I bet you never thought you'd see my ugly mug around here.

[varkam]

I've probably pissed some of you off before if you've ever ventured into R/T. Traditionally, I've been pretty vocal about my atheism (and anti-theism, to boot). You are probably wondering what I'm doing here. Your guess is as good as mine.

Most of you probably don't know me well. I'm 23 years old, and I've been an atheist for probably the last seven or eight years. In my younger days, I used to be Baptist. I've also been battling addiction for the past year, or the past ten, depending on how you define "battling"; I hit bottom last October.

I've always kind of liked my atheism, as if I had something figured out. So imagine my surprise when I found myself today, on my knees, praying. I have no idea what God is, or even if God is. I don't know if this means I can't be an atheist anymore, or if it means I'm a Christian, or what. I guess I can worry about labels later.

I don't know why praying occurred to me, I guess it was an old reflex that never quite died. Suffice it to say, I don't think I'm in danger of joining up with the Baptists again, or any denomination for that matter. I guess that's something that's going to take time to figure out.

I guess I wanted to post this here to see if anyone else has gone through this before, to ask for advice. If not, then thank you for reading in any event.

[elshiva]

1. Dear varkam, you are not ugly!

Thank you for posting this because it makes a lot of sense to me. I've always believed in God and have always been an Episcopalian/Jewish, but I have always tried to stick up for the atheists and agnostics.
When I was in high school, I defended this classmate who was an atheist against this annoying Baptist guy by saying, "Freedom of religion means freedom FROM religion as well!" I really stand by that!

Again, your post is polite and honest. Have you ever read "Why God Won't Go Away?" That has an example of a man who is both an atheist and "spiritual." He meditated and he did not believe in God. Praying does not show that one believes in God or not. A lot of it has to do with focusing on what is in important in your life. To me it shows that a person is not completely content with the surface of matters. Of course secular humanism and science can and are noble ways of thought that can lead to ethics and a deeper life with or without a belief in God.

Another thing I liked about your post is that it is not judgemental at all! I am not familiar with your other posts, varkam, but you did NOT make fun of religion or atheism. Personal invectives do NOT advance an arguement. Just be honest and attack the ideas in the post, not the poster.

Thanks again, and feel free to post more in this forum.

Good health!
edited: Grammar

[varkam]

7. Thanks for that

I'll be sure to check out that book. What you said makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

[TreasonousBastard]

2. That's intense, and a lot of people have gone through similar...

experiences. I've been there, although not exactly the way you describe.

Prayer takes many forms, and doesn't have to involve God. Buddhist prayer, for instance, has little in common with Pentecostal prayer.

This experience could be a reflex from the old Baptist days, but it could also be a way of digging deep into yourself-- a form of meditation, if you will. If you haven't had much experience with forms of meditation or introspection it's possible that you could have reverted to "prayer mode" in a time of crisis.

Once was a time when I talked a lot about "mystical experiences" that could have been anything from direct appearances of God to symptoms of schizophrenia. (Or really good acid.) I still think we have them and I think we still don't understand them.

So, you can have your atheism and your prayers. Forget the Baptist prayers of worshiping and making demands on God and think of the "prayers" that are internal-- speaking to no particular god, but using that time to understand yourself better. Even if prayer by definition is to mean communicating with a higher power, that "higher power" need not be a god, but simply those many things none of us understand.

Like the concept of infinity. Or what lies beyond the end of the universe.

[varkam]

8. I think that's what has been bothering me

I know I needn't understand what "god" or my higher power is, but I just feel like I should or that I desire to. I guess it doesn't matter though - I've got a long time to figure that out. I also think I'm doing a bit too much hand-wringing over labels - I just shouldn't care. Maybe that's actually what it is, like you said: just the things that none of us understand. Thanks for your post.

[shrike]

3. What Elshiva said

Also, it may be that you needed comfort, strength -- from the universe or from something deep within you, not necessarily God.

Certainly this does not mean you're not an atheist anymore (heavens, I can't imagine they'd throw you out of the club. :)) Nor does it mean that you are Christian. Maybe, as I've said, you felt you needed strength, for whatever reason.

I pray for strength, btw, and only strength, never for things.

[supernova]

4. Welcome, varkham

It's not strange at all that you would pray. I agree with TB, praying really is a form of meditation, if you prefer to think of it that way.

If there's one big gripe I have with R/T is that the debate there so often tries to reduce our relationship to the cosmos -- you don't have to call it "God" -- to pissing contests about inconsistences in sacred texts. (any of them) As if the inconsistencies alone invalidate the relationship. They don't.

And no, I would'n't turn baptist, either. :P (Full disclosure: Presby possibly on the way to UU or Quaker)

You're obviously looking for ways to cope with your addiction. Medidation is very helpful in centering, and calming the mind. I use it myself because I can be very anxious at times. It doesn't mean that you are talking to God, it just means you looking for ways to sort out your feels and thoughts in ways that are healthy rather than destructive.

Please feel free to talk to any of us. :hi:

[TreasonousBastard]

5. The path to UU or Quaker...

is a common one, and has been mine.

Missouri Synod Lutherans are conservative enough to give Southern Baptists a run for their money, and pretty much drove me out of the church. It took years to end up in a Quaker meeting where things seemed so clear. Now that I'm living a hundred miles or so from my Meeting, there's a UU church a couple of blocks away.

On a recent discussion of Quakers with no local meetings, it was mentioned that most of us tend to find UU churches.

One struggle many of us have found on this path, though, is that while the lack of doctrine and dogma allows us to breathe more freely, it also imposes much more discipline on our own thought-- we don't have preachers guiding our beliefs, or often enough not even answering our questions.

[varkam]

9. I am looking for ways to cope with my addiction.

You're right. I've been through hell, and I know that it might not even be over. I'd really like to think that it's all in my past and I'm done with it, but then I wouldn't of needed to pray. If I have to pray and meditate to keep from going back there, then it's a small price to pay. All I know for sure right now is that it has been a sober day.

[okasha]

12. The old "one day at a time"

really does seem to work, and not just for addictions. Whatever helps you get through the day without relapsing--prayer, tap dancing, running--just do it and don't worry about labels. Religious and spiritual experience is unique to the individual. Yours will never be exactly like anyone else's, and no one else's will be exactly like yours.

[varkam]

16. Yes indeed

That slogan is something I'm trying very hard to keep in mind. I'm going through a sort of withdrawl, and it can be overpowering if I think about having to stay sober tomorrow and the next day and the next and all the attendant withdrawl. But, if I can realize that I just have to go through the withdrawl today and not worry about tomorrow, then it becomes a lot easier.

As Lennon said, whatever helps you make it through the night is alright. So I'll pray and write and read and meditate to make it through. Anything is better than going back to my old life.

[supernova]

17. Have you tried journaling?

I don't mean the journals we keep here on DU or blogs at all (unless you want to) I mean sitting down with pen and paper or a private file that you don't share, and just writing out your thoughts as they come... whatever they are.

That's very helpful also.

Here's the technique that I use. It empties out a lot of thoughts that I tend to obessess about. When I see them written down I can let them go :


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freewriting">Freewriting

[varkam]

18. I do

I try to write every day, even if I don't feel like I have anything to say. I keep a few seperate journals for different topics - one of them being just for events that happen and thoughts that I have and another for "working the steps" as well as meditations on my addiction. I find that it helps me immensely in finding a sort of balance.

[Critters2]

6. No need to sort out the particulars quite yet

Just feel free to hang around here. I agree that you can worry about labels later (but my church is the best--so you'll want to visit our table in the exhibit hall! :) )

Pull up a chair, and get to know us. We're okay. Not as lively as the Lounge, but a pretty fun bunch.

Glad you found us :hi:

[varkam]

10. I know you all are more than okay.

It's odd, in the time I've been here there is no one that I can think of that I would consider an "enemy". I don't know if I can say the same for others when I come to mind, but so it goes. :)

[varkam]

11. Thanks.

I just want to say thanks to everyone for posting their thoughts. Your words have helped me get my head screwed on a little bit better about this, and I very much appreciate it.

[elshiva]

13. You are more than welcome.

It is great to get the viewpoint of other people about religion, not just those people who believe in God.

[nosillies]

14. Thanks for your wonderful post.

You have reminded me that sometimes all we can do is literally fall to our knees and admit that we just can't do it by ourselves anymore and that we need a break. It doesn't matter who we say it to or what words we use, it just matters that we let go with our hearts and minds and quit trying to be control freaks.

I really needed a refresher on that lesson this week, so again, thanks. You'll be in my very personal/not out loud/addressed to some vague higher power prayers!

[varkam]

15. I'll take any help I can get.

It used to be that I'd be rubbed the wrong way when someone said that they would pray for me. Now, I realize that I should just be grateful that there are people out there that think enough of me to want to help - and that I should take whatever help I can get. So thank you :)

[54anickel]

19. You're not the only one that needed a refresher on that lesson. Thank you

to both you and Varkam. That's exactly what I needed to be reminded of today! It's like this dark cloud I've been lugging around with me lately is beginning to lift. Thanks again.