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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 01:48 AM
Original message
Does anyone ever come in here?
Or are Native American issues dead to democrats? I don't know, I'm just asking.
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 03:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. hey there
i'm here...
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-13-05 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Hey, there you are!...:)
I have been coming in here for the past couple weeks, since someone blessed my wife(turtleone) and I with gold stars, it seems the traffic that comes through is pretty...limited/slow.

I was starting to think there weren't to many people here interested in American Indian issues....I have seen you post quite a few times on the subject...:) I'm from SE Alaska, Ketchikan...i'm in SW Missouri....yeah, i took a wrong turn somewhere!...:) I plan on being back in the big AK in a couple years...i hope!...:)

Just a thought, from you, if you can...what do you honestly think of the mascot issue? It seems to be the main issue that main stream american thinks of, when dealing with American Indians...the NCAA has put forth some tough rules on schools who have offensive Indian mascots...I just want to know your take on it....
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. i go with common cause....
some very good (old) friends of mine are personally involved in this issue politically...so i do oppose the use of these icons...
personally i have no strong feeling about the issue...except i believe "indian" schools that choose to have these type of mascots should be allowed to do so...
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. I read this not to long ago...
And I think it provides some insight on the mascot issue. I went to school at Haskell with this man, so, its not my words, but this is what "Steve" had to say about the mascots...

I haven’t written on this issue yet because I’ve been gathering my thoughts, but here they are. I can’t think of any good reason to keep a Native American-themed mascot if certain Natives find them offensive. Here are some of the arguments I’ve heard.

The “We are honoring you” argument:
The simple fact that a significant portion of Natives who find such mascots as offensive dismantles any claim of “honoring” Native Americans. Imagine a sports team called the Christians. What if they were to simulate a crucifixion at the fifty-yard line before a game, similar to the way FSU does with a flaming spear before their football games. The mascot could run around in white robes and sandals with fake puncture wounds on his hands and feet, yelling “I am the way and the light,” while running up and down the sideline, “resurrecting” people as the band plays, “Onward Christian soldier.” Could that be excused by simply stating that they we’re honoring a person whom a great deal of white people worship as a god?

The “What about the fighting Irish?” argument:
How many Irish-Americans have complained about this mascot? It’s an honest question because I don’t know. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that most Irish-American are not offended. My response: “so what?” Are you seriously going to tell me that since one group of people are not offended by how they are portray as a sports mascot, that Native Americans don’t have not right to be? Would the same argument be as effective if a group of African-Americans were offended by team called “The N*****s?” Would those people tell that group of African-Americans, “well the Irish aren’t offended by the ‘Fighting Irish,’ so why should you?” And if you’re thinking that I’m stretching this with using the “N” word, try going into a place where there are a huge number of Natives present (i.e. powwows, tribal councils, an Indian Center) and say, “What’s up Redskins.” (Then after that, try explaining that you are honoring them.) Some people are shocked when I tell them that terms like “Skin/Redskin” or “Chief” are the equivalent to the “N” word for some Native Americans. The whole the-Irish-aren’t-offended-so-why-should-you-be argument simply does not make sense.

The “What’s next, PETA complaining about the use of animal mascots, or the Audubon Society complaining about bird mascots?” argument.
Are you seriously going to align animals and birds with Native Americans? We may be few in number, but we’re not dead and are not simply a part of the natural background.

The “It’s been long tradition at this institution” argument:
Hmmmmm, let’s see here, the oldest university in the U.S. is Harvard, which was established in 1636. Would it surprise anyone if were to say that Native Americans tribes predate 1636? If you’d like to play the “its tradition” card, I believe any Native American tribe would be able to trump that.

The “Let’s not get too P.C.” argument (a.k.a. the “someone is going to be offended no matter what you do” argument): Simply saying that someone is going to be offended no matter what I do seems to be a weak reason to continue with Native American-themed mascots.

Yes, it’s true, you can always find at least one person who would be offended by any action you take, but does that excuse continuing an action that you know to be offensive? Not to mention that the whole argument breaks down when you consider that not just one person will be offended, but a significant group of people. Hyper-sensitivity is one thing, but basic common respect is down-right civil. Let’s say that I refer to you has “shithead” or “asshole” and you are offended by that (and believe me, naming a sports team “the Savages” is equal if not more offensive than “shithead” or “asshole” to a lot of Natives). Let’s say that you inform me that you do not wish to be referred to by those names because it offends you. What would you say if I then said, “I know it offends you, but 1.) I say it to honor you, 2.) Bob isn’t offended, so why are you, 3.) I suppose you don’t want me calling your dog “shithead”, and 4.) there’s nothing I can do that someone won’t find offensive so stop being to sensitive.

The “Seminoles have give permission to FSU” argument:
Okay, you got me. If the Seminoles of Florida and, according to recent reports, of Oklahoma are fine with how Florida State University represents their image, who am I to say anything; I’m not Seminole. This may seem like a copout, but the whole “Seminole” argument is a red hearing. Just because the Seminole Nations of Florida and Oklahoma offer their approval to FSU does not excuse the owners of the Washington Redskins to use the term “Redskin.” Am I offended by FSU using the Seminoles and their portrayal of Chief Osceola? Sure, but, like I said, I’m not Seminole. It’s their sovereign right to offer such an approval because it is particular to their people. It’s similar to the “Fighting Irish” argument. It would be like saying, “Since the Seminole nations of Florida and Oklahoma aren’t offended, why should the remaining 560 tribes (and these are just the ones that have federal recognition; it does not include those without federal but state recognition and those tribes that are fighting for federal recognition) be offended by teams like the “Savages” or the “Redskins?”

There you have it. I have not come across an argument for the retention of Native American-themed mascots that is overly convincing. To be quite honest, I feel that those who do argue for the mascots’ retention are simply saying, “We don’t care what Native Americans think,” and I’m not too keen on that sentiment.

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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 08:29 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Or are Native American issues dead to democrats?"
Yup, pretty much. The dominant culture, no matter the party gets nervous when we ask for REAL justice.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. I get that feeling...
from both parties...it seems with the RW we get the "It happened a long time ago, forget about it" and from the LW i hear "I know it was horrible and I feel bad about what happened, but move on"....essential the same thing is being said. But truthfully i have heard worse, from both sides of the aisle.

It seems the dems only chum up around election time, if I remember correctly, I heard Kerry state thats some indian tribe blessed him during the election cycle last year...I believe he said it was in wisconsin, so it was either Menominee's, or Ho-Chunks...

I have seen very few politicians take a stand...McCain, Dashle, Casselbaum of Kansas, the Hawaii's senator Daniel Inouye...I was disheartened greatly when Dashle lost last year...

I don't know, its seems a very dead issue which is sad. My wife started a Native American Resource group at her job, and even then getting higher management to take notice has been a task, but she has done very well...I wish there was some visible sign like this from the native community involved with American Indian issues...but maybe there is, and I just don't see it, or maybe not....anyways...
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 09:28 PM
Response to Original message
6. I come by every great once in awhile.

I was looking for a good reference, person or book or whatever, really, dealing with Native astrology. ... didn't get any response here. My wife and I wholeheartedly believe that you should get free health care and education forever because our government purposefully betrayed and murdered your people. Better housing, too. Our policies towards people in need are really a cancer on the body of our country.
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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Actually...
...there were several responses to your question on native "astrology".

WRT the topic of this thread,the real issue is native sovereignty and genuine self determination. In order to have those in any meaningful way requires that the Government honor its own agreements with certain land claims, land that we still have a legal right to but the government refuses to allow us to reclaim. To live according to our traditional values and with some measure of traditional ways requires restoration of treaty rights and at least some of our land base. This makes the dominant culture very nervous.

Like I have said before, liberal democrats are not our friends as long as they stand for the status quo.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Yes, sovereignty
and land ownership issues make politicians cringe....plus you forgot the Indian Trust Fund case against the department of the interior, that Gale Norton is neck deep in....that case, is another example of how the dominant culture has treated American Indians...

Most politicians brush aside the land ownership issues, with a laugh, and snide smile, like we are telling a joke...but, we aren't joking...at least i'm not...;)
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Strong support.
Yes, I saw them after my former post. I couln't agree more that the underlying issue is sovereignty and self determination, the basic right allegedly guaranteed by our Declaration and Constitution. I see that as supporting the basic tasks of government, that is, to take care of the people. When the task gets lost, people get hurt as evidenced by the greed and malice of this administration and its supporters. Natives, blacks, indeed, all people should have free everything. There's enough to go around.
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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. I don't know what you mean by native
astrology. What exactly to you mean by that, that is a term I haven't heard until i came to DU, maybe it will help if you clarify that. American Indians do get health care, but it isn't entirely free. IHS treats me, at least in my experience pretty freaking bad.

Its like, they are going out of there way to help you, like a charity, and IHS does have some pretty twisted rules...like for example, I'm haida from SE Alaska, if i'm out of state, or damn, out of my hometown my tribe refuses to recognize me, or to help me for anything...does that make sense?

Its like, if i move away, its like I'm not longer Indian, but my tribe doesn't bat an eye, taking role money from the fed government in my name...my tribe gets a small % of money per memember...

Education, i have faired a whole lot better with help for educational purposes. I went to college at Haskell Indian Nations University which is an all Indian university, meaning each student is from a federally recognized tribe, with their cdib card. I have recieved a lot of help from the American Indian Scholarship fund for Haskell, and classes/tuition for classes at Kansas University...so in that regard, I believe the fed govt is doing something positive, but again, i know they can do more...especially in the awareness department.

What I mean by awareness...most indians don't know that Haskell exists and I takes me by surprise when i come across indians that don't know what Haskell is. If American Indians don't know that there are these types of oppurtunities out there, then they can't take advantage of it.

I do agree that the USA has to do better in taking care of its less fortunate, poor and minorities...and it is a cancer, it seems with today's material/monetary society, everything else seems to be forgotten/lost in the search for more money....

:)

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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. common ground
I understood from a group of people who have experience with native tradition that there's a system of astrology coming from there. It peaked my curiosity.

I'm truly sorry to hear about your suffering in the hands of the health system. I know it's hard resenting treatment at the hands of those who are supposed to be taking care of us. Natives, blacks, everyone actually should get good free/ just about free everything. I can relate with your tale of partial satisfaction with the way our government de-values our schools. I had some trouble getting money for coworkers to continue their education. At that time, there were no Pell grants for post-graduate work, a big problem since there's enough to go around.

Thank you, so much, for your time and effort in responding to my question. I hope you are well and go well. I call on the ancient and holy beings in the four directions ..., guide all resources known and unknown to help this one in pursuing the highest good for all concerned. Ho!
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. native religion is not
evangelical...books dealing with native astrology and or religion are generally not written as a means of spreading the word...but written by "non-spiritual" people as an intellectual excercise...that type of knowledge is kept secret and only dispensed as a form of initiation to a clan or spiritual awakening...people who make public that information to the uninitiated are committing a form of blesphemy...

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Broken_Hero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. That was what I was thinking...
But I wasn't sure what the poster was trying to say...for certain.
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. actually
i'm not certain either...i was afraid i was gonna come across as overly pompous (who me)...but for the sake of giving some sort of answer....i just went ahead and took a shot...
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. I appreciate your clarification.
I come from an orthodox tradition and can relate to passing things along conservatively. If I don't find anyone to help me understand native astrology, I can content myself with what I'm currently working with. :)
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cleofus1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 05:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. there is no overarching native astrology
is there a particular tribal mythos you are interested in? central american (aztec etc.) is pretty well documented...U.S. Tribal religions were nearly killed off by the white people...(even to this day)...i think just the pueblo people have an almost intact astrology...maybe...but there is no real medicine man (spiritual chief) who would share that with you...unless you joined a clan in the kiva...
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Metta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-16-05 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I hadn't anything particular in mind.
In a group of people I recently spent time with, some of them agreed that I'd benefit from getting into native astrology. As a total outsider, I thought the stuff would be more readily available, like information about totem animals. Since the nearest kiva is a good day's flight from here, I'm not going to get involved. I have enough to work with these days. I was only looking to follow up on suggestions from people who seemed to know. Thanks, though, for your reply.
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