"We are all going to Heaven"

[elshiva]

Discuss please. I agree!

[regnaD kciN]

1. I'm not God...

...so I don't get to make that call.

However, I would note an interesting theological point: In Eastern Orthodox theology (which is really earlier than most equivalents in the Western Church) it's considered heresy to claim that "all must be saved" -- but only because it denies human free will. In other words, each human has the option to consciously reject God. To claim that all must be saved means that God can take free will away from those who reject God, and force them to accept instead. Therefore, one cannot say "all must be saved"...but one can hope that "all will be saved."

Another point of Orthodoxy is that it is considered completely acceptable to pray for the salvation of Satan. Imagine what conniption fits that would inspire in most Western denominations, particularly the more fundamentalist ones!

(Beyond this, here is my own speculation. I'm not claiming that what I write is "Gospel truth," and it doesn't fit into most literal "heaven above - earth in the middle - hell below" cosmologies. But I get the sense that, possibly, we will all end up in the same "place" -- one where the God who is Love is recognized as supreme. If you, over the course of your earthly life, have grown to the point where you would recognize God being the center of this new existence to be a good thing, it will be "heaven" to you. If you have grown to reject God, or become so self-centered that anyone other than yourself as the "center of the universe" is an intolerable thought, you will perceive the same place to be "hell." Whether you have a chance to spiritually grow from the latter understanding to the former after death, or whether death locks your personality in stone so that you will always remain oriented toward the understanding you had at death, is a question I cannot yet answer.)

[RevCheesehead]

2. I think it's really our choice.

Wesleyan theology postulates the thought of sanctification EVEN AFTER DEATH. This holds out the possibility for those who have rejected God, Jesus, organized religion, etc. The idea is "would a merciful God permit people to die with no hope?"

It's an intriguing thought, since it eternally holds the possibility for all to be united to God. It's not quite universalism, but it's close. You still have the possibility to accept/come to God - even after death.

Think of it this way:
* God desires that we ALL be reconciled, to God and to one another.
* God's chosen people were chosen "to be a light to all nations."
* In Jesus, God opened the door for Gentiles to be included in the covenant.
* If God strongly desires that all of creation be reconciled, wouldn't it make sense that that possibility does NOT end at death?

I don't believe in hell - at least, not in the conventional sense. I think a true hell would be estrangement from God. But people would still be able to "move to the light" if they choose to do so.

That's kind of rambling, but I hope I get the idea across.

Great question, elshiva! :thumbsup:

[elshiva]

3. I think we make hell here on earth.

[GOPBasher]

4. I tend to agree. Elshiva and RevCheesehead, may I ask you two a ques?

I have a question for Elshiva, RevCheesehead, or anyone else who might be able to help.

I tend to agree that we will all eventually be in heaven. I say this for a number of reasons. Let me say just one argument (my simplest): Why would God create someone knowing s/he would be apart form him for all of eternity. I have to believe God loves us as a parent loves a child. I would give my child every opportunity in my power (note those words) to come back to me at any time. I have to believe God would do that also, and since his power is infinite, he couldn't fail. So, I have to believe that, at some point, every living soul will be back with God. The way I tend to think about this is what RevCheesehead said in his post, that we will always have to chance to go back, even after death. Eventually, everyone will.

My question to you two, since I'm pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) that you both have seminary training, is this: How much biblical evidence is there to support this universalism (or almost-universalism, in RevCheesehead's case)? I am asking because I consider myself a Christian (due to personal events in my life, I've decided it seems likely that it's true - Jesus really is the risen lord, the Son of God). But I'm a new Christian, and I really don't know if I can back that universalist claim biblically, and if I can't, can I still call myself a Christian? I've seen a website -- link is below -- but I'm not sure how much to believe. I'm wondering if they took those quotes out of context. Anyway, sorry for being so long-winded. I hope my rambling made a bit of sense to you, and I'll appreciate any help. :-)


http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/index.html

[elshiva]

5. I dunno about that website, but here are two quotes:

* "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
* "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).


Proof-texting (using the some Bible quotes for a specific purpose) is not that great, but I agree that God loves everyone. He will work out the repentance of all people. Have you ever read "Adolf and Ivan: Last Men in Hell" by Stephen Vicchio? In this play, even Adolf Hitler eventually spends out his sentence in Hell in goes to Heaven. I don't get the play completely, but in it Hitler does not literally burn, but suffers from a crippling guilt and a painful gunshot wound. That's why I say you make your own Hell, then you suffer it out. Mostly in this life we get Hell, but I think in exceptional cases like Hitler, your Hell goes on after death. It ain't like in the movies with the flames and devils pricking you with pitchforks. It ain't something external, it comes from the person's own shit.

Remember that this is what is called speculative theology, we don't know of what we talk, at least not completely because we are mortals. But WE KNOW GOD IS LOVE!

[GreenPartyVoter]

7. I totally believe that it is possible that we either spend

purgatory reliving our "sins" from our victims' point of view, or we reincarnate and possibly experience them that way. It just makes so much sense to me.

[GOPBasher]

9. Thanks for those quotes. :-)

And that book sounds interesting, too. :hi:

[elshiva]

10. You are welcome!

[GreenPartyVoter]

6. I believe in universalism but I also believe in Purgatory and

Reincarnation. Why? Because I believe that we will all _eventually_ be reconciled with God, and that life is a learning experience and sometimes we don't learn everything we needed to in our first go-around. What I don't believe is that if we don't learn what we were supposed to that God sets on fire forever and ever. :eyes:

In other words, I am a "restorative universalist". :)

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/liberalchristians.htm

[GOPBasher]

8. Yeah, I tend to believe something like that, too.

Maybe reincarnation, maybe a "purgatory" of some kind, a "temporary hell," but not for eternity. God will make sure we are all back with him in the end. That means everyone. This makes more sense to me. Or else, it would come down to, What religion did you happen to pick in your lifetime? I just can't see it that way.