Please, those who would post here

[realisticphish]

In the past few days, there have been several bizarre flame wars in here, based mainly on individual conflicts, i.e., one person called someone something, then got called something back, blah blah. Fine. If you have a problem, I just humbly ask that that you deal with it via PM. I don't want this to turn into an all-christian version of the religion forum.

And, I'm not saying that person x was right, or wrong, or whatever, I'm not taking sides, and i'm not going to get pulled into an already ugly situation. I just ask that everyone, on both sides, keep this forum as clean as possible, for those who simply want to peacefully discuss their faith. Thank you

[RevCheesehead]

1. Thanks, phish.

Peace be with you.

[Kat45]

2. Amen and amen.

[elshiva]

3. Amen!

And Blessings!

[Cuban_Liberal]

4. Amen.

This is supposed to be a supportive forum, y'all...

[Maat]

5. See link below, RealisticPhish!

I agree with you.

This forum is a warm and welcoming haven in which we can discuss spirituality-related issues - not a place to intensely argue about who is right or wrong, or whether or not relgion is a 'myth.'

http://www.interfaithalliance.org/site/pp.asp?c=8dJIIWMCE&b=447561

Realistic - above is the link for Interfaith; as I probably mentioned before, I'm organizing a local meetup.

Check it out - read 'About Us.'

[realisticphish]

7. thanks for the link

damn... no chapters here in columbus, but there is one near where i am when i am not at school

[Maat]

8. They are probably counting on us to start them.

I received a great deal of info. from their field rep.

I've decided to start as a meetup (club).

If things really get going, we can incorporate/organize as our own 501-c-3 (organized chapter - and affiliate of the national org).

I'm really involved with the local Democracy for America, so I'll have to get involved with IA slowly.

And I'm also involved with Americans United for Separation of Church and State; my hubby says I'm becoming quite the little activist (this married ol' mom in her 40's). Just having my second childhood.

Take care!

[Maat]

6. Now, we are back on an even keel ...

with this post.

[Texasgal]

9. Amen!

I am so gald this group is here! I know that I may be seen as a distruptor, but I am not. I was just simply defending my integrity. I am Christian, and I am proud of that fact.

This is a support group, however, Skinner made a very good statement on how this group needs to operate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=120&topic_id=32695&mesg_id=32719

I hope that we can start over and move on from the BS of the other night. I am ready.

Peace.

[RevCheesehead]

10. I'm willing to talk.

I'm not yet willing to forgive.

My beef isn't with you, Texasgal. But as long as people will continue to come into this group for the purpose of disrupting it, I will speak out.

I think that Skinner's remark cuts both ways.

If you come in peace, then welcome. Perhaps we can find reconcilitation, if we work at it together.

[Texasgal]

11. I come in peace.

I am not here to distrupt. I believe that Skinner's comment does work both ways.

I also believe that the the problem only increased by complete disrespect for others and complete violation of DU rules.

I am willing to talk as well, maybe not forgive as you say, but talk.... yes. I think that the only way this can be avoided in the future is with clear and respectful communication from all sides.

I do appreciate your welcome and your commintment to talk and find reconciliation.

Regards,
TG

[RevCheesehead]

12. Thank you. It's a good place to start.

As I said before, I have no personal dispute with you.

Forgiveness is rarely (if ever) instantaneous, especially when feelings are hurt. But forgiveness is a Christian principle which is fundamental (sorry for that word), in order to fully understand and more authentically "live out" our faith. Jesus makes it clear that those who refuse to forgive others will not be forgiven by God. Forgiveness also has to be practiced, not just talked about.

Unfortunately, one of the things Jesus didn't say was that forgiveness is a process, not a simple task. Forgiveness takes time, patience, and commitment. I am prepared to work on forgiving, and hope you are willing as well.

It takes a great deal of humility and introspection to examine one's actions and "fess up." Confession is not easier for pastors, I can assure you. Ordination did not remove my humanity, and I am just as susceptible to a wounded ego as anyone else. I also come with my own baggage that influences what I see around me. Some of my personal demons showed up that night, and I don't want to admit that: not to you, not to myself, and most certainly not to God.

I have spent a great deal of time re-reading the threads from that night, trying to piece together a chronology of events, and trying to figure out what happened and what went wrong. After two days, I still don't know.

Let me begin by saying I am sorry that you were personally attacked. I do not condone the actions of that person - they were inappropriate, and a violation of the DU rules.

But I believe it was equally inappropriate for the argument from GD to be linked to this group. I believe that in one of my first replies (either to you or someone else), I said that I was not only prepared to listen, but also to help her find a more constructive way of expressing herself. That became impossible when "outsiders" entered into the group, because she felt she was being attacked in her "safe place."

Although I did not see the full thread in GD, I saw most of what happened. The posts which I alerted on were deleted. I also saw firsthand what happened in this group - I saw all of the posts before they were deleted. They, too, were inappropriate, and I'm sorry if it appeared as if I was defending her actions. I was not. I was trying to restore calm.

PLEASE HEAR THIS: When a person is traumatized, they need a place where they can retreat, regroup, and take a break. That is one of the purposes of this group: to provide a safe haven, free from attack. I think if you look at the responses from the group members, you will see that concern was expressed, but so were words of caution. Our intention in these kind of situations is to listen, be compassionate, and PUT OUT THE FIRE. That member was in full-blown panic-mode, and clearly, was not able to rationalize.

What you saw as "defending your integrity," I saw as a brutal gang-rape. I am sorry if that offends you, but that's what it looked like to me. I am also distressed that this issue has spilled out onto other areas of DU. I can assure you that I am not attempting to stir up trouble, rally the troops, or any such nonsense. Where I have seen trouble, I have hit the alert button.

I am also angry that the content of the now-deleted threads is still being discussed - two days later. It looks like gloating. At the very least, it seems to me to be immature and in poor taste.

In regard to the other thread in this group: I posted a message to XXXXX, on Monday night, immediately after she was tombstoned. I simply asked her to contact me, to let me know she was OK.
*I was concerned for her mental health, because I saw warning signs of suicide.*
There was no hidden purpose, other than pastoral concern (that's an occupational hazard - or a gift). I will also add that I posted a nearly identical message in the WI forum, at the same time. My intent was simply to make sure she was safe.

When I saw the responses to my post (all of which appeared the day after the incident) I was really pissed. I hit the Alert button, but when the posts remained, hours later, I took my concern to ATA. After doing so, I was surprised to see that the entire thread was not locked, but deleted. I have no way of "proving" that my original post was sincere. It was not addressed to anyone else. It was not an attempt at flame-bait, or to garner sympathy.

I can take taunting (I have a very thick skin - again, an occupational hazard/gift), but I do not have tolerance for the taunting of a former group member. In my rage, my "mama bear" reared her ugly head. I said ugly things to you, which I deeply regret, and I am sorry. I hope you will someday be able to forgive me for that.

*************

These are my own thoughts about what happened. I'm sure that XXXXX would have her own version of what happened, but I don't know. I am not speaking on her behalf.

I hope that we can find peace here. I also hope that this message will not be deleted. If this message is inappropriate, I am sorry. But I believe that since this situation has been aired publically, our attempts at reconciliation should be just as open.

Ultimately, I would say that the best thing that we have going is Grace. God certainly doesn't want us at each others' throats, and I don't want it, either. I'm also certain that DU would appreciate it, as well.

[Texasgal]

13. I can agree with just about everything you said.

I have no major beef with you or anybody in this group. My only concern is that people who have a hard time discussing things of a religious nature need to find another form of discussion. It is a heated topic and obviously a red-hot issue here on DU. But when you get to a point that you cannot communicate rationaly, it is time to discuss another matter, even though the religious discussions are are very near and dear to many of us.

This is where you and I differ, and I say this respectfully, please don't take offense. :)

PLEASE HEAR THIS: When a person is traumatized, they need a place where they can retreat, regroup, and take a break. That is one of the purposes of this group: to provide a safe haven, free from attack. I think if you look at the responses from the group members, you will see that concern was expressed, but so were words of caution. Our intention in these kind of situations is to listen, be compassionate, and PUT OUT THE FIRE. That member was in full-blown panic-mode, and clearly, was not able to rationalize.


When someone gets to this point, it seems fair to say that you may need to log off for a while and continue this discussion at another time, or perhaps stay clear of these discussions.

While I believe that this person was upset and emotional, I just cannot condone that type of behavior, it was surprising to me to see posters supporting that XXXX's behaviour.... Your post above states

"When a person is traumatized, they need a place where they can retreat, regroup, and take a break. That is one of the purposes of this group"

This is really where you and I see a difference, you see, Skinner stated that the groups were not designed for posters to come and complain about different aspects of DU. The argument started with religion in GD and ended up with full blown name-calling in the religious forum. While I understand that XXXX may have been upset, this board is not the place to come and complain about other DU'er's. It wasn't just an isolated incident either, I have seen many posts by XXXX that have started off by complaints of threads elsewhere here on DU.

Perhaps we would all feel better about this if this was done privately in e-mail or PM's. This is the only point I am trying to make.

I hold no anger, this is not my personality, my wish is that everyone come together and learn a lesson from this.

I hope that I have not offended, if I have I am sorry. I hold no grudges, and I am just trying to convey my thoughts on this respectfully.

Thanks for listening.

[RevCheesehead]

14. No offense taken.

Let me be clear: I do not condone the behavior, the accusations, or the content of those accusations.

Some people need to come to a "place" to regroup. I have different places where I go - some on DU, and many other places NOT on DU. I am certain that one of us would have made that suggestion - in time. I, personally, would have a hard time hearing that suggestion from someone whom I perceived as being "an outsider." (No offense intended.)

Maybe regroup isn't a good word. Time-out may be better. A time for quiet and self-reflection. That's what we do, as Christians. That's what we do in worship. Again, an occupational hazard/gift.

Self-reflection leads to confession. Confession leads to forgiveness. Forgiveness includes an understanding that one will do their best not to repeat what one has done ("go your way, and sin no more."). A Christian community, by definition, holds one another accountable to the teachings of Christ.

Matthew 18 gives a clear example of how we are to act. We were not "following the guidelines," so to speak. But that kind of realization doesn't come "in the heat of the battle." And again, when the "battle" came to the group, it hurt, rather than helped. We didn't have enough time to get to the accountability stage, because we were interrupted in that process.

I am trying to help restore peace and dignity to our group. Before Monday night, we were a relatively obscure group that most people ignored. To my knowledge, we have never before had a post deleted or a thread locked. We really are peaceful people.

I don't spend my time surfing the groups, looking for trouble. If someone wants trouble, they can find it anywhere. There are plenty of examples where people have violated rules - it is not an exclusive pattern of behavior. Skinner has told all of us time and time again, "That's what the alert button is for."

In one of our threads (now deleted), I specifically mentioned to the group that we needed to be careful about a)what we were discussing, and b)how we responded - because we had to be sure we were acting in according to the rules. I do not want this group to be shut down because we think we are above the rules. I take those rules seriously, and have consulted them many times.

Have I violated rules? Of course I have (but not intentionally). I am not proud of that. However, once I realize what I have done, I will apologize, not just to someone I have hurt, but also to the Mods and the Admins.

I am very thankful that we have been given permission to form this group. We wanted a safe place to discuss our faith, and that is precisely what I am doing here. I am not taking this discussion to other parts of the board, and hope that others are doing the same.

I believe that this kind of discussion is helpful, and not counterproductive. Perhaps it may be time to begin a separate thread about conduct and etiquette. That is not an exclusive topic to Christians, but we (read "I") literally do need to practice what we preach. I think that this group can have that discussion here, in a thoughtful and civilized manner, and stay within the rules.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I think we have found common ground, and I am grateful for that. Please know that I hold no grudge against you at all. I hope you feel welcome enough to return here, if you wish.

Peace to you as well.

[Texasgal]

15. Fair enough.

I appreciate your response. For you to take the time out to rationally discuss this proves to me that you are a person that seeks peace and harmony on this group. That is admirable. :)

I agree with you on many points, as I think that we have come to a mutual understanding of how these types of discussions can get out from under us.

I am perfectly appeased by your explaination, and I believe that at this point we can all go back to understanding each other and discussing rational topics about religion as a whole.

I believe that I am now finished with this particular topic.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Oh, and thank you for your invite, I believe I will stick around! :)

Regards,
TG

[RevCheesehead]

16. Peace?

:hug:

[Texasgal]

17. Peace....

:)