Check out this thread -

[smirkymonkey]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1573025

Is anyone else sick of Muslims getting a pass on their extreme sexism in the name of "tolerance"? Some of these threads on the way women are treated in the Middle East amaze me - and you can always count on a majority of DU men (and some women) to defend them and cry racism.

Why is racism unforgivable, while sexism barely raises an eybrow among most of these people? I am really disgusted by what passes for a progressive forum on political issues.

[spooky3]

1. I'm with you (eom).

[lukasahero]

2. I have difficulty myself

with saying it's "Muslims". It's not just Muslims, it's cultures (not just religions) all over the world where the treatment of women is appalling. Yes, it does disturb me tremendously but I also see a real danger in singling out Muslims (especially since in this country the "Christians" are the ones who want to put women in burkas). I'm leery of contributing to the hate that already exists towards them in this country.

However, this is one of the biggest problems/challenges I think we as females face today - the idea put forth by people in this country that it's just "their culture". Yeah, and with attitudes like that, pretty soon it's going to be our culture. Nothing wrong with half the world considering females "dirty" and beneath them. Heck, why not just make it the whole world. These very same people would be jumping all over this guy if it was a black or Jewish man he "wouldn't touch".

I must admit that short of calling them on it, I have little to offer in answer to your question. I really do not understand how and why it's acceptable to some to treat women differently than any other human being. How sick do you feel when you wake up every day and realize that half the world thinks you are beneath them? Why can't people in this country understand that that is how it feels to be a woman today?

[smirkymonkey]

6. I should clarify - it's not all Muslims and I realize that sexism

is everywhere (and I am seeing it become more and more acceptable here in the good old USA) but I was pointing out that a number of threads have come up particularly stating cases in which certain Muslim countries (and Sharia law in particular) treat women worse than livestock, and DU'ers rush to defend them.

I know there are certian cultural things I will never understand, but torturing, stoning and taking a woman's life in the name of religion is beyond my comprehension. It's not all Muslims, but most of these cases refer back to religion as the reason for the injustice.

"When a man is oppressed it's a tragedy, when a woman is oppressed, it's tradition." Bernadette Mosala

[lukasahero]

8. I got that - really

I didn't mean to suggest you were calling out all Muslims. I just find myself having trouble discussing this because I see subtleties that I can't communicate effectively in writing. I see problems both with the current treatment of women all over the globe as well as with labels that divide people in the areas of religion, culture, gender, whatever. It makes it tricky to navigate a discussion.

And more difficult still is the underlying motivation of the people that get involved in the conversation. There are plenty of people on this board who hate women, there are plenty of other people on this board who are ambiguous to the issues that women face and there are also people who are pro-women but are trying to navigate the delicate balance of talking about oppressive regimes and religions without the use of labels being applied to entire groups of people. And then there are those who just like to stir sh*t up for whatever the reason. :evilgrin:

I am simply disgusted with anyone who calls themselves "progressive" and yet doesn't get unbelievably outraged at the horrible conditions women face in today's world and yes, some interpretations of Sharia law in particular. But it's going to be a difficult discussion to have on this board because of the different types of motivators people have. And the real issue is what we can do about it? Answer that one for me and I'll be in debt to you forever. ;)

[Vladimir]

3. I would repeat what I said on that thread

though perhaps in a more polite form - the article does, in my mind, seek to portray Muslims as an 'other'. One of the recurring themes in this genre is that the 'other' should be demonized in a way which most sensible people will accept, hence in this case the particular characteristic which the author draws our attention to is the misogeny of Mr. Al-Jaafari (which, by the way, I do not in the slightest acquit him of). The problem is that this then gets used as a justification for imperialing adventures, because people are much more likely to accept war against a country if they are already convinced that the citizens of said country are evil or bad in some way. One might also say that a fair article about Mr. Al-Jaafari would first condemn him as a puppett of the US/UK occupation and condemn his participation in a charade of government which has seen violence in Iraq (and in particular violence towards women) skyrocket, and then focus on how he refuses to shake the hands of women - but that is not nearly as useful if the goal of the article is to portray him as part of the 'other'.

So yes, I do think articles like this are part of a racist genre, even if it is absolutely true that many Middle Eastern governments treat women with complete contempt and deny them many basic rights.

on edit: I might also add that I do not accept this discourse of 'cultural differences', whereby certain reactionary policies are excused by virtue of the fact that they are practiced by people who aren't us. Reactionary politics are never allright - but sometimes they are criticised as an excuse for other reactionary policies, like here, and then it is no longer such a simple matter what condemnation is correct and what isn't.

[Warpy]

4. I've talked to women from Saudi Arabia

at length. I was a night nurse, and there was nothing for them to do at 3AM when they were staying with an elderly relative to translate for her except to talk to the night nurses.

What they told me is that they feel very protected by everything that we in the west find appalling, that family acts as a buffer from the worst of it, and that growing up with it makes a big difference. They were all educated in Europe or the US but said they'd never want to live here. They universally wanted to be able to drive, though.

The women I talked to were all educated and wealthy, and I'm sure that made a huge difference, too.

However, I learned not to judge a culture by my own experience. I could never live there. I'd go completely bonkers in record time. However, women who grew up in that culture said the same thing about ours.

[Lisa0825]

14. I had the same experience talking to a Muslim woman.

It was long ago, so I don't remember all the details, but for each point I brought up as a negative, she showed me a different way to look at it. The one point I distinctly remember was about having separate entrances for men and for women. She said it's not that the women's entrance is a "lesser" entrance at all. It's out of respect and protection. When a crowd is entering the building, there would be the tendency for people to bump into each other, or brush up against each other. It is not considered acceptable for a man who is a stranger to have such physical contact with a woman, so the separate entrance is considered a way to prevent that.

Yes, I still realize that there are many laws and other cultural behaviors that are inexcusable (IMO), but I do think that some things are just poorly understood by people outside the culture. The worst aspects of the treatment of women are things that some groups are attempting to change within the culture. But I don't see the entire culture changing. There will still be things we see as wrong, but they accept and see from a different perspective.

[geniph]

5. Remember that there are those here

whose sole purpose is to divide us. Remember that there ARE moles on DU who introduce deliberately inflammatory topics and stories just to see progressives go at one another. While the misogyny of progressives should never be excused, we have at least a chance of dialogue with them; they can be educated. The misogyny of the conservatives who oppose us, on the other hand, is profound and not likely to be changed. Always remember who our real opposition is, and keep the spears pointed in the right direction.

That being said, I'll state my piece. I do not think the Muslim religion is inherently misogynistic. If you read the Koran, Muhammad was not a misogynist himself, nor did he promote treating women as lesser beings. However, various cultures have interpreted the Muslim religion through the filter of their own cultural prejudices, and the dominant influence on the Muslim religion since its inception has been the Bedouin culture, which is extremely misogynistic. It was the Bedouins who introduced much of the most egregious examples of sexism. Unfortunately, that has proven very attractive in cultures which were desperate for someone to treat as second-class citizens, or which already treated women as chattel, and those cultures have created a religio-cultural hybrid which is extremely unfriendly to women.

But not all Muslim PEOPLE are sexist, and the religion itself is not sexism codified.

[smirkymonkey]

7. I don't think Islam is inherently misogynistic, but I do believe that

all FUNDAMENTALIST forms of ANY religion tend to be misogynistic in the extreme. I apologize if I have painted with a broad brush here, it's just that these specific posts have been about Muslim religion justifying abuse toward women.

[Finder]

9. That is key...

fundamentalists using a particular religion to oppress. I differ with some as far as my belief that the major religions are ALL partriarchal and I personally define that as misogynist.

[geniph]

10. Emphatic agreement

I don't like fundies and absolutists, whether they're Baptists, Shiites, Orthodox Jews, Hindus, or worshiping Mumbo Jumbo the Great God of Outer Armpitolia. It's fundies that are the true misogynists. But there ARE such things as liberal Muslims. (My husband forever argues about this with me, but there ARE. I used to work for one.)

[Eloriel]

11. It's not been my experience that misogynist DUers

are "educable." That's precisely my problem with them. Edited: Even allowing that some of them are disruptors, they can't all be and a good many otherwise progressive men here (and far too many women!) are rigidly, proudly and jubilantly, NOT educable.

[BlueIris]

12. I've been meaning to stick this somewhere on DU for a long time:

http://www.al-bushra.org/mos-chr/birkett.html

I hope everyone gets a chance to read that, if you haven't already. It is my understanding that this essay made the rounds here once or twice, a long time ago, but I thought I'd stick it up in case anyone needs to refresh. Throughout the last year, I've spent a lot of time reading books about Islam and the people who practice this rich, complex faith around the world. It really bothers me how many people harbor too many horrible misconceptions about Islam and Muslims. I'm not saying anyone who has posted in this forum does, but since this discussion has given me the segway, there's the link.

[smirkymonkey]

13. Thanks - I hadn't read that before.

It was very enlightening. Although I still maintain that any theocracy, be it Christian, Jewish or Muslim is inherently hostile toward women.

Chances are if a government becomes a theocracy, it is going to be fundamentalist in some form. True worshippers do not need to force others to believe as they do - only the fearful, lunatic wing of religions need to force thier beliefs on the entire society.

Also, patriarchal religions in general, and Abrahamic religions in particular are inherently sexist and chauvanistic by their very nature - divinity is male and only male.