I have a sincere question about women in porn...

[bliss_eternal]

...I'm interested in your honest opinions on this.

After viewing The Notorious Bettie Page last night, I went googling and found this interview. I was struck by the suggestion (in the film) that Bettie Page was molested by her father as a child, and gang raped as a young adult. I wondered about this and whether the filmmaker was also suggesting this played a role in Bettie's participation in bondage modeling (a rather new and taboo issue in the 50's).

Excerpt from interview w/Susie Bright(SB) and Mary Harron(MH) regarding Bettie Page:

SB: You point a finger, without drawing a thick line, at her history of sexual abuse, incest, -- and her survival of sexual assault, a gang rape. How do you think women recover, sexually, from situations like that?

MH: The abuse by her father was the most damaging, because she was still a child. She was a traumatized person, but she did have an active sex life. Billy Neal, her first husband, told me they had a great sex life and I believe him-- it was clearly the motor in their relationship. Sexually abuse, or rape, is an awful trauma but it doesn't mean you will never enjoy sex-- although it may mean you become more sexually-identified, as the careers of countless porn stars will attest.

Many men who've seen the film complain that Bettie doesn't react much to the sexual abuse: she doesn't show more rage or grief. But most men have no idea how much sexual shit women go through, how many of their female friends, relatives, and co-workers have been raped or abused in some way. They don't know about it because the women don't talk about it, and just get on with their lives, as Bettie did.


SB: My own personal interpretation of Page's "naivete," and her various personalities as model, missionary, etc., is that she was genuinely crazy, and coping the best way anyone does when they are suffering from mental demons.

But if she had been homely and crazy, or even just plain, what would have happened then? So often it seems that sexual allure is both the salvation and damnation of people who need to be seen more deeply than the surface....

MH: If she had been homely, her mental problems would have been spotted earlier. The people I talked to who knew her in the Fifties all talked about how sweet, friendly, unassuming she was-- but at the same time, no one seemed to know her intimately.

Even her first husband, Billy Neal, found her a mystery. That suggests to me that she had sealed herself off: there was something blank and inaccessible about her. She was always late, often hours late, which implies that she would just space out.

Someone can be mentally ill, but if they are young and beautiful and their life is going well, people don't notice because at that point the cracks are almost imperceptible. I think it's significant that Bettie's breakdowns happened in her middle age.

There were a lot of things going wrong for her by then. Her fourth marriage had collapsed, and with it her hopes of happy family life. There were the demons from the past, her father's abuse and the gang rape. You can't discount the traumatic effects of aging. By now she was a middle-aged woman, and she had spent her whole adult life as a beauty. Her identity, her finances, her social life, her sense of herself: everything depended on that, and it was gone.

taken from:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/susie-bright/interview-the-bettie-pag_b_20492.html

********************************************************************

Ok, again, just seeking honest opinions here. How much of a role do you feel sexual assault, incest, rape, etc.(whether one remembers it or not) have on women working in the porn industry? Mental illness? How much and why? If not, why?

I've always been rather fascinated by this issue. I think stats are helpful, but most of the one's I've found are from the religious right. I don't trust them for information.

And yes, I'm aware that there are porn performers like Nina Hartley that say they were never raped or assaulted, they just dig what they do. This isn't about them. I'm interested in women like Bettie Page (or even J.Jameson who realized late in her career she was assaulted at a young age).

Oh, and I am sorry for creating yet another thread on this topic. I realize some of you may be burnt out on this topic, considering all the threads recently on the issue of porn.

Thanks in advance!

:hi:

[ThomCat]

1. I didn't know, but always assumed

that Bettie Page had probably been molested or raped.

I think, if we could survey every woman in porn we'd find that many of them have been molested or raped.

I think most men discount the possiblity because,

A. Rape is invisible to most men, or they see it as a fantasy instead of as a traumatic crime.

B. Men have a vested interest in not seeing the abuse that starts women on the path to porn. If they don't see it then they don't have to feel guilty.

C. When you're viewing porn, there is only the fantasy in your head, with no real reality behind it. They don't want to consider the reality. After all, we look at porn FOR the fantasy.

I think that interview confirms what I thought.

[bliss_eternal]

2. Men w/such ideas should be required to watch the rape scene

in this film in it's entirety.

Irreversible wikipedia entry:
It is further disclosed that Le Tenia raped Marcus's girlfriend Alex (Monica Bellucci). The rape takes place when Alex encounters Le Tenia beating a prostitute in a pedestrian underpass. This scene is filmed using a single, unbroken take, lasting nine minutes.

Film critic Roger Ebert has argued that the film's structure makes it inherently moral — that by presenting vengeance before the acts that inspire it, we are forced to process the vengeance first, and therefore think more deeply about its implications.<1>

Some have criticised the rape scene for its prolonged mixture of sex and violence. Noé deliberately chose to keep the camera static throughout the scene, to avoid the charge of having "eroticised" the attack.

Because of the rape scene and violent content Irréversible was limited to cinemas and tertiary film studies courses in New Zealand.

taken from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irr%C3%A9versible

More from Roger Ebert on the film (and the reverse chronology used in the movie):

As I said, for most people, unwatchable. Now consider what happens if you reverse the chronology, so that the film begins with shots of the body being removed from the night club and tracks back through time to the warm and playful romance of the bedroom scenes. There are several ways in which this technique produces a fundamentally different film: 1. The film doesn't build up to violence and sex as its payoff, as pornography would. It begins with its two violent scenes, showing us the very worst immediately and then tracking back into lives that are about to be forever altered.


http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20030314/REVIEWS/303140303/1023


I'd heard of the film, but not seen it. A documentary about sex in indie films on IFC showed a considerable amount of the rape scene. It was more than a little unsettling. I had to look away and only looked again when the sounds of the assault (screaming, grunting, crying, etc.) had stopped. It's incredibly violent (and realistic) view of rape. The woman is screaming, crying, trying (unsuccesfully) to get away. As much as I personally hated viewing it, I was pleased to see someone do this w/a fim, show rape as is--the horror and violence of it without eroticizing it. Though honestly, viewing it is so horrible I never want to see it again.

Regarding our Bettie Page discussion:

After reading this interview, I wonder how many other women just shut down--perhaps blocking out such life experiences not realizing it's a contributing factor in why they feel as they do about participating in such activities (porn, bondage modeling, centerfolds and pin-up modeling, etc.)?

:shrug:

[ThomCat]

3. I could never sit through that scene.

And I would not willingly see that movie. The idea of watching even a fake rape scene makes me feel a little ill.

Can you imagine being on the set to produce that scene? I'd be a wreck for a long time after that. :(

[bliss_eternal]

4. Same here!

Had it not been a part of the documentary I doubt I would have ever seen it. I tend to avoid movies that I know feature rape. (I saw Jodie Foster's The Accused many years after it's initial release. I avoided it for years).

I can't imagine being on set. I know it would give me ptsd. :scared:

Apparently even though it seems you are viewing it all at once, the director did at least three different takes of that moment. Monica Bellucci, the actress in the scene said she had more trouble with each consecutive scene, knowing what was coming, preparing for it while simultaneously trying to do her job and have a realistic response to it.

As a guy that is well-aware of the horror of rape, I'd never suggest you subject yourself to such a thing. But for the others, the ones that try to romanticize the notion of rape or say things like, "she wanted it." There's no way in hell any sane human being could watch this scene and ever say that again. No one would ever "want" what is shown in this scene. If anyone thought or said that, it would prove to me they have mental/emotional problems, and are a misogynist.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

6. thom most women i know have been sexually abused in one form or the other

(again i am from india, the capital of sexaul abuse).

my only problem with stating this as a problem about porn, is that it invalidates a womens right over her body. just because i have been raped or molested doesnt mean i dont know what i want to do with my body.

just a thought

[ThomCat]

7. I don't see how it invalidates anyone's right over their own bodies

to recognize that abuse might have played a role in influencing people's lives and decisions. :shrug:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

8. as a woman the biggest problem i face is to be taken seriously. in almost everything,

people try to pidgeonhole you for every decision.

you're a dyke, you must have been raped.

you are angry with this that or the other, well are you sure you are not over reacting?

etc

abuse influences people's decision as does a lack of choices and poverty. i find saying things that a woman did something because she was abused, to be invalidating of her choices or other restrictions (rich women get raped too, how many of them turn into porn stars?)

sorry if i am unclear, i didnt get any sleep at all yesterday. :cry:

[ThomCat]

9. I understand.

It's an influence, not an explanation.

[bliss_eternal]

11. Your posts are clear...

...and I appreciate your input, lioness. I hope you didn't think that just because you expressed a perspective different than those already expressed, that it was unwelcome. Not the case at all--I sincerely wanted to hear people's thoughts on this. But I did primarily want the feminist perspective.

We all know GD's stance on everything. :eyes:

[La Lioness Priyanka]

14. i tried to keep my feminist perspective broad

women have multiple oppressions and we need to be able to address them.

sex work has existed and will always exist. its not my place to judge/condemn women in sex work. its my place to fight for legislature that would ease their burden and let them make a 'free' choice.

:hi:

also i have never felt unwelcome her :hug:

[Samurai_Writer]

5. I absolutely believe most women in porn have been sexually abused

I was only on the fringes of the porn industry, being a lingerie and erotic model. But every model I knew, had been sexually abused or raped. Including me. It might not have been a conscious decision to become involved in the adult industry because of this previous trauma, but I'm sure unconsciously, it's a type of sexual acting out that is common when a woman is abused or raped. It's a way to 'take back' a woman's power, sexually, even if it is personally damaging to do so. Conversely, there's also women who act out sexually because they think "Well, if that's all men want, that's what I'm going to give them" type of attitude. It's a way to insulate themselves emotionally, to make sex mean nothing.

[bliss_eternal]

12. This is interesting...

...particularly your point of it being such an unconscious decision. I wonder how many of those that work in the field or even on the fringes of it, have such a split and are acting out unconsciously? Versus those that are aware and do it anyway?

Thank you for sharing and being so candid in your post. :hug:

[Book Lover]

15. That's interesting,

because my experience was exactly the opposite. I worked as the art director for about 4 years for a sex-oriented weekly - we had escorts in our office every day to place their ads. I got to know very many as acquaintances, and a half-dozen or so as good friends. None of my friends, nor either of the female columnists, nor the owner of the enterprise, a dominatrix, had been sexually abused or raped. I am *not* posting trying to negating your experience, just wanting to say that I had the exact opposite experience. I am sure there were people there I had met who had been so abused; I just never got that close to them. Maybe that says something right there.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

16. at what level of poverty/wealth were you dealing?

if you are dealing in the average street walker, you will find different issues than you will with well paid sex workers

[Book Lover]

17. Lower-middle to middle to upper class

As I said, these were escorts placing ads in a weekly; that indicates some level of business acumen, at least. Not all were well-paid, but some were (This is the SF Bay Area, so it's not like money goes really far here). On the other hand, we know that abuse happens at all socio-economic levels, for what that's worth...

[La Lioness Priyanka]

18. abuse occurs at all socioeconomic levels but i think sex workers

who are lower on the socioecomic scales have many more levels of oppression and oppressive influences than those with more choice.

this is not just my observation, i wrote several papers on sex work in college and had to do extensive research.

[Book Lover]

19. Then you certainly are more informed than I in that area

I'm curious - did you also happen to study this variable in terms of workers in houses or in another type of organizations (male or female-headed) as opposed to those working solo?

[ismnotwasm]

10. Another thought

One of the things that consistently irritates me is the concept of the "porn star" What is that supposed to mean? Pulling numbers out of the top of my head, (I'll have to go look them up) in the '70's there was a TOTAL of around of a few thousand porn movies made. Maybe 17,000, I don't remember. Today, there is close to 20,000 a year made. Not all the actors are "stars" Not even close. Many are women with impaired ability to make healthy choices. I've no doubt sexual abuse has played a role, and certain studies bears this out. One of the saddest porn worker stories I know personally is a brother and sister coerced into child pornography early on, taking years to get out of the industry. Their stories don't end well, last I heard. Porn workers are notoriously difficult to track and study and the most verbal tend to be from one end of the spectrum or the other ie, "I love what I do, to I hate what I do and am ashamed". Leading to a statistical mishmash, often used to justify the sad, sorry state of pornagraphy.

One of my biggest objections about porn, aside from the general misogyny, is the industry itself, which as Thomcat pointed out, it's corrupt and dangerous. Not only with ties into all types of body crimes, but financial shinagens as well. This can't be blamed on illegality, as porn is legal, the actors are of age (in a perfect world)and presumably are able to make decisions, whatever I feel about those decisions. People make decisions to drink and drive as well, but I suppose that's not a fair analogy.

Anyway, back to my porn "star" deal. Calling all porn actors stars--which I notice pops up anytime anyone is identified as a porn actor-- is like calling street prostitutes hooked on heroin "$5000.00 a night call girls", implying a free choice, good money, and a healthy way of life. (And is it really that good for the "top of the line" prostitute?)

[bliss_eternal]

13. Regarding porn-stars...

...I'm still trying to pin-point when they became "porn-stars." :shrug: Was it when porn became more mainstream? Or was it the influence and popularity of people like Howard Stern? He regularly featured adult actors on his show, doing wacky stuff. He was probably the first person I ever heard use that term "porn star." Which I recall struck me as odd the first time I heard it.

There was a definite shift. I recall a time when someone would say...well actually they mumbled or whispered, "...oh they work in porn" or "the adult industry" but they weren't called stars. It wasn't really seen as a "career" to aspire to either, just something people fell into, usually those that weren't able to find success in Hollywood acting(those in CA's industry at least). But now there are girls that seem to make a conscious effort to get into porn. They say they want to be like Jenna Jameson. (I've heard a few say this).

Can anyone put a finger on when the porn star label was applied, and made popular?

[ismnotwasm]

20. When it became culturally acceptable is a good guess

I still object to the idea that all is well with sex work or pornography It's not. When I get a little time, I look and see what I can find.


But on a completely different note, not all is well with how we educate people about sexuality. I wonder if porn is popular as it is, partially out of curiosity, a place to go and get information.

I was reading numerous papers and studies on porn at one time. One I found had to do with how people actually get sexual information at sex shops, these places, which sell pornography as well, were found by one informal questionnaire study to be underutilized recourses of sexual health information. The person who did the study wondered if these stores, (Lover's package, Love pantry,--that kind of thing) could be utilized in this way. It was an interesting thought. At the time, I exchanged some PM's with Mongo, who told me that people did indeed come into his shop and ask personal questions about sexuality and sexual aids, as they apparently felt they had no other resource.

Another example of this is one of our local SMBD clubs. I was talking to a male friend who attended a "Clitoris workshop" at one. Women volunteers laid on doctor's office-type table's with stirrups, and people who pain $35 dollars for this class where treated to a layman's anatomy course, complete with sexual tips. The presenter brought up what I consider a feminist issue, now the penis is completely demystified and phallic symbols abound, while the clitoris, a magical little organ, is nearly unknown, and rarely referred to. My friend, who is 37, revealed what to me what I considered a shocking lack of knowledge of women's anatomy--now corrected-- and he has a greater appreciation. (I had a few very cynical thoughts at time of the conversation. Most of the class were male, It was a SMBD club, so my first thought was men wanting a voyeuristic experience, and the women as submissives told what to do. Cynical, unkind, and probably for the most part untrue. I then thought how many men don't CARE about what or where a clitoris is, ala the FGM vs male circumcision debates)

Possibly, the alternative sex community and the porn and sex worker industry has taken the place of honest, open and accurate sexual education, a huge education gap since the perception of sex as "dirty" or "immoral" persists. I don't feel the industry as a whole corrects this, nor does it address the underlying misogyny. But no wonder many want to see the porn actors as "stars"

[Lilith Velkor]

21. I was stuck by how nice the pornographers were in the film

After all the crap she took from "normal guys," it was no wonder she gravitated toward people who treated her with respect.

She didn't seem "naive" about what the pictures were for, in fact she rationalized it, so it's rather odd that the director would say that...

Also, Bettie Page was a devout Christian, but an unconventional one, and this created problems when she was trying to be active in her chuch later in life.

The movie barely mentions her religion at all, but it's a good film in a bittersweet kinda way.