Why should we feel bad for supporting the Irish nationalists?

[JohnKleeb]

No offense to you if you don't but I support a united Ireland, and I feel what has gone on in Northern Ireland is a disgrace. Yeah call me an British hater, I don't care but let there be a united Ireland.

[two gun sid]

1. I don't hate the British people

But, the British Government policy in Northern Ireland is barbaric. They mollycoddle the Unionists and keep their foot on the Republicans necks while talking about the peace process.

[JohnKleeb]

4. Yep, you got it man

[DaveinMD]

2. we shouldn't

I am an Irish Republican and proud of it. I am a member of NORAID. The British rule of Northern IRELAND is morally wrong and always has been. They have supported discrimination of the worst kind in NI as well. Its reprehensible.

[JohnKleeb]

3. I can tell you, I don't feel bad either

[Maeve]

5. There is no shame in supporting the nationalists....however

Too often that is seen as supporting the violent means to the end of a united Ireland. And that goes back to the unified effort to paint the nationalist/republican movement as a terrorist one, even when it was peaceful in most aspects (yes, I'm thinking of "Bloody Sunday"--hard hitting movie, that!)

I was going to start a thread to check, but I susupect most here on DU are Irish Republicans of some sort. But few support violence, especially against non-combattants, nor the commission of crimes to raise funding. Personally, I think the border will dissolve in time, much as the Berlin Wall came down--because the division is unsustainable in the long term. The Republic already has a higher standard of living than the Six Counties and the UK can't pour money into the area forever.

BTW, did you know there are more British troops in NI than there are in Iraq?

[JohnKleeb]

6. I think we're more divided on this issue than we are on the I/P issue

Ive moderated some on that issue, Ive went from being Pro Palestine to netural. No, I did not know that.

[Maeve]

7. If that's true, we have more need to keep the fighting down

After all, the problems of that troubled northern land are not going to be solved here in one little DU forum. (Neither are the problems of the Middle East, but you wouldn't know that from some of the debate!)

There have been times in the past that I have wished I could grab the leaders of both (all, actualy) of the factions in the conflict. Grab them by the ears and crack their fool heads together (remember the MASH episode where Hawkeye went to the peace talks and chewed the participants out for wasting time? Something like...)

[DaveinMD]

8. I'm an Irish Republican

I have no problem with violence against the forces of the occupation. This is no different that the American Revolution. This includes the British Army and the RUC. Violence against civilians is very different. It should not occur and is counter productive.

However, I also believe the time for violence except for self defense is passed. The more Sinn Fein engages in politics the more difficult it will become for the Unionists.

[two gun sid]

9. Yep, you're right...

that's why they keep Sinn Fein outside looking in. SF figured out long ago that continuing the struggle through violence was a losing proposition. The Unionists always add another requirement to continue the peace process hoping to frustrate the Nationalists.


Brits Out!

[Donkeyboy75]

10. Not to mention they are pinning the N Ireland bank heist

on SF with no evidence whatsoever. Even Bertie Ahern is in on it.

That said, I think both extremes are wrong here. A process with moderate forces steering the government is the only way any sort of legitimacy will be bestowed on the new government.

[DaveinMD]

11. Ahern wants the destruction of Sinn Fein

Fianna Fail claims to be a Republican Party, but they don't act like one. They are worried about Sinn Fein cutting into their vote in the South.

The Good Friday model was a good model if both sides feet were held to the fire. HOwever, only Republicans have been criticized. Trimble was never held accountable for reneging on his commitments and Paisley sure hasn't either.

[Donkeyboy75]

12. I agree.

And I live in the South. But, it's unlikely that an agreement will be reached and followed by either side. They don't want to look like capitulating, and I truly believe both sides are sabotaging the process. The fact that powerful politicians are both on the British side doesn't change the fact that the extremes on both sides are not dealing straight.

[DaveinMD]

13. the problem is

that the British and Unionists/Loyalists keep moving the ball. The IRA keeps doing what is requested and then another demand is foisted upon them. Meanwhile, there has been virtually no implementation of the Patten reforms on policing.

[Wat_Tyler]

14. There is no real alternative to a United Ireland.

The problem is, how can it be achieved? We're still decades away from that resolution.

[DaveinMD]

15. Demographic changes

will eventually make it so

[Donkeyboy75]

16. But the demographic change is in a race

against economic change. As the ROI continues to put more distance between itself and NI in economic terms, you'll find less support for One Island, One Country. Despite all the 26+6=1 bumper stickers in the U.S. You'd be surprised how many DON'T support reunification. The Germany situation is brought up often during discussions.

[Wat_Tyler]

17. That's true from an economic perspective.

In that situation, can Northern Ireland have a future? I can't see it remaining in its current state in the long term. I suppose the question is - how can we come to a solution that satisfies enough people to work?

[Donkeyboy75]

18. I think both sides know that a solution

will make them both slightly unhappy. But you hit on the point that the method to getting the solution is probably more important than the actual solution. This process is constantly being used as a political football, making compromise difficult. It's a standoff, and nobody wants to blink first. That's why outside parties really need to help broker a deal. And I don't think Bush can do it either. Irish Republicans would too quickly see any concessions to the Protestants as a payback to Blair for supporting and aiding the Iraq war.

To me, this whole thing is an intractable problem. I don't see any way out. I'm glad people smarter than me are working on it.

[Wat_Tyler]

19. Right - the weight of history is too great.

I can't see how this insurmountable barrier could be surpassed. I wonder what would happen if Scotland were to become independent, thus ending the United Kingdom as a political unit - what happens to Northern Ireland then?

[Donkeyboy75]

22. I think that's a major reason Scotland won't become independent.

They'll invade NI, and there will be a three way struggle for power. That will pave the way for the Picts, and it's goodnight Irene.

[mrgorth]

20. We shouldn't.

I'm a member of the AOH, Noraid and I support Sinn Fein 100%.

[JohnKleeb]

21. Yep, I don't feel bad at all