from the fight that has been raging since the group formed in July. Others, I think, are concentrating our efforts on NO. The group has been quiet recently. I suspect it will pick up again.

Your post is remarkable and your thoughts on the attitudes you note in it are valid. It shouldn't surprise me anymore that anonymous posters on a message board don't understand how much damage and pain their words cause the real women on the other side of the keyboard.

Thank you for sharing this.

(Oh, but I should note that there are some who post even in this forum who may make light of your concerns. We are trying to address that.)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. ta

I usually make myself clear, but I was a little obscure there. I didn't mean to imply that I didn't think I'd find solidarity and was naive for seeking it, I meant (having read a little first) that perhaps I came here naively, if you see what I mean. ;)



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atommom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Thanks for your post. I've been horrified by the events of the past
two weeks, and by some of the responses I've seen, heard, and read. I appreciate your efforts to talk about this without starting a new flame-war, and I hope we can manage to have that discussion here. Most of us really do need a place to talk about our state of mind, and the events that got us into that state.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. always nice not to be alone

I know there are people at DU who are, for instance, both African-Americans and feminists, and (once the heat of the moment is over I guess) I'd be interested in their thoughts.

It surely does get tiresome being treated like an enemy of the people because one calls misogyny what it is.

Funny how identifying race as a factor in victimization would no longer put one on the wrong side of the class struggle most places, but indentifying sex as a factor still puts one on the wrong side of everything so often.

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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. The poor are always victimized
and the women are victimized still further. This surprises people?

I think your hypothesis is correct - there are those who must pooh-pooh any claim of misbehavior by <insert minority group of your choice here> as somehow saying that SOME males of <whatever> group engaged in criminal behavior somehow implicates ALL members of that group. A better approach is to deal realistically with what happened in the hopes that we can prevent it happening again.

It's no use to cover up bad shit and pretend it didn't happen. That does nothing to prevent its recurrence.

By the way, glad to see you over here in the Feminists forum, Iverglas.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. wot, me a feminist??
I wondered whether anybody might have made a T-shirt along the lines of "what, me worry?" but all I could find was this:


http://www.northernsun.com/cgi-bin/ns/1373N2.html

;)

Five or six years ago, a very cute man I'd become good friends with and known well for a couple of years -- first he was my contractor, then I was his not entirely happy confidant during his separation, then he was my tenant/neighbour, and every Tuesday night we indulged in wine, spaghetti, the other stuff and Red Dwarf -- said: iverglas, are you a feminist?

All I could think of to say was: have I done something to make you think I'm not??

Nah, I just enjoy being ornery at rkba-heads (if you can stomach it, check out the outrage over in the gun dungeon at the moment about the confiscation of firearms in New Orleans, surely the greatest tragedy to befall mankind <sic> this millennium; too far gone even for my iron constitution, I'm afraid), but I lost the taste for debating my reality some decades ago and am reluctant to risk being in that position. And hell, even I have only so much time in a day!

Anyhow, that's my concern about the attitudes being taken to victimization of women among the tragedy/atrocity victims. One more time when the reality of their lives will be denied. And the consequences of that for them, and women at large, are not good.

I only hope that the relief agencies are addressing the problem by offering emergency contraception and what prophylactic medications may be appropriate, as well as what psychological support may be needed. Sexual assault really isn't the great horror in itself that it is often portrayed as, for many individual victims, but the circumstances in which it occurs, especially when it involves a serious loss of autonomy and absence of protection to the point of very real fear of death as it not uncommonly does, can make the experience horrifically traumatic. Obviously every aspect of the experience of people trapped in New Orleans was traumatic. But no one is telling anyone that those other aspects didn't happen.


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geniph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. A friend of mine regularly wears a t-shirt
that says THIS is what a feminist looks like! right across her very impressive bosom. They all look. They all read. They all look embarrassed.

:evilgrin:
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. sooo ...

How many feminists does it take to change a lightbulb?

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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 06:01 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Thank you for your words, Iverglas
Katrina has been an eye-opener on so many levels - a real barometer of where our society is with respect to women, race, and class...



and the answer to the lightbulb joke I've always heard is "that's not funny."

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Hey you.
Where's the emoticon of a woman with her hands on her hips, head titled and tapping her foot when you need it? ;) (That's for the answer to the lightbulb joke - but perfectly appreciated.)

Glad to see you around. I don't know, I'm just feeling like I need to connect tonight (too much wine after too much strees, I suppose) and wanted to say hi.

Unfortunately, while the much needed discussion of class and race issues are finally being discussed, women are STILL being denied part of that reality.

I'm putting your book "recommendation" next on my reading list though. Thanks for that.
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alarcojon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Hi L
Hope you're feeling better soon. That stress is a killer - I've been experiencing more of it than usual lately myself.

Angela Davis is a very good writer and speaker. I've seen her speak twice.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-12-05 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Quite a few, actually
One to write the essay on "Screwing in Light Bulbs as a Metaphor for Patriarchy." Another to call for a conference to discuss it. Another to make sure that lesbians, women of color, poor and disabled women are not excluded from setting the conference agenda. Another to arrange for sign language interpretation. Another to coordinate the child care. Another to coordinate meal planning with vegan and vegetarian options. Etc.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. now that I think about it
I *had* heard that version, and it surely is a groaner. But I still like "that's . not . funny" -- fits the Canadian sensibilities. ;)

If I tell it that way, I get to tell:

If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

(Just offering solidarity, guys, you see ;) )

Read another one while looking for something else the other day -- "give a man a fish" alternatives.

What's a four-letter word for a woman ending in "unt"? Ah, how our cultural context fails us at times; mine did.

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Aunt? :-)
Yes, it failed me too for a while but I stuck with it.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. that was my problem

My mind wandered off after "b" (having skipped "a" ...) and then I read the answer. ;)

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-09-05 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Beautiful. Made me smile. Thanks. eom
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Hello_Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-11-05 03:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Thank you so much for this message Iverglas
I've been struggling, as have so many of us here I'm sure, with what I'm sure are many credible instances of horrifying attacks against women and children by predators and the context of the systemic racism that has been perpetrated against the people in that community that led them to be in the situation that had them trapped in the chaos. Then you have the "usual suspects" of the Reich Wing expressing their phony outrage about sexual violence against women. These same people normally don't give a shit about it, except to blame the victims or use it as an excuse to attack feminism.

And why would the obvious response to demonization of African-American men for what happened to women in this situation not be that it is their society's job to protect them when they are vulnerable to the small minority of any community who victimize them, as all women of every class and colour are and are especially in such situations, and that society REFUSED to do it and bears responsibility for its refusal?

Exactly! I really believe that the reason that poor women, and women of color, are more likely to be victimized is not because the men in these groups are necessarily more prone to violence, but because these women are not valued. Therefore their victimization will not be considered important, which emboldens those who would prey on them. Punishments are much harsher when the victim is White, regardless of the race of the perpetrator.


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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. well, I'm still getting the stick
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Sep-13-05 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
19. Here is what we are up against

Whatever has turned human beings into "aliens" in nature are
social changes that have made many human beings "aliens" in their
own social world. the domination of the young by the old, of
women by men, and of men by men. Today, as for many centuries
in the past, there are still oppressive human beings who literally own
society and others who are owned by it. Until society can be
reclaimed by an undivided humanity that will use its collective
wisdom, cultural achievements, technological innovations, scientific
knowledge, and innate creativity for its own benefit and for that of
the natural world, all ecological problems will have their roots in
social problems.

http://www.spunk.org/library/writers/bookchin/sp000514.txt


History of child abuse
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/05_history.html



It is and has always been an "Alpha"problem. Domination,the abuse of power by a few to harm and control others.Get rid of the dominants.
Devalue power,and share it .True equality cannot be done in a hierarchical culture...Denial runs deep.

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