A "Modest Proposal" for Photo Contests...

[regnaD kciN]

O.K., it's late, and I'm probably not thinking all that clearly, but all this brou-ha-ha ("Brou-ha-ha? Ha ha ha!") about new rules for photo contests, and the intense debate, in thread after thread, over what should be allowed or not allowed, seems to have not exactly fostered a more-civil atmosphere for what had previously been a refuge for DUers when things went crazy elsewhere. So, what if we solved the problem by not having them?

I'm serious. What about if we were to declare a temporary moratorium, and have the "Crazy Heart" contest be the last for awhile? The winner would not be required to host a June contest, but would agree to run the next one, should we decide there will be a next one, sometime in the future. (I'd still be willing to keep up the seasonals, if there was any demand for me to do so, but even that is not necessary.) Let this group exist for a few months without a continuous cycle of topic-choice/submissions/preliminaries/finals/winner-thread, and see how we do without that as a motivating factor. At that point -- say, in September when people are getting back to the non-summer routine -- if people miss the monthly contests and want them back, maybe we can reach a determination about what the rules and processes should be.

In the years I've been a member of this group (since early 2005), it seems to me that there's always been a contest as a motivating force for people to get out and shoot. There have been times when it seemed that the contest(s) was/were the only thing going on in the group; at other times, they have merely been one thing among many. Sometimes, I think it might be interesting to see what happens if the contests are no longer there -- whether people would still start photo threads on this or that, or get in discussions about techniques, or just hold non-judged "assignments" with no voting and no winners? Maybe this would be the right time to find out. What do you think?

No Irish children were harmed in the making of this Modest Proposal.

[blueraven95]

1. Again, although I haven't been around much, I'm going to put my 2 cents in

I think this is a good idea. When I first mentioned the extreme post-processing issue, I had no idea it would turn into such a huge debate, and it might be a smart idea to step back a little.

To be honest, and I realize this will be a little ironic coming from me, but I've never been all that comfortable with the contests. There is a part of me that feels that they might stifle creativity. I would personally prefer to see more of the challenges that we used to do, along with more critiques, etc. I really wouldn't mind seeing many more "tutorials" where some of our more advanced photographers, if they were willing, would help explain some of the more complex aspects of photography. I think that would be really useful and interesting for the casual weekend photographer.

Anyway, whatever we decide, I will continue helping with the seasonal contests, etc, as we decide we want them.

[warrior1]

2. test

[Mira]

3. Answering the question: What do you think.

First:
I would miss the contests, because they are a lot of fun to me. I learn from them, and from our interactions connected with them.
I think all the things Blueraven95 mentions could still be possible, and encouraged, along with the contests. None are mutually exclusive.

Yet I can understand if for some of us the contests have gotten to be a pain and a drain, maybe we need yet another poll to get the votes from the photographers who like to participate and take the temperature of the group at large.

Maybe those who are weary of them could sit them out for a while.

I'll watch how the responses come in to this question by regnaD kciN and I might start a poll on this question if we don't otherwise come to a consensus.


Second:
After all the back and forth about the "rules" we would not be well served to pack up and give up without settling and finalizing the issues.
We can see this through now much more easily while the issues are still on the table, than to unpack them later when we have to all but start from scratch.
If we decide to abandon the contests for a while at least let us do so with the rules in place for when we start again.

==========

Overall this has ballooned out of proportion I think, it's a bit rudderless in arriving at pulling together conclusions, and though not all opinions can be served and incorporated, we have enough information in bits and pieces to add the few sentences that have gotten lost and re-establish our modus operandi for the contests.

None of this is worthy of disrupting our happy group, we can play together and solve our problems as they arise.
All of this started over the issue of the frames. We got that solved, and we can now move on to the other stuff, maybe one at a time, and put it behind us.

[blueraven95]

5. Mira -

while I don't disagree that it is possible to do both, I do think that the contests have, in a lot of ways, taken over. This leaves most people with very little time for anything else.

The idea of voting for the "best" photograph has always bothered me to some extent. By making everything a competition, we lose some of the cooperative and giving nature that, I think, makes art so strong. I realize that judging art based on other entries is a common practice around the world, but personally, it makes me a little uncomfortable. I think it takes away some of the fun of sharing and exploring what we can do. I'm not saying, necessarily, that we should stop the contests. I just think that refocusing for awhile might be a good idea. It would be interesting to see what develops without them. Another option may be to switch to bi-monthly contests, (possibly with the seasonal contests on off months, to deal with some of the contest fatigue).

Regardless, I do think we should finish hammering out the rules now. We are so close that it would be a big waste of time if we didn't.

[Mira]

7. I would go along with any consensus,

and frankly, I think I like the idea of bi-monthly as you suggested best of all.
That's having your cake and eating it too.

I also very much appreciate what you are saying otherwise, and agree fully that other areas we could be involved in are by default neglected by concentrating on the contests so much.

So, my vote, should we have one, will go to bi-monthly, with seasonal contests either in the lineup, or on off - months.
On reflection, I think that would retain the enthusiasm for all involved, photographers and the people who like to see the work and vote on it.

[MissHoneychurch]

4. I don't know

I always see the contest as an advertising of our group, showing others our work, showing them how much we enjoy taking pictures. My mother loves seeing all those pictures. Even though she isn't a member of DU she lurks at the Photography group and enjoys our pictures. The contests are part of it.

[Celebration]

6. To me this has not been contentious at all???

Just everyone expressing their opinions, politely. I think the discussion has been productive and interesting. We could also easily solve the whole thing by going to the principle of the host being czar. As for the contests, sure they have their issues. Personally I don't put all that much stock in the results. More than that it is just a vehicle to show off our photos. It isn't a requirement that people enter. Anyone who needs a break can take one.

Just my two cents.

Edited to add that bimonthly sounds good to me, mainly because things like storms don't always cooperate with our timing. It would keep people from having to rely on archives, assuming we knew the theme a month early.

[sandnsea]

8. I do not like this idea at all

There are no new rules for the photo contest. There is defining the rules that have always been there so that new people can't claim they've been blindsided by having a set of rules that didn't actually include all the rules.

[Mz Pip]

9. I'd miss the contests

I really enjoy watching the photos come in for each different theme. It's always interesting to see all the different takes on a particular theme. Also, they make me think and evaluate my photos in an entirely different way. For me a photograph is a jumping off point, not an end. I do digital printmaking for my art and use photos in my work. These contests make me look at photography from a more "purist" point of view. I've been doing these challenges since 2006 and they have made me a better artist.

And hosting the contests made me learn how to deal with all that HTML stuff. :-) If frames were mandatory, I'd have to learn how to do frames. :shrug:

I don't think our discussions have been contentious. Quite polite actually.

I also get the sense that the DU members in GD kind of enjoy these contests. Perhaps it gives them a momentary break from all the arguing.

[CC]

10. I see the contest as a valuable and constant

asset to the group. I don't always enter, sometimes I have nothing and sometimes the contest is filling fast so I would rather give others (specially newbies) a shot at it. I also look at the contest as the one constant, even if everyone is busy in real life the contest draws them in for a visit. That may be a reason why it seems like it takes over at times. The contest also pushes people out of their comfort zone, brings in new people and teaches us some things if we are open to it. It is a great way to see how to general non-photog public looks at things. Even if they don't comment the voting trends have a lesson. Then again I don't look at it competitively, I really do think second place is the first winner and that any one that enters wins. :shrug: I would guess that those with a competitive nature might find it lacking but then there are thousands of other contest out there they can enter. Most with monetarily valued prizes.

The rule thing is so close to being done it would be unfair to just stop now. It needs to have something easy to understand specially for new people so they don't feel like it is stacked against them. At the same time I would suggest that getting overly nit picky on the rules for our contest is a bit silly. We aren't winning anything but a good job pat on the back (or ego stroke)and extra stress as host for the next one. The wording of minimal post-processing was fine with an addition that the host has the last word. If there are photos people think are over post processed those people need to say something, contest or not. Poorly processed photos people are mentioning (past or future) may be intentional but they may not be. I don't know what each of you really sees on your screen. If someones screen is off and they don't know that it is or are trying to work around it not saying something isn't helping them. I would hope that anyone putting photos up in this group would have thick enough skin to take the critiques well and know it is with care that we give our opinions.

Just my two cents and probably not worth a half pence but there you go anyway. Better than :banghead: my head.

[Celebration]

11. Well said

I am glad you took the time to write this. I agree with everything you said, except I usually enter them. The contest part of it is just an excuse to post them in gd as far as I am concerned.

The important part of making the host the czar is that it settles all disputes automatically. And if you don't like the host, it changes the very next month.

[JeffR]

12. I'm really torn on this idea, though I think it has some merit.

However, I don't see that making such a decision could or does flow from the current discussion about rules revisions. And FWIW, I don't see anything in any of the discussions and polls that has been less than civil, and I consider myself hyper-sensitive to such things to the point where I rarely post in the big so-called forums here anymore. I think the discussion has been reasonable, nuanced and very interesting. And also long overdue.

That aside, perhaps a break would be in order, but certainly not for the sake of the GD audience. The contests, monthly and seasonal, get lots of votes and a huge number of thread views. I think people need them as a break from the repetitive tedium of what passes for discussion in GD. I think we all need more beauty in our lives.

I love the contests, though my favorite part of them is watching submission threads fill with entries. No matter the theme, there are always surprises, and much to delight and much to provoke reflection. That's what art should do. It's as near as I can get to seeing the world through others' eyes, and I really cherish it. It's also nice to win contests, but it's only a little shot of ego juice that wears off fast, and I'm indifferent to whether I win or not. I suspect that applies to most of our current, recurrent contest entrants.

I would like to see much more in the way of things you cite in your last paragraph. I've been concerned about a drop-off in day-to-day posting of new stuff, discussions of technique, and so forth. We can never have enough of that here, and lately it seems all too rare. Take this with a grain of salt, though, as my own worm's-eye view of DU these days is that it generally bites, and the Photography Group becomes disproportionately important to me, being as how I'm a sentimental fool and all.

[HappyCynic]

13. Contests...

I'm with those who really enjoy the contests. They definitely help me in a couple ways. The first is giving me a theme to shoot so I don't end up shooting the same things all the time. It helps push my limits. The other thing I find helpful is seeing how others approach the theme. It tends to give me ideas on ways to expand my horizons.

One thing that's been missing in the last few contests is the delay between the announcement of the theme and the actual submissions. The lack of a delay gives it more of a rushed feeling, as you don't know when the submissions will fill up. It's also a bit more intimidating when you haven't had a chance to shoot anything yet and the submissions start filling up with fantastic photos. Maybe reintroducing a delay would would help. Of course, that means choosing the theme has to be done more quickly.

Just my $0.02.

[Tindalos]

14. I like the contests

I haven't been posting much lately due to lack of time, not fatigue. The contests are fun and they push me to try new things. When I get tired or busy, I just sit out for a contest. One thing I've noticed that the contests have been slipping later and later into the month, making them a bit rushed. Obviously that can't be helped in months like this were it runs concurrently with the seasonal contest but I think we should shift the time-table back earlier next month. I really enjoy getting out and exploring the theme, and seeing everyone's posts showing their non-contest entry photos. I think a lot of DUers would be disappointed if there were no contests. It would be nice to have other types of posts about techniques, challenges, etc. Maybe the contest winner should have the option of hosting a contest or arranging some other kind of activity?