Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Sylvia Plath's son commits suicide and she is blamed.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Women » Feminists Group Donate to DU
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 05:35 PM
Original message
Sylvia Plath's son commits suicide and she is blamed.
How convenient is that.
Refresh | 0 Recommendations Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
1. by whom??

CNN talks about suicidal tendencies possibly running in families

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/24/suicide.hereditary.families/

The Globe and Mail (seems to be a blog) quotes his stepmother as having nothing to say

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090324.WBBooksblog20090324152206/WBStory/WBBooksblog

Scientific American has the familial stuff too:

http://www.sciam.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=sylvia-plaths-son-and-suicide-in-fa-09-03-24
Whether Hughes inherited a suicidal tendency is unknown. But he suffered from depression and had significant life trauma. Not only did his mother commit suicide, his father’s second lover, Assia Wevill, also committed suicide, by asphyxiation from a gas stove. Curiously, she died 40 years ago to the very day—when Hughes decided to take his own life.


Maybe we should be looking at the father here ... that's a lot of partners for one person to lose to suicide ...

My Sylvia Plath days were long ago, but wasn't Ted Hughes a bit of a complete asshole? Or is it the other suicidal poet I'm thinking of ... By Grand Central Station and all that ...

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. ah yes



http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article5956380.ece
Ted Hughes was hounded for the rest of his life by feminists and Plath devotees who accused him of driving her to her death by his infidelity.

In 1969 he suffered another terrible loss when his mistress gassed herself and their daughter in an apparent copycat suicide.

You can't send me to prison for killing both my parents ... Take pity on me, I'm an orphan ...

Poor Ted Hughes, his mistreated partners have a tendency to kill themselves.


There seem to be some reports that it was the anniversary of Plath's death when her son killed himself, but it wasn't:
Dr Hughes’s parents split up before he was 1, his father leaving Plath for Assia Wevill, the exotic wife of another poet. The winter that followed was unrelentingly harsh. Struggling to get by on very little money as a single parent with two young children, Plath’s fragile mental state collapsed. She wrote many of her finest poems in a final burst of creativity and killed herself early one February morning.

Six years later Wevill, who had lived with Hughes and the children for much of the intervening period, also gassed herself. It was March 23, 1969 – 40 years ago today – and her death differed from Plath’s in one appalling respect: she had murdered four-year-old Shura in the process.

I do remember this bit, as Joyce Carol Oates recalls:

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/why-the-plath-legacy-lives/?ref=books
Also, Plath wrote specifically about suicide — her own suicide, much-meditated and plotted — and her much-publicized ill treatment at the hands of her husband Ted Hughes made her into a feminist martyr of a kind. (Though Plath herself was contemptuous of feminism and of most other women.)

Yeah, you gotta defend even the jerks. And frankly I always thought she kinda was one. I'm not much for poetry ... no plot ... but to be an acclaimed poet, one kind of has to be not quite a moron. Behave like a moron and one kind of has no one to blame but one's self. Oh woe is me, I have an abusive partner, I think I'll martyr myself to love and write some poetry ...

I dunno. I actually do think Plath bears some blame, I guess. I think she behaved moronically -- both by getting mixed up with Hughes and by killing herself -- and her children suffered as a result.


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-24-09 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. I'll just chatter on ...

I was quite interested to see what the Daily Mail -- the UK's print version of Fox News -- had to say.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1164297/What-does-suicide-Ted-Hughes-son-tell-poisonous-legacy.html
When suicide crosses a generation, however, it always raises questions about the existence of a 'suicide gene'.

... And yet this explanation seems far too convenient for those admiring apologists who see Yorkshire-born Ted Hughes as a romantic adventurer who just happened to be unlucky with his women.

In reality he was a selfish and ruthless man who was a savage lover and a domestic tyrant.

The fact is, not only did his first wife Sylvia kill herself, but six years later so did the woman for whom he left her, together with their delightful four-year-old daughter.

If there is, as some suggest, a curse on this far-flung family rather than some genetic complication, has it not been placed on them by Hughes himself?

Consider what Nicholas must have gone through losing not just one mother during his early childhood, but effectively two. No wonder he suffered from depression, while his writer and poet elder sister Frieda, 49, has suffered from depression, ME and anorexia.

A family friend writes in the Times that it was actually the death of his father that shattered Nicholas Hughes.

Oh yeah. Plath actually wasn't a moron, at least intellectually:
... she arrived at Cambridge as an American Fulbright Scholar.

She met the darkly handsome Hughes at a party and he kissed her 'bang smash on the mouth' and she bit his cheek so hard that it ran with blood.

I'm sorry, but that really is just moronic attention-seeking behaviour.

Nobody deserves to be treated as she was, but damn, when you're highly intelligent, you despise other women and you choose to spend your time with men like that, what the fuck do you expect?
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. How brilliant of you to bash people not here to defend themselves.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. how nice of you to drop by

Hitler isn't here to defend himself either ...


Does depression excuse anything a person might do?

If you bothered to have a clue about the person you are addressing, you would know that I am about the first to argue that there are many degrees of responsibility, and that "choice" is often a somewhat meaningless concept, where the range of choices available to someone -- or that someone perceives as available to him/her -- is narrower than it would be to ourselves or to the general population. Responsibility is diminished by things like traumatic experience and intellectual and emotional limitations.

Were Plath's ideas about womanhood and herself as a woman purely conditioned by the 1950s? Or was a woman with a Fulbright scholarship someone from whom a little more insight and action can be expected?

Were her desperate straits in the months before her suicide a result of abuse combined with mental illness, or a result of her conscious choice to hitch her life to a man and make herself dependent on him for all of her needs - both material and emotional? Oh, except that she insisted on maintaining the self that was a writer. Again: the conflict that all women experience, resulting from the irreconcilable demands coming from outside and inside, and the pain that all women experience when they are measured or measure themselves and find themselves wanting, regardless of whether they accept the standards? or -- a choice to define and measure her own self according to both standards, external and internal, and thus create her own conflict?

Ordinary women -- and we are all ordinary women -- when faced with abandonment and hungry children, would go out and get a job. Sling hash. Whatever. Plath, if you want my opinion, was enormously self-centred. Womanhood/motherhood (inseparable for her) and writing poetry, those were to be her life. It seems to me that the children were just the trappings of it. She wanted them, and she wrote poetry about them. She really didn't seem to think that feeding and clothing and housing them was her job.

And yes, I know: depression, to an outsider, is very easily mistaken for self-indulgence. But this was no unexamined depressive life. This was a woman who thought and spoke and wrote constantly about her choices.

I found this somewhat unsatisfying, but for want of time it's what I just had a look at:

http://www.sapphireblue.com/writing/plath.html
This seems to be at the very crux of the claiming of Sylvia Plath by the feminist establishment: that the author was painfully aware that to become all she wanted to become would be to break the binds of stereotype and sexual double standard, and that society would not make it easy for her. But where her writing speaks of her inner dualities, and sometimes even to extreme resentment and jealousy of men for what they had that she did not, it also speaks of a woman who did want to be fully a woman, in many contrasting senses of the word, and to claim as hers some of the very things that so many women who call themselves feminists have rejected in their own searches for completion: love of a man, the raising of children, the creation of what she could create to leave her dual stamps of Woman and of Wit in indelible imprint on her world.

A fair bit of straw being chucked around there.

Leaving one's stamp is all very well. Taking responsibility for one's self and the children one creates - and indeed, the man (or woman) one loves - is what just seems to me to be missing from Sylvia Plath's equation.

But hey, don't feel compelled to actually discuss any of the questions that arise when we think about Sylvia Plath. I'm sure the whole thing is just black and white and I'm missing it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #5
13. please see my post 20

and please return to this subthread and address me civilly, or retract that pointless and unpleasant personal comment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
blueraven95 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. ...
"Yeah, you gotta defend even the jerks. And frankly I always thought she kinda was one. I'm not much for poetry ... no plot ... but to be an acclaimed poet, one kind of has to be not quite a moron. Behave like a moron and one kind of has no one to blame but one's self. Oh woe is me, I have an abusive partner, I think I'll martyr myself to love and write some poetry ...

I dunno. I actually do think Plath bears some blame, I guess. I think she behaved moronically -- both by getting mixed up with Hughes and by killing herself -- and her children suffered as a result."


It sounds to me like you've never dealt with someone who is suicidal. It isn't rational and mostly can't be blamed on the people around the suicidal person. I'm not saying Hughes was a saint - because he certainly wasn't - but his actions would have only pushed her over, not caused the underlying mental illness, at least as I understand it. It seems to me that Plath also had a very bad relationship with her father, as well, which could have been a contributing factor.

I understand not liking or appreciating her poetry - I love it, but I understand it's a matter of taste - but to bash her for what, ultimately, is almost definitely a chemical imbalance in her brain which lead to her death, is unconscionable.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #7
16. how it sounds to you

and it seems I must repeat myself. Dear dear.

How it sounds to you is not the truth. I have no idea whether what you state as how it sounds to you is the truth of how it sounds to you or not.

It sounds to me like you've never dealt with someone who is suicidal.

Bzzt. You lose. What you say it sounds like to you is false.

to bash her for what, ultimately, is almost definitely a chemical imbalance in her brain which lead to her death, is unconscionable.

Bzzt. You lose. Misrepresenting what another participant in a discussion said is an automatic red card, and you're sidelined for the rest of the game.




Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. btw

If you liked Sylvia Plath, do try Elizabeth Smart.

I hadn't realized that no one here would likely get the By Grand Central Station ... reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_(author)
Elizabeth Smart (December 27, 1913 – March 4, 1986) was a Canadian poet and novelist. Her book, By Grand Central Station I Sat Down and Wept, detailed her romance with the poet George Barker. She is the subject of the 1991 biography, By Heart: Elizabeth Smart a Life, by Rosemary Sullivan, and a film, Elizabeth Smart: On the Side of the Angels, produced by Maya Gallus.

Also a one-woman play which I saw some years ago. An experience made annoying by the fact that the actor played the entire piece dressed in a bathrobe open at the front, so that one was constantly treated to the flashing of boobs, and spent the rest of the time in anticipation thereof.
In 1937 she gained employment as the secretary to Margaret (Mrs. Alfred) Watt, head of the Associated Country Women of the World. Smart travelled extensively throughout the world accompanying Watt to various conferences. It was during this time that she happened across a book of poetry by George Barker, immediately falling in love not only with the poetry, but with the man himself.

After her travels with Mrs. Watt, Smart returned to Ottawa where she spent six months writing society notes for the women's page of The Ottawa Journal. At parties she would often ask about Barker, saying she wanted to meet and marry him. Soon she began a correspondence with the poet.

Relationship with George Barker

Eager to launch her writing career, Smart quit the Journal and left Ottawa for good. Traveling on her own, she visited New York, Mexico and California, joining a writers' colony at Big Sur. While there, she made contact with Barker through Lawrence Durrell, paying to fly Barker and his wife to the United States from Japan where he was teaching. Soon after meeting, they began a tumultuous affair which was to last for years.

In 1941, after becoming pregnant, Smart returned to Canada, settling in Pender Harbour, British Columbia to have the child she would name Georgina Barker. Barker attempted to visit her in Canada, but Smart's family exerted influence on government officials, and consequently he was turned back at the border, cited with "moral turpitude".

Smart soon returned to the United States and began work as a file clerk for the British embassy in Washington. Two years later, in 1943, during the height of the war, she sailed to the United Kingdom to join Barker. There she gave birth to their second child, Christopher Barker, and obtained employment at the British Ministry of Defence to support her children.

... In addition to the unconventional nature of the relationship, the affair was fraught with turmoil. Barker was a heavy drinker and Smart took up the habit, which intensified when the two were together. The couple were involved in numerous fights; during one argument, Smart bit off part of Barker's upper lip. Nonetheless, as evidenced from writings in her journals, Smart's love for Barker continued for the remainder of her life.

Ah, I thought she had killed herself too, but it was a heart attack much later in life.

Anyhow -- any familiar notes struck there?

http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/writers/027005-5200-e.html
The collection allows us a clearer understanding of a complex person: a passionate, vibrant, accomplished woman given to periods of lethargy, self-doubt and depression. Romantic by nature, Smart searched for the vital connections in life that she believed could only really be found in love, art and the natural world.

http://www.sapphireblue.com/writing/plath.html
Plath gives the subject of her divided female selves and opposing aspirations treatment in her 1956 poem "Two Sisters of Persephone" (Collected Poems 31-32). The piece paints a portrait of two sisters, different as dark and light. The first is a logical, mathematical, intellectual, indoorsy sort whose "rat-shrewd squint eyes" and "root-pale meager frame" serve to make her seem hardly a woman at all, not in the feminine sense of womanhood. The second sister is a vibrant, nature-connected woman whose setting clearly makes her a symbol of fertile womanhood: she lounges luxuriantly in the yard, "bronzed as earth", taking in the vivid "red silk flare of petaled blood" of a nearby "bed of poppies". The first of Plath's sisters goes to her grave a virgin, "with flesh laid waste, / Worm-husbanded, yet no woman", while the second becomes the "sun's bride" and "grows quick with seed". To a reader familiar with a bit of the author's background, the poem is quite obviously a self-portrait, wherein Plath sees in herself the potential for a dry, spinsterish life of intellect and little else, alongside the conflicting looming vision of herself as a vital and sparkling woman made complete in motherhood, nature's most lavish gift.

I wonder whether Plath had read Smart. ;)




Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
4. I saw that EF.
Thank you for all the links in the "big" forum. :hug: What a tragic loss.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-25-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Really is. There has to be a better solution for depression
than blame. :hug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
12. just another reminder

DU groups are for discussion of particular issues among like-minded DU members in an atmosphere of respect, as I understand the concept.

They really are not for carrying on stupid, ignorance-based and/or falsehood-based personal vendettas.

I would suggest that if someone disagrees with something said in this thread or any other, they state their reasons, directly to the person they disagree with, and indicate that they are willing to engage in further discussion.

I am not interested in being followed around by snipes. I am not interested in being told I have said things I have not said. I am not interested in content-less posts in "reply" to mine by people who then refuse to engage in any discussion.

I don't think anyone who is a genuine participant in this group is either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Mar-26-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. .
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=206x11

6. Please be aware that no members "own" or "run" any particular group, nor do members have the ability to decide who participates in any given group. The regular DU rules apply to postings in the DU Groups. If a DU Group becomes disruptive to the rest of the message board, the Administrators reserve the right to shut it down.

Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. I'll bet

that was relevant to something. Can't think what, but I'm sure it's something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. .
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Mar-27-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. and you are not the flying spaghetti monster

And I'll bet you'll claim not to get my point.

Of course, my post will look silly sitting here with yours gone.


Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. And for pity's sake

The lyricism of marginality may find inspiration in the image of the "outlaw," the great social nomad, who prowls on the confines of a docile, frightened order -Michele Foucault

If you're going to pretend to have read Foucault, you might at least have spelled his name correctly. Or maybe you thought he was a woman ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
blueraven95 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-28-09 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. actually, that is exactly what I attempted to do.
However, your response clearly indicated that you wanted to engage in further discussion, so I decided it was not worth my time or energy to try to figure out how to politely respond to you.
Printer Friendly | Permalink | Reply | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Sat May 04th 2024, 12:52 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » DU Groups » Women » Feminists Group Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC