Am I having an off day, or is this thread horrifying?

[BlueIris]

I'm not saying everything in it is horrifying, there are some valid points being made. But--well, I know everyone here has a lot on her or his mind today, and the event on which this thread is focused may not rate too high, yet: I'm very disturbed by some of the posts. Thoughts?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1596685&mesg_id=1596685

[Hello_Kitty]

1. It started right away, didn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1596685&mesg_id=1596697

The usual crowd? To what crowd is he referring? I think what happened to this guy is unduly harsh but I hate when stories like this get so much more attention than the main issue. For every one ridiculous conviction like this there are at least 100 horrific cases of sexual abuse that go mostly unpunished.

How often do we even see a thread about that? And I guarantee if I were to start one in GD about the tragedy and prevalence of child sex abuse, the "usual crowd" would chime in with tales like this one about some hapless dude who got caught up in a "hysterical witch hunt". Which just serves to distract from and undermine progress in this area.

[VelmaD]

2. That thread was disturbing...

particularly the post by the person whose 21 year old son had sex with a 14 year old and they don't understand why the courts might consider that borderline pedophilia. 14 is barely pubescent for some girls.

[Hello_Kitty]

3. Oh my god!! I just read that one

Yikes! Totally reminds me of a friend of mine, who is now 34. She met her ex-husband when she was 14 and he was 21. Her mother actually encouraged the relationship out of jealousy! The guy was a friend of my friend's stepfather's and the mom was concerned that stepdad was eyeing her nubile daughter and she didn't want to compete. So she pushed her into dating an ADULT man to get her out of the house. Oh, but I'm sure the relationship was consensual... :sarcasm: 14 year olds always make rational decisions.

My friend ended up marrying the guy when she was 17. He was a total control freak and his mother was really mean to her. She was convinced that my friend was some wily temptress who seduced her son with her youthful charms. (I think that poster might be operating under the same delusion about her own son)

Fortunately, they divorced but she still has to share custody of her son with him. Apparently, he is filling the boy's head with the worst ideas about women, such as that when he grows up he should go overseas to get a bride because American women are too demanding. My friend says she is deeply scarred by what happened to her. What ADULTS in her life did to her and allowed to be done to her.

[BlueIris]

5. Oh. My. God. That is...unfortunate.

I mean, it's not like I've never heard of that happening, but--unfortunate.

Respectfully, and yes, I realize that there's only so much that is appropriate to say even to a friend, have you encouraged her to revisit the custody arrangement? If that were my friend, I'd find at least one carefully selected segway into an attempt at that conversation. You could be helping to stop the creation of a future misogynist or at least one very, very confused kid.

[Hello_Kitty]

6. Oh I have

The weird, and really disturbing, thing about that is that she's not willing to do it. She's got the mis-guided idea that a boy needs his father and that any father, even this one, is better than none. Also, her ex has a lot of money so he'd be able to get himself a good lawyer. And once again, my friend is laboring under the delusion that the benefits (financial security, good college, etc..) outweigh the harm being done to him by having this freak for a male role-model.

One thing that probably won't surprise you is that all of these people are Bush-bots. Even my friend. Voted for * because he made her feel "safe". Ex is a goose-stepping fascist Dittohead. The 13 year old son is already so conservative that I and another friend secretly refer to him as Dick Cheney Jr.

[BlueIris]

7. Oh, no. Okay. Yeah, might not be all that much left to "save" there.

Someone should tell your friend that the son might have better financial aid packages offered to him from America's best private schools if he went to live with her within the next couple of years, though. That was how I was really screwed by the education system in America--"rich" parents.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. You know it

That reminds me of yet another friend of mine. She came from an equally f-ed up family and is really smart. She had a hard time paying for college because her parents were very wealthy, despite the fact that she basically told them to go piss up a rope when she was 18 and has been on her own ever since.

[BlueIris]

9. Good for your other friend.

My friends who have them claim they're a bitch, but...taking money from assholes to go to not-the-college-you-wanted-and-could-have-gotten-into because you're too scared to take on those loans...not the thrill ride you might expect. Looking down at your younger sibling because she did the same thing, in part because of the example you set? Also, not the greatest set of feelings in the world. Lots of issues to be dealt with there, after the dust settles. I'm not saying that people who have to haul around $40-100,000 in debt for the rest of their lives have it easy by any means, but some of them probably have more of their souls left than some other folks who made less wonderful choices.

[Hello_Kitty]

10. I went into the military myself

And must say that I'm not entirely sure it was the right thing to do, in retrospect. It's great that I got all my college paid for but on the other hand, I went to college later in life than my peers and I think that put me behind the curve. Plus the Navy sucked.

[BlueIris]

12. Well, it's not like I'm TOO down on myself,

I think the system is so unfair that almost no one can make a "good" choice about how to handle the expense of college...well, some can, but it's not like those people had it "easy" either necessarily. I could give some examples (like the five or six friends I know who committed blatant tax/FAFSA/financial fraud to make college not-heinously-expensive for them, to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, WITH the consent and assistance of their parents) but...well, I'm just saying, none of its easy, but I wish I'd considered loans as opposed to the route I took.

[BlueIris]

4. Woah. I missed that horrifying post.

Yikes.

Because...even if 14 were barely, barely in any sense NOT INSANE and "borderline" pedophelia because some young women are barely pubescent at that age, the idea that a 14 year old is mentally, emotionally and psychologically anywhere near what a 21 year old is, (or in this case, is SUPPOSED to be) is INSANE. Age of consent is 18 for a reason. Not meant to sound pedantic or condescending, VelmaD, obviously YOU get it. Jesus Christ. Is that post still up?

ETA: Evidently, or people wouldn't be posting about it here. Okay, I've vowed not to give the mods an unduly hard time, because--they're going to have their hands full and? I feel that. There's only so much one group of people can do. But--!!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

14. I really had to restrain myself.

That post was absolutely disgusting. He got exactly what he deserved IMHO. When a full grown adult looks at a bunch of 8th graders and finds them arousing, that sure as hell is pedophila.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BlueIris]

21. So, "technically" it wasn't pedophelia; it WAS illegal and wrong.

That man's behavior might have been the result of a lot of things, like haebophelia--which is sex with pubescent young adults. But 21 year olds shouldn't get to have sex with 14 year olds in our allegedly civilized society. Once again, the age of consent is 18 for a reason. A 21 year old desiring to, or in that case reportedly actually having sex with a 14 year old, should go to jail, then spend the rest of his life in therapy.

[Finder]

25. Age of consent varies ...

worldwide and even within the US. For example, the AOC in Canada is 14 for m/f.

http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

21 is still relatively young and in many places contemporary with teens. I agree if it broke the local law he should be prosecuted but spending the rest of his life in therapy is up to a psychologist not society IMO. Each case needs to be evaluated.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

26. Nowhere in the U.S. is the AOC less than 14 for females.

If he lives here in the U.S., he certainly did break the law. A 14 year old is still a child. A 21 year old is a full fledged adult, getting ready to graduate college or already with a job, who can drink, smoke, drive, etc. A grown man who finds his dates in middle schools is disgusting.

[OKNancy]

22. True

I've noticed that, and I assume you mean the actual TERM.
Pedophilia means sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children ( those who have not developed secondary sexual characteristics )

Attractions to eight graders would be what I would call : a nasty, immature creep.

[Finder]

24. I do mean the term.

Don't understand why my post was deleted though. :shrug:

[Solly Mack]

11. I just re-read the entire thread

and I am confused as to why anyone would turn that into a bash Feminists session...unless of course they just use any the opportunity to bash Feminists.(Duh, right?)

Serious issues and concerns get buried under when people use topics simply to attack...it shows a total disregard of women when someone turns anything and everything into a chance to bash feminists.

[antigone382]

13. Ugh. I didn't even bother with that thread.

Personally, if you don't want to get accused of attempting a sex crime, you shouldn't grab and berate a 14-year-old girl, even if she does something stupid like walk in front of a moving vehicle (though pedestrians do have the right of way). I'm 21, and if a man were to grab me by the arm and start "lecturing" me, I would feel extremely threatened and do whatever it took to get out of that situation as quickly as possible. I can't imagine being in that situation at the age of 21.

So maybe the guy wasn't trying to molest her, and maybe she did scare him by walking in front of his car. I understand that. But that isn't an excuse for a man to physically restrain or berate a woman, much less a young girl. The world is already a threatening enough place for women, and men should be aware of that fact and act accordingly.

[noamnety]

17. I'm with you

If a stranger grabbed me and wouldn't let go, I would consider it an abduction attempt. End of story.

[atommom]

15. Yuck. I don't think the guy should be registered as a sex offender,

but he had no business grabbing her. I'm sure she was terrified.

I was also troubled by all the posts from people who refuse to help other people's kids. Seems heartless to me, and not in keeping with "progressive" ideals. It's more like the conservative mantra: Take Care of Your Own and Screw Everyone Else. :(

[BlueIris]

18. Yeah, but as a compassionate, progressive yet still child-free adult,

I'm often reluctant to approach a child or parent-child situation in any sense, even if that situation looks unhealthy, inappropriate or dangerous to me. It's not my business, is how I see it. I mean, I've never witnessed a child/young person doing something crazy-dangerous or a parent abusing a child, and I'm not sure what I'd do if that kind of situation arose right in front of me, but it's not like I blame the people posting about how the parents of the world can parent their own children. Because--yeah. I get why a lot of those posts looked hostile and rude to you, but to me, you're not a bad progressive if you don't want to intervene in a situation it's not your place to intervene in. Doesn't mean you don't want to help people or are inherently selfish, but I think it's important everyone make sure that help is offered to those who need it in appropriate, legal ways.

[Finder]

19. It takes a village...

to raise a child, some say. I agree!

[BlueIris]

20. I hate that expression.

There are lots of instances I can think of in which the village has no obligation whatsoever to "help" parents raise their children. I'm not a bad progressive because I leave the children others in the world made themselves responsible for to their parents.

[Finder]

23. Can you give me an example?

I think the term is a bit overused by the right to mean interfering and that is not what it is supposed to mean.

I doubt any progressive would enable a child to be abused, neglected, or uneducated once we were aware of it. If you see a child vandalizing or bullying another, it affects the community as a whole.

[Hello_Kitty]

28. I bristle at that phrase too

On the one hand, I realize the care and well-being of children is vitally important whether or not you have them. However, as a childless, or child-free if you will, person I already suck it up to pay more taxes, spend more time and take on more responsibility at work, and have my ability to freely and conveniently enjoy certain adult pleasures circumscribed for the "safety" of children. So I think I do quite enough as part of the village. Any more than that and I'm going to want some say in who gets to have kids.

I could put up with all that a lot more easily were it not for the fact that some people who are parents have no qualms about insulting me and treating me like a freak oddity because I've chosen not to procreate. I've been called selfish - right to my face - more than once. People feel free to ask me why I don't want children and then give me a 50 cent psychoanalysis about it on the spot. I'd like to tell more than a few parents what I think of their life choices and how selfish I think they are for bringing innocent children into their disastrous marriages and personal lives. But that isn't allowed.

[BlueIris]

29. I'm just saying, even as a compassionate progressive, there are

certain obligations with regard to other people's children that I don't have. I don't bitch about paying higher taxes to fund schools, what few after-school programs my state still provides and my state's ineffectual, misogynist state-sponsored health care plan that pays for health coverage for 1/3 of my state's children--and as a single, never-married, no dependents I pay 'em ALL. But I'm not a bad progressive because I'm not going to feel obligated to go next door and interrogate a mother about how much t.v. her kid is watching, or who she's dating/married to, even if I have opinions as a progressive about whether or not those factors constitute responsible parenting. If I saw her hit her kid? That would merit a phone call to the appropritate government agency. If I wondered why she was letting her kids play out in the street after dark? Well, I'd wonder why I didn't have better things to wonder about.

Also? The progressive tent is an awful big one--to some around here, it should encompass anyone who's NOT Republican. I'm not saying I'm one of the posters with that point of view, but I really hope no one on this board would be attempting to define too much of it. I'm willing to hear arguments that progressivism focuses on core beliefs about how government should function, but not about (too many) of the personal values progressives "should" have. I mean, yeah, I think progressives need to be non-racist and non-misogynist and free of other ignorance, but--that's because everyone should be free from those things. And that's about all I'd feel comfortable trying to define for others in this movement.

[BlueIris]

27. For gods' sake! It's 185+ posts and climbing.

You'd think people would run out of creepy shit to post.

[BlueIris]

30. 240 posts as of this morning.

Why?