The JonBenet Ramsey case. I never really paid attention, but ..

[johnnie]

I started reading some stuff on this case yesterday and it is pretty interesting. I knew a little about the whole case, but I didn't really delve into it like a lot of people have.
It's been over 8 years now and they still haven't found the killer. There are a lot of really bizarre things about that case and I was surprised that there is so much that is unanswered.
Have you looked into it at all? Who do you think did it? I'm curious to see what some of you think about that case.

[livetohike]

1. Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

I think it is one of the best books written about the case. There were so many things done wrong in the first hour of the investigation.

My opinion is that it's likely that the murderer is Patsy Ramsey. The note that was supposedly written by this group of kidnappers is so phony it would make you laugh, except for the tragedy of JonBenet's life.

It's very sad.

[johnnie]

2. I heard of the book. There is a movie too..right?

I found this site last night and it is pretty interesting. This person put together the theory that Burke (the son) did it. After reading some of the history of the case and then reading this..it makes some sense.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7615/index2.html

There are just too many questions that need to be answered before anyone is tried on this.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

3. I highly recommend

Perfect Murder, Perfect Town by Lawrence Schiller. Excellent book of the case & very detailed (too detailed for some). If I remember right Schiller came out later & said he didn't think the parents killed her. I've always suspected the older guy who lived in the neighborhood & played Santa Claus for the children. I think he has since died. I remember him on the Today Show. He was just standing outside the studio & Bryant Gumbel came out to talk to the fans. This guy, out of the blue, says he's their neighbor & he knows JonBonet. this was just days after the murder.

I really doubted either of the parents did it, but I always wondered if they suspected their son & tried to set up a crime scene to point to someone else, i.e. the ransom note, the scene, etc. One thing I remember; Patsy said that the ransom note was on the spiral staircase & she stepped over it. The detectives tried to recreate that by skipping a step as they walked down. They said they found it very awkward & just about fell. I have a spiral the same size as the Ramsey's & I thought the detectives were full of it, so I tried it. Well, I just about killed myself. Her story pretty much fell apart unless finding something on the step was a common occurrence in her house. Even then, I wouldn't try stepping over anything. Does this make sense? It's really hard for me to describe it.

best

[johnnie]

6. Did you check out the link I gave in post #2?

I'm curious as to what anyone who read that book would think of the Burke theory.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

7. just read the link.

Yeah, it could be. The Ramsey's would lose both children (or thought they would) if Burke did it. By this time, Burke must realize that he killed JonBonet if the allegations are true. I would think he would be in deep therapy.

[livetohike]

4. Yes there was a movie, but I haven't seen it

It's just amazing with all the clues left behind that no one has been charged in this murder.

The ransom note is the real puzzler. Perhaps Patsy wrote it to cover up her son's crime :shrug:

[ernstbass]

5. When I read that book I thought Patsy did it

Then I read thd parents' book and I thought a stranger entered the home and did it. I still wonder about Patsy going into a rage and doing it -

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

8. The problem I have with

the theory that Patsy went into a rage & killed JonBonet is that absolutely no one has come forward & reported seeing Patsy so much as smack JonBonet's hand. That all of a sudden she would become so enraged she killed her child seems to me to be a stretch. If there was a history of abuse I would definitely agree with that theory.

best

[Lex]

9. There is abuse in families that is *always* kept behind closed doors

so that we would never know if there was abuse going on in that house, imho.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

10. Good point.

It was a really well kept secret since her pediatrician reported that he never saw any sign. However, JonBonet still wet the bed at 6. To me that shows something going on, but I always attributed it to the whole beauty queen/be perfect thing going on.

I don't know, but it really seems far fetched to me. Patsy would risk hitting her little beauty queen & leaving a bruise?

best

[Lex]

11. Maybe it had been purely emotional abuse until she flipped

one night? And then when she hurt the child physically, Patsy realized she could never live it down so she concocted the rest of the horrible mess to cover her tracks?

The ransom note was written on paper from their house with a pen from their house. That is what really sticks out as odd to me.

[johnnie]

12. Don't forget the "practice" ransom notes they found

It's hard to believe that the killer would have started a note and thought: "Nope, that doesn't sound quite right..let me start again".
As for the family doctor saying that JonBenet was never abused, I believe it has been since shown that there were signs of previous sexual abuse to JonBenet that was found during autopsy. I will have to look to see if I can find where I read that.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

13. The ransom note,

plus Patsy finding it on the back spiral, plus her stepping over it by skipping that riser, plus the amount asked for (if I remember right it was the exact amount of John's bonus from work) all add up to weird, I agree. I'm questioning whether Patsy or John killed her.

When I posted the pediatrician found no evidence of abuse, I meant physical abuse like beatings. If there was sexual abuse I still gotta go with the son or a neighbor (especially that weird old duck who played Santa Claus)

I still feel like Patsy & John thought that Burke did it so they came up with this whole kidnapping scenario to protect him.

If Burke didn't do it, then I have just made the most hurtful, wild accusations against a child.

[Bunny]

14. John Douglas, one of the original people in the Behavioral Science Unit

at the FBI, wrote in a book that he doesn't believe that either of the parents were involved. He made a pretty good case for it being an intruder. There was forensic evidence that looked as if someone did break in through the basement. There were also other things he brought up, I don't remember them now.

Anyway, another of the points he made is this: parents like the Ramseys, with absolutely no history of so much as paddling their kids, are just not likely to kill their own child in as vicious a manner as JonBenet was. Don't forget that, along with the terrible head wound, she was also garroted, and possibly sexually assaulted.

In his history of studying criminals and developing profiles, parents with a history like the Ramseys just don't do this. Vicious killers don't arise out a vacuum, and that is what would have had to happen, in order for John or Patsy to have killed their daughter.

While an otherwise wonderful parent could uncharacteristically lash out and accidentally kill their child, to follow that up with garroting her, placing sperm on her leg, and leaving her in the cold basement just isn't likely. Neither John nor Patsy had ever displayed this kind of cold-blooded cunning or savagery in any other aspect of their lives.

Prior to reading his book, I believed that at least one of the Ramseys were involved in this. Now I don't think either of them were. I believe it was an intruder.

BTW - the book is called The Cases That Haunt Us. It's a pretty good read, covers Lizzie Borden, Jack the Ripper, and I think The Zodiac Killer too.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

15. When John "found" her

(I put "found" in quotes because so much doesn't add up) didn't he wrap her in a blanket? That to me shows a loving father who couldn't bear to see his child lying in a cold basement.

I seriously doubt the case will ever be solved. The detectives were in way over their head, were intimidated by the Ramseys, & too much time & too many clues are lost.

best

[Bunny]

16. Yes, he did, and carried her upstairs and placed her near

the Christmas tree, IIRC. Unless they can get a positive match to the DNA, they will never find the killer. The Boulder police botched that scene from the very get-go.

[Corgigal]

19. no he didn't

the child was found with a blanket on top of her. He carried her in full rigor up the stairs.

Boulder Police at the time of the investigation of this homicide were the worst untrained law enforcement I have ever seen. My family comes from law enforcement, including homicide detectives.
You wouldn't want anyone murdered investigated by those idiots.

Poor kid, first got murdered and then no chance at justice.

[johnnie]

17. I like John Douglas

I have a few of his books and he is pretty good at what he does. I have to say though, I have seen where he has been way off on his profiles. I'm not saying he is in this case, but I am a lot less likely to follow his thoughts on a case than I was a few years back. I would have to read this one and see what he has to say about the JonBenet case.

[frogmarch]

18. Hi

I was a poster at Websleuths (not to be confused with the "bb" site, Webbsleuths, a rabid Ramseys Are Innocent! site) for quite a few years, till Websleuths put up a political forum around the time of the 04 primaries. I couldn't stay out of that forum to save my soul, and as a result of my tangling with repugs, I was put on TO a few times. To be fair, some repugs were TO'd too. Maybe I finally got banned altogether from Websleuths. I don't know. After my last TO, I never went back.

Anyway...the main crime forum at Websleuths at the time was the JonBenet forum. That's the one that interested me the most, and I posted there a lot. Most of the posters there were RDIers (a Ramsey did it) but there were a few IDIers (an intruder did it). Among the RDIers were PDIers (Patsy did it) and JDIers (John did it). BDIers (Burke did it) such as myself were considered pariah, pretty much, but we stuck to our guns. There weren't very many of us, which always surprised me.

I still think JonBenet's brother Burke probably took her life, though I've never thought he did it intentionally.

[Corgigal]

20. and JonBenet had foreign DNA in her underwear

not family related. Boulder PD knew that fact shortly have the murder but still tried to use the press to railroad the parents.

[shrike]

21. Wasn't there a pubic hair as well?

Or am I misremembering, to quote our favorite president?

I read Douglas' book and was astonished at the physical evidence that was ignored. And the screw-ups by police.

[frogmarch]

22. the so-called "foreign" DNA

According to molecular biologist Melissa Weber of CellMark Laboratories, the lab that did the DNA analysis, the so-called "foreign" DNA found on JonBenet's underpants (and under her fingernails) was degraded and had to be amplified through PCR amplification to ID enough markers. During PCR amplification, damaged or old, degraded, imperfect DNA is amplified along with the good, and can give the false impression that another person's DNA is present, when it actually isn't. The two extra markers found in the "foreign" DNA sample could be merely stutter (also called shadow bands), a common problem occuring in PCR amplification, which often results in a false positive. Melissa Weber went on to say that if there WERE two sources of DNA and they were mixed together, then no one could be excluded. The Ramseys like to claim that the "foreign" DNA did not match any of the Ramseys. What they don't admit is that under present technology, no DNA match is possible with ANYONE.

It has been theorized by law enforcement investigators and scientists alike that if the extra markers are actually from another person, that person could be someone who handled (or sneezed on) the underpants during their manufacture. The underpants were new, straight out of the package, and had not been washed prior to being found on the body.

The hair found on the blanket was an axillary hair, not a pubic hair - and the hair was Patsy Ramsey's.

The mysterious palm print on the basement door was innocently made by Melissa Ramsey, John's daughter from his previous marriage, and there's even a Ramsey home video showing Melissa making the print.

The shoe prints found beside the body were made by Burke Ramsey's Hi-Tec boots.

Moreover, both David Liebman, former president of the National Association of Document Examiners, and Gideon Epstein, director of the forensics unit of the documents lab at the Immigration and Naturalization Service until he retired in 2000, stated after examining exemplars of Patsy Ramsey's handwriting that they are positive that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note.

There is no evidence of an intruder having been in the Ramsey house the night JonBenet died. None. All the evidence points to the Ramseys...

from the fibers found in the ligature around JonBenet's neck being indistinguishable from fibers from the jacket Patsy was wearing that day

to fibers discovered in the underpants that were on the body of JonBenet being indistinguishable from fibers from the wool shirt made in Israel that John was wearing that day

to the ransom note

to Burke Ramsey's boot print found near the body

And on and on...

There is not one single piece of evidence that points to anyone but the Ramseys.

[frogmarch]

23. too late to edit

my above post. I meant to type "Melinda" Ramsey, not "Melissa." I had the name "Melissa" on my mind from having mentioned Melissa Weber from CellMark.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

24. Kick.

[johnnie]

25. Cool kick

I forgot about this one. When I came here and saw my name and Ramsey in the subject line I thought "shit, 24 replies already?"..LOL. It was interesting reading this after some time and with the knew news.

Thanks for the kick.

[wakemeupwhenitsover]

26. Yeah, I couldn't resist. I knew we had talked about it before.

I mean, what case hasn't gotten at least a post or two? :rofl: So I searched. I'll bet there are lots of individual posts, too. I was just looking for the thread.

[frogmarch]

27. Yes, thanks

for reviving this thread.

Until it's been proven that the suspect's DNA is as close to a definite, indesputable match as is scientifically possible under any circumstances (and I don't mean that he just can't be excluded as the donor), to the degraded DNA samples found on JonBenet's body, I stand by my "the so-called 'foreign DNA'" post above.