Okay, here it is, the thought that invades almost every thread: LOOKS!

[efhmc]

The concept of beauty is so complicated and intertwined and pervasive in our society, that no woman can escape it. No matter how strong and self reliant we are, there it still is, we are judged on our looks. All of us can related incidents of discrimination because of our looks. Is this something we will always have to deal with because we live in such a male dominated, commercial driven, youth oriented society? Or, as we women gain more power, will we be able to achieve our goals, no matter how fat, pretty, small/large bosomed, fat/slim thighed, lovely complexion/bumpy skin, etc. we are?

[Finder]

1. I think sometimes...

a woman's self-image is her own worst enemy. A physically and mentally healthy person is what we should strive to be.

[efhmc]

2. A beautifully well balanced answer.

[VelmaD]

3. Gee...I wonder where...

that low self-image so many women have comes from?

[efhmc]

4. Probably sexless creatures from outerspace.

[lukasahero]

8. Ding ding ding we have a winner

"A woman's self-image is her own worst enemy?" Perhaps it's time we stopped blaming women for their condition and begin addressing what created that condition in the first place.

"A woman's self-image is her own worst enemy?" Yes, why on earth would we possibly have a poor self-image when nearly every marketing strategy in the frickin' country is aimed at selling the perfect woman's body to young men? How many unattractive women are leading ladies in film or on television? For that matter, how many of them are CEO's?

"A woman's self-image is her own worst enemy?" How many magazines exist to address a woman's mind, education and career considerations? Now, how many exist to encourage her to diet, be thin, wear the right clothes, know the right make-up tips, "get" the right man?

This is the tactic being used in every issue that affects women's lives and something I thought we were supposed to get away from in this group. Yes, there are things we can do to begin to wrest control away from those who have always had it but we also have to admit that there are things that affect us from the outside. Things that will continue to limit our options and hinder our potential if we simply refuse to acknowledge them.

Can't we please, at least in this group, get away from blaming women for every pitfall women face?

[Finder]

12. Women are human.

Low self-esteem in males and females hinders potential. I do think some women believe society is constantly judging them which leads to the obsession over their looks. That is not healthy.

I can't understand why the shallow thinking of some in society should have any effect on us as individuals.

I wasn't blaming women, I was trying to offer a bit of empowerment advice. I assume this group is a safe place to discuss issues we face and possible strategies to overcome them.

As far as advertising and women's magazines....supply and demand! As long as people buy that tripe they will keep offering it.

I think there are many women who are "real" in film and as CEOs, etc...Kathleen Bates, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, Martha Stewart, Meryl Streep, Rosanne...and numerous others been successful without fitting into "society's" view of glamorous or sexy.

[lukasahero]

18. Ok, so let's really discuss strategies to overcome the problems

Telling someone what's wrong with them and what they should think or feel instead is neither empowering nor proposing a strategy for them to use to overcome the problem. In fact, it reinforces that they are just not good enough and there is something wrong with them so the problem of low self-esteem continues.

"I do think some women believe society is constantly judging them." Are you suggesting it's not? Take a look around GD or the Lounge and count the number of posts about women that focus on their looks - too thin, too fat, not pretty enough, not sexy enough, her clothing too prim, not fashionable, too revealing. Calls to criticize republican women for their actions and not their looks are derided. Go over to the Women's World group and take a look at the thread called "Roseanne Cash's Guide for Women of a Certain Age" - a veritable diatribe on fashion and behavior faux pas that women over 40 should avoid. Sorry, society does constantly judge women.

"I think there are many women who are "real" in film and as CEOs, etc...Kathleen Bates, Rosie O'Donnell, Oprah, Martha Stewart, Meryl Streep, Rosanne...and numerous others been successful without fitting into "society's" view of glamorous or sexy." I didn't use the words glamorous or sexy, I used the word "attractive". At the very least, one has to admit that Oprah, Martha Stewart and Meryl Streep are attractive. Not to mention that a list of six in a category of hundreds hardly disproves the rule but merely points out that exceptions to it do exist. Agreed, exceptions do exist. Now, how do we go about giving women the tools to make what is now the exception, the rule?

And that brings us back to the strategies bit. Ok, so according to your post, the problem? Low self-esteem. The end goal: physical and mental health. Now, how do reach the goal? That would be offering a strategy. I would suggest that, as a start, we stop contributing to the problem.

To wit, you suggest that people should just stop buying the magazines that put them down. Well, the fact is many women with low self-esteem buy these magazines because they promise to fix the problem - "look better and you'll feel better", "lose weight, feel great". These things contribute to the low self-esteem in the first place because she's looking in the wrong direction - she's looking at how she can meet society's standard of what she should be and they are only more than willing to tell her. When she can't meet those ideals, not surprisingly, she feels even worse - now not only does she feel unattractive but she also feels incompetent because she couldn't do the things that are suggested to "fix herself up".

Then here we come along telling her to "just not do that any more" which amounts to attacking her from the other side - now she has to meet our standards of what she should be as well. Maybe instead of telling women what they are doing wrong, we could start telling them what they're doing right. Perhaps we could not only stop criticizing women's appearances but start actively complimenting their acheivements, especially those of the non-physical variety. Or better yet, just compliment her for the things that make her uniquely her: her heart, her mind, her thoughts, her feelings, her ideas, her determination, strength and courage. It would be a start.

I wish I had the money to start a magazine or a center for women to come and actually learn ways to improve their self-esteem, learn that it doesn't revolve around their appearance. It's encouraging to see so many women here on this thread talk about empowering our daughters and ourselves to believe our worth is beyond our appearance. It's probably only going to happen one woman, one relationship, at a time but it's not going to happen if we just tell them to "stop doing that".

[Ripley]

19. Yeah. I just saw a post in LBN about the Runaway Bride being

invited to do Playboy (slobber, slobber) and the reply was, thank God for airbrush.

Funny how some people continue to post that women's issues, such as low self-esteem, anorexia, wage gap, etc. are the fault of ...wait for it...

THE WOMEN THEMSELVES!!

Not that I am saying females don't have a huge amount of responsibility for their own behavior and should hold other females accountable who enable the sexism and misogyny to continue.

But to blithely suggest that teenagers/young women are to blame for the saturation of anorexic, porn star make-up and clothing images that are everywhere in our society is bullshit.

Who owns those magazines, music production companies and who photographs those women? Gee, maybe those men have something to do with determining what is attractive and what is not.

[Finder]

20. Well...

Some women own these magazines, music companies and many are photographers, so again--it is not all men perpetuating it.

Blaming society is still blaming the female half of society along with the male.

[Ripley]

23. So the woman who owns Cosmo magazine is good?

She's part of the problem. And yes Helen whatever her name is has made a fortune off of helping stereotype what a "woman's magazine" should be and what "women want."

Yes, I know I blame women as well as men for promoting unattainable body ideals and absurd high-priorities for women to spend their mental and emotional capital on. I.e. make-up, clothes, gossip, obsession with their tape measurer and scales.

If you don't think women can perpetuate what "men want" at the detriment and backsliding of women's rights, maybe you haven't been paying attention to that gal who gets so much air time on TV. Perhaps you've heard of Ann Coulter?

Why do you find "society" blameless for some of women's issues? Do you also find "society" blameless for people's unhealthy obsession with celebrity information to the point of that blather drowning out news about the Iraq War and corruption in the White House?

[Finder]

27. Women are half of society....

I don't hold society blameless at all. We all choose what to spend our mental and emotional capital on and I find some things too ridiculous to give the time of day.

[Ripley]

28. Are women HALF OF...

The CEO's and Board of Directors of all major news, entertainment, music, clothing, fashion, make-up, etc. corporations and governmental institutions?

Are they even 1/3 of those in charge? How about the porn industry or strip clubs...do women own half of those?

"Society" in America today equals the big corporations that control 95% of what people see, hear, consume and buy.

I never said women can't determine what is ridiculous and what is not. But in case you haven't read the other threads in this forum women see their opportunities and acceptability being turned back from any advances made for women.

[Finder]

30. A bit unfair to redefine the term "society"

I do agree there are not enough women in those industries and I do blame that on the inequality of opportunity or "glass ceiling."

As far as consumersism...as long as there is a demand, there will be a supply.

[Ripley]

43. This is getting close to the last time I will indulge you.

I defined "society" in the context of how it affects women and their appearance.

Why is glass ceiling in your post in quotation marks?

[Finder]

44. because...

it is the well known term for inequality of opportunity that exists in business. Surely you have heard that term.

[lukasahero]

24. I agree, women do have responsibility for their own behavior

We also have the responsibility of supporting other women to help them reach their goals. Heck, we need to help them define their goals hopefully by coming up with ways to broaden their options and, probably more truthfully, broaden their view and understanding of their options.

It's a vicious circle - women's opportunities have historically been limited by their looks so a culture develops around that premise, women's views of themselves and their opportunities are shaped by that culture which continues to define and limit their opportunites that then supports the culture that developed around it. :crazy:

Speaking for myself, I don't read the magazines, I have never bought into the idea that my brains are less important than my looks and I have managed to meet with at least moderate success in my personal and professional life. I do have to admit, however, that I am probably what one would consider at least relatively attractive, I was born into a family situation that gave me certain priveleges (white, upper-middle class), not to mention the whole backstory of having a gender-neutral name and looking like a boy for most of my life as well so it would be irresponsible of me to use myself as an example of what one can do if they "simply put their mind to it". Many women don't have the same starting advantages I did.

I refuse to participate in the "crazy making cycle" that tells women what's wrong with them without acknowledging it's not "all their fault" and assumes that we all start out with the same opportunities and abilities to resolve our conditions.

[Ripley]

25. It is a very sad situation.

I usually don't wear make-up and never have worn any but minimal when I worked in high-profile jobs where I had to dress up. Yet, so many of the other women I have worked with (even at an auto plant!) told me it took them 45 minutes in the morning to do their make-up and hair. That shocked me and I know it is not uncommon.

I see some older women at the gym who have what looks like masks on their faces to go along with their fake boobs, weird-ass nails and blonde hair only found on young children. They look AWFUL! Why don't they figure it out by now?

Make-up is a huge extremely profitable industry. Just like porn, I don't want to take anyone's mascara away from them. :eyes: But to say that women just continue to spend a fortune of money and time on the fantasy of looking like a movie star is all because they have mental issues is false.

Yes, women are just as responsible for promoting these images as men, but why? Could it be that they themselves feel they MUST project so much sexuality in order to be liked, promoted, achieve success? And if so, I wonder where they get that idea? :eyes: Look at the current news headline...pretty girl missing in Aruba.

TV probably molds people's minds the most about what is expected of male/female looks/behavior. I don't watch TV much anymore, but I, like most Americans grew up on it. The majority of women are shown very thin with that groomed hair/make-up look, while men are rarely shown looking the "ideal" hunk. In fact other than the soaps, I can't think of one mainstream show recently that features an attractive, sexy man.

I don't know how to solve this. I thought things were getting better, but now I see Mother's forcing the most absurd stereotypes onto their little girls...make-up, sexy clothes for elementary school kids!

I just don't know why we seem to be going backwards..but it's happening across the spectrum. Backlash, or underground seepage by males I would guess is the root of this.

[geniph]

31. One thing in your post really stood out to me

"now I see Mother's forcing the most absurd stereotypes onto their little girls...make-up, sexy clothes for elementary school kids"

Why do you suppose it's mothers and not fathers? (I'm not challenging your assertion, I'm asking opinions of why that's more commonly done by mothers.)

My personal belief is that, as a society, we're really not all that far progressed beyond societies where women force foot-binding or genital mutilation on their daughters to make sure they're valuable commodities to men. We just have different rituals we force on our daughters, but some are equally as damaging. I know why the women feel they must do this (mind you, I don't agree with it, I just see the source) - they feel their daughters must compete equally with other girls for the resources held by men, and the way to do that is sexually. We still, societally, seem to have the mindset that men compete physically and economically, but women compete sexually and emotionally. Ick.

Ever heard a mother urge her not-yet-teenage daughter to "wear something that makes you look pretty instead of those sloppy jeans" or "don't eat that, don't you want to be skinny?" It makes me shudder. I don't hear those kinds of unthinking comments directed at boys anywhere near as often.

We are ourselves, still brainwashed, and so long as we are, we will continue to brainwash our children with the underlying assumption that girls are most valuable as sexual commodities.

[Ripley]

33. I said that from my personal observation of them shopping.

I've never seen a Dad with his daughter at the mall getting a "make-over" (where the girl is about 8).

Yes, brainwashed is a way to put it. The men who control the majority of companies who profit off of the beauty industry and the sex industry and do the hiring and firing in America have control over this issue.

When it's hard for mother's to find clothes that don't look risque for their young daughters, there is something very wrong in our culture.

And I can hear it coming now......the black or white exercise we must go through. :eyes: If I don't want my (hypothetical for me) daughter to wear a thong, red lipstick and a crop-top that says "cherries" at the age of 10 WELL HELL I must be one of those prudes who wants all girls to cover up and dress like the Mennonites.

[geniph]

53. Sexualizing young girls is DISGUSTING

You won't find me calling you a prude for not wanting to see "hot stuff" on thong-style panties for LITTLE GIRLS. Little girls should not be sexualized. Doing so gives me the creeps in the WORST way. I'm all for consenting adults doing whatever feels good to them that doesn't hurt anyone else, but the key words in that statement are CONSENTING and ADULTS.

Miniskirts, crop tops, and makeup for prepubescent or barely-pubescent girls makes me want to :puke:

[Finder]

21. Here lies the solution...

YOU STATE: "I wish I had the money to start a magazine or a center for women to come and actually learn ways to improve their self-esteem, learn that it doesn't revolve around their appearance. It's encouraging to see so many women here on this thread talk about empowering our daughters and ourselves to believe our worth is beyond our appearance. It's probably only going to happen one woman, one relationship, at a time but it's not going to happen if we just tell them to "stop doing that"."


I think it is great reading how we all do our part and what other aspects of society we need to concentrate on. There are magazines, books and centers out there to assist us on our journeys but as you can see, there is so much disagreement in philosophy between women that infighting constantly limits the power of these organizations/groups.

There are women that exist that are not held captive to what society thinks or whether they meet the fashion standards of the day that have found ways to succeed in spite of "society". Shouldn't they be heard? Can't they offer perspectives they found to work at solving the problems that faced them on their journey?

[lukasahero]

22. "Can't they offer perspectives they found to work"

"at solving the problems that faced them on their journey?" Sure they can. Please do. Again, stating the goal to work for is not the same thing as suggesting steps one can take to reach that goal.

You said you believed women's self-esteem was the problem and that physical and mental health were the solution. I counter that this isn't a solution so much as an end result. So how do we get there?

[Finder]

26. Something to "strive" for --not a solution.

I believe that was the context I used.

There are no broad brush solutions since so many factors are involved. We must all define what holds us back or stops us from moving forward and one by one remove those obstacles.
As women, we have more obstacles than males. Each woman will have her own obstacles(some self-constructed)to toss before we can remove the ones that affect us as a gender. It depends on the individual's goals too. We all have different places we want to go or be.

I am not dismissing self-esteem but fact is not all women have low self-esteem. I can't imagine giving a hoot about whether I look like the model on the cover of a mag or making my self sick because I don't. If the government was to say all women had to look a certain way then you can bet your ass I would give a hoot but it is all a choice at this point.

[lukasahero]

38. You may not be affected by the images in the media but if so,

you may be in the minority. Here's an interesting statistic I found while perusing NOW's website and their survey on body image.

"3. Do you think that images of women/girls in the media have a direct result on how women/girls feel about and take care of themselves?
A) Absolutely 91.4%
B) Somewhat 8.6%
C) No 0% "

http://loveyourbody.nowfoundation.org/091704survey.html

"Each woman will have her own obstacles(some self-constructed)to toss before we can remove the ones that affect us as a gender."
I guess I get the impression that you think it's all up to each individual woman to fix her own problems. Does that mean you don't believe women face obstacles as a group or that they can't be resolved as a group?

[Ripley]

40. But people can look at the same data and come up with different results...

I think that poll must mean that women and girls really believe that images of them in the media don't affect how they feel about and take care of themselves.

:sarcasm:

Of course, NOW couldn't possibly conduct a survey that included all women's viewpoints. But, the Heritage Foundation could.

On edit: I went to the Heritage Foundation and look what came up when I typed in "women" in their search field.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Family/hl880.cfm

Just a few tidbidts from their praise of the Promise Keepers...

snip>>

"The primary cause of this national crisis, that is the decline of the family, is the feminization of the American male. The first thing you need to do is sit down with your wife and say something like this: “Honey, I’ve made a terrible mistake. I’ve given you my role. I gave up leading this family, and I forced you to take my place. Now I must reclaim that role. Don’t misunderstand what I am saying here. I’m not suggesting that you ask to be given your role back. I’m urging you to take it back.”

This is gonna take a new thread, I don't really have the time right now, but DAMN.

[Finder]

42. Now that pisses me off....

and groups like the PKers and their cohorts need to be exposed for what they are.

[Finder]

41. Our gender definitely faces obstacles...

and I stated that. The link you sent offers solutions to combat the problems which I agree with--Don't buy the products that use sexist ads or the mags that feed the insecurities, etc...

I think there are tons of things we can do as a group for the equality of women as a whole, but we also--as someone said--need to work on one relationship at a time and one person at a time--re:daughters, friends, etc...

[geniph]

29. You hit on something that's a sore point for me

You mentioned that thread in the "women's world" group "for women over a certain age." Reading that thread was the first, and last, time I've ever even been into that group. That thread offended the living bejesus out of me. I'm 45, and what I wear and how I behave is MY business. Anyone who doesn't like it is perfectly free to kiss my trim white ass.

How DARE anyone presume to tell me that I can no longer wear a short skirt, or low-rise jeans, or piercings, because I'm 45? How stupid. How childish.

[Finder]

32. Darn, now I have to check out that thread...

I am over 40 and still wear clothes I wore in high school. Funny how it is other women doing all the judging...

[Ripley]

34. You sure don't sound like a member of NOW.

Considering half your posts are digs at women.

[Finder]

35. You mean half don't agree with you, right?

I don't think NOW has an issue with women speaking their minds or disagreeing with others in the community. You may have the Freeper and NOW rules mixed up.

Why do you take any discussion on a sensitive subject to be a dig?

[shaman]

45. reaction

I'm a lurker and I've been paying attention to patterns in the threads, not necessarily the content.

Maybe the first consideration for a solution/thing to work on, would be to see how we each go into reaction over certain subject matter. It's pretty easy for me to see when someone's firing up some personal hostiity or resistance over something. I'm sure everyone here can see it too.

Maybe begin all our responses with "I'm in reaction now..." and continue typing whatever you feel like saying. Step one is not to change anything, just to observe what we're doing.

[Ripley]

46. Weak deflection.

Yeah, me, Ripley the Freeper. Everyone here would back you up in that assertion that I have lost my way between the Freeper rules (don't pee on yourself) and NOW rules (don't know of any), and I am a mixed up person.

You, on the other hand, are the bestest, brightest most feministic person ever because you start threads here about Mary Daly and never give anyone an answer as to what you think about Mary Daly.

[Finder]

47. I don't understand...

what your problem is with me. First of all, I surely did answer what I thought of Mary Daly. Second, I in no way was referring you were freeperish, only that the comment that I did not seem like a NOW member seemed to allude one must follow a set of rules or act a certain way.

I post here to have discussions and occasionally debate, NOT to be followed around and have to defend every opinion or observation I state. Feel free though, if you have nothing better to do.

[lukasahero]

39. I had the same reaction

I was really surprised to see a few people cheering her on. It struck me as oddly contradictory - "women over 40 are great, powerful and wonderful (just so long as they act and dress the way I think they should.)" Left me shaking my head for days. :-)

PS - I'm also over 40 and will wear my god-damn shorts anywhere I frickin' please thank you, Ms. Cash. :mad:

[geniph]

54. Right ON, lukashero

I'll wear my GD shorts, miniskirts, and crop tops as long as they make ME feel good. I'll keep buying my clothes in the junior's department as long as those are the ones that fit me best. If Ms. Cash or someone else finds that repulsive because I'm *gasp* an antique crone of 45 (who happens to still look pretty damned good, thankyouverymuch!), they can just piss off and not look.

[Eloriel]

5. I was just responding to the make-up and high heels thread

I spend time actively looking at women of all types, ages, colors, shapes, etc., and appreciating their innate beauty. The ones I find most "beautiful" are those who are comfortable in their own skin and/or those whose faces show considerable depth of some type. Warmth, compassion, strength, wisdom, good humor, etc., etc. I've seen so many different wonderful qualities in women.

At the same time, I'm just coming out of a period where I basically didn't give a damn how I looked, and I can say without any reservation whatsoever (at least for me): that's not all that healthy. It wasn't self-caring, either. In fact, there may have been something of the self-punishing in it, LOL, along with a lot of "too much trouble!"

Mine is not an over preoccupation, nor an obsession, nor really much of a vanity thing but more a simple self-respect and self-care thing. "I care enough about myself to put on a moderate but nice outfit and fix my face so I can make a nice presentation for whatever it is I'm leaving the house for."

I absolutely don't think it makes me less of a feminist. The only ones I worry about are those for whom beauty, make-up, clothes, etc. are an obsession or nearly so and who can't get beyond society's stereotypical standards for beauty.

[VelmaD]

9. But why should we as women...

have to "fix our face" to be presentable. Men don't have to. Their naked faces are considered perfectly fine for any occasion.

[geniph]

17. I don't

If I paint my face for special occasions, it's because I think it's fun. I most assuredly do not wear makeup to work on a daily basis, or to go to the grocery store. I've been stubborn about wearing regular makeup for some years; I'll start wearing daily lipstick and mascara when my male coworkers do.

[Lisa0825]

36. Actually...

I had a conversation with a group of men once, and three of them said that women were "lucky" because it was socially acceptable for them to wear makeup!LOL! They said if they get zits or have uneven skin tone or dark circles, they just have to live with it, but women can do something about it.

Personally, I like wearing makeup. I think I look more attractive with it, and I like to look attractive. But I appreciate the beauty of those who choose the natural look as well.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

37. Have you ever seen a man who REALLY doesn't care how he looks?

They not only look like hell, you can usually smell them at 100 yards.

Personally, I would be very wary if my blind date showed up with a dirty polo shirt, a scraggly beard, and a greasy comb-over. (And yes, this has happened to me.) If a man can't keep himself and his clothes clean and neat, there's something wrong with his mental functioning or his attitude.

I don't like muscle men or blow-dried anchorman types, but cleanliness and clothes that more or less go together improve anyone's looks.

[Hello_Kitty]

51. Thank you

That has happened to me more times than I can count. I don't necessarily get totally dolled up for a date but I'd never show up in sweats and flip flops with dirty hair either.

I'm also so tired of being told to overlook a guy's shabby appearance in favor of his good qualities. Yeah, I'll do that as soon as they return the favor. We're expected to be nice, funny, smart, AND attractively turned out. We manage to pull it off so why can't they?

[geniph]

55. A friend of mine used to have a poster at work

It had "What we're looking for" with a picture of some hot half-dressed bodybuilder type guy, and "What's looking for us" with a picture of a balding, potbellied, grubby-looking fellow in a Speedo. It was AMAZING (and very instructive) to see the reactions of the guys around us to that picture. Every one of the guys who thought that poster was funny, and who could admit that there was some fundamental truth to it, ended up being a pretty decent guy. Every one of the guys who railed about how horrid that poster was ended up being a sexist, clueless (not to mention incompetent) fuckwit.

I married one of the former. ;-)

[Hello_Kitty]

6. It does seem like you can't escape it

Whether you fit the image or not, your looks can always be used against you. I remember reading Howard Stern's book Private Parts years ago. There was a section where he was ripping into Cindy Crawford for saying something negative about him in the press. I don't remember the exact quote but it was something to the effect of who would care about a legless, titless, toothless Cindy Crawford and how when she's old she'll be irrelevent. Now, this book came out in the early 90s when, as I'm sure most of us recall, she was considered the pinnacle of beauty. When even someone like that can't escape being trivialized because of her current appearance nor from having her future looks slammed by a bully like Stern, you know we're all doomed.

[Gelliebeans]

7. I really hope so.

I think we were so conditioned by society to be as attractive as we can in order to achieve a higher place in society. Thankfully I think this is evolving in part because we are telling our daughters that they can master whatever goal they set out for themselves without the unnecessary burden of being "perfect" in their looks.

I do like to feel pretty on the outside occasionally. If I could only master that feeling of being pretty without the garb then I'd be home free. lol.

[lukasahero]

11. I'm not sure that's really what we're telling our daughters though

Some of us are but the increase in anorexia and bulemia affecting girls as young as 8 and 9 years old belies that it's working. What are we really telling them with the fashions being marketed to girls that young or the fashion and make-up magazines that that are marketed to girls just slightly older?

What about the sex-ed report that came out and found that the text books being used (TODAY!) in these classes actually relate a story that suggests the "pretty princess" should keep her mouth shut lest she run the risk of offending the handsome prince's delicate ego and choose the lowly farm maiden instead of her?

I was taught by my parents when I was raised in the 60's to believe I could do anything. How can it be that 40 years later we still have to "tell" this to our daughters because they don't "live" in a world in which it's true?

(PS - I think I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Sorry for the rant.)

[Gelliebeans]

16. point well taken

I have to say that I am in agreement with you, we are still a long way off from being where we should be but we are becoming more aware and that IMO is progress even if it is small. (don't mind me, I am working on my optimism lately);)

As to telling our daughters that they are equal in all rites it is the parents positive message that is in competition with society's message being blasted through our corrupt media. It's a conflict and we as parents are losing out to MTV and the likes.

I don't doubt that our girls and boys for that matter still suffer from bulimia and anorexia but I wonder if the statistics reflect public awareness that wasn't available 20 years ago that is available now? By that I mean we now understand more regarding eating disorders and we as parents, doctors and teachers are more acute to the early warning signs.

Please don't get me wrong I don't think we have reached any acceptable level but I do think generational rules will have an impact albeit slow.

Hope your day gets better lukasahero :hug:

[atommom]

10. The sad thing is that so many women perpetuate this without

thinking. I have one old friend (who I don't see often anymore) who is tremendously funny, but her humor revolves mostly around other women's looks. (Which made the humor not so tremendous after awhile...)

And it seems that we just can't get away from it. I was reading a non-political board last night, and a disruptor posted to say there was evidence that the women pursuing that particular hobby averaged 100-150 pounds overweight. Apparently one of the women had disagreed with him about something, and that was the best comeback he could think of. :eyes: I was relieved to see that everyone there just laughed at him.

[Warpy]

13. Here's the all purpose comeback whenever a women in power

is raked over the coals because she's overweight, over 40, or dowdy:

"She's the way god made her, and if it's good enough for god, why isn't it good enough for you?"

When somebody criticises ME, my comeback is "Hell, I don't have to look at it. That's YOUR problem."

Both comebacks make the complainers stop and think for at least a nanosecond before the programming takes over again. Build enough of those nanoseconds up, and we might start changing viewpoints.

[Finder]

14. Raking...

I can't even imagine giving someone the benefit of my attention who would criticize someone on those points.

[trotsky]

15. It's not nearly as bad for men, but it's getting worse.

Being tall, having a good physique, being good-looking, etc. can definitely influence a man's career as well. I remember reading about a study not long ago showing that men who were taller than their peers tended to earn more than colleagues doing the exact same job.

Society's prejudices affect everyone - women just bear a lot more of it!

[Hello_Kitty]

48. Yeah, I think that study showed that good-looking men do BETTER

Than even good-looking women, since some managers are actually reluctant to hire a pretty woman for fear that she'll be "distracting". Also, I don't know if it was within the same research, but I recall a surprisingly high percentage of men admitting to using their sex appeal to get ahead on the job. The tall thing is definitely true. I work for a HUGE (hint: Pentium Processors) company and I've noticed that most of the males in upper management are fairly good looking, athletic, and tall. Oh yeah, and most of them have all their hair.

[trotsky]

49. Oh yeah, "executive hair"! How could I have forgotten?

:)

Based on your hint, do you get to wear colored clean suits and dance around to disco music at work?

[Hello_Kitty]

50. Ha ha!

No, the suits are white but we do have music in the factory now. The fabs in Israel started piping it in and found that productivity and morale improved and the idea was exported to the others. So you do actually see some of us "bunny suiters" grooving along to the beat now!

And the disparity between the appearance of managers and rank and file in the company is amazing. Engineers and computer geeks of either gender are not exactly known for devoting a lot of attention to their looks and personal style. But senior managers, different story. Guys who look like George Clooney and size 2 women in designer suits.

[noamnety]

52. Yep, I've seen the same stuff against men in the lounge

There was a post in particular a few days back that appalled me - a photo of someone (probably famous, but I didn't recognize him. He looked like a normal person. But the purpose of the thread was too point out how "scary" he looked because he didn't wax his eyebrows.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=3440816