I am noticing a pattern here...

[Finder]

Just about every thread mentioning sexism, looks, etc. discusses television/media. I don't watch much TV or listen to radio so I don't see a lot of what is mentioned. Also, like many of you in the group, I am unconventional and not into the whole glamour scene and for the most part don't find the attitudes many of you have found. Then again, I could care less what others think of me based on my looks or choices. A couple of girlfriends criticize me for not having my nails done or getting a chemical peel but I surely don't take it to heart. Their idea of going out is shopping, beauty treatments or yapping about weight issues--not my cup of tea at all.

I also rarely socialize with women--most of my friends are male(gay and straight). When I go out with them we go to lectures, book signings, conferences or out for drinks and discuss politics, business, community stuff.

Anyway, what I am getting at is that maybe I am ignoring the sexism around me for the most part or choosing to distance myself from that mindset. TV/media and the judgement of other women seem to be the culprits for most of the angst for a lot of us.

[all.of.me]

1. it's that old question:

does society mimic tv, or does tv mimic society?

having a teenage daughter who is the total opposite of me has really opened my eyes to what's out there for them. it's a competitive, catty world. MY world isn't like that, but hers is.

and when i watch tv with her, the shows pit women against women. i can't stand it. i constantly interject how i feel, then she says i'm criticizing everything she watches. i can't win.

aside from that, if NO ONE watched tv for a year, we'd become who we really are. that'll never happen, but it's a nice thought.

[Warpy]

2. I would be totally isolated in the suburbs

but here in the inner city, even in a lousy neighborhood, I find women who are interested in the arts (there is another weaver on my block alone) and the sciences.

I also found women in a small town in a largely rural area who were interested in things outside fashion and shopping.

Suburbs are deadly, though. Although women who have interests outside what the ladies' magazines edited by men tell them they should have, they'll play the game just to fit in and not be isolated.

[Finder]

3. I am in the burbs...

so maybe that explains it. I do travel to Boston and NYC and definitely see a difference in "style" as far as males and females.

[chicaloca]

4. I don't watch TV or read women's magazines either...

But I seem to choose really crappy male friends. While all my female friends tell me I'm beautiful, sexy, etc., men are never as kind. One of my guy friends called me "the Pillsbury Dough Girl" once (um, I'm about 5'4" and weigh 120 pounds) and my ex-boyfriend once told me that I need to go on a diet. One time I got on the bus, and some guy told me that I have fat legs (again, note my height and weight). Another time I was on the light rail, and some jackass was having a conversation with his son, who couldn't be more than seven, about how I'm weird-looking. Now, I don't really know how people perceive me, but there's really not much about my looks that doesn't fall within conventional beauty standards. About the only things about me that don't meet stupid-ass conventional criteria are that I have dark hair and eyes (and yes, that's considered outside of conventional beauty) and my hair is kind of thin and only down to my shoulders. So if somebody like me gets shit, I can only imagine what it's like for other women. And it pisses me off to no end that even avoiding media isn't enough to save my self-esteem -- as soon as I go outside, it's automatically assumed that my body is a goddamn open house, open for public comment by any asshole who can't bother to get a hobby.

Why the fuck do beauty standards even exist? And why am I not allowed to punch anyone who buys into them? Their fucking face will heal a lot faster than my self-esteem, I'm pretty sure.

[Hello_Kitty]

11. Yeah, it's not like you can ever avoid it

Especially if you live in any sort of populous urban area or if you hang out with men in any capacity. Maybe in a small town where everybody knows everyone it's different but not anywhere I've been. I've worked with guys for years and my experience is that many of them have no qualms about dissecting womens' appearance in public. A writer I read said that every woman between the age of 10 and 60 is considered a blind and deaf beauty pageant contestant, whether she wants to be or not. It's true. I watch tables full of guys in the cafeteria at my large company ogle women that walk by. And they think they're being slick because they wait a half second after she's walked by to crane their necks and make gestures and comments to each other. Yo, not only does she probably know what you're doing but everyone in your vicinity does too. Usually these guys are well over the age of 25 so there's no ignorance excuse. They know how they are expected to behave at work and they are choosing to do what they want.

As for the critical comments, I've started dishing it right back at them. When a guy says something about how I or other women look I suggest to him that he might want to hit the gym himself. As for weight, most guys have no earthly clue what women generally weigh. I weigh 140 lbs at 5'7". I'm small, size 6 or 8 American and about 8 or 10 British depending who makes the clothes. I told a guy recently and he was shocked! "But, but, you're not FAT! You don't really weigh that much!" Yeah I do. But he's grown up hearing women being described as 115 lbs so he thinks anything above that is huge. Personally, I don't think I'd look too good at 115.

[spooky3]

5. I've always worked in a male-dominated profession and disagree

as to who the "culprits" are.

Men's behavior is just as likely, if not more so, to be the source of "angst."

If I had "friends" of either gender who thought they must offer unrequested advice on how I looked or whether I had enough beauty treatments, they would soon be ex-friends.

There are many women who like to do the things you describe, and other activities (such as sports, participatory or spectator).

[Finder]

9. To clarify

I do believe men are the culprits as far as them being the majority in the media/TV.

As far as "friends" offering beauty advice--they mean well so I wouldn't toss them as friends but I won't "hang" with them either. The few women I do know that are unconventional are way too busy to socialize at all. They tend to be workaholic types and email and phone socializing is about the best we can do.(besides the fact we are thousands of miles away)

[Name removed]

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[Finder]

10. By ignore I mean not dwelling on or reacting to it--

I am talking about the day to day stereotypes and such. Of course if I am a victim of it--look out! As I mentioned in another thread--banks, investment firms, contractors that require a spouse etc. irk me and I do take action. As a consumer, I demand equal treatment and if I don't get it, They get a tongue lashing, a letter to the corporate office and they don't get my money.

As far as the body image stuff--I am pro-health whether it be 120lbs or 180lbs for the individual. I wasn't always immune however, as a teen a boy I liked said I had a "fat ass" which prompted me to obsess over my weight for a bit. He later married a woman that weighed 50 lbs more than me so I learned my lesson early.

[Senior citizen]

7. There used to be a workshop that let females experience being "male."

It is a very useful experiment. They put rolled up socks in their pants, but that isn't really necessary, as nobody is really going to be staring at a guy's crotch.

So, what you do is, you get man's wig and hide your hair underneath it. You don't put on any makeup. You get some men's clothes. A thrift store will do, and if you have a particularly exaggerated female figure, you'll just have to buy looser clothes. You don't get a suit, just whatever type clothes a casual guy would wear. Maybe a pair of chinos or khakis, a button-down shirt, and a sports jacket. And some men's shoes and socks. Nothing that would call attention to a male wearing the same clothes, and nothing very "butch."

Then, instead of going to bars like the people in that workshop did, you just go to the grocery store. It can even be in your own neighborhood. Clerks in stores you've shopped in for 20 years aren't likely to recognize you, as people don't scrutinize men too closely for fear of being rude. You ride public transit. You go to a bank and get change. You experience having people say, "May I help you, Sir?" and, "Thank you, Sir," and what it is like to be able to walk around without people staring at you or making critical comments. You learn how it feels not to have to be self-conscious about your appearance, and to be treated with respect unquestioningly.

That's it. Then you go back to your usual self, but the few hours you spent as a "man" will change your life forever. You'll have experienced freedom and equality. It is eye-opening.

[Hello_Kitty]

20. No doubt!

I want to try that. I often run to the store wearing sweats and no makeup. But it's still obvious I'm a woman, though I'm making no effort to present myself as sexually appealing. I don't get treated badly, but not nearly as well as if I'm more dressed up and groomed. The disparity is very obvious. When I think about it, I don't think guys get treated differently based on how they dress unless their attire makes their occupation clear i.e., working class or professional. There's definitely no sexual dynamic present for them and I've yet to hear a guy apologize for his disheveled appearance upon running into an acquaintance as so many women will for having the audacity for running to the store for coffee creamer without getting dolled up beforehand. I've done it. You know what? I hereby declare that I will henceforth refrain from apologizing for how I look at any time.

[lukasahero]

8. "I also rarely socialize with women--most of my friends are male"

You see, to me, that sounds like sexism of a different sort - when women put other women down for being who they are. You prefer the company of males, no problem. But then you suggest that you simply can't find women who share your cultured interests.

I have several female friends who share my interests in politics, art, sports and yes, even those "girlie" activities like cooking, gardening or even, heaven forbid, talking - about relationships no less! (I don't like to shop but my husband does so I have difficulty with the idea that this is either a "feminine" phenomenon or necessarily a bad thing.) I have also known women who do like shopping and clothes and shoes and make-up - that's cool if that's their thing but it isn't mine so I don't find myself fostering friendships with them. No problem, I've got lots of other female friends with whom I do share interests. (FYI to add perspective to the "urban/suburban" wedge issue, I've never lived in the city.)

Regarding the "influence" of the media, I don't watch much TV either but when I do, it is not difficult to notice that most of the ads refer to women as "shoppers" who like to spend their husbands money, and, in the reverse, all the guys are lazy slobs who don't know how to take care of themselves. But it's hardly just television - it's on the radio, in the magazines, on the subways, in the newspapers even in our families, cultures and religions. Our exposure to these suggestions start at a young age when perhaps not everyone has developed the sense of self necessary to withstand their influence.

[Eloriel]

12. Thanks for saying what I'm thinking (in part) better than I could have

I also rarely socialize with women--most of my friends are male

I find that problematic as well. I have NO problem finding women with whom to be friends who aren't shallow and who have varied and diverse and cultural tastes and interests. And I have no problem being friends with men -- I've always had friends who were male.

And once in a while my women friends and I also talk about clothes. gasp!! We DO need to clothe ourselves in this society, and that means sometime, somewhere, we DO have to shop for clothes, even if at the thrift store or whatever.

Some of this stuff is getting ridiculous.

[geniph]

13. I wouldn't stigmatize someone for that

...I don't really have any women friends either, mostly because I'm not around women much. Most of my friends are gay men, because that's who I'm around and that's who I tend to be closest to.

We all have our little quirks. It doesn't automatically make someone suspect that they don't have close women friends. Or it shouldn't, anyway.

[lukasahero]

14. Not having close female friends isn't what I was getting at

It was the suggestion that women only want to go shopping and "yap" about weight issues and only men can offer intellectual stimulation.

I've been as guilty as any guy at putting women down for being "girlie". I used to wear it as a badge of honor that I was not such. But I have recently come to realize that that doesn't make women equal, it makes them as less than as any guy has ever thought we were. And I realized I was contributing to the problem.

Women will never be equal if the things that are uniquely and beautifully female continue to be thought of as not as good. It's a point to which I'm particularly sensitive now as a result.

(I'm not suggesting that shopping is particularly uniquely and beautifully female. ;))

[Finder]

15. That was specific...

to two of my girlfriends who I feel have been caught up in the whole media farce and are hung up on getting nails done, the latest fashions, weight and dermatology treatments. I was suggesting a pattern based on my experiences.

It is becoming quite difficult to have a discussion here when everything I say is being held under a microscope.

Honest, I am not your enemy.

[Heddi]

16. I'm like you, only I don't have any friends at all :)

Seriously. My husband and I are hermetic homebodies who are very...critical of others. We have two sets of really close friends and none really outside that circle. I think alot of it has to do with the fact that we're not really social creatures. I enjoy going to a bar occasionally, but not EVERY SINGLE NIGHT OF THE WEEK, and that seems to be the trend among people our age in our area---wanna hang out? Great! Meet me at the bar at 8.....groan.

When I was in high school, I really had only one or two female friends at a time, and the rest were boys who were mostly gay, but alot were straight.

I found that I was just able to 'be myself' more around guys than gals. The girls I was around at the time WERE self absorbed. It was all "Call me tomorrow and let me know what you're going to wear to school" ?? what the hell? Why is this important for you to know? Are you going to coordinate your outfit with what everyone else is wearing? How...silly.

I was never a 'girlie girl'---not into clothes, not into hair or makeup or fashions or media or entertainment. I don't want to watch a Julia Roberts dramedy, no matter HOW hot the lead actor is. I don't WANT to go to the mall for 4 hours every Saturday--it's boring. It's the SAME MALL that it was last week, and the week before, and the same mall that it will be the week after next.

That doesnt' mean that I'm incapable of having female friends, or that I shun other females in a stereotypical "oh god..a woman..she must be into shopping or something" way. I just find that I can be more myself around either males or married/long term couples. Of course, I'm married, so I find it much more entertaining to be around someone our age (early 30's) that's in a stable relationship than I do being around someone who's in their early 20's, still dating, bouncing from boyfriend to boyfriend---I'm just 'beyond' that at this point and the less drama that someone brings into a friendship, the better.

And, for the record, I've found that in the past, my FEMALE friends have been ALL ABOUT THE DRAMA, and I just don't want that constant negativity in my life. A really good friend of mine and I aren't friends anymore because, as much as I empathized with her relationship woes, I just got tired of every time we talked, it would be about HER marriage problems and HER child problems and HER job problems and she'd only call me, or talk to me if I called her, if she was having some fucking bullshit pedantric drama in her life.

I asked her once if she even KNEW what city I lived in (she didn't), if she KNEW when my birthday was (completely wrong)---but I knew everything about her life, and I thought it unfair of her to use me just as a sounding board for her woes while not paying any attention to MY life or MY interests in the process. We're no longer friends, her marriage has failed, her child is a cretin, she's shacked up with some guy and is pregnant with his child. VERY glad we ended the friendship when we did, otherwise I might have killed myself :)

[Hello_Kitty]

21. Total loner here

Though I can be quite sociable when I want to be. I find most other people boring and tiresome. Female or male. They want to talk about the most trivial inane things and I cannot live my life on such a superficial level. I have one really close female friend with whom I share everything and several not-as-close friends in my political groups but that's about it.

I love clothes and decorating and things like that but I can't see talking about it for hours on end, like a lot of women do. But guys also prattle on about equally inconsequential things like sports and gadgets.

Don't mind me, I'm just cranky today. Better get to the gym.

[Name removed]

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[Finder]

18. I am pretty free in my expression

and I am not afraid to disagree or call a spade a spade. Only a couple have put me on their "watch list" which is fine--I agree we need to vet these days with all the division and such.

I get frustrated whenever a problem is discussed and the other side of the coin is not allowed to be presented or discussed/debated--I just don't see the world as black and white. Simple complaining seems a waste of time to me. I am not talking about this forum but issues in general.

[Misunderestimator]

19. "and a very very very few who actually think that they must work on...

themselves to get things to change."

Why the blanket insult, shaman? Sounds to me, like most of your posts... to be saying that feminists blame others for their problems. Why do you post in this group if you don't understand the issues of feminism?

[Hello_Kitty]

22. I see many, many, posts in this group

Discussing how we as feminists have changed our own behavior to fight sexism and enlighten others. I don't get where we would be characterized as idle complainers.

[FizzFuzz]

23. why is your profile disabled?

just curious. Not meaning to sound threatening.