Is it a wedding or a coronation...?

[bliss_eternal]

:shrug:

Sincerely curious for thoughts on this.

When did the "tiara" become a part of women's wedding attire?
...and why?

Do you like it, love it, hate it--ambivalent about it?

examples:

http://www.princessbridetiaras.com/

http://www.bridalguide.com/default.cfm?fuseaction=misc_content&bridal_file=1&jwp=2050

(see magazine cover, sorry it's kinda' small).

[Katherine Brengle]

1. In for a buck, in for a quarter.

Might as well look however you want to look when you do it, right? I don't know... I'm married, so I don't have any authority to go into an anti-marriage rant, but once you've decided to do this in your life, I say wear whatever you like.

It's sort of silly and ridiculous, but so are a lot of things.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WildClarySage]

3. We did do the private ceremony at city hall thing, and I'm so glad

that we didn't buy into the whole wedding start-your-life-together-by-going-deeply-in-debt! This was my way of avoiding all those 'property' things in weddings, like being 'given away' and promising to obey.

I do wish, though, that he'd promised to obey me. Woulda made things soooo much easier around here! :evilgrin:

[Katherine Brengle]

7. What could someone have possibly said to my reply that would need to be

deleted?

I am thoroughly confused.

[bliss_eternal]

9. It was my post.

I wanted to alter my response but it was after the editing period, so I requested the deletion.

Thanks mods. :)

[Katherine Brengle]

10. Ah, thanks :)

I was confused :)

[bliss_eternal]

12. I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to confuse you. :)

[Ellen Forradalom]

4. There's this whole "princess" thing going on in our culture

right now, which I find baffling.

[bliss_eternal]

5. Thank you.

I've also noticed this, and I'm also baffled by it. Especially since it seems to also be encompassing women, and not just little girls playing dress up.

I think I heard or saw something about a "princess" reality show--where women competed for an opportunity to be a princess. :shrug:

There were at least a few princess films(young girl discovers she's rich/royal), in addition to the usual fairy tale fare revamped and re-released by Disney (i.e. Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Cinderella, etc.). The increased media attention on Paris Hilton (as an heiress) probably has something to do with it, too.

[Ellen Forradalom]

6. Google "princess culture"

for some really interesting reading.

[bliss_eternal]

8. Good idea...!

Thanks for the suggestion--I'll do that! :hi:

[lizerdbits]

11. I don't really understand it

and I'm not married. Interesting post as a coworker is "pre engaged" or some strange thing while she waits for her ring that's she's been asking for for a while. She's starting to think about planning a wedding which always seemed like a nightmare to me. If I ever do the marriage thing I'll go with JOP and jeans. I'll pass on a ring, I just don't wear them that much.

[bliss_eternal]

17. There's a "pre-engagement'...?

Wow--this sounds interesting. I haven't heard of this before.

You're right about the wedding planning thing, though--it's a nightmare or at least it can be. It doesn't have to be, but frequently is. Some people seem to enjoy it, though. :shrug:

[lizerdbits]

20. I've heard of these 'pre engagements' before

In this case she's picked a ring and he's going to buy it so I guess it's not official until she gets it. I'm not sure if that's what it means in all cases.

[bliss_eternal]

26. I wonder if this is what "promise rings" are for...?

...or something like this? I just remembered hearing about promise rings. I wasn't really sure what they were for, though.

[knitter4democracy]

13. Both the bride and the groom wear crowns in our church.

It's an Eastern Orthodox tradition referring to them being crowned in glory in joining together as a smaller symbol of Christ's relationship with the Church.

They don't look like tiaras, though.

[bliss_eternal]

16. That sounds cool...!

...also sounds like there's a sense of equality because both are crowned during the ceremony. I like that. :thumbsup:
Thanks for sharing this!

[knitter4democracy]

18. The guys don't tend to like them, as they look a bit girly.

Still, I think they're cool. This site has this set that's pretty.

http://www.portara.com/cgi-bin/products_detail.cfm?ProductID=1394

[bliss_eternal]

36. lol. All the more reason they "should" wear them...

...to kind of embrace their feminine side for the day. ;)

Thank you for the link, that set is very pretty! The bead work is gorgeous.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

14. It's aggravating that getting the magical "ring" is still the highest aspiration for a woman

I keep thinking back to Susan Faludi's Backlash, where she described how anxiety about newly empowered women sloughing off matrimony spawned all sorts of weird things, like this creepy bride cult. That, and the bizarre panic over the 'man shortage'. I guess you could call me pretty neutral about it, ultimately. I mean, I completely understand why women get caught up in it, having grown up female in this country it's pretty hard to miss. I'm just glad I personally abstained from it.

[bliss_eternal]

15. Yeah--what's up with that...?

...the ring? Gotta get the ring! LOL! Wasn't that book The Rules built around that entire obsession--getting the ring?

Oh and thank you for the book reference, sounds like something I need to read. :)

The obsession with "the ring" and the magical thinking that goes with that are such great points.
I recall hearing a psychologist (don't recall her name)that wrote a book specifically addressing the aftermath. How the focus is on getting the ring(engagement), then the planning for "the day", the ceremony, reception, then a honeymoon. She said frequently women find they have this huge let down after it's all done and a sense of "now what?" Many become depressed because they haven't thought about life beyond "the ring, the day and the honeymoon."

No one seems to talk about this, so it was interesting to listen to her describe some of her client's experiences with this.

[knitter4democracy]

19. Hubby's sister's getting married next summer. She's all caught up in that crap.

MIL actually asked Hubby if he'd cosign on the engagement ring since the fiance was having trouble getting the loan. Seriously. :eyes:

I don't get all that wedding stuff. I remember feeling so frustrated during the build-up to ours--I didn't want all that stuff but kept losing the arguments. I didn't want the big, fancy wedding, but I kept getting overruled. Since I wasn't paying for it, I didn't have a choice unless we'd been okay with eloping. *sigh* Watching SIL just dredges up all that frustration.

[Katherine Brengle]

22. A LOAN???

I am absolutely flabbergasted. I think my engagement ring cost about $300 and I was slightly livid over it. I didn't even want a ring, and I definitely didn't want a ridiculously overpriced one.

I met a young woman the other night (friend of a friend) who was showing around her "wedding portraits" - pictures taken of her and her fiance months before the wedding (because having one's photo taken on one's wedding day is too stressful apparently) - TEN THOUSAND FREAKING DOLLARS. And they still have photos taken the day of...

I wanted to vomit, or shake her, but I couldn't.

[knitter4democracy]

24. We were, too.

We used a family ring for mine because there's no way Hubby could have afforded much at all, not that I needed anything, really. Heck, what's wrong with a stainless steel claddagh ring from Target or whatever?

I've never understood his family, and weddings always make that freakin' obvious. *sigh*

[Ellen Forradalom]

46. I passed on the engagement ring.

We talked about it. I said, "Well, we bought property together and are having a baby. A ring ain't gonna prove much on top of that. Save your money."

We got inexpensive gold bands from a downtown jeweler.

The wedding itself took 6 weeks to plan and cost a couple of grand. It was delightful occasion.

Too bad the marriage itself is going somewhat awry. I do remain quite fond of my husband, despite the troubles.

[bliss_eternal]

48. Good for you, passing on "the ring."

:hug: I'm sorry to hear of your marital issues.
Hoping the best for you!

[Ellen Forradalom]

52. Well, and I USE my hands

I type, knit, garden, do sports, all sorts of things where a rock jutting from my hand would be a nuisance.

[Katherine Brengle]

54. I hear that -- I have to take mine off all the time to do things

and it's small. It still gets in the way.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

23. Is it any wonder this country is swimming in debt and anxiety?

This keeping up with the Jones stuff looks like a pain in the ass, I tell ya. First, you have to have a big honkin' froo froo wedding. Then you must join the Cult of the McMansion. Then it's the SUV because gawd forbid you should be seen in a dowdy station wagon or minivan. Then your progeny must have the latest and greatest kiddiecrap. Of course, Princess Jr. has to have a Sweet Sixteen, prom, and the requisite boobjob and wardrobe full of hoochie attire with writing across the butt so that she may capture the coveted ring and perpetuate the cycle anew.

Yet another reason to thank my lucky stars I was introduced to feminism at a relatively early age.

[knitter4democracy]

25. That's exactly it. The whole wedding culture crap isn't all by itself.

It's a part of the rest of our consumerist culture, unfortunately. There's no way in hell we'll be spending on the reception for our daughter what FIL and MIL are spending--I refuse. The reception's not worth $100 a head. No way.

[bliss_eternal]

28. You're so fortunate.

I wish I was introduced to feminism at a young age.

Great rant, btw!

[mrreowwr_kittty]

29. I haven't always heeded the wisdom

But I can say that I read The Female Eunich when I was 12. It blew my mind. I went through a period (doesn't everyone?) of trying to be a man-appeasing fembot. There are definitely tangible social rewards for going along to get along, especially when you are young and conventionally pretty. Plus I figured I could 'subvert the paradigm from within' or something. I couldn't pull it off so I decided to go back to my true self. Once you go feminist you can't go back.

[bliss_eternal]

30. Beauty can be such a trap.

If a young lady doesn't get caught in it at some point in her life, it's kind of miraculous (in my opinion). Been there, done that. ;)

Beauty (and not brains) for women are seen as a commodity.
We've all seen the pretty girls that are told early, "you should model." Some focus on that and little else.
I wish more young girls were encouraged regarding their "brain" potential, and not immediately sent off to the big city for acting and modeling careers.

On edit--thank you for ANOTHER book to add to my list! :bounce:

[lizerdbits]

39. I've always been glad I wasn't "hot" when I was younger

As a teenager I tried but I just didn't have that tiny physique and was just kind of dorky. Once I got a couple years into college I found that friends and microbiology were more rewarding. There was one guy I had dated who I was hung up on for a while and would still try to please when I saw him (I transferred colleges so it was infrequent)- quick weight loss, nicer clothes. My mom has been a feminist since before I was born and she passed it on. She probably assumed I'd grow out of the male-pleasing phase and I'm glad I did. It's so much more relaxing to not give a shit. Had I been popular/tiny at some point maybe I would be made of plastic and silicone now still trying to please some man I did everything I could to get a mega ring from.

[Ellen Forradalom]

53. I was raised by an old-school bluestocking

This mindset is utterly alien to me.

[bliss_eternal]

27. Hi knitter--without boring everyone w/all the details...

...I could have wrote what you did, EXACTLY. So my heart goes out to you, and I'm very sorry you went through that. :hug: I can see how another family wedding would bring up some ptsd issues.

Like you, I didn't get any of it. I'm a simple person and not into fuss, big events or shows.

To give you a bit of an idea--she paid (insisted on it in fact). Had I known then, what was involved in her insistence(and paying)...I would have politely declined. I was told I could ask five of my friends to MY shower. Most in attendance were HER friends--and I didn't know them at all. :eyes: The wedding--her guests were priority invites, ours secondary.

The sad blessing of the whole thing is it helped bring my husband and I closer together. It also served as the first of several events that forced him to "see" them (family)in a different light. He has since severed ties to them.

[knitter4democracy]

40. It sounds like we could have a nice chat.

;)

MIL is a piece of work, and all the wedding prep was just a hint for what I was getting myself into. Thank goodness Hubby and I are still totally in love or I would've fled that whole mess a long time ago.

The baby shower was interesting. In fact, her responses to both of our children during pregnancy were interesting. *sigh* I should write a book . . .

[bliss_eternal]

47. Definitely...!

LOL! The more you say, the more it sounds eerily familiar.

The wedding prep was totally indicative of deeper issues--mil, their family and extended family (friends). Mil is a bigot, control freak and religious hypocrite with major boundary issues. You know, one of those people that just doesn't get it when someone attempts to say no or create some space. The saying,"...you give someone an inch and they'll take a mile" was created about her.

I'm just so glad to hear that it hasn't affected your relationship with your husband at all. That's so great! There's so many situations where couples are torn apart by dysfunctional in-laws.

I had to sit on my hands (so to speak) and hold my tongue and allow my husband to see it for himself. Didn't take long. They all showed their true colors and dh got sick of their crap. He saw them for the jerks they are, and walked. :bounce: Our life together is all the better for it!

[knitter4democracy]

55. Hmm, that "bigot, control freak, and hypocrite" thing sounds familiar.

Yup to all three. She's mellowed a bit with age and bad health, but it's still all there under it all.

It has negatively affected our relationship, but we're still together. We had a nasty fight this summer over her and Hubby not sticking to the boundaries, and part of it was what an awful person I was for thinking she'd ask us to help with the wedding costs for his sister. Then she asked him to help with the ring loan. I think that opened his eyes again. I don't think it'll last, though, since he was always the good son growing up and has an amazing capacity for denial and blindness to the issue.

So, I talk with my mom and sit on my hands a decent amount, just waiting until I'm proved right again, a whole lot of the time. Very annoying. I know Hubby could never sever all of his ties with his family and don't want him to (it would not be a good thing for him--he needs that connection), but I sure wish he'd trust me more and stick to our agree-upon boundaries.

[bliss_eternal]

58. I know it's hard.

:hug: ...it was for me.

I got to the point where I refused to be around the (her or his sibs). Bunch of sick tickets the lot of them.
MIL is such a piece of work. To give you an idea--dh was car jacked (thankfully not hurt)and the most she could muster was,"...it could have been worse." :eyes: I wish I was kidding.

That (in addition to other equally "classy acts" on her part), was at least her third strike. lol. So I bowed out and said little, while he cont'd. to deal w/them (a bit longer).

Thankfully, he decided to walk away from them on his own, when he'd had enough.

It's really hard when one grows up with it. It's all conditioning. They've been taught to believe that's what they deserve--and that's all there is. Especially w/society's messages about "family." :eyes: One can have a family w/out blood relatives.

You're doing the right thing, by saying little and staying out of it. Though if you and he agreed to certain limits, perhaps there's a way you can inquire if the boundary has been renegI don't see anything wrong with a gentle reminder about boundaries if you and he agreed to certain limits. The less you say, the better. He has to see it himself.

[Chovexani]

34. One ring to rule them all, and in the darkness bind them

What, me cynical? :tinfoilhat:

[wicket]

21. I just added that book to my wish list

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[bliss_eternal]

32. A woman I know actually uttered the words "old maid"

...in reference to herself once. :wow:
Oh and she was barely 30 at the time.

Do I need to tell you that in spite of having a great career, with an advanced degree and her own home she was absolutely obsessed with "the ring", "the man", etc? I won't bore anyone with details of the bullies, losers and absolute peons she was willing to settle for--thinking they were her "last chance" at a walk down the aisle.

She's getting married next year with a veil AND a tiara, btw.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

33. Oh, ick!

I kinda like tiaras but would never wear one in earnest.

[bliss_eternal]

35. I'm not understanding...

...how she's going to wear both. :shrug:

One or the other--I can visualize, no problem. I'm having trouble seeing how the two will work together. Is the tiara used to hold the veil down? Or Is the veil used to accent the tiara? Will she try for an actual royal look(ie. Charles and Diana in the 80's) with the tiara elegantly peeking out beneath the veil?

I'm sincerely confused.

[knitter4democracy]

41. Oh my. Poor thing. She's bought into the lie.

If you're not happy with yourself, you won't be happy married.

[bliss_eternal]

50. I agree.

I'm hoping the best for her.

Her mom means well--is a very nice person, but not entirely of the "empowered" mindset if you know what I mean. As one that was brought up during the times when women were wives, mothers, teachers or nurses...she just doesn't have a lot to offer her daughter in that sense. So I'm guessing some of her ideas (and "old maid" talk) came from this background.

[bliss_eternal]

31. GAG ALERT !!!! on googling "princess culture"....

...I found the following article.

***Warning--this woman takes her princess culture seriously.****

In Defense of Princesses
By Pauline Millard, Jan 3, 2007The rise of Princess culture in little girls should be embraced, not frowned upon.

Recently, the New York Times ran an essay by Peggy Orenstein about how she felt that the Princess culture currently consuming toy stores, and little girls’ minds, is retroactive and damaging. This is coming from a woman who has spent most of her career railing against everything that society is doing wrong to girls, which is likely just a projection of some wrongs that were done to her, and now she feels the need to avenge it. Whatever. Taking on Disney products, specifically princesses, isn’t only an exercise in futility, but these little dolls are actually an important part of the female experience.

Earth to Orenstein: Princesses are nothing new. Since Grimm’s fairy tales were written in the early 1800s, children have been reading about princes and princesses and far away lands. The stories are so universal that they often serve as a stepping stone into a further interest in reading. Who doesn’t remember first hearing the story of Cinderella or Rapunzel? Fairy tales are one of the few experiences that bridge generation gaps, not just from parent to child, but also grandparent to child and throughout the rest of the family tree.

Orenstein considers herself a feminist, which is why I found it curious she would take issue with little girls’ toys. Feminism is rooted in the collective, about working together as a whole, for the greater good. These collectives are meant for adults, but the skills needed to interact and work with people are learned as children, while playing. And what do little girls like to play with? You got it, princesses and dolls. If some renegade feminist mother decided to keep princesses away from her daughter, she ultimately hinders her daughter’s growth and development. Children may not care about adult frivolities such as money and status, but one common denominator they do understand is toys. If one girl has a Little Mermaid doll and another has a Snow White, great! They’re in business! They can play all afternoon and be best friends by dinnertime. If you forbid the girl from having the doll, and that common denominator with other girls, then you risk social isolation and far larger adjustment issues down the road.

------------------------------------snip--------------------------------------



excerpt from:
http://www.thesimon.com/magazine/articles/dispatches_nyc/01301_in_defense_princesses.html

[Katherine Brengle]

37. Are you freaking kidding me???

"nd what do little girls like to play with? You got it, princesses and dolls. If some renegade feminist mother decided to keep princesses away from her daughter, she ultimately hinders her daughter’s growth and development."

WHAT THE FUCK?

Little girls play with these things because these are the things they are told to play with. This writer has no grasp on logic whatsoever.

[Ellen Forradalom]

38. There's also the distinction between

the games and fantasies children come up with themselves, and those foisted upon them in the name of cultural expectations and, in Disney's case, making a greasy buck. It's one thing to play with a dolly, it's another to embrace a twisted worldview.

Oh and she misuses the word 'retroactive.' She means 'retrograde.'

[knitter4democracy]

42. I guess I'm hindering my daughter's growth and development, then.

We don't allow Disney princesses in the house. Fairies, yes, but not princesses. We'll read fairy tales with them in there, but we don't do Disney at home. She plays it at school, but that's it. Wow, I must be the worst mom in the world. :eyes:

[Ellen Forradalom]

45. Saying that keeping Disney princesshood from girls hinders their natural development

is like saying that not sticking a force-feeding tube down a goose's throat hinders the natural development of their livers.

[bliss_eternal]

49. LMAO!

:rofl:

[bliss_eternal]

51. You're saving a ton of money...!

...not buying that junk.

I feel sorry for the parents I see at Dizney stores and the resort.
You should see all that princess crap Dizney sells. It's ridiculous. The gowns, with matching crown and shoes, t-shirts, pajamas sets. Little storybooks w/dvd's, stickers, purses, it's absolutely endless and none of it is very good quality. I'd be surprised if the stuff last three months.

I don't know if Disney spawned the current culture(of princesses for girls and adult women), or if it's just part of the equation. But they've certainly cashed in on the trend and churned out a ton of crap to market to little girls.

At the resort, you're bound to see at least several little girls dressed as their favorite princess. Dizney now has meet and greets around the park where the little girls can go and get "the princesses" (Sleeping Beauty, Snow White, Cinderella, etc.)autographs and pose with them for pictures.

I knew someone that worked in casting. They told me they are absolutely mobbed with young women at the character auditions (for parts to walk around the parks as a princess for meet and greets, etc.). They said they get tons of calls from young hopefuls seeking a chance to be selected as a Dizney princess look-a-like.

:scared:

(Dizney purposely misspelled).

[knitter4democracy]

56. It sure is everywhere. It's as bad as Barbie and Bratz now.

We do some Disney, but it's fairly limited in our house. We do the new Fairies line, but after reading one of the books to my daughter, I decided they were a bit too adult for her (Tink and a guy fairy obviously flirting--it was like the intro in a Harlequin with the strong, silent type falling for the bossy gal). So, she has a couple of the dolls, and that's it.

She's more into American Girl now (I have a friend who gets them for charity and added one on for my daughter in a sale this summer so my daughter could save up and buy it on her own). I like their message a lot better.

[bliss_eternal]

57. I hadn't heard of the Fairies line,...

...or the stories. Is this relatively new?

Intro to Harlequin? :scared:
I bet that's not an accident. I know some women that seemed to get addicted to those things (romance novels). Interesting you should bring those up in this context, too. I feel romance novels are a continuation of all this (princess culture). The whole "someday my prince will come" thinking, and creating stories that suspend that belief for readers.

:puke:

[knitter4democracy]

59. It's new and not quite so popular.

They've come up with a whole set of friends for Tinkerbell and revamped her character. The friends are interesting, but I was totally creeped out by the love interest--they're marketing these for lower elementary kids, for crying out loud!

[lizerdbits]

43. I was supposed to like princesses?

I did have regular barbies but I also had Tonka trucks, race cars and trains. Good thing my parents didn't enforce gender stereotypes with toys because I still love trains. :)

I also feel pretty good in sweatpants but apparently I'm not supposed to. My old grey ones that are 10 years old are the best!

[Katherine Brengle]

44. Slouchy clothes just get better as they age --

all soft and smooth and worn... yum.