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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-12-05 01:54 PM
Original message
Is there a new encyclical in the works?
My brother called me last night very upset about an article he'd seen. According to him, the right wing is pushing an encyclical to eliminate most of the changes we've seen at Mass over the last 45 years. Apparently, the faithful aren't reverent enough. Also, there would be a broad ban on Communion for those not perceived as holy enough including divorced Catholics.
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tmorelli415 Donating Member (268 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 04:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. Have heard similar
Edited on Fri Jul-29-05 04:40 AM by tmorelli415
But I don't remember hearing it was to be an encyclical. My understanding is that it was a major revision to the GIRM (General Instruction of the Roman Missal) that was meant to crack down on litrugical 'abuses' and inappropriate forms of expression and posture. It sounded like it was meant to only reinforce Vatican II mass changes which were apparently thought to have never been well-enforced to begin with. I didn't get the feeling that it was going to be a big problem unless you attend a parish that has gotten very 'free form' with liturgy, handling of the vessels, etc. Also parishes who use lay eucharistic ministers and alter servers, it sounded like there will be very strict return to respect for the sanctuary (apparently no lay person is supposed to be in the sanctuary at any time except for alter servers, but no eucharistic ministers and they're not supposed to even touch the vessels). Strict but nothng earth shattering as I understood it. One thing is that the US bishops had decided that we should kneel for the consecration and it would be strictly enforced because there was too much variation in posture (I think it depends on the country's bishops to decide this part - some stand - but we were all to be given orders to do it right) I guess this was originally going to go out before JPII passed on, but it was held because of his death and BXVI is a big proponent of enforcing liturgical practices more as there have been some pretty bad abuses in some cases. i can't remember anything about when this will happen, or if it has already happened.

perhaps we heard about the same thing?
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. That may be what he heard.
It sounds like an expansion of the "reforms" instituted last Advent. I read the recent article in the New Yorker about Benedict XVI. It sounds like he is hung up on nostalgia for the elaborate Masses he attended in his village as a kid. I know people can do some silly things on their own if given a free hand with the Liturgy. On the other hand, I think people who treat the Mass as a magic ritual with each gesture done precisely so and the exact magic words spoken (or the magic won't work) are missing the entire point.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-29-05 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. That sounds correct to me; I had read about this, too,

but it was something that's already come out, not an encylical.

There was also mention of concern that many Catholics who have committed serious sins are not going to confession before receiving the Eucharist, that Catholics need to be reminded of what they should have learned in catechesis. Apparently in some areas, many divorced and remarried Catholics, people who have not had their first marriages annulled, are regularly going to Communion and their priests aren't stopping them, though they know their situation.

There is also a lot of liturgical uncertainty and clearing it up can only be good. As a Catholic woman, I'd certainly like to know if it's true that we should still be covering our heads in church.
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-30-05 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. Here you go ....
I found this - although it applies specifically to North America,
I imagine something similar will apply here as well.

http://www.catholic.com/library/liturgy/cag_changes.asp

The only thing I have a problem with is Rome trying to cut back on
the use of lay Eucharistic Ministers, something that Cardinal Pell
has tried to do here, with little success. Apart from the fact that
I like the idea of the laity participating as much as possible (who
is the Church for, if not the people?), there are practical reasons
as well. Many parishes are now understaffed, and often one or two
priests have jurisdiction over two parishes, and lay participation
has become necessary in many areas. In our church, we have six
priests, but they look after three parishes, and rely heavily on
lay people in organisation of most events, and to take communion to
the sick. If churches are to continue to provide a real service,
lay participation is here to stay.

As far as giving communion to divorced and remarried people is
concerned, it happens in our church and many others. I know
it's contrary to church teaching on divorce, but if the people
concerned are regular churchgoers in a committed relationship, I
believe Vatican II allows individual priests to make the decision
about whether they should receive communion. I'd like to see the
Catholic Church take the Orthodox view that people are entitled to
a second chance, and recognise second marriages. Obviously it
couldn't go beyond that, but I figure that as many people marry too
young the first time, it would be charitable to allow them a second
try. Better than throwing them out of the church, surely?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Thanks, Matilda, this should clear up a lot of questions.

I noticed at the bottom there are references/ links to find the complete GIRM and read it all for ourselves if we choose.

I was interested to note that the title 'Eucharistic minister' has never been approved by the Church, that the proper title is 'extraordinary minister.' I knew the second title but no one uses it because it sounds like 'super-duper minister,' due to the way we use the word 'extraordinary' in everyday life.

I don't mind, personally, if there are enough priests, deacons, and acolytes to perform all the functions at Mass; it's hard to get much out of a Mass when you're taking that sort of role. It does sound as if extraordinary ministers will still be needed to take Communion to the sick, which was the main reason I agreed to be an extraordinary minister. And they'll be employed when a priest needs assistance distributing Communion and there are no other priests, deacons, or acolytes to assist.

What we extraordinary ministers really need is a shorter title, like the lectors and cantors have. What's Latin for 'helper' or 'dogsbody'? ;-)
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. The shortest word for assistant or deputy I can find is "optio".
So perhaps we could become options?
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Well, our office is optional, LOL.

Thanks for looking that up. I forget you can do that online, always think I need to go get a Latin book. Duh!
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Reading through this guide, we seem to do exactly as you do
at the moment, so I'm sure whatever changes come in for the US will
also come in for us. I've never seen or heard of anyone being
refused Communion on the tongue, or because they kneel - ministers
just go with it. We do have a small percentage of people who prefer
to receive the Host on their tongues, and one very devout man who
always kneels, says a short exhortation and crosses himself before
rising to receive Communion and it would certainly be a slow process
if everybody did that, but I can't imagine anybody getting upset
over it.

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. In our parish, and I've noticed this in

the Masses broadcast from the chapel at EWTN, and in parishes I've visited, people who are going to kneel to receive get at the end of the priest's line -- never in the extraordinary minister's line, of course. At 8 a.m. Mass, we now have a young couple with a very cute toddler who sit near us and the wife/mother always gets at the end of the line and kneels to receive. The little boy is very bright and outgoing, and makes the responses correctly, in a loud, clear voice. (He doesn't know the Nicene Creed yet, but he's got a lot of the responses down pat, and I'll bet he's working on the Creed.) He always goes up in front of his father, with his little hands folded, and gets a blessing from the priest.

Which reminds me I need to answer your PM. . .
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Matilda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-31-05 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. My daughter was like that little boy,
couldn't wait to make her First Communion, and she was the first
girl in the parish to be appointed as an altar server.

She's 21 now, and doesn't go to Mass at all. I don't push it, but
I hope she'll come back one day.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. When she gets older, she'll likely

return, or maybe turn to another faith. Many people rebel at some point, go through agnostic/atheist period; I did. For your sake, I hope she returns to the Catholic Church, but you seem like someone who could deal with her choosing another faith.
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #7
12. Believe it or not, that's what got somebody upset!
If somebody wants to be extra devout, I've got no problem with it, but that behavior was specifically forbidden in the instructions that came down last Advent. I guess if we're all headed into mega-churches, we can't hold up the Communion lines!
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-03-05 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. What I read was that all of us are to

make a gesture of reverence before receiving -- a bow, a genuflection, or, presumably, kneeling.

When John Paul died, I watched EWTN a lot because their coverage was so good and have watched Mass on the channel several times since. Without exception, as one person goes forward to receive, the person next in line puts one hand on the back of the first pew and genuflects before it's their turn to go forward. The lines always move right along.

I don't see us headed into mega churches like the ones I've seen on television. They're more like staff meetings with "inspirational" speakers (always my least favorite staff meetings as the "inspiration" was always schlock.)

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