What are your thoughts in this instance?

[Bunny]

You may have seen this thread yesterday:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x3671068

I was annoyed by the whole thread, frankly, but I was particularly bothered by the "come in and munch popcorn and watch the fight" crowd. There were several who were in it for that purpose only - if you read the thread you'll see that.

Anyway, am I hypocritical for being bothered by the idea that someone would relish the idea of "watching the womenfolk get their dander up"?

The reason I ask is because I will admit to "munching popcorn" during some past flame wars, although right at this moment I don't recall any specifically. The point is that I've not been above doing this myself in the past. And to be honest, if a poster were foolish enough to post something derogatory about Blacks, Latinos, Asians, Jews, and what have you, I'd be right in there munching popcorn, waiting to see them get their ass kicked!

So, when it's my demographic group that's being ridiculed, am I being too sensitive? I don't think so, because any derogatory remarks about one of the above groups would be deleted as soon as a Mod got wind of it, whereas negative stuff about women stays up for much longer, if not forever.

By the way, I love the Locking post - it was beautiful!

Anyway, I'd appreciate your thoughts on this.

[Misunderestimator]

1. I get where you're coming from, but I take the munching popcorn

as coming from people who don't really want to get involved, but are acknowledging that they know that the subject will be a flamewar. I do it myself, as a point to the OP that it's a foolish thing to post.

However... After reading the entire thread, I am surprised (VERY) by one poster who I never would have expected it from... minimizing the reactions of those who were offended. And there were a few others who seemed to get too much of a kick from it, so no... I don't think you're being too sensitive.

What takes me the most aback is a post from the OP in response to someone objecting to the sexist nature of the post... in which he ADMITS that it is misogynistic, but makes no apologies for it. :wtf:

Just one more example of how some men don't get how their actions are offensive. It's just a JOKE, little lady!

(I did very much appreciate the mod's lock post on that thread though.)

[Bunny]

3. I think I know who you were surprised by, and I was too (if it's the

same person). I would not have expected that from them. Yeah, the original OP admitted it was misogynistic, but felt we should just lighten up! :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

4. Amazing, wasn't it?

from someone who always complains about lacking female companionship.

:eyes:

[Misunderestimator]

8. You know what I just don't get?

I would expect progressive men to embrace women's opinions. To attempt to understand how what they might perceive as funny is extremely offensive to women. It doesn't MATTER if they don't get why right away... just to understand that it IS offensive because a woman says it is. Is that so hard?

But instead of understanding, we get defensiveness and even more ridicule... lighten up... grow thicker skin... it was just a joke. Seeing these same tired sexist jokes day after day, week after week, year after year, generation after generation... is a little bit tiresome.

w h a t e v e r

[lukasahero]

9. I've got a secret to tell you

not everyone here is "progressive/liberal/whatever the going word is these days".

No, seriously, they may THINK they are but really when push comes to shove, a lot of people are progressive as long as "progressive" requires no "progress" from them.

[Bunny]

13. I think it's a part of the maturation process.

In my 47 years, I've come a long way in my level of understanding of institutional sexism and racism. I'm much more able to see and understand the plight of others, even if their particular plight doesn't directly affect me. And as a white woman, I'm very aware of my race privilege, too.

When you are a white male, it may just take longer to catch on to the reality of the world.

It's an immature person who believes that if they think something is funny, everyone should. And that people who aren't laughing should just lighten up.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. It reminds me of what happens when a certain relative of mine

says something racist. When I object, she says, "Oh, we were just talking." :eyes:

[Kathy in Cambridge]

2. I sent brainshrub a thankful PM for his locking of that thread

yes, men and women are biologically different, as many posters brought up, but the point of that thread was to perpetuate stereotypes. It had nothing to do with 'vive le difference'.

[Bunny]

5. Good for you - I didn't think to do that.

I'd better send one too, it was so nice to see that lock!

[lukasahero]

6. I sent a thank you, you're awesome note to brainshrub as well

"Biologically different" is the new "scientific" escape clause for bigotry.

"Different" doesn't mean "less than". Learn it!

[lukasahero]

7. I understand how you felt.

I've grabbed my share of popcorn but I still felt "icky" when I saw the "Sweet!" reaction to this one. Maybe because it was issued less as a warning (which I think the "popcorner's" are usually suggesting) and more as a "oooh cat fight" which is pretty lame.

[Bunny]

11. Cat fight. That's the exact concept I was looking for!

The popcorn didn't seem to me to be a warning, just some callous guys settling in for some good old-fashioned female bashing.

[Heddi]

10. I am with you and someone else pointed out that

I think there's a difference when you're "munching popcorn" as you read an endless thread between an obvious disruptor getting their ass handed to them by one, or multiple DU'ers.

And then there's this situation. I think it was Misunderestimator who said it seemed to them to be more of an "ooh, catfight!" than "oooh...you posted a controversial subject" way, and that's the disugsting part.

I agree with you. Had the joke been about Jews, or blacks, or homosexuals, it would have been locked and probably outright deleted. I don't think the parsing out of "Oh jeeze, honey, don't worry your pretty little head over it. It's a JOKE...it's biology" would fly in those instances as well as they fly when anything anti-woman is posted.

Anyone remember Jiacinto? He routinely posted "honest question" about The Bell Curve and why, oh why was it considered racist? Even after repeated 'teachings', he just refused to 'get it' and couldn't understand why minority groups were offended by the hypothesis offered in that peice of tripe.

He also posted once about why it was 'racist' to note that through evolution, blacks were more 'physiologically' adapted to play sports, so why is that racist to assume that a tall black person plays basketball, or that they would naturally excell in it.

turns out, he was a disruptor (something I knew from his first post, but oh no..Heddi's wrong..Carlos is a TRUE Du'er...he's not a disruptor..he's a young boy blah blah blah).

In those instances, "simple questions" were a front for spewing hatred and bigotry.

In this instance, "a little joke" was a front for spewing hatred and bigotry.

Thankfully, the rules HAVE gotten better wiith regards to gender bias and misygony---I remember when pussy was a perfectly fine word to use.

I don't think ;you're being too sensitive. I would assume that you, like I, would alert if the subject of the joke were harsh racial stereotypes AND the posters in the thread were all "oh yah! that's SO true..I know Muslims and GOD that is SO TRUE". and "Lighten up, honey...don't blame ME for the biological differences between blacks and whites...I can't help that you've got a big nose and flat lips..."


If a poster made a thread about a racially deragotory joke, and phrased it in the "Oh look at this shitty email I got", I would probably NOT alert, unless people in the thread, as I said above, started to LAUGH and HAVE FUN AT THE EXPENSE OF OTHER GROUPS. Anyone who can find humour in a racist joke is no progressive, imo.

It's one thing to see a freeper getting their ass handed to them for making stupid comments. It's another to watch DU'ers behave worse than cavedwellers at the expense of others, and to be egged on SOLELY because they know they can get someone's goat by posting a particular thread. In that thread, people were watching because they were waiting for the FEMINAZIS to come out of the woodwork and start being harpies and ruining the boys' fun. THEY KNEW they were participating in bigoted hatred AND THEY ENJOYED IT BECAUSE IT GOT OUR DANDERS UP AND THEY KNEW NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM BECAUSE OF IT.

fuck that.

"he's making a list, and checking it twice, gonna find out who's naughty or nice..."

[Bunny]

12. As always Heddi, you say it so thoughtfully.

"It's one thing to see a freeper getting their ass handed to them for making stupid comments. It's another to watch DU'ers behave worse than cavedwellers at the expense of others, and to be egged on SOLELY because they know they can get someone's goat by posting a particular thread. In that thread, people were watching because they were waiting for the FEMINAZIS to come out of the woodwork and start being harpies and ruining the boys' fun. THEY KNEW they were participating in bigoted hatred AND THEY ENJOYED IT BECAUSE IT GOT OUR DANDERS UP AND THEY KNEW NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN TO THEM BECAUSE OF IT."

That's exactly how it felt to me at the time! And yes, I remember Jiacinto - he was quite an ass most days. But believe it or not I stood up for him once or twice - but that was only because I thought he had some serious mental health issues. He sure was a piece of work. Don't miss him one bit.

[Heddi]

14. Maybe that's the thing that's so infuriating

Honestly---the women who come to this forum, and we know who we are, are seen as a collective pain in the ass to a large number of DU'ers.

We're seen as the party-poopers, the duds, the women who just CANT TAKE A FUCKING JOKE ALREADY.

We're seen as harpies, as nags, as uptight, bitches, need to get laid, on the rag, hate men, must not have orgasms, dry vagina...you know what I mean.

And the thing that's SO infuriating to me is that, for the most part, if a 'call out' on a sexist thread is going to be made, it's going to be made by ONE OF US. Not the lounge lizards, not the good old boys, not the ones who know better. US.

It has become US v. THEM.

A few months ago, I was a frequent visitor to the Fat Acceptance forum. That was when THe Princess and CO Liberal were active members on DU. THat was also when the hoopla over Fat Actress was making its way across the board, and very hateful comments were made about people (generally women) who were overweight, or at least not the standard of beauty thrust upon us by the Media.

I never saw Fat Actress--I don't have Showtime and couldn't defend or denegrate the show--I've heard wonderful things about it from full-figured people, and I've heard that it really is nothing more than a fat-version of blackface from others. I can't judge because I haven't seen it.

But there were people who didn't like the show--namely, the Princess and CO liberal. They made their views well known on the subject, and maybe not in the most....polite way. But then again, I don't take too kindly to bigotry and hatred and don't always let MY views known in the nicest way either.

At any rate, there became (and still is, to a degree) a running joke about The Princess and CO Liberal in the lounge. They were degraded for their weight, made fun of for their opinions, and just humiliated as people. I know that since they were banned, there is some evidence (I hear) that they weren't reallly libs to begin with, blah blah blah.

It doesn't matter to me what their political affiliation was. They weren't made fun of because they weren't libs. They were made fun of because they were FAT and because they stood up for FAT issues and took issue when people made FAT jokes and other nasties with regards to people's body sizes.

I didn't always agree with their methods, and honestly can't say I cry over their banishment. HOWEVER--I agree with what they stood up for and I'm happy that the furor THEY raised over the FAT issue caused, in part, DU to get a rule that makes it not okay to make fat jokes, etc.

And, like the sexist posts, the ONLY people who had a problem with the daily, even HOURLY denegration of anyone who weighed over 120# were the "Fatties". I was among them, just like I'm among the "harpies" of the Feminist Forum. NO ONE ELSE stood up for them (CO & Princess).

NONE of the Lounge Regulars could get it through their quite thick skulls that perhaps, PERHAPS making fun of someone who is obese isn't the nicest thing to do in the world.

And, like the thread you're referencing above, they enjoyed posing rude and inflammatory things JUST TO GET THE DANDER of the 'fat police'.

That is bully mentality, and it is NO different than that awful episode I experienced in my yard the other day.

I guarantee you---GAR-ON-FUCKING-TEE you that if any of these Keyboard Kommandos were stripped of the protective nature of internet anonymity, if they were FACE TO FACE with any of us "harpies", they would NEVER have the fucking gonads to say what they say in the Lounge.

THey'd NEVER have the gonads to denegrate another human being TO THEIR FACE regarding their weight or looks if they couldn't hide in Mommy's basement and surf DU and Fark.com all day long.

But they do it because they're allowed to. They have a WIDE support network of Neandertals that egg them on and give them a free pass to be as rude, crude, and socially unacceptable as possible. It's like you get some kind of stripes for being the biggest Asshole on earth--ON PURPOSE, even.

You see it in all sectors of society, and I guess it really should be no surprise that it's on DU. There are always people who are 'followers' and do things SPECIFICALLY to impress others. We see it in middle and high-school, where young girls become essentially lemmings who don't have an original thought in their head. They become engrossed in fasion styles that allow them to 'fit in'. They do things SOLELY for the notion that if they do X, they'll be 'popular'.

We see it with boys as well, doing the same things as everyone else because groupthink is so much easier than forming an individual identity.

And of course, these kids that strive to be at the top of the pecking order (and those that are at the top, and encourage the groupthink mentality) are the biggest bullies on the planet. YOU'RE NOT LIKE ME. THEREFORE YOU ARE LESSER. YOU ARE NOTHING. They find that by highlighting the weaknesses in others, their own weaknesses are diminished or hidden completely. Make someone else feel small to make yourself feel big.

I've seen it as an adult, in the workplace, where everyone feels they have to BE a certain way to 'fit in' and that individuality is, for the most part, shunned in favour of "the Team Player Mentality".

We crush individuality as a concept, and encourage our children to be children that follow, which turns them into adults that follow, which turns them into adults that never grew past the 'bully' stage of youth because they know no other way to get attention. It worked when they were 16, by god, and it'll work when they're 36 too!

---

That is the core of the bullshit in the lounge, and with the boys on my street, and the shitheads at the mall, and the cat-calling construction workers. They don't do it alone. They MUST do it in groups because otherwise, they would have NO positive reinforcement for their behaviour. And the only reason they do it is to get the reinforcement, to get the acceptance, to show that THEY'RE cool enough to harass an old lady sitting at a busstop, to show that THEY'RE IN, TOO because they can make pointless sexist threads in the Lounge.


---
Du'ers always point out that Republicans are afraid of Liberals because we're 'free thinkers' and don't just DO because someone tells us to. Well, I don't know how true that is. Look at the Copycat threads in the lounge--why is that done? Out of personal humour? NO! It's done because it's known that doing so garners you some sort of attention. It's a badge of honour to push the envelope just one more mm to get that thread locked. It's a testament to personal identity to start a flamewar.

Yeah. That's individual thinking. That's about as much individual thought as Pavlovian dogs drooling at the sound of a fucking bell.

[Misunderestimator]

15. Heddi... as a "Lounge Regular" I must say a couple of things...

Re. CO Lib and the Princess... from my perspective, and many others I know, it was NOT about their weight. It was about the Princess making everything a disruption. The unfortunate incident with the Fat Actress threads... was ridiculous but was also a final straw. Yes, many people went over the line, and no... it was not only overweight people who objected to that discrimination. Personally, the only problem I ever had with either one of them was a thread the princess started about "white trash."

I think you generalized a little bit there about us "loungers"... I for one, never put up with that shit.

[Heddi]

18. I should have been more specific

with referring to Lounge Regulars--there are a TON of progressives on this site who are regulars in the lounge. I think, though, that without naming names, you can gather who the more...um...less-than-progressive "regulars" are that I'm talking about.

And you're right about FA & CO and Princess. They weren't the only ones who made an issue of weight disparity, and again, I do NOT agree with their methods and thought they were way over the top--the reason I stopped posting in the FA forum was because every. single. fucking. thread. was dominated by CO & Princess about the DEADLY DANGERS of bariatric surgery. It couldn't even be MENTIONED without a multi-thread tyrade where disagreement with one IMMEDIATELY garnered personal insults from the other. It was disugsting and they both tried to re-write the forum rules to prohibit any talk of weight-loss-surgery. Fuck that. it's not THEIR forum, and plenty of people WANTED to talk about that, and about other contentious issues regarding the fat acceptance movement.

I stopped posting there because the vitrol and nastiness was so over the fucking top. Even though they're gone, I have no desire to post there because alot of the people who were active posters in that forum have left for the same reason I did.

What was troubling to me, though, that even though they were disruptors to the nth degree, people found that they could I guess make fun of their weight and quantify it with the 'well, they were disruptors' caveat. It was, and is offensive to me because I am overweight. I'm not any more sensitive about my weight than I am sensitive about being a woman, but I think it lowers us, as a group, when we can say "Oh, well THEY'RE disruptors so it's okay to make fun of them for being fat". It's the same as "Well, Anne Coulter is a repub, so it's okay to make fun of her less-than-feminine qualities".


It's not okay in any instance, regardless of political affiliation or whatever.

I didn't mean to generalize so broadly about the lounge. But I think, again, that you know who the 'regular band of assholes' are that constantly stir shit up for no other reason than to stir shit up.

[Misunderestimator]

22. I do know what you are talking about...

I just wanted to defend the other side of the regulars there. I completely agree that the weight matter was exploited and used against them, but I think you expressed very well why most of us were annoyed with them. I also agree that weight discrimination is all too often an accepted prejudice, even here. And that's entirely unacceptable.

[Bunny]

16. Very good points. I've often gotten into flame wars over the fat

issue myself. I'm not a tiny woman, I've got some extra meat on my bones. And it pisses me off to no end that women are always, ALWAYS measured first on their looks!

As for CO Lib and the Princess, I didn't care much for them, and I think they started their share of flame wars too. My dislike for them stemmed from their personalities, not their weight. But I respect that you had a closer relationship with them, and knew them better than I did.

I guess I am also one of the "Bitch Brigade" at DU. Apparently, I just haven't been laid lately, or I'm PMS'ing, or I hate men, or I'm just outright frigid! Feh. If someone doesn't like me because I'm a feminist, fuck them. They're no one I care to associate with anyway.

[Branjor]

17. I don't even bother

with men. Besides the fact that I find them uninteresting and unappealing, all this "struggling with" them just eggs them on. They think they're important enough for you to bother with.

[Bunny]

24. Well, I know what you mean. But I actually like men.

At least I like the ones I don't have to stuggle with! I have five brothers and one sister, so I grew up around males. I have a pretty good idea of how they are, and I basically like their general "maleness". It's the Neanderthals I can't handle! :)

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Yes, I grew up with two brothers, and I work in a profession

that is probably about 3/4 men.

I like men who have mastered the difficult art of being masculine without being macho (i.e. mean, crude, and deliberately ignorant).

[Heddi]

20. i wouldn't say that I had a closer relationship

with them. They posted in the FA forum and so did I.

I never really hung out in the lounge, and only recently (when they were escorted from DU) found out abouut many of the distasteful posts and comments they made there.

Neither of them could ever be considered to be my favourite posters on DU--far from it. Their activism turned into disruption, and I think for many of the same reasons that the sexist posts do---many times, I don't think they were so much arguing for or against a point, but rather just arguing for the sake of arguing.

And EVERYTHING was personal to them. If you said X about something CO said, IMMEDIATELY the princess would jump in with "how dare you insult my husband. You don't know him. You just hate him and me because we're fat. That's bigoted. I hate you" blah blah blah. Like, no. I disagreed with him. I have no beef with his size. THAT, I think, was part of their persecution complex that made them unable to see ANYTHING outside their very myopic view of the world. ANYTHING said in disagreement, in their eyes, was just a clever way to get in a dig at their weight. Wasn't so, at least not in all cases.

I can't say I was crying when I found out they were banned. I felt that issues regarding weight acceptance could FINALLY be disucssed without resorting to personal attacks from either side. And they were very fond of giving personal attacks to others, but incapable of receiving them. They were very much martyrs in their own mind.

Plus, they were just creepy, and always seemed to be 'trolling' for a date or something. Ew. It went beyond being flirtatious and coquetish and went directly into the realm of internet creepiness. ew ew ew. Did you see the thread where she posted pictures of CO's feet and said she had a foot fetish? Now, I'm no podiatrist, but thems was some funkay feet and the LAST pair of feet I would ever imagine to form a fetish over. Ugh. I feel like puking just thinking about it :)

[BlueIris]

19. I still can't believe that shit was posted on this site.

That version of that list is infamous. I can't believe it made it here. I know, I know, after everything we've seen, I shouldn't be surprised, but yet--I am. Because: vile.

I'm glad to see the OP mention a thread locking post for that disgusting pile of crap. That's great, as I wouldn't have known because I couldn't get past the first three statements--I recognized that fucking thing and my head exploded.

[Heddi]

21. even more vile

is the fact that this tripe is posted about every..three months or so. Just give it time and it'll be resurected, with the same hee-haws and "lighten up, honey"

One thing I find interesting though is that I've seen threads in the lounge with titles like "Why are all men such assholes" and are usually written by someone who was just jilted, or dumped, or lied to.

IMMEDIATELY the thread is flooded with comments like 'Oh! Now that's not fair! I'm not an asshole! Most Men Aren't! That's a generalization. That's unfair. That hurts. Men make mistakes, too. Women aren't perfect" blah blah blah.

Oh! The incredulus nature of someone to post something so GENERAL and BASELESS about men. Don't you know that men are ABUSED TOO? MEN ARE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST TOO!!! All men aren't evil. Stop being a man-hater. Why do you hate men? That wouldn't fly if we said the same thing about women (point: it is tolerated and tolerated wholly).

Wassa matter? Baby can't take a joke? Lighten up, boys. It's biological that men are assholes, right? (Just as it's biological that women like shopping and gossping!). Don't find that funny...why, you must need to get laid. You must have a small penis. You musn't have good orgasms. Looks like someone's going through a mid-life crisis. Whassamatta, beer-belly got you down?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Right, it wasn't the first time I'd seen that list

I wrote up a bunch of rebuttals to it, but by the time I was ready to post, the thread was locked. :-(

[Hello_Kitty]

23. I saw it too

Before it got locked. I'd seen that stupid list before but it was usually linked on progressive, feminist sites where it was mocked for the garbage it is. It looks like it was intended to be humorous but judging from some of the responses it got like "I mostly agree with everything on there", a lot of guys really do think that way, even here on DU. Oh, and that guy who claimed it wasn't comparable to a list about people from other races or religions because men and women are biologically different really irritated me.

Typical "liberal" male who wants to retain his privelege and entitlement while retaining his progressive cred in every other area. I see this all the time with my political activism. Guys who get up on the podium and rail against the injustice of poverty, racism, and homophobia. They're big pro-choicers too. Uh huh. Then they corner you in the parking lot to tell you how great your body looks and make a veiled reference to what they'd like to do with you if they weren't married. But oh yeah, I forgot. They can't help it. It's biological dontcha know! :sarcasm:

[Solly Mack]

28. I approached it with mean-spirited humor

What I originally typed out would have gotten me banned.
(possibly)

So I elected to give a little tit for tat.

I am tired of seeing such posts made by those who feel insecure because women exist. I'd rather they'd pay a doctor to listen to their cries for help rather than have them post their fears of women on DU.