The Asperger's Syndrome support thread

[TrogL]

I'm at my wits end. I've talked about Asperger's syndrome before and tried to laugh some of it off as excessive geekiness but I'm only just coming to realize how much it's ruled and ruined my life, and the incredible amount of patience those around me have shown in putting up with me - particularly my partner.

I've been talking about it for awhile with him and he'd been kind of pooh-poohing the whole idea until I showed him this (http://www.co-brass.com/articles_counseling_as_adults.htm) and then it all started to fall into place. Using this, he was able to begin to understanding some of my jarring approaches to socialization and relationships and how I just plain think different...waaaaay different.

This article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A52269-2003Jan13¬Found=true) explains some of the weirder aspects of my rather strange childhood (obsession with helicopters, clueless with kids' names, socialization problems in the classroom, only friends other "weird" kids).

Over the years there's been a constant background noise (irony intended) of people questioning why I "won't make more of an effort" to:

• smile
  
• be "nice" to people
  
• do routine socialization tasks (hello, goodbye, hold doors)
  
• engage in small talk
  
• remember people's names and faces (and birthdays yada yada yada)
  
• display appropriate body language
  
• tell funny jokes and stories in an appropriate way
  
• "mind read" when people appear to be happy, sad, angry (and subtler stuff)
  
• make appropriate eye contact (ie. look at talker, not stare)
  
• do touchy feely stuff
  
• have a variety of interests
  
• get my nose out of a book
  
• break off my latest obsession (which can go on for years)
  
• display appropriate dress and grooming
  
• engage in a conversational methodology other than lecturing
  

I've been seeing a psychologist who isn't necessarily right on top of the issue, but she's learning fast. One technique she's started right away is to laboriously teach me "scripts" of small talk like the "good morning, nice weather we're having" script - which I still screw up.

My parents, perhaps suspecting something was wrong, attempted to shelter me from the adverse results of some of my behaviours (eg. by driving me to school when a bus was available) and encouraged others, like compulsive reading. This may not have been a good idea, but in the 50's-60's, who knew.

My first wife met me in a cafeteria. I was sitting wearing a parka (indoors in non-winter weather) with the hood up. My body language was probably screaming GO AWAY!!!!! but she ignored this and led me painfully through a conversation.

I proposed marriage the next day. This was literally the first time a female had spoken to me in the context of anything even vaguely resembling a "date" and I figured I'd better strike while the iron was hot. She was highly amused and somewhat alarmed (with damn good reason - in hindsight) and adopted a wait and see attitude. We did marry, but some years later. In 20-20 hindsight it was a disaster waiting to happen. We were both outcasts (for different reasons) clinging to each other for dear life. The skills that had worked well in childhood (retreating into books) didn't work now. Eventually things fell apart.

I don't even want to talk about my abortive teaching career. You can just bloody imagine. :scared:

My second wife and I met through a mutual friend - outcasts introduced by an outcast. Things collapsed as above, it just took 10 years to do it. Along the way we had kids who began to be diagnosed within the autistic spectrum, leading me into research on the topic, and leading various doctors to start looking back along the genealogical tree - to me (and her).

A third relationship had begun to go along the same track when both my shrink and my partner's shrink noticed something wrong and began asking the right questions. By now it's pretty much confirmed. I'm an Aspie with plenty of Aspie-related problems, and ordinary counseling isn't doing the trick - I just don't "get it".

Now comes the heavy work of them trying to understand the way I think and how to explain things to me so that I understand, and me trying to unlearn everything I've taught myself and learn a whole new set of stuff that I don't even have the vocabulary (textual or emotional) to even categorize, never mind verbalize.

I don't know what to think or feel by this point (irony intended). Some days I just want to crawl under a rock and tell everybody to leave me alone - which is, of course, the problem.

[liberalhistorian]

1. My 12-year-old son has

Asperger's Syndrome, diagnosed when he was seven, and I know exactly what you mean. Fortunately, when kids are diagnosed young, they get a lot more help so they don't have nearly as hard a time of it as an adult.

But for those like yourself, there was no such help, and there's still a lot of misunderstanding and lack of knowledge out among professionals who are supposed to deal with things like this. They especially don't know what to do with adults who have it.

You are definitely not alone. I posted a thread a couple of weeks ago on how I was starting a non-profit Asperger's organization, and one of the areas I'd like to get into is helping adults with it as well as children and teens. Feel free to PM me anytime you need to vent or talk.

[TrogL]

2. check this out

I looked at this after I finished writing this rant.

http://www.emedicine.com/ped/topic147.htm

Individuals with Asperger disorder may have particular difficulty in dating and marriage. Boys and men with Asperger disorder may decide to marry suddenly without the dating and courtship that typically precede a union. Individuals with Asperger disorder may want to marry despite the lack of awareness of the many social interactions that usually lead up to matrimony.

*sigh*

:bangheadagainstwall:

[Wickerman]

3. My wife works with kids with Aspergers

Thanks for telling your story - it helps me understand somewhat more. I've sent your thread on to her, I know she will be interested and might know some resources. thanks, best wishes, LB

[SheilaT]

4. My 21 year old son

has Asperger's. We didn't figure out what it was -- just thought he was quirky -- until he was 18 and half way through his senior year in high school.

When I read up on Asperger's, it felt as if they'd studied him before they wrote the DSM criteria on AS.

Because I didn't realize he would need a lot of support systems, he flunked out of his first college, despite being phenomenally bright. His single biggest problem is an ability to seek out help when he needs it, as when he develops academic difficulties. And he's especially afraid of me, his mom.

Right now he's living at home and going to the local junior college and still needs a lot of monitoring to make sure he gets his schoolwork done. He should be transferring to a state university -- in engineering -- in the fall.

He's never dated and doesn't seem to have any clue how to talk to girls. But he's a nice guy, and because he's not a jerk, unlike so many young men his age, girls tend to like him, although they don't seem to see him as a potential date.

Thanks for starting this topic again.

[TrogL]

6. You may need to teach him how to date

I know this sounds ridiculous.

The thought of a straight date is beyond my comprehension. The few "dates" I did go on ended up being tech sessions or drinking binges. At least you can teach him the rules for "go for coffee" even if he can't do the bar scene.

I'm bi/gay and managed to spend hours in the most notorious pickup bar in town as the brand-new twink (OK, this was years ago) and miss all the signals, and ended up getting dumped by the guy I went with (I begged him) and went home alone - a mortal sin in those circumstances.

[hunter]

11. Yeah, like he'll listen to his mom!

Agghhhh, horrors if my mom sees this! But she'll agree.

I survived University only because some good geologists there "adopted" me. I think I was sorta like a pet rock. They stood behind me whenever the dean was threatening to kick me out of school, and they somehow got me back into school whenever I dropped out.

I didn't really have a love life, but I NEVER EVER told my mom about the assistant manager of the local fast food place. She'd feed me at closing time and drag me along with her to very strange movies. Once she introduced me to her parents as her boyfriend. She didn't want a boyfriend, but her parents thought she needed one.

I had even stranger relationships until I met my wife. She already knew my dad, so I didn't exactly have to introduce her to my family. They noticed.

Now I'm married with kids and a house in the suburbs. That was some sort of miracle.

[TrogL]

8. seeking out help

Aspies are noted for not seeking out help and/or having problems with "authority figures" like profs or parents because they do not correctly understand constructive criticism. They black and white it into a blanket condemnation of their eternal soul.

"Negative reinforcement", of course, is a writeoff.

Some (like me) also don't understand praise and consider it undeserved, embarrassing and threatening. No, I cannot explain.

Some people have something I call the "parent voice" or "teacher voice" - a high-pitched, emotive manner of speaking used only when speaking to children (or the elderly or otherwise incompetent) than can come across as false-sounding. Department store Santas do this voice as well and can be terrifying for Aspies. Same with puppet shows. I would run screaming in terror from Punch and Judy. I'm wondering if this be why he might find you (and others) intimidating.

[AlienGirl]

36. The teacher voice

My boss uses it constantly. He talks just like Mr. Rogers, and for the longest time I was terrified of him because of it.

I don't know why, but that tone of voice scans as very intimidating to me.

Tucker

[zonmoy]

69. Makes me wonder if this aspect of aspergers

could have sent me on the path to becoming a paranoid maltheist.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. TrogL

No matter what your difficulties with dealing with this problem, you are OK. I know this causes you pain because you feel like you don't understand what the rest of us are thinking and feeling, you are still OK. If learning these techniques make your life better or less lonely that is great. Do it for you. But remember there is nothing wrong with reading a lot and being reclusive except that it makes you unhappy. It is not like you are choosing to have this condition.

[KamaAina]

7. You are not alone

oh wait, that was the title of that cheesy Michael Jackson gala the other week...

But seriously, several DUers have "come out" with Asperger's and/or autism while others are "Asperger-curious", that is, they may have some Asperger traits but are not sure whether they qualify for a diagnosis.

As you might expect, given our natural affinity for all things computer (Bill Gates has even been rumoured to have AS!), there are tons of resources out there online:

Asperger OASIS:
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

ASPEN of New Jersey:
http://www.aspennj.org

AHA-AS-PDD (Long Island, NY):
http://www.aha-as-pdd.org

Independent Living on the Autistic Spectrum (Netherlands):
http://www.inlv.demon.nl
(largely in English; contains much Aspie humour!)

Autism Network International
http://www.ani.ac
(last updated 6/1/03)

I seem to recall that when the world autism conference was held in T.O. in '92, there were several people from Edmonton there. Of course Canada does not have Centres for Independent Living on the U.S. model (hey, we've gotta be ahead of you in something, right?), but a general disabilities services agency in Edmonton might be worth a try. (If nothing else, you can educate them...)

For what it's worth, I was so fried by the end of work on Monday that I actually cringed when I saw a friend -- a tall, blonde, female friend at that -- walking towards me at the bus stop, because it meant that I actually had to be civil to her for a few seconds!

[TrogL]

9. There are some places in Edmonton

and I suppose I could drive in, but they're mostly pay-per-view and I'm happy enough, so far, with the shrink I've got.

There was an AS conference in Edmonton a few months ago but I was out of town.

[put out]

10. I admire you for being so open about this.

I work with AS kids, quite a few of them. You are far from alone.
It is an enormous gift to those who care for AS people, to have someone like you articulate your perspective on life and your struggles. Thank you.

[TrogL]

13. Is there anything about them you can tell

without breaking privacy issues?

[put out]

16. Probably I can't tell you anything that you don't already know.

You sound as though you have a good grasp of this disorder. Please correct me if I say anything that seems insulting.

I am trying to gain some understanding of what life looks like to an AS person. The ones I am with are primary school age. They talk to me, but it's not conversation. They mostly talk at me, about whatever is interesting to them at the time. To have conversation, I initiate it with a comment that invites a response. Then, I suggest an appropriate response. Sometimes, it happens. When we can have two or three things said, back and forth, and each comment relates to the one before it, it is a very good conversation. I tell them so and thank them for sharing some time with me.

Do you think this is O.K. with a grade school kid?

The first time an AS person asked me how is my son? I almost cried. I thought it was a big step for the person.

On reading this, there is a lot of "I, me, my". Don't mean it to come across like that. Please continue to share your thoughts.

[TrogL]

17. This is very Aspie from what I've read

Ank (my partner) noted earlier this evening that one good way to have a conversation with me (if you can call it that) is to steer me towards one of my obsessions and let me rattle on for awhile.

I have great difficulty in most conversations because I get confused when there's a change in topic. A typical weather -> wife and kids -> how about them Knicks conversation baffles me.

My boss considered it a breakthrough when I successfully negotiated the "how are you" script without delving into medical jargon and remembering to ask after his health.

Previous to this, he would say "how are you?" and I'd get stuck because I don't have any idea how I feel most of the time.

It's not that I don't care about other people. It's that I can't make the connection between caring feelings and the spoken vocabulary to deliver it. I'm also afraid of screwing it up (like I have in the past) and making matters worse.

I'm very fortunate that people understand this in my workplace. They're perfectly happy (as far as I can tell) to shout "hello, TrogL" as they go past my cubicle and not get a coherent response. One strategy I've used is to make a big joke out of the whole thing. When I come to their cubicles I knock as if there's a door there or do a silly wave. Maybe they just think I'm wierd or they're used to dealing with geeks as there's plenty of them underfoot.

[TrogL]

12. Is this an Aspie thing?

When I was young, eating all the food off your plate was a big issue. Some stuff, like creamed corn and Harvard beets, I absolutely hated to the point of throwing up. Generally I hated anything mashed or slimy.

To get through the meal I worked out a strategy. I would eat all the thing I hated the worst eg. Harvard beets, then work my way up to the thing I liked best. My parents objected at first but then got used to it.

One time we went to visit my great-aunt's. She served a turkey dinner with all the fixings including mashed potatoes (yuck), squash (yuck), dressing (yuck), gravy (yuck), jellied salad (yuck), turkey, then desert. I had plotted to do my usual routine. I got through two bites of mashed potates and she exclaimed "but he's not eating his squash", so I ate some squash "but he's not eating his dressing" so I ate dressing "but he's not eating his potatoe" so I ran screaming from the room. It took my mother half an hour to calm me down and she never was able to come up with a believable explanation for my great-aunt.

[TrogL]

14. another Aspie moment

When I was in high school we had a popular teacher. A year later he moved away and his wife had a baby. A few months later the baby died of crib death. The class got together to propose what should be sent to the funeral. Among other things, somebody proposed sending a fruit basket.

TrogL: I'm not sure that fruit basket is really appropriate. We have flowers at a funeral to remind us of the beauty of the deceased. If we have fruit, isn't it going to suggest eating a dead baby?

One girl almost fainted and two ran out of the room to the bathroom to be sick. Most of the class ended up shouting at me and the teacher sent me out in the hall.

Turns out the girl who almost fainted had already sent the fruit and was trying to get retroactive permission. She talked to me the next day and was trying to find out if I was being vicious and insulting and seemed relieved to find out I simply didn't 'get it'.

[SheilaT]

15. Oh my goodness!

I can easily imagine my son saying something like that!

That tendency to focus on some detail the rest of us consider irrelevant and then run with it . . . wow!

I no longer take any kind of offense at anything that in other circumstances might seem to be criticism of my parenting techniques. A child with Asperger's is so different that normal parenting isn't possible.

You know how one problem of an AS person is that they can't read body language and non-verbal cues? I find I am less and less able to correctly read my son's body language and non-verbal cues. I constantly say things to him like, "I think you don't like my suggestion," about whatever, and it turns out that I'm wrong, he really does like it. I find I have to get a verbal confirmation of everything.

I've talked to him about dating and talked explicitly about the rules and how he should behave, but he's never dated. The high school he went to the social scene was more likely to be kids going out in mixed groups, and his last two years his social group was the knowledge bowl team and they did quite a few things together, such as go to movies. They graduated in 2001 and all went to different colleges and never get together any more. And the junior college is strictly a commuter school, so there's no social life there. No wonder he can hardly wait to go off to university in the fall.

[TrogL]

18. My NT daughter drives me nuts

She tries to read all sorts of stuff into my facial expressions, body language and non-verbal cues and it just isn't there.

If I cross my arms she thinks I'm upset and I just like to cross my arms 'cause it feels nice. If I slouch in my chair she thinks I'm upset but I slouch because the chair's ergonomics are wrong. If I look at her for more than half a second she starts reading all sorts of stuff into my facial expressions and most of it's just me gearing up the sneeze or scratch.

I'm baffled by other people who can read all sorts of stuff into facial expressions and I just don't get it at all. One of Ank's favourite movies in "Nell" and about half the movie seems to be two people staring at each other and trading facial expressions and it makes no sense whatsoever. The kitchen scenes in "Joy Luck Club" are the same.

[TrogL]

29. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=624815#652333 post 183

There's no way in the world I would understand any of those facial expressions. Now I realize that A-Schwarzenegger is pulling my leg (at least I hope he's pulling my leg otherwise I am going to get worried) but there's been thousands of other times when someone has confronted me (yes, that's what it's like to me) with a facial expression and I just don't have a clue.

Movies drive me batshit that way. If you've ever seen "Le Mans" with Steve McQueen (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=5641500&cart=173040022) there's several places in the movie where all action and dialog stops and everybody just stands there trading various facial expressions and I'm just thinking :wtf:

I have the same problem with the ending of LOTR RTK with all that stuff with Sam and Frodo and Bilbo.

I wish there was a second set of closed captioning that translated facial expressions.

[AlienGirl]

33. OH YEAH--food textures!

There are foods with textures I absolutely can't stand. The mashed potatoes in elementary school would gag me.

I have sensory integration issues, pretty obviously.

Tucker

[Wordie]

107. Ohoh...I thought everyone was like that! For me it was the lima beans.

[RainDog]

19. thanks for starting this thread

I have a sixteen year old son with aspergers. He was dx'd when he was in third grade, but he displayed typical A.S. things from his first week of birth.

He and I were just talking about dating yesterday. He really wants to have a girlfriend, but he cannot get a date. I know he has girls who like him as a person, but if there are any that would go out with him, he doesn't know it, and I wonder how much he is able to "read" in the girls he does "ask" out. (he said he doesn't ask them face to face...he writes them a note.

I've talked to him about being social-- asking people about themselves and their interests. But he generally talks at you...and talks...and talks...

but most often he quotes things...entire tv shows, or entire ball games.

I love my son with all my heart, but sometimes I just have to tune him out because I tell him, repeatedly, that I've heard that one before, and yet he goes on.

On the other hand, he's as sweet and naive as can be and is very much a hugger. At the same time, he wants to be by himself quite a bit to enjoy his obsessions with creating baseball teams and imaginary oscars and things like that.

My big issue with him right now is driving. I don't think he's mature enough to drive...and he has real spatial issues, which isn't the same with lots of AS people, so I hear.

He's not mathematically inclined...but very, very verbal/memory inclined. Geometry is a disaster, and so is riding a bike (his balance seemed affected.)

I've done things like get him to carry things up stairs, etc. b/c that's supposed to help, but frankly, it scares me to let him practice drive, even tho he has a learner's permit.

he took drivers ed but did not pass the whole thing (in other words, he got his permit, but still not his license.)

He's also scared to drive, and goes too slowly. He's very much about observing the rules, whatever they may be, to the point of not functioning well...like when you have to at least maintain the speed of other cars to avoid problems from slow drivers...

btw, have you ever tried to take Fish Oil supplements to see if they can help you with some AS issues? You have to take fish oil, not flaxseed, etc. because you need a specific type of EFA-

eicosapentaenoic acid, or EPA. In children, the amt of EPA per day is 500 mg, according to recent studies in the UK.

Anyway, I'm curious to know if anyone else here has tried it to see if it makes a difference for various things. I've just starting taking it too.

there are some typical symptoms of EFA deficiency, which I'll go find in one of the recent articles I was reading.

also- have you ever tried "sensory integration" things with your partner? You can get something like a body pillow for this.

Lie down with the pillow on your body (obviously not on your face) and have your partner lie on top of the pillow, allowing more body weight until you say stop.

believe it or not, this can be very calming for some people when they feel overstimulated by sounds, or inner turmoil...

If you have any coping techniques for various situations that might be useful for my son, I'd be very grateful if you'd share those, too.

and btw, my son has said things that were just as much of a faux pas as your fruit/baby statement. those moments can also lead to some wonderful creative ways of seeing the world, not just ones that are socially embarrassing.

Where I live, there is a teen asperger support group. Do you think you might find one for adults near where you live?

[RainDog]

20. EFA deficiency

FAB Research Factsheet 002 - Physical Signs of Fatty Acid Deficiency

Date: 2003 Alex Richardson and Marion Ross

· Various physical signs are associated with deficiencies in these essential fatty acids. These include excessive thirst, frequent urination, rough, dry or scaly skin, dry, dull or ‘lifeless’ hair, dandruff, and soft or brittle nails. Raised bumps on the skin are particularly characteristic. (This is called ‘follicular keratosis’ as it results from a build-up of hard, dry skin around the hair follicles).

· Research has shown that these fatty acid deficiency signs are unusually common in people with ADHD, dyslexia and autistic spectrum disorders.(1-7) They have also been linked with behaviour, learning and health problems in boys with and without an ADHD diagnosis,(4) with the severity of reading, spelling and related difficulties in dyslexic children(5) and with visual, auditory and other features of dyslexia in adults.(6) This and other evidence has led to treatment trials to find out if supplementing the diet with fatty acids may help in these conditions.

· Many other features or clinical signs can sometimes reflect deficiencies or imbalances of omega-3 or omega-6 fatty acids. These include:

* Allergic or ‘atopic’ tendencies (such as eczema, asthma, hayfever etc.)
* Visual symptoms (such as poor night vision, sensitivity to bright light, or visual disturbances when reading - e.g. letters and words may appear to move, swim or blur on the page)
* Attentional problems (distractibility, poor concentration and difficulties in working memory)
* Emotional sensitivity (such as depression, excessive mood swings or undue anxiety)
* Sleep problems (especially difficulties in settling at night and waking in the morning)

· IMPORTANT: Any of these signs can have other causes, so it should never be assumed that fatty acid deficiencies are responsible. Always seek medical attention for any such symptoms, and before taking food supplements or making any other major dietary changes.


File Download:
View or Download this Factsheet here (as PDF)(14.02 KB)

edited to add this from The Guardian-- talks about children and tantrums, but that's not the only, or chief application for EFAs.



Ian Sample
Wednesday January 14, 2004
The Guardian

Researchers who have studied the effects of fish oils say they are most likely to have an impact on children whose difficulties are at least in part due to disorders such as attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), dyslexia, autism and dyspraxia (dyspraxics often have difficulty carrying out complex, sequenced activities or may be mildly clumsy). There is some scientific evidence that an imbalance of certain fatty acids, which happen to be found largely in fish oils, may contribute to many of these. Further studies have found that dyslexia and the inattentiveness and impulsiveness associated with ADHD can be improved by fish-oil supplements. A study into the effect of fish-oil supplements on more than 100 dyspraxic children in Durham is nearing completion.

There are some tell-tale signs that can indicate an imbalance of Omega-3 fatty acids in the diet. Allergy-related conditions such as eczema, asthma and hayfever are more common, as are poor concentration, depression, excessive mood swings and undue anxiety. Others with imbalances can experience difficulty getting to sleep at night and visual disturbances when reading, such as words and letters moving around.

Fish oils seem to help because they are rich in a particular type of Omega-3 fatty acid called Eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA), which is vital for the proper chemical functioning of the brain, mediating hormones, the immune system and blood flow. Just how EPA might be helping struggling children is poorly understood though. "All we know is that if people take these capsules, their behaviour, learning and mood can sometimes improve quite dramatically," says Dr Alex Richardson, an Oxford University-based expert on the effect of food on behaviour and lead scientist on the Durham study. "But Omega 3 can affect many aspects of brain function, so these benefits could reflect more efficient chemical signalling, or just an increase in blood flow to the brain."

Thanks to processed foods, most modern diets are now woefully lacking in Omega-3 fatty acids and this may be where the problem lies. Oily fish and seafood are the only foods that contain ready-made EPA and while the body can make the compound from other Omega-3 fatty acids found in leafy vegetables, walnuts, brazil nuts and flax oil, it is an extremely inefficient process.

One difficulty is that to have a beneficial effect, high doses of EPA are required - children in the Durham study received 500mg of EPA a day, the equivalent of around 30g of pilchards. Try getting a child to eat fish every day and it will become clear why a supplement might be the answer.

[TrogL]

21. I'm already using EFA's

I've got an Omega-3 pill that I take. I'll check to see if it's got EPA's.

[SheilaT]

24. Not to discourage anyone

from making very real improvements in their diets, but I want to say that any improvement in the symptoms of AS just from consuming fish oils or avoiding something else, will be subtle at best. The idea that there's some magic ingredient or combination of foods that will make us all better is . . . not a good one.

Let me explain why I feel this way. Both of my sons suffer from alopecia areata. It is an auto-immune disorder that causes hair loss. They both have it in its most extreme form, alopecia universalis. They are both totally bald, everywhere. Older son, the one with Asperger's, does have eye lashes, but nothing else. And younger son doesn't even have that.

Every year when I go to the alopecia conference there are people there who are absolutely CONVINCED that the hair will grow again if only they take the right combination of vitamins, or eliminate some dreadful something from the diet. If it were that simple, the combination would have been long ago figured out.

So please, eat well, get plenty of rest and fluids, but Asperger's is a real fundamental difference in how a person thinks and behaves and it's not there because the mom ate or drank the wrong thing when she was pregnant, or because some essential nutrient is missing.

Maybe I'll start an alopecia areata thread.

[RainDog]

26. I don't expect a "cure" and frankly

my son is who he is also because of his Asperger's..if you know what I mean...it's part of who he is as a conscious human being.

but he also has some anxiety and some obsessive-compulsive problems, and has been depressed on and off in the last few years.

according to what the Brit researchers are reporting --and I'd also talked to my younger son's psy doc about this last year -- there are indications that an EFA deficiency can exacerbate certain behavorial/affective issues.

I've also been dx'd with depression and have taken EFAs before. They seemed to work, then, as I noted in a post below, I switched to the veggie-based EFAs and it didn't seem to help.

So, I don't expect miracles, but sometimes, like with a lack of seratonin and its correlation to some things, or dopamine and it's relation to others, a person's body chemistry can use a little help sometimes.

[TrogL]

22. Aspie coping strategies

NT's wouldn't believe the stuff I do to get along in daily life. Some of it I've borrowed from various "organizational skills" workshops, others from strategies for the autistic.

I have a horrible time with names and faces. I've forgotten my own name, address, phone number, birthday, sex (that's a story in itself) and what car I drive. Therefore, name tags and business card holders are a godsend. When I approach someone's office I look for their name on the office door. Some people put a business card up as their office identifier. Some people have a stash of business cards on their desk. Whenever I walk to an office, I pray there's something available so I can catch the person's name, otherwise I'm sunk. It just happened a moment ago. I had to refer to the occupant of the office down the hall and took a complete blank. I conspired to move the conversation down the hall so I could peak in his office, but I didn't have my glasses on so I couldn't grab his name off a diploma, so while nobody was looking I nipped into his office to get the name. I've known this guy for 12 years. A few weeks ago I sent an email to my boss that was actually intended for my father-in-law (both have the same first name). Fortunately my boss has resigned himself to weirdities like this.

I volunteer at bingos. This means wandering the floor selling bingo cards, calling out bingos and retrieving winnings from the cash area. Most of the other volunteers know many of the customers by name. I don't even know the volunteer's names, never mind the customers. I panic every time I have to call a bingo because there's a very good chance I will have trouble getting the winnings back to their intended recipient. Remember the face is a write-off. Therefore, I memorize what they're wearing and count the number of steps and directions I take to get to the cash counter with their receipt. Then I walk back the same way and look for the article of clothing. So, I might arrive at the window mumbling "three aisles down, 5 people south, red hat". If along the way the bingo caller says the colour of the next card (green) and calls a number (B2), I'm sunk. I've lost the colour because I heard "green", I've lost the location because I heard "two", so I have to fall back on generic spatial sense of where I was and look for somebody who doesn't have a receipt or looks like they think they're supposed to get money. Usually another customer takes pity on me and points. Other than that I love working bingos because it's a predicable routine with set rules and I'm good with cash (used to work in cash offices and banks) and there's little opportunities for socialization because everybody's concentrating on the bingo caller.

On public transit, I prefer to stand unless there's at least two space's worth of seats available so I don't have to interact with the person next to me to determine if the seat's available. Even the transaction "is this seat taken?" can go horribly wrong. If there's background noise and the person responds anything other than a clear "yes" or "no" it gets garbled, usually coming out as "yull" or "neh" often accompanied by some sort of incomprehensible hand gesture. I can't tell if they're waving me into the seat or motioning that the seat is taken. It's easier just to stand.

At movie theatres, I send the kids ahead to pick out seats. I rarely go to theatres anyway because I can't cope with the background noise, the chewing noises, the uncomfortable chairs, the screen flicker and the lack of closed captioning. Other people complain that theatres are too loud. I like them loud because I have a much better chance of catching what people are saying if it's super loud. Remember, I've had my hearing checked. The audiologist says I have "phenomenal" hearing - right off the scale. I can hear bats squeak. I can hear whales move. I just can't understand speech except in perfect conditions, which is NOT what you get in a theater. Better to let them pick out seats and do that socialization and it's OK if they sit too close because I'm that much closer to the speaker system and have fewer distractions in front of me.

ATM's rule. The bank I work with allows passbooks to be updated at the ATM so I almost never have to interact with a live person except on the rare occasion when I finish a passbook. Even then I ask them for several at a time. Even the smallest disruption in the "script" throws me such as the teller asking if I want large bills. I just stare at her in blank incomprehension until she's repeated the question several times (usually because I lose a chunk of it to background noise). Here's what I hear.

• [Drawer closes] want [ka-ching] shills?
  
• Do you [siren goes past]
  
• [printer fires up] barge fills?
  
• My marge bills.
  
• [cough] large [sniff]?
  

Then I've got it. I can piece the sentence together from the other fragments. "Do you want large bills?". I repeat it back to her to make sure, then claim deafness (which is close to the truth in a warped kind of way).

I've become a master lip-reader. I didn't even know I was doing it until I spent a lot of time with someone who was constantly wiping their nose or rubbing their mouth or looking away while talking. I'd lose everything. As soon as they stopped doing that, it was like somebody had turned up the volume. I thought I was going nuts until I taped it. They were speaking clearly enough for the tape to pick it up, but I wasn't getting it unless I could lip-read the consonants.

The problem with that is that I end up staring intently, which throws people off. I also have huge problems with accents because I pick up the consonants OK, but the vowels don't match what I'm used to hearing.

Pitch is a huge issue. I have perfect pitch and I'm a very hearing-oriented person (ironically enough). I diagnose computer problems by listening to them. I can catch a hard drive going sour waaay before it starts kicking out diagnostic messages. I know when my car is acting up before the lights go on. I hear when it's low on oil or when the windshield anti-freeze is running out.

I pick out "tone of voice" based almost entirely on pitch. I hear people talking as a song. I happy person talks a "happy song" and a sad person has a "sad song". To avoid speaking in a monotone, I "sing" my responses. Normally this works fairly well. The problem starts when I'm confronted with someone from another culture whose *song* is different. Some cultures use a rising pitch at the end of every sentence. I will hear everything as question. In a previous post I talked about "teacher voice" where the person will screw up the pitches, the *song*, by trying to sound "happy" and "excited" when they're not. I get a mixed message and wonder why they're angry with me.

My partner is often baffled with my responses. He grew up in several cultures all over the world and as a result has a unique accent that totally throws me. He's also talking all the wrong *songs*. On really bad days the conversation goes something like this:

Ank: I [falling pitch] found something really [rising pitch] interesting.
TrogL: I don't understand the question.
Ank: I found something [rising pitch] really [falling pitch] interesting.
TrogL: WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME!!!

...and it all goes downhill from there.

Being from another culture, he has a different speech rate. I'm from Southern Ontario (with a Buffalo N.Y. overlay) and grew up among slow speakers who pause a lot for effect. He grew up in several fast-speaking cultures. I like to think between each sentence and compose the perfect phrase, he just blurts out any old thing. He ends up jumping in when I'm doing a dramatic pause or cogitating the next bon mot. When he speaks, it's coming at me so fast it feels like I'm being battered with axe handles. He's got a couple of budgies in the living room and a fan running and this adds to the background noise and my stress level. He'll ask a simple question and then I'll trance. The trance goes on and on and he's baffled because it's a really simple question.

Ank: How was your day?
TrogL: [trance] What do you mean? [Buying for time]
Ank: How was your [bird screech] at the office?
TrogL: [trance] I... [looks troubled]
Ank: Are you [rising inflection] OK?
TrogL: WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME?!?!?

*sigh*

Hence, I love email. I love BBS's. I love DU because I've got time to compose my responses, to read and re-read a post to make SURE I've got it right, and there's emoticons, which I prefer to smilies. I just wish there were more of them. I need a :bangheadagainstwall: emoticon desperately. My boss in the next cubicle gets upset because I'll send him an email instead of walking to the next door and talking to him. I'll get a phone call from a user and we'll have a lengthy conversation and reach a conclusion of what's to be done and I'll ask him to send an email to confirm because I know as soon as I get off the phone I'll have the distinct impression is that what he wants is to be sent a box of chocolates when it's really a network problem. Then I can read the email and find out what we were really talking about.

The smells. The smells.

A kid will shove something under my nose and asks what I think it smells like. It's become a standing joke. I don't have a clue. I can recognize five smells.

• hydrocarbon
  
• floral
  
• smoke
  
• yuck
  
• wet bathing suit
  

So if a kid shoves something under my nose and I get hydrocarbon with a whiff of floral I can make a wild guess that it's perfume. WRONGO!!! It's WD40. Ank likes to wear cologne. To me, most of it smells like gasoline with a bit of wet bathing suit thrown in. If I smell smoke, I have to make the assumption that something's burning on the stove 'cause I can't tell the difference. Ank will fire up incense and I'll run to the kitchen. I have a particular issue with the wet bathing suit smell. It drives me completely bugshit. At one point I was convinced it was a trauma-based memory so I spent a year with a psychiatrist and we couldn't find anything. Now I know it's a sensory integration issue. Of course, perfume counters are worth a panic attack and I've had to take the stairs at the office if someone gets on the elevator wearing "stinkum". Where I work there's a perfume ban because several of us have issues but that doesn't extend to the clientele.

OOH, see the pretty colours.

That's nice. I can't. Not usually. Life to me happens pretty much in black and white until something jars me to having to actually notice colours. I dream in black and white. When I get a migraine I can see the colours and it drives me batshit because "blue" sky is screaming cyan and "white" is the glare of a 30,000 watt spotlight and "black" is raving psychedelic indigo. The exception is a colour called "dusky mauve". It's sort of a greyish pinky purple. That drives me nuts, completely bonkers. Unfortunately, it's a favourite institutional colour for some reason. You'll find it on hospital walls. I can't win.

Don't touch me. Just don't. Get over it.

I can't stand being touched. I hate the feel of some fabrics. The feel of grit makes me want to punch somebody or break something. A slimy feel will make me want to jump off a building or out a window. One time when I was a kid I got an eye infection and my parents put cream on my eyelid. I totally freaked. I found the tube and threw it in the garbage and sat by the window all day waiting for the garbage truck and then cheered when it drove off. Problem was, I'd thrown out the dog's medication but my parents got the point and never tried it again. They also gave up serving me custard or Harvard Beets or anything else with a slimy texture. Occasionally I'm confronted with a touch-feely person who insists upon touching me while talking to me. They are taking their life in their hands (pun intended).

DiHydrous Oxygen. H2O. Water. Ugh. Yuck. Take it away.

Once upon a time I fell in a river. Ok, it was right at the water's edge and was about 1" deep at that point. It was traumatic and the story is I've hated water ever since. I'm not so sure that's the complete story. I'm not afraid of rivers. I'm not afraid of bodies of water. With a diving mask, I love being underwater. I just can't cope with it on my face or getting into it or being splashed or not being in control of situations around water. I doubt if I could distinguish between being splashed with a glass of water and being punched. I'm more afraid of squirt guns than I am of firearms. I'll avoid taking baths and showers until people start complaining. The water has to be the perfect temperature, the perfect depth, just the right amount of bubble bath and I need distractors like books and music and cats (fortunately they like to sit on the edge and play with the bubbles).

I've talked about my "uniform" - dress shirt, black jeans, leather jacket. It jacket is great because I love the feel of leather, and it's very VERY heavy. I'm never happier than when I'm wearing my leather jacket, even in summer, even in places where it's inappropriate.

Mom: Don't you want to take your jacket off?
TrogL: No, I'm fine.
Mom: But aren't you hot?
TrogL: No, really, I'm fine. I like it.
Mom: [sniffs] Have you had a bath recently?

Anyway, I was talking about coping skills and got off on a rant. For the sensory stuff I adopt a "check first" policy going into anywhere new. I avoid department stores with perfume counters. I'll rearrange my schedule to avoid rain or wear a parka in summer because it's got a big hood and it's heavy and comforting. It turns out that some people just like the feel of something heavy. At night I sleep under a heavy comforter. They sell weighted vests for kids because it helps them calm down. I use my heavy leather jacket. Alternatively, if I'm having a bad clothes day I'll just rip everything off as soon as I get in the door. Obviously I can't do this when the kids are around.

I can't cope with the latest trend in bathing suits - big, bulky floppy boxers. They don't feel right and air gets trapped under them and they're clingy when they're wet and ... :scared:. I love my Speedoes. Problem is, they're so out of fashion that it's hard to find them. Right after Christmas was the local store was having a bathing suit sale and they had $60 Speedos on at $5.00 each. I cleaned them out - probably a lifetime supply. Now I've got about 15 pair. However, a friend was telling Speedos are banned at some pools. Fortunately, I haven't run into this. It still feels a bit strange, though, to be at a big pool with hundreds of people around and I'm the only person wearing Speedos. I tell myself I'm making a fashion statement. Bullshit.

I have the same problem with underwear. I can't stand boxers or briefs. My choice is bikini or nothing. Often I can't find bikini underwear for sale so when I do find it, I buy a bunch at the same time. Because it's tighter than most underwear, it wears out faster so I'm always on the lookout for a fresh supply.

Ever notice I get fixated on things? I get into a flame war and just can't let go. I get posting a rant and it can go on for hours. I've been at this one all day. I've been fortunate to find work where I can get fixated on something and it's not a huge problem - in fact it's an advantage. I just keep bashing away at an issue until it's fixed or a supervisor tells me to get over it. Then I can move on to the next thing. It's all text-based and I've got everything set up so that I can rule the world from my desk unless something actually physically breaks.

Could you imagine me working at McDonald's? :scared:

I wouldn't be able to understand the customers because of the background noise. The constant new faces would drive me to panic attacks. Brushing up against other cow-orkers would make me crazy and the textures of the food and the constant exposure to water would make me want to break something.

Did you want fries with that?

[SheilaT]

23. Wow! Thank you for posting all that.

My son does not have most of the sensory overload stuff that affect you, but he does NOT LIKE TO BE TOUCHED. And I must capitalize and should probably put in bold, but I know you get the idea. Even as a baby he really didn't want to be touched, which made nursing him (I was really into it) an interesting experience.

He also has a lot of trouble if the script deviates from what he expects, and long before we learned that he has Asperger's we discovered that if we rehearsed things he could do much better.

He also cannot deal with sudden changes of topic in a conversation, and since I'm able to shift topics three times inside of one sentence, it can be tough on him. I promise, I try not to do it as much now that I understand his difficulty dealing with that.

How are you at talking on the telephone? He hates talking on the phone. I used to say I had the only teenagers in North America who never answered the phone.

[TrogL]

27. The telephone

The telephone is a disaster. Rarely can I handle a phone call longer than three or four minutes. I have to crank up the volume as loud as it will go to understand what people are saying at all. If it's a bad connection, it's hopeless.

When Ank calls I let him know when time's running out by saying "telephone panic" and he wraps it up or I have to call him back when I've calmed down. I never do any of the telephone closing routines because as soon as the "raw data" of the conversation is finished I want to get off the phone as fast as possible.

It's actually easier to deal with someone in person than on the phone because in person people pick up when I'm getting fidgity and will cut a conversation short or at least drop the small talk and get to the point.

I hate answering the phone. By the end of the day I've pretty much had it.


Morning:

Phone: Ring!
TrogL: ABC Industries, TrogL speaking, how can I help you?
Caller: Huh?
TrogL: ABC Industries, my name is TrogL, can I help you?
Caller: Is TrogL there?
TrogL: Yes, this is TrogL.

Afternoon:

Phone: Ring!
TrogL: WHAT!!!!!?!?!?!?!

[TrogL]

28. Closing routines

I hate long closing scripts. As I said, I don't even say goodbye on the telephone.

Ank used to drive me nuts. I would drive him to school and we'd be late and he'd need to get out of the vehicle and get into class but he wouldn't close.

TrogL: We're here.
Ank: Ok, you have a nice day.
TrogL: OK
Ank: I'll call you later.
TrogL: Um, don't you have class?
Ank: Yes, you have a good day at the office.
TrogL: OK
Ank: OK, good bye, have fun. [makes no effort to leave]
TrogL: You need to get out of the car.
Ank: What?
TrogL: You have a class. You're late. You need to get out of the car.
Ank: Why are you being so rude?
TrogL: I'm not trying to be rude. We had to rush to get here. You're late for class.
Ank: But I wanted to say goodbye.
TrogL: You've said "goodbye", you've said "have a nice day". GET OUT OF THE FSCKING CAR!!
Ank: I don't understand why you're so upset.
TrogL: [full blown panic attack/tantrum]GET OUT OF THE CAR GET OUT OF THE CAR GET OUT OF THE CAR GET OUT OF THE CAR....

[AlienGirl]

34. Same here!

I dislike talking on the phone for oh so many reasons.

First off, unlike you, I'm tone-deaf, and I will often have problems identifying the caller by voice. There are only a few voices I recognize immediately, and it's more the rhythm than the pitch that I "get."

Then there's the problem of understanding what the caller is saying. Background noise is even more of a problem on the phone than in person, so the caller's message might be garbled.

Then, there are non-verbal cues I've learned to recognize that tell me "shut up and listen" or "say something now." Since I don't get those during a phone conversation, there can either be awkward silence or I will end up talking over the other person.

THEN there are all those small-talk, hello-goodbye rules that I'm afraid I'll mess up.

Text is just so much more friendly for me.

Tucker

[RainDog]

25. Interesting, the things you share, and how you differ

from my son...and of course, everyone is different, but I've known quite a few AS kids, and they are all very unique in their uniqueness...if that makes sense.

My son can see the flicker of a light bulb, and for that reason, he hates the garage door light, which will suddenly turn off.

He has excellent hearing, as well. Sometimes when we would go to the movies, he would have to cover his ears because the sound was so loud it hurt (like Godzilla...which was too loud for me, too.)

He can hear things long before I can...people coming to the front door, that sort of thing. I'm constantly amazed.

Interestingly, his little brother was dx'd as bipolar (as is his dad) and they share some characteristics as far as sensory issues go, it seems.

both HATE shirts with tags...none of their shirts can keep a tag unless it's very soft. for years my older son (with AS) would insist on wearing sweats all through the year. I'd have to hide them to get him to switch to shorts..but he had to, because he'd get rashes from sweats in summer.

my older son has VERY limited likes for food (unlike his little brother, whose favorite veggie is broccoli, believe it or not..but my younger son says he's a "gourmet." (and also used to say he was a "tom grown up" because he thought he was so mature compared to his older brother..

my older son, with AS, LOVES acting..which I think is his way of learning how to be '"social" in a way-- as I said, he LOVES to talk about tv shows, etc. and drives others crazy because he doesn't get the "change the subject or stop" signals.

I simply tell him he needs to stop talking about something and let someone else have a turn.

but he is not one bit shy around anyone other than girls...and even then I think he's had to "learn" to be shy after writing love notes to girls.

His younger brother has always been terribly shy, and still is.

My older son also has an incredible sense of smell. Unfortunately, because he doesn't like so many foods, he also will gag if he smells or tastes something unfamiliar.

Unlike you, memory is his strength. He started reading when he was three, but it was because he'd memorized what so many words looked like, and it wasn't that he always understood what the words meant that he could read.

For a while, neighbors and family treated him sort of like a loved "circus freak" and would ask him to read when he was so little, or name all the presidents of the US in first grade, or tell all about Babe Ruth's home run record season...

he gets along much better with adults, who are more tolerant, than with kids his own age. I hear that's often typical.

He doesn't mind touching...as I said, he hugs me all the time, and likes it if I rub his back. but he doesn't like "light" touch.

When he was younger and would throw a tantrum, I used to hold him really closely until he could calm down. I don't know if that's what got him over the touch thing, or if it wasn't ever a problem.

he was really into nursing.

But as I said before, figuring out where he is in space is a big problem for him...sounds like the opposite of your situation, almost.

he doesn't have a perception of "personal space" and will stand too closely to people, or not realize he should move to let someone get by, all sorts of things like that...which is where my anxiety about driving comes in...but he's also resigned to the idea that he may not get his license until he's older.

When he hit puberty, he became very aware that he was "different" but he didn't always know when kids were making fun of him (and they often were) when he would hang out with the "cool kids."

By different, I mean "not cool." At the same time, he has all these dreams, still... to win an oscar and to write an award-winning script...he's given up on playing pro baseball, since he couldn't make the team in jr high school, and he resisted my suggestions about sportscasting, since he could provide color commentary up the wazoo.

What's also interesting to me is that autism seems to be in a sort of cluster with things like bipolar disorder and depression and sometimes ADD.

We're living in an interesting time for a greater understanding of these things, I hope. I don't think we really "get" a lot of what's going on with these things yet, though.

...and yeah, Flaxseed and other veggie oils have to go through a very inefficient process to convert linoleic and oleic acid to EPA, I found out because I was taking the veggie based EFAs, but recently switched back to fish oil.

[put out]

30. I am humbled. I offer a suggestion.

Similar or the same as others use. Have a partner put his hands directly on top of your shoulders. I'm describing it wrong. In between your neck and the top of your arms. And press. Gently, and if it tells you it feels alright, more firmly. For a few seconds, then ease up. Repeat, if it is calming.

[TrogL]

32. I've been meaning to try some of those pressure things

[fla nocount]

31. Chill..........you're focused.

Nuff said? There's all kinds of folks and they have all kinds of purposes. There's all kinds of say.., dogs, retrievers, setters, sheep-dogs, pugs, poodles, etc. They all have different inclinations and specialties as well. We (aspies?) are drawn to various specific interests that please us and benefit mankind. That we live in an unreal world that makes poor use of these talents is not our fault and labels us unfairly.

Think of other (aspies) or those that would "labeled" such in today's drug enhanced world (we're talking the pharms here) ....Edison, Einstein, Russell, Picasso, Hemingway. There's really too many "geeks" to mention if you think of it, but why should this be thought of as a liabilty? Difficulty in appreciating "Monster Garage", difficulty in watching Faux News without guffaws, difficulty in dealing with ditzy bimbos as life mates? And that's just us Aspies. How about the "bi-polars" and the alphabet soup of AAH's that's floating about our primary and secondary schools..........never had that when I was attending, just good grades and bad with some kids that had to try harder than others both for the grades and to get laid.

This isn't a disease nor a behaviour disorder....it's an inclination with a purpose, IMHO, like slumping. Want to hide it a bit by standing a bit taller? You can do that with discipline but remember it's something you do all your life. Why the desire to fit in? I've shared your frustration with partners but I feel that somewhere out there is an (Aspie?) girl with a cute butt that only wants to be poked, prodded and squeezed at her invitation, meanwhile she has her own pursuits. You're different my friend, we need to find people that are different. The issue is that they are about as conventionally attractive as we are........somewhat left of mainstream for the most part.

In parting........I've discussed this issue often, re: personality labels, for that is what all "disorders" are........what is to become of the village idiot? That smiling buffoon who used to gather firewood and was grateful for whatever currency we offered him, knowing not the value and never screwed because of our compassion and what we knew of his value to us.

Just be yourself and don't buy into the hype. You are different, everyone is and we're all beautiful.

[AlienGirl]

35. Aspie-to-Aspie Communication

I live with another Aspie. It's great. We can have hours-long conversations without going off-topic, we can communicate entirely without subtext, and neither one of us can navigate so we're tolerant of each other's getting lost/losing the car in the parking lot.

The best part is we both have the same combination sick/juvenile sense of humor. One night we were standing outside discussing physics, and all of a sudden one of us said "butt" and the other said, "butt" and it went from there...

Tucker

[TrogL]

37. I'm jealous

People think Aspies don't have a sense of humour but it's more a sense of wit and very very warped.

[TrogL]

42. sense of humour

I don't "get" many jokes. The ones I do get I consider sad.

I often say that I have no sense of humour, just a highly tuned (pun intended) sense of wit. (my shrink says wit is humour :shrug:)

I do not understand the humour of Dick Van Dyke or Woody Allen or even Steve Martin. I do enjoy Jim Carrey in some roles but not in others. I think his best work was The Truman Show.

My favourite jokes:

• "Beaver Lumber" - just think about it for awhile
  
• Dead Baby jokes
  
• Surrealist jokes
  
• Grade 4 jokes (they get things scrambled and screw up the punchline but laugh anyway)
  
• standing jokes
  

and I much prefer British/Canadian humour over American or Aussie.

[SheilaT]

38. I sure hope this thread stays alive a while longer.

It helps me so much to read all this stuff.

And to think that Aspies don't have a sense of humor, well, that's wrong! My son has a wonderful sense of humor and is especially good at making puns.

Driving. I think it's a problem because for the most part Aspies can't pay attention to a lot of things at once, which is the essential skill of driving. Both my husband and I drive stick shifts, and our son was completely unable to learn to drive on one. We eventually acquired an automatic transmission car for him and he did just fine. He's still not a very good driver -- drives too slowly, doesn't react quickly to changing situations, stuff like that. The underlying problem is that he both cannot read the vehicle language of other cars on the road (the equivalent of human body language) but he also doesn't understand that the rules of the road are not rigid and unyielding, but fluid and changeable.

However, after driving for about six months, he came to me and said he wanted to try driving the stick again, and it finally caught with him. Now he prefers driving a stick, and says when he gets a new car that's what he'll buy. In his case, the shifting seems to help him focus and he's a better driver now. It did take him longer than his younger brother to be able to drive the stick without stalling out frequently, but now he rarely does.

[TrogL]

39. Driving

I'm a good driver but I'm aware of my distractability, so I won't allow distractions from passengers if it's starting to interfere.

If the kids are fighting over the radio, I'll shut it off. If they're fighting each other I'll pull over and deal with it.

If they're bouncing in the back seat and I can see them through the mirror, I'll put the mirror to "dark" if I don't need it, otherwise I'll get them to hold still.

Oh, and they're not allowed to breathe if they fog up the windows.

[foo_bar]

40. Kiss My Asperger's

Not to lessen the impact of being different, but why does everyone need to attribute pathology and "otherness" to what appears to be a textbook description of intelligence?

engage in a conversational methodology other than lecturing

...case in point (, he says pedantically yet methodically). When two standard deviations of humanity's mean want to discuss the "weather out there", is it unnatural to adopt a tone of soliloquy, possibly condescension? (I know: I'm in denial, in a parenthetical clause no less)

break off my latest obsession (which can go on for years)

Maybe possessing the attention span of gnats is pathological. We can label Sir Isaac Newton deranged with imperfect hindsight, but who was right in the end?

Now comes the heavy work of them trying to understand the way I think and how to explain things to me so that I understand, and me trying to unlearn everything I've taught myself and learn a whole new set of stuff that I don't even have the vocabulary (textual or emotional) to even categorize, never mind verbalize.

Instead of seeking an epistomological lobotomy, why not play to your strengths? Yes you're unhappy, but there's no respite in modern medicine. Stick with the handful of other aliens you meet in this life, and try to leave the world better than you found it since you won't leave it happier (certainly by virtue of conformity). Don't listen to the anxious stage moms who demand answers for this gift; they need the advocacy groups and handholding more than we ever will.

On re-reading the thread: listen to #31, and props to AlienGirl for adopting the celestial nomenclature of our subspecies. Will you marry me?

[hunter]

41. Bangs head against wall...

Be gentle foo_bar.

My dog has learned this great trick. Whenever I am busy at the computer, or I'm reading or writing at our dining room table, she will sneak up behind me and touch her cold nose against my elbow.

I jump out of my chair every time.

When I was young I used to smack my siblings or classmates whenever they did something like that. Seventh grade was a living hell for me. Kids that age play some pretty brutal games of "He hit me first!" so I spent a lot of time in the vice principal's office.

I've never learned to suppress my extreme startle reflex, but I have managed to suppress the urge to strike back, and that came in handy the very first time my wife ever touched my bare foot. There's a reason I almost never take my shoes off, except maybe to go to bed. Don't touch my feet.

I agree that society is too quick to label some particualar class of behaviors as a "pathology," and that we've all got to learn to swim through the alphabet soup, but I'm also certain whatever intelligence I may have is never going to outweigh the emotional wreckage I've left in my wake.

I'll always hear the voices of my parents echoing in my head, saying some version of "How could you possibly think that was okay?"

My wife often catches me in stupid stunts, and somehow she mostly manages to direct her comments to the rational part of my mind. I can also speak freely with my parents now. But when I was a teenager and an angry young man, my dad's words or my mom's stunned silences would always hit me in the gut.

My dad would say something like, "How could you get an A in biology and flunk an elective that is supposed to be fun?"

Or, "Didn't you notice that girl was interested in you? How could you ignore her like that?"

Or the worst, "How could you say that to your mother/grandmother/grandfather/teacher...?"

Etc., etc., etc.

Staring at my feet and saying "I dunno" was never a good answer. I had the answers in my head, but they always sounded so stupid in words.

Anways, foo_bar, there are various levels of conformity. My wife says, "Yes, it is entirely arbitrary that we drive down the right side of the road here. But if you go off driving down the left side, people get hurt."

It sounds irritating to see myself writing that, but I listen to my wife.

[TrogL]

44. It sounds like your wife has adjusted well

to living with an Aspie. An ordinary person probably would be irritated by her explanation about driving, but it's probably the best possible way of explaining it to an Aspie.

What social skills I do exercise have been painfully constructed over the years. When two non-hostile people meet they smile. It just happens. When I meet somebody I remember that the social contract says that when people are meeting they're supposed to elevate the corners of their mouth in such and such a way and there's a thing you do with your eye muscles and if you're supposed to be really "pleased to see somebody" you need to put in some extra effort and show some teeth and crinkle your forehead a bit.

People who know me well are aware that it's act and say "It's OK, TrogL, you can stop smiling now. You're going to hurt yourself."

Many of the things I did not get until someone sat me down explained that yes, it was arbitrary, and laid out the rules and behaviours. The problem was remembering it all and understand when and when not to apply it. My aching head!

I've been able to get some mileage out of making a big joke out of non-conformist behaviour, but my shrink pointed out "your mad scientist act isn't gaining you many friends - it's time for a new strategy".

[SheilaT]

45. My son also has a strong startle

reflex and tends to strike at someone who does anything to startle him.

[hunter]

47. That's a difficult one...

The last person I smacked was in eleventh grade. Good thing too, I was still a minor.

I was standing all by myself, staring at something inanimate (as was my habit, who knows why, but it was a piece of paper blowing around in the wind) when the class clown-bully snuck up behind me and flicked my left ear. I instantly swung around and belted him in the mouth.

His lip was bleeding, and he said, "Why the **** did you do that?"

I didn't know why, it was some horrible reflex. I felt awful, and I always tried to keep at least an arm's legnth away from people after that.

I wish I could tell you how I decoupled my startle reflex from my "strike" reflex, but I don't really know.

Hmmmmmm. I guess I'm really out of my Asperger's closet with that story.

[TrogL]

43. Because the socializers and extroverts get the goodies

I'm lucky to be in the field I'm where it's OK to sit at your desk all day and type and if you're doing your job right never have to interact with a user. I get my goodies based on my work, not office politics.

Socializers pay less for their cars. In countries where bargaining is a way of life, I'd be helpless.

One place where I'm NOT at a disadvantage is in the field of music. I have the skills, the confidence and the creativity to take the lead.

I was at a rehearsal last night of an ensemble of people with mixed abilities. I'm a relative newcomer to the group. The conductor has gone overboard to help me fit in. We were working on some material where improvisation is an important part of the performance. This was unfamiliar stuff to many people and others felt uncomfortable, so I took the lead. I was singled out by the conductor who then invited others to follow my lead. My odd hearing came to advantage because I was able to pick out things happening waaaay on the other side of the room and bring it into my performance. At the end, several people were "doing their own thing".

A little later on, somebody sidled up to me and grumbled "Geez, you're a showoff".

Fuck.

[TrogL]

51. Update

I told somebody onsite this story and they set me straight. They saw it happen. It turns out that the "grumbler" in fact had enjoyed that portion of the rehearsal and was was smiling when he said it, attempting a sort of "reverse sarcasm" that he's known for, and went completely over my head.

:shrug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Do you think that Aspergers is more

common among musicians than among the general population?

I've met at least one who fit the description (blind date several years ago who could talk about nothing but the technicalities of his instrument and the pieces he was learning), and I currently know another one who seems to have a mild form that isn't obvious until you've observed him long-term.

[TrogL]

55. I can certainly see that happening

There's a couple of factors.

There's the idiot savant (there's a new name for this which, predictably, has slipped my mind) factor, which often turns to music. I have perfect pitch and used to be able to memorize huge passages of music on first hearing. My parents used to show me off doing this. Some days I say I have frequency tables stored where my socialization skills are supposed to be. Someone with musical talent tends towards music, obviously.

Music is a solitary art for the most part - hours and hours of practice alone with the instrument. I'd often hear with relief, "don't bother him - he's practicing". Even performing, there's that distance between you and the audience. The communication can be as one-way as you want it to be.

Glenn Gould the famous Canadian pianist was a classic Autie. He behaved oddly, socialized poorly, had strange obsessions, carried his favourite chair everywhere, and eventually gave up the stage entirely so he could concentrate on obsessively perfect performances of Bach in the recording studio. He even had the particularly wierd mannerism of humming along with the music and making other wierd noises - to the horror of recording studio technicians. Eventually they gave up and his "noises" became part of the recording.

It's particularly ironic that I mention Glenn Gould because of an incident from my childhood. It was my first time performing in public - the Kiwanis music festival. I got up and performed my piece, counting out loud. My music teacher had always had me count while I was playing - a good habit, but I never twigged onto the idea that performers didn't count out loud. The adjudicator laughed and said that only Glenn Gould was allowed to get away with stuff like that. Later they had me perform again - without the counting.

Even in groups, there is little need to socialize or even speak - the music does it for you. The conductor communicates through an agreed-upon gestural language. There's a apocryphol story of a cellist performing a concerto with an orchestra and a famous conductor. The music was proceeding apace and the cellist was playing with his eyes closed. He opened his eyes for a glance at the conductor and noticed his eyes closed, so he closed his again and the music proceeded accordingly.

Finally, there's the reputation of rock musicians for anti-social activites such as destroying hotel rooms. If you watch the movie Pink Floyd - the Wall, Pink is Aspie/autie. The movie has provided me with considerable solace.

[SheilaT]

56. Don't know about musicians

but LOTS of computer geeks and engineers if not exactly Asperger's syndrome people, are very close to it. They're 'normal' in that environment.

My son went to National Science Bowl two years running, and he had a WONDERFUL time there because most of the kids were a lot like him.

[TrogL]

57. Reminds me of my office

We're mostly a bunch of geeks. The three or four people who socialize well stick out like sore thumbs.

One Christmas the secretaries decided to get an office party together. OK, so far. Then they decided to have games that required a lot of socialization. Half the staff had smuggled tech manuals in and were reading them under the table and ignoring the game. Those who did take part broke all the rules and torpedoed the socialization part just to get the game over with so they could go back to studying and drinking and talking tech.

Hmmm...we haven't had a Christmas "party" since - wonder why not? :shrug:

[bleedingheart]

62. As a mother with a son who has Asperger's I can tell you that it is

hard for a 7 year old boy to adapt when he is hardwired not to adapt as well.
He has no friends and when boys his own age try and play with him he doesn't know what to do.
He has a hard time with gross motor skills like riding a bike but yet he can paint and draw beautifully.
He obsesses about topics like ancient history, math and foreign languages (he is fascinated by them like they are a puzzle)...but those are things that most boys and girls his age aren't interested in so he becomes the odd man out..

My son is lucky, this was diagnosed early and my husband and I have encouraged his talents while also trying to help him out with social skills. Now we are lucky to have the formal diagnosis and to get him more help.

[TrogL]

46. Just remembered something

I have no idea if this is an Aspie thing or a gay thing or what.

I was always incredibly emotionally fragile. I would cry at the drop of a hat, literally. I grade 11 I cried in class because my pencil broke. In grade 12 I cried in class because my oboe (the ill wind nobody plays good) was acting up during a special rehearsal.

:wtf: is that all about?

[SheilaT]

48. All I can tell you is that

my Asperger's son NEVER cries. Never did as a baby. But I'm not going to assume it's a gay thing. Probably it's just a Trogl thing, meaning individual. Some Aspies are quite emotional, some (like my son) are not. He has what psychologists term a flat affect, which is actually typical of things like schizophrenia. Which is simply a clue as to how individual and unique we all really are.

[hunter]

49. My mom always says I have "a rich inner life."

Externally, at least to strangers and people I don't quite trust, my mom and dad included, I often have a "flat affect."

Assume that your son has a "rich inner life."

Your son may not care, but it will make life much easier for you.

[SheilaT]

50. Thank you for that.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he has a "rich inner life" because he reads a great deal and can talk in an informed way about a reasonable number of things. Especially physics kinds of things, and if I want to have a conversation about the condition of the early universe shortly after the Big Bang, I can. And I do want to discuss that on occasion.

[TrogL]

52. That came up last night

My son is attending a special class at the moment to get a formal diagnosis for his ADD/ADHD/ODD/autistic spectrum issues. We got a note from his teacher/nurse asking about a certain facial expression he often makes. They're hung up on a diagnosis of Tourette's and trying to prove it. I know the expression and I've asked him about it and each time he's had a reasonable (if warped) explanation, usually relating to something he's thinking about.

If an ordinary child sat in a chair, apparently doing nothing, and suddenly smiled, you'd think that the child had remembered something pleasurable or funny, not that he had a wierd facial tick.

Personally, I think it's just his "rich inner life" mirrored in a facial expression.

[fla nocount]

53. It (expression) could be a reaction to a bit of inner dialogue

going on in reaction to something observed that he felt was odd or perverse in to his way of thinking. It happens to me sometimes, alone or in a crowd..........you mean not everybody does this? How sad for them, perhaps they'll get better.

[LWolf]

73. Actually, that was typical

of the one Asperger's student I've worked with. He was my student for 2 years, and he and his parents still drop by to visit every month.

For this boy, everything is ritual. The way he greets you is ritual. The way he says goodby. The way he explains his idea to someone. The expressions on his face, which he uses to communicate his intense range of thought and emotion, in equal measure to his words. Everything is done the same way every time, and he experiences stress and discomfort if the ritual is not completed. I learned to recognize various facial expressions and know what he was thinking about. Not the specifics, but I would know what topic or even person he was thinking about.

[Spider Jerusalem]

58. Here's something that MAY help...

I'm on a few AS-related mailing lists (don't participate much, unless I have something to say, which isn't often) but people talk about what problems they're having getting along in an NT-dominated world and share coping strategies, etc...you may find it beneficial.

Anyway, here are a few links: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AutisticSpectrumTreeHouse/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AS-and-Proud-of-it/

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/AutAdvo/

[hunter]

59. I'll stay away from anyone who is "AS-and-Proud-of-it," thank you!

No, I didn't visit that group. Maybe they are okay, but who but someone "AS" could pick such an insensitive name?. (Of course I'm speaking as someone who is most often clueless until someone smacks me with a big clue stick.)

And quite frankly, anyone who speaks of "an NT-dominated world" scares me. Maybe they haven't heard the "I love you, but until something changes, I can't live with you," speech yet.

[TrogL]

60. Discrimination

I subscribed to some of the groups listed above and it's been a wealth of information.

One thing being discussed recently is discrimination against Aspies by:

• bullying
  
• health care insurers
  
• the mental health system
  
• the legal system
  

Take, for instance, this -> http://www.mediate.com/articles/Linehan_S1.cfm

Where there is lengthy conflict related to separation, & where one party has Asperger’s Syndrome, we submit that the source of post-separation conflict is likely to be found predominantly in the problems generated by the neurological disability. This view is a radical departure from the literature on high conflict separation which assumes that both parties are the source of post separation conflict.

...

There may be threats and bizarre behaviours. There are commonly stalking-like behaviours.

...

With Asperger’s Syndrome in the post separation picture, dynamics are not the root of problems that the apart-family is having, the Asperger’s Syndnrome perceptions and lack of executive functioning and other problems that create havoc are the root of the problems.

Bullshit.

I've known several Aspie-NT couples who have separated where the situation significantly improved because the Aspie was no longer overwhelmed by the day-to-day overload of socialization inherent in family situations.

Another problem is the mental health system. In North America, it has been slow to come to grips with the dynamics of Asperger's Syndrome and High Functioning Autism and treats everybody as "crazy" and requiring medication, often anti-psychotics that simply don't work. Aspie's aren't psychotic - they think coherently yet differently and they have sensory integration issues that do not respond to medication. Alternatively, Aspie's are treated with major tranquilizers and turned into zombies.

[bleedingheart]

61. My son was just diagnosed with Asperger's this week

right now we are working to fill out all the paperwork.

My son has poor socialization skills and attention issues. He also fixates on certain subjects, currently it is ancient Egypt and it literally consumes him.

He also tends to see everything as black and white. If we hug his sister, he thinks that means we don't love him.
He also has a bit of a problem confusing movies with reality although he does ask us now to help him discern the difference, this is especially true with movies.

[SheilaT]

63. Get as much information as you possibly can

about Asperger's. There are a bunch of books, several websites, and a surprising number of people out there with it.

If you can attend conferences or workshops please do so. I've been to several in the three years since I figured out my oldest son (now 21) has Asperger's. Even though no one person has the same collection of quirks (symptoms), the more you hear about others with it, the more useful that information is.

It's always good to know you're not alone and he's not alone.

How old is he? The main advice I want to give is to get all the help you can

[bleedingheart]

64. I got a lot of information from Children's Hospital in Pittsburgh

it was the specialists there who diagnosed him.
He is going to be eight in March and we had begun noticing problems last year in school and so I pushed for a psychological exam and monitoring at his school, then I took him to his pediatrician and just this week we got the diagnosis from Children's... it took about five months to get a diagnosis.

In PA he will qualify for a medical assistance card and start to receive 15 hours of wraparound therapy a week.
We are also going to try some medication because the attention problems in school are affecting his performance, however the specialists stated that he will get below normal doses since that seems to be the regimen that works best.

[AquariDem]

65. Sick of how this world is treating me

I am really depressed right now. As I told a bunch of you ages ago, I have Asperger's. I'm 22 now (I had my birthday in January) and am still learning how to make friends. I haven't even started dating yet, so it's hard to feel any kind of "gay pride." I'm doing pretty well with the few friends I have, but I can't handle strong negative emotions (one of them had to "vent" today) directed at me. I'm still madly in love with this beautiful, older dyke on campus who doesn't seem to give a damn about me (I don't even know if she knows I like her). I'm falling behind in my schoolwork this semester after promising myself I wouldn't. Basically, my life is a total mess.

[TrogL]

66. You need a mentor

When I originally started this thread, I was in fairly bad shape. I had the opportunity to have several good long talks with a friend who works with kids in the autistic spectrum and he was able to point out some things and make some suggestions that really helped.

I was in my 30's before I really came to grips with the fact that I was gay and that I didn't have any idea how to handle myself in the gay social world. Fortunately some friends took me under their collective wing and "showed me the ropes".

You need to find your own mentor(s).

[drfemoe]

67. Hope no one objects to kicking this up from the basement ..

Heard a couple of good programs on NPR today >>

Dr. Fred Volkmar on Asperger's Syndrome

Fresh Air audio

May 5, 2004

Volkmar is a leading researcher in Asperger's Syndrome, generally considered to be a form of autism characterized by deficits in social interaction and non-verbal communication. In the early 1990s, Volkmar led the team that helped develop the definition of autism used by the American Psychiatric Assoc. He is the Irving B. Harris Professor of Child Psychiatry, Pediatrics and Psychology at the Yale University Child Study Center.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1872620

Michael John Carley

Fresh Air audio

May 5, 2004

Carley is the executive director of GRASP, The Global and Regional Asperger Syndrome Partnership. In 2000, he and his then 4-year-old son were diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome. GRASP works to educate the public about the disorder.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1872622

[KamaAina]

68. Yeah! My old boss!

In the early 1990s, Volkmar led the team that helped develop the definition of autism used by the American Psychiatric Assoc.

In the early 1990s, KamaAina performed data entry and analysis for Dr. Volkmar's team. We kept all the data from a dozen worldwide field trial sites on a 286 desktop, in a Paradox relational database, with the statistical analysis done with SYSTAT.

Of note is that we produced the first definition of Asperger syndrome to be included in the APA's DSM-IV, though the international ICD-10 had included Asperger's for some time.

[drfemoe]

72. He seemed realllllly nice ...

I hated for the interview to end ...

[Nikia]

70. How is it distinguished from other things?

It seems that most of the people with Asperger's syndrome in this thread grew up or are growing up in supportive environments and their trouble reading body language and having trouble socially ineracting is hard wired. When I was growing up though, I had many Asperger's symptoms except that I was very creative. I did have a lot of trouble relating to other people and reading body language. I was also very sensitive. I did not grow up in a supportive environment. My parents fought constantly through my early childhood and divorced when I was three. Divorced, they continued to fight, and focused on their pain rather than me or my sister. From the beginning, I retreated inward and enjoyed nature, books, and my created "worlds" safe from the outer pain. When I first attended preschool when I was four, I found that the other children were sometimes mean and hurtful too so I preferred focusing inward. That was safer. I think that during that time, I missed learning the social language. It's not that I couldn't or that it would be much harder for me, I was not interested in spending much time outside myself during the time when most children learn it.
Now I am comfortable being an introvert who likes people and often invites others in. I am finally decent at making conversation and have gotten better at and continue to get better at reading people. I am different from that little girl who I once was. I almost appear "normal".
So how do mental health professionals distinguish between children who have trouble with social interactions or body language because they are hard wired that way from children who are sensitive and have retreated from the world because they find it a hurtful place to be.

[SheilaT]

71. The difference is one of degree

and, I think, noticeable. I have a 21 year old son with Asperger's, and as time goes on I realize that he truly is handicapped, and that he'll never get over having Asperger's. In a way, it's like missing a limb. A prosthesis will never fool anyone into thinking it's real, although it's better than nothing.

Someone with Asperger's can learn many effective strategies for dealing with the world and with other people, but he (or she) will never be like normal people.

It's helpful to look at the criteria for Asperger's. Here's a list copied off an Australian website:
o Excellent rote memory
o Absorb facts easily
o Generally perform well at maths and science
o Generally anxious and unable to cope with any form of criticism or imperfection
o Can be the victims of teasing in a school environment, which may cause them to withdraw into isolated activities
o Often appear clumsy and may have an unusual gait or stance
o Often seen as a bit odd and/or eccentric
o Often have the appearance of good language but may have limited language content and poor social understanding
o Generally attend ordinary primary and secondary school
o While children with Asperger's Syndrome have many of the features of the Syndrome in common, they may vary enormously in other ways

And here's another link with slightly different information: http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html
You'll need to scroll about halfway down to get the the diagnostic criteria.

One thing to keep in mind is that Asperger's is part of a continuum of autism disorders, and some are more affected than others. Many children (and probably older people as will) with it will have temper tantrums when their routine is disturbed. My son has NEVER been that way, is in fact very emotionally flat. The point is, everyone is different.

In answer to your question, children who simply withdraw because the world is hurtful, simply don't have some of the obvious markers, such as obsession with particular fields of interest. They also won't display the physical awkwardness that's common, and they will be able to interact with others and have appropriate empathy.

At one workshop a video was shown in which a mother of a normal two or three year old pretended she was hurt. That toddler immediately tried to comfort the mom. But when the mother of a child with Asperger's behaved that way, the child was utterly oblivious to the mom's apparent emotional distress. It was a mouth-dropping moment of recognition for me. My son, who is actually a kind person, is incapable of experiencing any real empathy for others, and never noticed if I was in any kind of emotional or physical pain. Never.

[TrogL]

74. Had a long talk with my mother

I was sort of apologizing for years of questionable behaviour and I explained what Asperger's Syndrome was about and it cleared a lot of stuff up. She knew about the autism but assumed that people "grew out of it" when adults.

She pointed out that:

• I didn't talk until I was three - then it was straight to full sentences
  
• I refused to volunteer answers in class even if I knew the answer
  
• when other kids came over to play, I'd grab my toys and bring them inside
  
• I refused to socialize with other kids because their talking "interfered with my thinking"
  
• My mother and a friend had their babies about the same time and would compare notes. I flunked every developmental landmark. Drove her mad.
  
• They took me to the paediatrician who said they were meeting too many of my needs - I had no need to talk. She suggested they try ignoring some needs to see if I spoke up. Didn't work.
  

[LWolf]

75. I'd like to report something positive

for my Asperger's student. I've only had one, but because I change grade levels frequently, I have him back again after a year off. Between sitting on school "student study teams" which follow students having problems, and beginning my 3rd year teaching him, I've known this boy and his parents since kindergarten.

Last week, he ran for an ASB office. That required him to stand in front of the 5th-8th graders and give a speech; he had 3 other people to face for the position he was seeking. He won. When he heard, at the end of the day on Friday, that he'd been elected, I don't know that I've ever seen more joy emanating from a child. This from the boy who has, since kindergarten, struggled mightily with social skills.

I am so proud of him, and happy for him.

[ulysses]

77. very cool.

Glad to hear it! I have limited experience with Asperger's in the classroom - one little girl who came to that nutty private school for about a month and a half last year - and it was a real learning experience. We had a few minor breakthroughs before her mom pulled her out and started homeschooling again. Neat kid, wish I'd gotten to work with her more.

Kudos to your student!

[LWolf]

80. I have limited experience as well;

he's my only experience! The fact that I've known and worked with him since kindergarten, and that this is the 3rd year I've had him in my class, makes my experience with him a little more extensive; but it is still just him.

I read a book this summer I couldn't put down; "The curious incident of the dog in the nighttime" (or something close to that!) about an autistic boy (fiction). I saw my student on every page, and could hear his responses. I'm not sure if the character was Asperger's; there were some differences from my experience, but the connections were still fascinating.

[Behind the Aegis]

76. this is all new to me

I have read this post and as a counselor (of sorts) I have found it very interesting. But, I do have a question. Does this condition affect your ability to follow written word? I noticed that you said you had a hard time with distractions when people spoke to you? Does this not happen when you try to read? I apologize if this sounds stupid, but I am just curious. Thanks.

Brightest Blessings!

[TrogL]

78. It can be a problem

I read very very quickly and with good comprehension but I find it distracting with people talking around me. However, I can hyperfocus and tune them out. A while ago I noticed that I have a strange way of reading at high speed. I don't read linerally. My eyes bounce around the page to the key words and I construct a basic idea of what the entire page is about. Then I pick off the key sentences and read them linerally. This can cause problems if I'm reading for close content because the temptation is to start bouncing around the page.

My incessant reading is a barrier to socialization because I'm much happier in my books than dealing with people. In University I was notorious for going to parties then curling up in the corner with a book.

[bleedingheart]

79. My son was diagnosed this February with Aspergers

and he is getting treatment for it.

He has no friends his own age. He prefers to be around adults and will lecture people to no end about things he enjoys. Today in fact a woman told me..."he is so intelligent...is he a genius?" I just nod my head and say he is my little professor.

He has speech processing issues related to multi-step directives and is receiving therapy for that. He is a perfectionist and becomes severely upset if he can not "master" a topic or a game.

I love him and he is unique and I know that the work we are doing now will make him a far better adjusted adult later.

My son's obsessions vary, ancient Egypt, penguins, and even fantasy stories like Lord of the Rings but once he is hooked it is hard to get him to stop.

We have had some luck with special glasses for him and we are keeping our fingers crossed that their effects aren't a placebo effect....but so far so good!

[LWolf]

81. Wow.

If I didn't know better, I'd swear you were describing my student.

In addition to all of the above, my student:

*has an incredibly advanced vocabulary and an unbelievable memory. He can spout facts about anything he's ever read about, and he'll remember them a year or two after the fact and recite them verbatim. He makes adults uncomfortable, because they never know if what he is saying is accurate or not; it is beyond their depth. Many times it is; sometimes his logic is faulty and his efforts at extrapolating fall short.

*has a strong discomfort with more in-depth work; he likes everything in quick soundbites of fact. He can lecture for an hour at the drop of a hat, but it will all be recitation of facts and statistics. He doesn't like to discuss nuances, give evidence, do proofs, etc.; he prefers to say "I just know it." If asked for a paragraph, he'll write one or two sentences. If asked for an essay, he'll write 2 paragraphs of 2 or 3 sentences each. He leaves out all of the description, explanation, evidence, details, for broad, all-encompassing proclamations.

*when he finds himself out of his comfort zone, he has some ritualized responses. He finds comfort in ritual; always doing the same thing at the same time, the same way. Difference and/or change upset him. He has ritual responses to avoid dealing with academic and social issues that push him out of his envelope.

*He really likes people, but does not "work well with others;" everything has to be done his special way, and he prefers to do it himself than deal with people who have their own ideas.

He's an incredible person and I love him dearly.

[bleedingheart]

82. that's my son

he recites a lot of information but after questioning him I will find out that he doesn't understand a lot of what he is saying, but for someone who doesn't know him and the condition they will assume he is a boy genius.

Speaking of rituals...there is a chance that we may have to move in about a year or two if my husband and I continue to work on the other side of the city...well I mentioned this to my son and he has been obsessing about the idea of a move because it would upset his schedule and present an all new environment. He has even vocalized these concerns to his therapists and my extended family, I feel bad but I know that I need to introduce the concept at least a year in advance or else he will not transition well if it happens.

The best thing about Aspergers is that I can reason with him. If I give him concrete examples and explanations of why he can or can not do something he is always quite receptive and with one or two reminders some anti-social behaviors he exhibits can be minimized.

One silly story...my son has been learning the art of conversation. So now when he encounters someone new, he practices with them. His manners are quite formal and to be honest I can't help but smile because he sounds like he is inviting someone to a formal tea...

[LWolf]

83. It's good for me to keep checking back in on this thread.

I hope you'll share more. When we've made good progress, I sometimes forget that it doesn't just "go away." That it is always there, and that my student uses the coping mechanisms better on some days than others. We need to turn them into the same kind of rituals that he creates for himself.

He is such an incredible person; I tend to worry about whether or not I'm serving his best interests. Our school psychologist hears from me almost weekly with updates and questions.

[fugue]

84. Checking in . . .

Well . . . I've read this thread. I'm an Aspie--I wasn't diagnosed until I was 38 (last year). Hadn't even heard of it until about four months before I was diagnosed.

I tried writing about my specific twists on Asperger's, but it's bringing up too much depressing stuff right now. I'm doing OK now--I've got a good boss and a real support network--but it sure as hell wasn't worth the trip.

Maybe later. . . .

[TrogL]

85. My boss is very supportive

There's a lot of technical people in the office and many of our social skills are lacking to say the least. Non-technical people had been complaining to my boss that they found me aloof. He's been teaching me basic people skills like the "water cooler conversation" - that "whadya think of this weather" does not require a weather briefing as a response.

[fugue]

89. I telecommute

So interacting with the staff is a lot easier. It's e-mail, there's little small talk, especially when most of the staff is Japanese and my Japanese is minimal.

My boss and I had some rocky moments our first six months (she wanted me to put together a PowerPoint presentation--lots of motion, quick cuts, everything that overloads me--and it took a long time to explain that I could not do it). Things are good now, though.

First boss I've had who got that it's not that I won't adjust; I can't adjust.

(Long detailed rant on the subject of small talk deleted. Let's just say that I'm glad to go whole days without contact with small-talking NTs. ET would phone home if she knew what planet she was really from. . . .)

[TrogL]

86. I hate movies

I was thinking about a separate thread for this but decided there was sufficient audience here.

The kids were here this weekend and brought along the new "Peter Pan" movie.

It drove me fucking bonkers.

Most of the movie focused around Peter and Wendy trading "significant glances". The climax of the movie was Peter Pan making some sort of significant facial expression. It took them a bazillion takes to get it right.

I watched the ending of the movie five times and ended up more confused than when I started. I asked the kids about it and their explanation made no sense whatsoever.

[SheilaT]

87. The new Peter Pan movie

sexualizes Wendy and Peter in a way that's not in the original book. It's worth reading.

One striking thing in it is that the first time Peter appears, the comment is made that he still has all his milk teeth. Which would make him no more than 7, NOT a young adolescent just discovering sex, as the new movie implies.

Also, Trogl, do you rarely read fiction or go to movies? Even so-called normals have trouble understanding fiction if they don't read or see it much. There are a lot of implicit rules, much like rules of social behavior, that are never explicitly stated, so it you can't simply intuit them, it's a lot more difficult.

By the way, my 21 year old son is once again away from home at college, and seems to be doing well. Except that he never calls home. I wish I could get him to understand that he needs to write or phone once or twice a week. Any suggestions?

[TrogL]

91. I read a lot of fiction, watch a lot of movies

It's just the occasional movie that throws me. I've mentioned a few of them above.

On the other issue, my mother has resigned herself to calling me once a week because she knows I'll never phone or write.

[TrogL]

92. That's one thing that really upset me about the movie

I've read the book many times and I simply do NOT see the Freudian underlay that many people read into it. I suspect it's not there. Barrie was writing in a simpler time for a simpler audience (children, if I'm not mistaken).

[SheilaT]

93. I agree that the book does not

have a Freudian overlay. It is about a boy who refuses to grow up, rather like Barrie himself. If you read up on him you'll learn he was quite strange. But I think "Peter Pan" is simply a fantasy about eternal childhood.

Do you answer the phone when your mother calls? Do you respond to emails she sends you? I'm at this point where I cannot imagine having a child who calls home. It would be so easy for him to simply disappear that it's frightening.

[TrogL]

94. Mother

Yes I answer but she has to question me to get any other information than everything's "fine". She doens't have email. Pity, really, because I'm totally comfortable doing email. Too long on the phone and I get telephone panic.

I agree that it is frightening for someone on the other end not to know what's going on. The scary part is I'm willing to go to considerable hardship (eg. run out of food) before being able to work myself up to getting on the phone. Hence the weekly phonecalls/interrogations.

Here's a threat that might work. Tell him if he doesn't phone, you'll show up in person. The phone might be the lesser of two evils.

[SheilaT]

102. I have tried that threat

and it's only partially effective. This weekend I'm entirely too busy with my campaign to go visit him -- it's about a two hour drive from here.

But he did finally email me yesterday because he needs money! I found out he's moved to a different room in a roommate swap, so that's something.

I always appreciate being able to check in with someone like you, Trogl, to find out what's normal or typical for an Aperger's person. I know that everyone is different, but I can still be reassured that whatever my son is doing isn't out of line for someone with this thing.

[hunter]

105. Call Your Son.

If anything, his roomies will tell you, "Oh, he doesn't live here anymore..."

I put my parents through hell.

I was thinking about something you said up-thread too. People always say "they don't recognize facial experessions and body language." In many cases it's worse than that. I know for myself that facial expressions and body language don't naturally evoke any empathy in me. I might as well be blind. I have to hear it or read it, or figure it out in a very synthetic way. Most of the time I honestly can't tell what people are thinking. I have to make a conscious effort to care what people are thinking. If I see someone bleeding, instantly I cringe, and I have sympathy for how it must hurt. But if someone's feelings are hurt I don't instantly see it in their face.

My mom, and later my wife, have told me quite explicitly this does not give me any excuse for being a jerk. (My wife has on occasion used more colorful language...)

A funny aside to this is that I don't get "make-up" on women. My wife has me watching "What Not to Wear" on TLC, maybe because I'm always on the "What Not to Wear" list, but the part where a woman gets new make-up throws me every time. I don't get it. The women look the same, except for the make-up. My wife doesn't wear make-up, not because of me, but because she never has.

[SheilaT]

106. There's no phone in his room.

He has a cell phone which I think he's turned off. Or is not answering. I do now have the phone number of the RA on his new floor and will call that person tomorrow.


I've left two voice mails and at least one email to my son telling him that I absolutely have to have his new address so a check can be sent to him. Has he responded? No.

The thing is, he's failed at two other schools so far, and I want desperately for him to succeed now. This is where he shows the Asperger's rigidity, in his insistence on going to school when he'd probably be better off taking time off.

Like a lot of AS people, he wants to have friends, and the really bad thing about living at home and attending the junior college was that he had almost no social life. There was a little bit connected to his job at the movie theater, but very little. In a dorm he seems to do well. College age kids apparently are good at tolerating students who are "different", and especially because he's in an engineering dorm, LOTS of kids are a lot like him.

Back in high school he went to National Science Bowl two years running, and he was absolutely at home there.

[drfemoe]

88. TrogL

You guys w/ this (and others described here) sound so interesting!

I have a few of the common traits. But, I don't fit the full spectrum.

I haven't seen this movie. I'm not crazy about movies.
The "real world" offers so much stimulation....

What do you Need?

I feel a real affinity for this 'diagnosis'.
We are All Here. We do this together.
Enjoy our diversity ...

[fugue]

90. I watch mostly kids' and young adult stuff

All the nonverbals are exaggerated, and I'm more likely to get them. Of course, I do watch things multiple times. Drama's easier than comedy; I loathe many highly acclaimed comedies (Cheers, Seinfeld), which I can only suppose is because I'm not getting it. I also usually watch with my sister, and if something's important but I'm not likely to get it, she'll stop the video and check to make sure I got it.

She also previews possibly disturbing stuff (violent or very taut suspense), and her decisions are final because she's had to put me together too many times afterward. I remember once, back when we shared an apartment, when she talked with a friend with whom I was going to watch videos while she was out. She walked in in mid movie and gasped, "This is The Abyss! You can't show her that!" Of course, by that time I had to see the end or it would've bothered me, but after that we spent the rest of the day watching Tiny Toon Adventures.

Sometimes she says I can see something, but I have to look away when she tells me to (if the soundtrack is disturbing, it's right out!). I begged her to preview F911, but she wouldn't. She thinks political apathy is the correct course, and she won't watch "leftist propaganda." Sigh. I may risk it anyway.

[JohnKleeb]

95. Checking in

I was diagnose a few years ago and Ive been getting more social since saturday. I guess that event with my friends in DC really paid off.

[LWolf]

96. Hi, John!

:hi:

[JohnKleeb]

97. heya day latta

Trog told me to check on in, I've been way more socially confident lately and more extroverted than normal.

[LWolf]

98. Glad to hear it.

:grouphug:

[JohnKleeb]

99. Yeah me and a friend are going up to Philly

and I wanna hang out with the same crowd from Saturday at the inagural, really great people, I know damn well why I felt more comfortable around people a 2-4 years older than me, because well we're still a little silly, we can have serious talks, and gasp, not get shocked over the fact taht schools have gay tolerance clubs, damn small town virginia :).

[yardwork]

100. Fascinating thread. Thank you to everyone for their posts,

because they help me understand my son. He does not have an Asperger's diagnosis, but he does have some of the traits. He has been diagnosed and treated for sensory integration dysfunction and ADHD. He is hyposensitive, which means he actively seeks more sensory input rather than less. He literally likes to bounce off walls. If given a choice, he will always go through things - snowbanks, other people's games, mud puddles - rather than around them. He likes music at loud volumes. He loves to play football, and the coaches love him. He has a great football attitude - hit people, hard! He gets in trouble at school for three reasons: (1) His idea of a friendly "pat" sometimes knocks smaller children down, (2) When teased or angered he has a quick temper and is most comfortable solving the problem physically, and (3) He becomes enraged when his self-imposed perfectionism feels frustrated.

He is very good with words but poor at reading people's body language (unless it is a physical interaction). He writes short, succinct, clever, and witty essays - and hates to be told to "write more" by his teachers. Just the other day he sat immobile for twenty minutes in stubborn refusal to add a single sentence to a two-sentence essay he had written. It was sufficient. He said what he wanted to say. He was not going to add another word.

I did some research on Asperger's and autism because I know my son has some of the traits. I read that there is a continuum of human personalities - it ranges from the social butterflies who are geniuses at interpreting and sometimes exploiting people's feelings (I think these people become politicians) through the so-called normal folks in the middle, through nerds (that's me), Asperger's, and on into various levels of autism. This reminds me that it takes all kinds to make the world go round. I figure that probably most scientists, researchers, and inventorsfall somewhere in the Asperger's - autism continuum. Without them, the social butterflies would probably still be gossiping in caves by firelight, having failed to get around to inventing anything.

My nine year old son's particular obsession right now is video games. Not only is he expert at all contemporary systems that we allow him to buy, he has learned all about the history of video gaming and buys obsolete systems and games on ebay. He spends a fair amount of time talking to other video gaming fanatics on the internet. Fortunately (I guess) he snuck watching South Park one day and it happened to be the episode about Cartman and NAMBLA, so he knows about predators on the internet.

[Nay]

101. For a long time, I meant to check out this thread because I have

often felt that I suffered from a number or Asperger-like symptoms. I have spent considerable energy compensating for most of these symptoms and I think I have done a pretty good job overall. Very few people who know me now think I am "weird." This was not the case when I was in school.

I can have sensory processing problems -- I can relate to all the people here who CANNOT STAND background noise and have trouble processing speech with background noises. I never could do that, either. In fact, I am easily overwhelmed by stimulation of almost any kind.

Emotionally stormy people must stay away from me. Can't take that whirlwind stuff. It exhausts and frightens me immediately.

As a child, I always had my nose in a book and was in one fantasy world or another.

I rarely listen to music (turns to annoying noise very quickly, even if it is music I initially like)

I never listen to the radio in the car

I am always telling people to turn that volume down! This, even though my hearing tests as normal (not hypersensitive)'

When my husband met me I did not own a TV, and when we moved in together, the noise of that goddam thing on all the time drove me fucking nuts.

I cannot drive a car and listen to a book-on-tape. I will wreck the car within the hour. As I listen to the book, I form total movie-quality scenes in my head which are projected out in front of me as if they are playing on a movie screen, and I literally cannot see the road or other cars. No one else I ever knew had this problem.

As a child and young adult, I was extremely introverted and shy. I felt like I did not understand people at all. I can't say that I cannot "read" people, as so many of you describe, but I do feel I read people incorrectly, at least as a child. Now, I think I do quite well, but only experience taught me what I know. Part of my problem may have simply been my reluctance to interact, not AS.

I have a wonderful memory for facts and information, but a horrible procedural memory. Procedural memory allows you to remember poems, dance steps, piano fingering positions, steps to getting a computer to do its thing, etc. I never could remember a poem's lines in order! As far as musical instruments, dance steps, forget it. Anything that requires that I memorize anything in a certain order, I cannot do at all, or I do it only poorly.

Can't remember people's names to save my life. And faces? Well, you know that memory system that uses facial characteristics to link a name to a face? Faces look so much alike to me that I am hopeless at that. I am certainly not like those folks who cannot recognize anyone, but I would fail miserably as, say, a cop or a receptionist, who had to remember everybody. Ain't gonna happen. There are some types of faces that I cannot remember -- I never recognize the person, even if I have seen them dozens of times. But thankfully this has happened only a dozen times or so.

Certain kinds of touch I HATE. Patting, for instance. Don't ever pat me if you want to console me. I'll rip your arm off. But massages, holding hands, are fine. I can't stand very light touch (like a breath of air on the skin of my arm) or repetitive touches.

I have, unbelievably, a fairly social job. It takes its toll on me, though. I know that I should go to lunch with my boss and coworkers more often (I can manage it once every ten days or so), but my private time is so precious to me I don't want to waste it on others. You can imagine the reception I would get if I actually verbalized this to them. I sidestep the problem fairly neatly by using lunch hour as my exercise hour. Lots of people at work do this, so I am in good company and am not thought of as standoffish because so many other do it, too (albeit for different reasons).

I also was told as a child and young adult to "smile more!" and really resented that. Who the hell are you to tell ME what my facial expression should be at this moment in time?? I read in a feminist book that many other women were subjected to this at a young age, and I came to accept that I was not weird for hating this, and that there was a feminist, not "weird," explanation for how enraged I felt about that comment. It was invariably a man who said that to me and those other women, and I do believe it was an attempt by those men to socialize us about how we should behave in the presence of our "overlords." Gak.

I am absolutely confounded by people who say they don't want to retire because they would miss the people. WTF?? Trade ya!!

I remember wondering at an early age why getting put in isolation in prison was considered a punishment. Me, me, take me! I'll go! If I punch a guard in the face, will you put me in isolation?

Anyway, I may just be a geeky introvert, but I thought I'd talk about the similar symptoms.

[SheilaT]

103. It doesn't matter a whole lot

if you're actually diagnosable as having Asperger's. It does matter that you learn what works for you and what doesn't and do your best to communicate that to those around you.

My son with Asperger's worked for a movie chain part time for about two years. In many ways it was the worst possible job for someone with Asperger's since it's pure public contact and requires being able to do several things simultaneously which he is (as I suspect most AS people are)very poor at. At the beginning he was slow, even by the low standards of the job. He was especially bad at doing the closing up routine and took about twice as long as anyone else. The manager finally stopped putting him on the closing shift alone.

But it gave him people skills that he otherwise might not have gained. I think that in this case since the interactions were SO limited ("Do you want butter on your popcorn?" "Shall I mega-size that?") gave him practice over and over again with the same thing.

I know this would not necessarily be a good thing for all AS people, but it's something to consider -- having a public contact job with limited responsibilities -- for many of them.

I think the essential problem we're all up against is that a more and more limited definition of what's normal is taking over. We're all quirky in our own way, it's just that what's called quirky in you is the social norm in me. Or vice versa.

[fugue]

104. A diagnosis *does* matter. A whole lot.

I knew what worked for me and what didn't. I explained to employers that I needed a low-stimulus environment, no lower than 68 degrees, no interruptions, the less social interaction the better. Prior to my diagnosis, I was considered an inflexible, uncooperative spoiled brat. For example, the manager of one department told my manager that a private office was "above my station" and she shouldn't let me have it. Despite years of telling people that I cannot do jobs with high social content, in July 2003 I was offered either a high-social content job, in a shared office, at my employer of eight years or layoff. "I can't do a job like that!" I gasped to the woman who had been my supervisor for six years. "You can try!" she responded.

(sarcasm)Oh, yeah. Undiagnosed but knowing what I needed really worked for me.(/sarcasm)

Since my diagnosis, it's been a different world. First, I don't go in alone anymore; my employment specialist goes in with me. When they start talking about how I can adapt to something, she shakes her head. "This isn't about learning. This is about brain-wiring. Putting her in that situation won't teach her how to adapt; it will overload her and cause a panic reaction." Once I was diagnosed, all I had to say to the NYS Department of Labor when they sent me a job "opportunity" for work in a fast-paced, dynamic, customer-service-oriented atmosphere, is "I've been diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. I cannot function in the atmosphere described." I didn't have to go through the whole sham of applying and the stress of hoping I didn't get an offer (because if I did get an offer I'd have to take it or lose my unemployment benefits).

Sure, the power-brokers may not believe that I really need the things I say I do, any more than they did before I got the diagnosis, but legally, I'm protected. Thank you, Americans with Disabilities Act of 1994.

If you think you've got Asperger's--or any other disability--get yourself evaluated. Get an official, legal diagnosis. You don't have to ever tell anyone about it, but it's there to protect you if you do.

[Chimpanzee]

108. My 14 year old sone has A/S

And In observing him, I've come to realize (as has my ex-wife and girlfriend) that I have it too, albeit milder than my son. My son is completely obsessed with Video games, TV, and computer. That's it. Those are his worldly interests (oops forgot about power rangers).

I worry so much about him making it in society by himself. BTW, your list of 'symptoms' fits my son to a tee, and to me pretty much also.

My son talks about suicide every once in awhile, and that really scares me. He hates school so much, he doesn't understand the value and wants to be on his own, but has no idea what that means.

Also, he kind of freaks out if you touch him, and if there is a loud noise he freaks - sometimes dives to the ground - can be a bit embarrasing in public. But, damn do I love him!!!!

[TrogL]

109. Interesting LBN thread on "curing" Asperger's (with link)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1085596

Linked NY times article

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/20/health/20autism.html

[AlienGirl]

110. "Cure," feh...they should find a cure for Neurotypicality Disorder

Sorry, I'm slightly bitter 'cause it's the holidays and everyone is acting weird around me. And what I really want is for it to be like any other time, with all the normal routines.

Plus I work in retail. :scared: Everything this time of year lights up and makes noise and wiggles or dances, and I have to listen to the same stupid singing ornament singing every time someone walks by. By the time I get home at night I just want a sensory deprivation tank!

Tucker

[LWolf]

111. Great article!

I haven't read over the discussion in LBN, but the article fascinates me. Thanks for the link.

[TrogL]

112. Another Aspie moment

Today I was in my partner's store and walked past one of his friends and said "hi" and walked out of the store.

His friend pulled my partner aside and said "if he disses me again I'm going to punch his lights out".

My partner had to explain to him that he'd misunderstood my lack of facial expression or vocal inflection wasn't "dissing", it was an Asperger's side effect.

Later I made a specific effort to bare my teeth and modulate my voice in a pleasing manner.

*sigh*

[TrogL]

113. Effexor seems to be helping with some of the issues

Here's the skinny

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=276x727#927

[Not_Giving_Up]

114. My 11 year old son is an Aspie

We just got the diagnosis last year, and it cleared up so much for us. We were constantly told that everything that he did was ADHD related, which I knew wasn't right. Now that the school knows what they're dealing with, he's growing socially in leaps and bounds!