hanging onto the good while letting go of the bad.

[mopinko]

i mostly lurk/post here because i have a bipolar kid. not that i am the sanest person on the planet, but not clinical. but, i am having some serious marital problems, and we are both starting therapy with our own psychologists. we tried a couples counselor, it was hell.
needless to say, it is a scary thing. i know that we are embarking on a long road, with no idea where it will end. the thing is, in the meantime, we have a family to take care of, and a lot invested in it all. we really do love each other, but there is very little trust. i am trying hard to hang on to the affection that we have, without leaning on him for support. (it is mostly me pushing this, i think he could go on in denial forever.)
so, what i want to know from all of you is this- how do you hang on to the things you need, while making change? i know that we will both be depending on our therapists help, but that is only an hour here and there. in the meantime, we have each other, right there, but not. we have to still get along, but also pick apart the relationship. i sort of liken it to when i used to fix my own car. i wasn't a very good mechanic, although i usually managed, but every time i picked up a wrench, i was filled with fear. would i break i worse than it already was? would i end up costing myself more than i would pay a mechanic? usually i just told myself that it was better to wreck it in my driveway than to have it break on the highway.
i can't go on with things the way they are, but i am not sure where we will end up will not be a lot worse. especially for me, since he will still have a good job, and i will be a 50 year old woman who hasn't had a paying job in 20 years. i think we will be ok, in the end, but i don't know.
how do you survive this uncertain, interim, twilight part? how do you get through the days, when you know that change will take months?

[DemExpat]

1. Boy, do I know what you are talking about, Mopinko....

I am 54, and still, the father of our 3 kids and I live together in an uneasy but 'comfortable' situation while every couple of months or so the tension reaches a point when I say, "I really can't go on like this any longer"....and we discuss splitting up, or dividing this house up into 2 separate apartments,....that kind of stuff.....

I swear it is like on some level we are soul-mates and best friends, while on another level mortal enemies, or at least VERY incompatible.

Painful stuff! And frustrating. We both strongly sense that there is some strong karmic relationship that we are involved in now, if you are into this type of view of life it is fascinating to delve into sometimes!

We are also at the age where we are not really interested in separating to be free to meet someone else, AND we both aren't thrilled with the idea (practically too) of living alone after all of these years.
Yes, I have read the books on co-dependency. And yes, we both have had serious mental health issues most of our lives, although he has had the strength (or ability to 'ignore' his pain enough) to go out and work in society and make a decent living for us and our children, while I have not.
So we are in a similar situation as you, but our kids are young adults now - they turned out to be much healthier pshycholgically than my husband and me, which gives us both joy.

So, this means I have little advice for you really! :-)
All I can say is, try to stay focussed on the little good things that you have and share while working on the big things.
Keeping a journal of my feelings saved me, I think, because I would pour myself into this diary and give all of my negative, mostly misplaced feelings a place, while after closing the notebook I could get on to "real life" dealing with and enjoying my family.....if you know what I mean.

I wish you the best with this - it is a good sign that your hubby is willing to do this with you - so not in complete denial! :-)

:hug:

DemEx

[mopinko]

2. it's always good to know you are not alone. so thanks for that

he has had his denial pretty much beaten out of him in the last year. he would hang on to it if he could. it, and the defenses that protect it, are the only part of him that i have a problem with. it has just caused us to be unable to make the important decisions that we need to make. if we do manage to work something out, chances are that there will be lingering resentment about it.
his parents ended up with a separate but not separated situation, and i think that we would go there, at least until the kids are gone. i don't think that i would bother with another relationship, but i as almost positive he would. if for no other reason than to keep himself from accepting his fault in the breakup. he could tell himself that he tried, but he just fell in love. he couldn't help himself. i am 50, but he is only 44. and in a powerful job. i'm sure he just has to start putting out signals, and it will happen for him.
our kids, too, are good people. for a long time we consoled ourselves that we were an order of magnitude better parents and partners than either of our families of origin. that's not going to keep me warm forever, tho.
:hugs: to you too.

[DemExpat]

3. LOL.....I know just what you mean when you say he has had the denial

beaten out of him......and believe me, I know it is no laughing matter, but sometimes it is best to see the humor in situations, don't you think?

My biggest problem with my partner is that he is willing to settle for superficiality and shallow contact,(safer ground for him) while I see that kind of interaction as pointless, a waste of my time, and irritating. :argh:

:hi:

DemEx

[mopinko]

4. without humor, i would be dead

that is one thing we have going for us for sure. he is very funny. and we both can laugh at ourselves.
his safer ground, unfortunately, is my shaky ground. cuddling scares him, while sex is safe. :argh: men.

[EFerrari]

8. Hey, don't EVER put down laughter :)

"My wife went to Berkeley and she's Salvadoran. Makes her a cross between the Unabomber and Lorena Bobbit."

:)

[EFerrari]

6. Is he sleeping around?

That's really blunt, I know, but if we're going to talk about it, need to ask.
:hug:

[mopinko]

10. not that i know of

i don't think so. but i do fear it. it would be such a good way to keep his denial intact.

[EFerrari]

12. Okay. Well, it's always been helpful to me to at least know

my fears. Because they always messed me up 'way more than anything that was really happening.

I can handle reality. It's all that other stuff, like fear and worry that really screws me up. :)

[DemExpat]

15. I am the same....and this realization frightens/saddens me too...

that the reality I create with my fearful and negative thoughts IS much worse than what reality can present me....

In emergencies I perform excellently, but when it comes to daily minute to minute creation of a God-given day, I fail miserably in my eyes because I do not make of it all that I know I can.
In emergencies I can turn off my negativity, fear and anger and perform from my heart with only love, sharp thinking, and compassion, but in normal life I am somewhat of a mess....
......very low energy.

:D

DemEx

[EFerrari]

17. Hey, that's our very low energy mess and nobody better mess with it

Isn't that just the way people are built? We go along, then a crisis comes us and we mobilize?

The trick is to be kind to ourselves during dailiness,isn't it? It's not easy because there's no buildboard saying, "BE GOOD TO YOURSELF TODAY".

And for some reason my brain is able to produce that 'way better than I can ever actually do it.

My PTSD gets between me and most things. But I'm learning to appreciate the things I CAN access, like my bit of experience, like reading you all, like light. :)

[DemExpat]

21. Hey, sfexpat.....I am nutty enough to appreciate what I have

experienced!
I would like to experience a life sometime without this extra dimension (to put it in a positive light..:-)), but I would not want to give up all that I have learned from this struggle and pain!

I see it as karmic knowledge that I have built up this life as a culmination of past ones too...

That is another subject entirely, and a different DU Group! :7

My PTSD gets between me and most things. But I'm learning to appreciate the things I CAN access, like my bit of experience, like reading you all, like light. :)

That says it well....that your PTSD gets between you and most things....that describes the perpetual state of being quite well.

I don't really see "cure" as an attainable goal with our experiences either, it is wonderful, satisfying, and happiness to find ways to live a good life despite the baggage and filters we carry with us.

And I long ago got rid of my "poor me" look at my life...

Sharing life with an animal, too, is ecstasy sometimes, is it not to you?

:hug:

DemEx

[EFerrari]

22. I dunno. You'd have to ask

my seven cats and my good angel Buddy: now twelve yr old Lab Angel.

I can't even think of them as "animals". They've been patient and healing and funny and infuriating. And just what we needed.

Just ASK me for some crazy Catlady stories.





:)

[DemExpat]

5. Just curious, my husband and I tried a series of couples

councelling too some years back and I felt it wasn't getting us anywhere...

You mention that you and your husband are not dealing with serious mental health issues, but that couples therapy was hellish....and I wonder why you think this was so?

I would think that in your case couples therapy would be the best choice for action.

DemEx

[EFerrari]

7. Fwiw, one of our therapists allowed himself to go ballistic over

our situation. When Doug was in crisis, the therp called me and said, we shouldn't be married, that his family would never forgive me and mne would never forgive him and that he was going to tell Doug that.

Mr. Helpful, no?

Today, my family is helping us buy this little closet we live in and Doug's mom is as supportive as possible. My two sons check in all the time.

Imagine that.

[DemExpat]

9. But surely there are some very good couples therapists around?

Plus the added factor some of us have of one or both partners having serious mental health problems making it that much more difficult, don't you think?

I was wondering about mopinko since she said that she and her husband have no (I gather meaning besides normal stresses, hormonal swings :-), and almost universal male/female differences) mental health probs.....

You guys beat the odds, sfexpat - wonderful to see that you as a couple, as a family, and with your extended families are doing well.

:hug:

DemEx

[EFerrari]

11. Oh, sure! There are some really wonderful therapists out there.

Mine was only an intern when I started with her. No badges at all. But she was careful. And I'm really grateful to her, will always be.

I guess what I meant to say is, when we're really uncomfy, let alone in crisis, we tend to look at anyone with initials after their names as our "experts". And sometimes, just having initials doesn't make you helpful.

We are the experts of our own lives. Sometimes, it's a little hard to hang onto that. :)

I don't know if we beat the odds. I bet a lot of people do, we just never hear from them.

[DemExpat]

13. That is for sure - that having those initials isn't always helpful.

And that we all are experts in our own lives.....the people that were the most helpful to me, though, were those who helped me see something in a slightly different light - changing everything!

I don't know if we beat the odds. I bet a lot of people do, we just never hear from them.
:-) Here I also meant something slightly different - beating the odds in the eyes of the "outsiders"....

My life too is one of "beating those odds" of expectations of disaster.....getting pregnant was a "disaster" - yet it is the most positive and beautiful thing that could have helped me - saved my life - when I was well on the road to self-destruction.

Many other examples as well...:-)

Here is to tenacity even when you don't know what you are doing! :D

DemEx

[EFerrari]

14. Especially when you don't know what you're doing. lol

:grouphug:

:)

[mopinko]

18. with my daughter

we have run into some real lulus. and i know a few folks personally, therapist, etc. that are so sick themselves. i know a woman who is a psychiatrist that is an animal horder. she cannot bear to exterminate the mice that are destroying her house, and who ate her out of her condo. that is what makes all this so freakin scary. you do have to always hold on to yourself.

[EFerrari]

26. Yes, we really do. And that can be hard. But it gets easier with

practice or something.

I'm still here, lol, is all I know. :)

[mopinko]

16. well

what is a mental health issue, is a good question, i guess. i think that he has some serious emotional issues that he needs to deal with. i, of course, am as solid as a rock. haha.
i guess i draw the line at whether or not you are rational, living in the real world. whether the things that are upsetting you are real, and whether your response is proportional. you can be sad and damaged, and make a mess of your life. is that a mental health issue? no pill will make that better. there is nothing "wrong" there, but a real scar over a real hurt.
i hope we will get back to couples therapy eventually. but he is just not ready. when he feels threatened, he has a set of defenses that are really something. so, couples therapy was a deluge of nastiness. and this counselor was not in control, at all. when i sat there and insisted that he was lying about something, and he was not challenged about that at all, i decided it was just not a safe place for me. usually he is as honest as the day is long. but when he feels threatened, the world is all black, i am all evil and he will say anything. i just can't stick my chin out for any more of that.
he may be somewhat depressed. he sure has a lot bottled up. but he functions well, for the most part. where the line is, i do not know.

[DemExpat]

19. Yes, I do understand the blurring of the line of mental health/unhealthy..

Even though I have been through the mill of mental health institutions and treatments ( I stepped off of this 24 years ago when I got pregnant!), I see issues in most people that are not exactly healthy in my eyes....I just take it for granted that everybody has something to deal with mentally or psychologically in their life - if not now, then later on.

In my family there were no examples of mentally very healthy specimens of human beings! :silly:

I can joke about it all now...but this makes it so hard, if not impossible, to create new ways of relating in our grown-up relationships!

[mopinko]

20. i'm trying to take heart

in the progress we have made through the years. i see him a lot differently as i have figured out some of what goes on with him. like, i have seen things as issues of control, but just recently saw the fear that makes him need control. so, i feel that i have another way to deal with this. i used to feel compelled to fight back. now i see that maybe i can comfort him instead. i think that this has helped him to reach for help. so, maybe we are on an upward spiral for a change.

[DemExpat]

23. Here is to progress and upward spirals, mopinko!

:toast:

Truly I hope that you guys find a way to hang onto the good while releasing the bad. I believe in hanging in there together.....either out of weakness or out of strength, I am not sure which it is...probably BOTH.

And I am sure that you know it will remain ups and downs for the ride.

:hug:

DemEx

[mopinko]

24. ups and downs

i'm sure. i hate roller coaster, tho. oh well. :toast: anyway.

[DemExpat]

25. I hate them too.....but sometimes I admit a totally predictable

existance would be mighty boring to my mind.

See you around, and feel free to keep us posted....

:hi:

DemEx