Anyone else had a crisis of faith?

[Hans Delbrook]

I'm glad to find this group. I hope someone can offer me words of comfort and/or advice.
First of all, like someone else said, I'm very upset that the Church pushed so hard for Bush this election. At Mass a few weeks before the election we were basically told to vote Republican or else. And if we thought we were following our conscience to do otherwise then our conscience was "disordered" and we were not to go against the Church in this matter. (What good is freedom of conscience then?)
Anyway, I stayed away from Mass until after the election just because I didn't want to be told I was a bad "disordered" Catholic. I was searching my conscience the whole time wondering if I was choosing "false gods" (my Democratic beliefs) over the Church or whether I should leave the Church if I couldn't support it totally, etc.
I spent some time looking into the Episcopalian Church but I couldn't do it. And not just because it would kill my Mom but because I am Catholic as much as I am, say, a woman and it would take a major operation to change me from either.:)
But I don't feel as good at Mass like I used to. This feeling is probably compounded by the fact that when I did go back to Mass the Homily was an abortion/stem cell lecture pretty much bashing Kerry and people like him (me) who don't vote for pro-life/anti-stem cell candidates.
I couldn't help but wonder - was God trying to tell me something? And if so - what? That I should leave the Church or that I should stop voting democratic? (I could no more vote republican than I could voluntarily stop breathing.)
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[mrgorth]

1. God is not in a building or even a group of buildings

If you need to pray you can pray. If you need a group to pray with there are other groups. YOu can go to a different RC Church that is less conservative, join the Catholic Workers group or experiment with the UCC, Episcopals or Lutherans. God is within you. Good luck.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

2. Priests aren't supposed to tell their flock who to vote for.

They aren't supposed to get involved. Ours didn't. He didn't even mention it. We did have a conversation, and the POPE doesn't care for Bush. From what I understand he find him to be too war mongering, and while catholics haven't always been a peaceful lot, John Paul II finds this war to be unjustified. Please don't give up on the church altogether. Give up on the one you're going to. Find another one where the priest isn't like that. We were lucky to get a very liberal, loving priest.

To answer your question, I have had a crisis of faith. But the catholic church has brought me out of it for the most part. I am TERRIFIED of death, but it's not necessarily death that I'm afraid of. It's the unknown. I'm a bit of a control freak, so if I can't see it or feel it, I have a hard time believing in it. But I can feel God's love and his guidance more when I'm in prayer than when I'm just trying to do it alone. When I try to do it alone, I get to the point that I get filled with doubt. It's not a fun thing.
Duckie

[Beware the Beast Man]

3. Of course.

Even the most devout have a crisis of faith. Even Peter had one, when he denied knowing Jesus (3x). This election year especially made me second-guess my faith, though the parish I attended didn't necessarily get political (that I know of; I haven't been to church since March).

[DemBones DemBones]

4. Probably a better question is whether there is anyone

who has NOT had a crisis of faith, and whether anyone was NOT upset about the actions of some priests and bishops during this past election season. My archbishop was one of the first ones to speak out against Catholic politicians taking Communion if they had voted "pro-choice," saying they should go to confession and be absolved first, implying that they'd have to stop sinning, i.e., stop voting pro-choice.

Later, he sent a letter following the guidelines in the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger, saying Catholics would sin if they voted for a pro-choice candidate BECAUSE he was pro-choice, but they might morally vote for a pro-choice candidate if they believed the other candidate would cause more evil if elected.

Catholic politicians are in a double bind because if they're pro-life they can be accused of being "controlled" by the Church but if they're pro-choice, they're now facing opposition from the Church itself. I don't envy them. Nor do I envy a Catholic woman with a pregnancy endangering her health.

I think, though, that the Church should remain constant in its teachings even though it's difficult for Catholics to follow them. Jesus said the way was narrow.

How do the rest of you feel? Should the Church just "get with it" and say everything is permissible? Or should it continue to teach us what sin is and urge us to avoid it? I don't have a problem with the Church re-evaluating its teachings for a reason, such as when new texts are discovered, or as a periodic update for liturgy and such like Vatican II (though I'll always think getting rid of Latin was a bad move.) But I think trendy religion is a bit of an oxymoron, and a mistake.

[Zynx]

5. Faith is much larger than any institution.

Remove yourself from the institution if it is hurting your faith.

[pelagius]

6. I think most Catholic and Orthodox Christians have been...

...taught that leaving their particular church is tantamount to leaving the Faith altogether. While Rome acknowledges that God may work in other churches (imperfectly!), the Orthodox flatly deny that there is any salvation outside the Orthodox Church.

Even if one doesn't "believe" this, its still a powerful psychological pull. There's also that simple pull of culture and family in addition to any theological/ecclesiological issues.

Protestants are more used to the idea that if you don't agree with a denomination, leave it. And, what the heck, start one of your own!

[papau]

7. "Orthodox flatly deny that there is any salvation outside" - the one item

that bothered me

a close relatives death had to have an Orthodox redoing of prior Roman Catholics marriage vows else he was doomed to not be allowed in Heaven.

I did not like the way it made the last weeks busy - arranging this- when those weeks should have spent in meditation preparing for meeting our Lord - and saying good-bye to relatives and friends.

[DemBones DemBones]

8. Can you try another Catholic parish? I don't think

people should do that for minor reasons, as some do, though it still makes more sense than leaving the Church entirely or being miserable at Mass every week when you're still a faithful Catholic in your heart.

But your priest isn't just a minor irritant, he's been the source of a lot of unhappiness for you, so trying another parish may be your solution. I know I'm within 30-35 miles of three parishes other than my own and hope you have as many choices near you!

[pelagius]

9. A crisis of faith is necessary, I believe...

...in order to grow into a mature faith.

[Stunster]

10. Bush-supporting priests are wrong about the Church's teaching

The Church's teaching is quite clear. It IS permissible to vote for a pro-choice political candidate if one in conscience believes that there are 'proportionate', i.e., sufficiently weighty reasons to do so---reasons that outweigh the candidate's pro-choice stance.

It is NOT the Church's teaching that in the Bush v Kerry contest, there were no sufficiently weighty reasons to vote for Kerry, despite his pro-choice position. Rather, it is a matter of personal, prudential judgement and interpretation of the facts as to whether the reasons to vote for Kerry rather than Bush outweighed Kerry's pro-choice position as a reason not to vote for him.

In my personal judgement, the reasons to vote for Kerry were proportionate as to outweigh his pro-choice and stem-cell research positions. I explain some of them below. But let's be clear about what it is the Church has stated authoritatively on the principle involved:

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Vatican Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, sent a letter in June to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. He concluded: "A Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in evil, and so unworthy to present himself for Holy Communion, if he were to deliberately vote for a candidate precisely because of the candidate's permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia. When a Catholic does not share a candidate's stand in favor of abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.

Reasons to vote for Kerry rather than Bush:

1. The abortion rate has risen under Bush. It declined under Clinton. This is probably due in part to the widespread job losses, the increase in the number of those without health insurance, the fall in median household income, and the rise in number of those suffering from poverty and hunger, all of which have been well documented in a series of public reports.

2. Bush has waged an unnecessary and unjust war in Iraq. A Lancet article estimates 100,000 Iraqis have died for war-related reasons.

3. Corporations, in pursuit of maximum profit, knowingly cause unnecessary deaths due to unsafe workplace conditions, environmental pollution, unsafe or harmful products, and placing excessive stress on employees, both in America, and in the global economic order. Bush's domestic and international regulatory policies would be far too lax compared to Kerry's. So, over four years, we can expect more cancers and other pollution-related illnesses and premature deaths, more heart attacks due to excessive workplace stress, and more deaths and accidents due to unsafe or poorly regulated products, etc---all for the sake of higher profits for stockholders----with Bush in office rather than Kerry.

4. Hunger and malnutrition-related illness kill millions around the world. Bush turned down a proposal by the World Health Organization that would save 8 million lives annually in Afric. The cost to the US would have been $10 billion per annum. Instead, Bush abolished the estate tax, a measure which benefitted the 3300 richest American households to the tune of $20 billion per annum. This is just one egregious example of Bush's being anti-life and pro-tax cuts for the wealthy.

5. As a practitioner of diplomacy, I believe Kerry would be far better than Bush at building a more peaceful and just international order. The long-term consequences would be millions of lives saved and improved due to a lessening of conflict and exploitation around the globe.

So yes, there are/were proportionate reasons to vote for Kerry, and not Bush. Please feel free to share these with your pastor, and point out the Ratzinger quote to him to show that in principle, the Church has no absolute objection to voting for pro-choice candidates, and indeed permits it if there are sufficiently weighty reasons.

I would also point out that the Bishops have not called for a constitutional amendment requiring the US president to satisfy Catholic just war criteria before using military force. Thus, it is legal in America for the government to wage an unjust foreign war. It is thus legal for the US government to kill innocent people abroad in the course of waging an unjust war. Do the bishops forbid supporting a candidate who does not favor a constitutional amendment requiring the US president to seek a Vatican ruling that a proposed war is actually just, before waging it? No, they don't. They know that such an amendment would not be passed, and that candidates who made it part of their platform would not be elected. Therefore, for reasons of prudence, they refrain from making this a condition of support for political candidates. Such candidates may be supported even though they do not have a position that would outlaw unjust war, or require that any use of American military force be certified as satisfying Catholic just war criteria. Their position on this is thus not fully consistent with their position on abortion, where they do seek a legal ban. Both abortion and unjust war are immoral, and involve the killing of innocents. But the bishops only seek a legal ban for abortion, and not one for unjust war.

Ask your pastor if he will make it a requirement at the next election that no candidate who fails to support a constitutional amendment requiring the certification that a proposed war meets Catholic just war criteria can be supported by Catholic voters.

[Hans Delbrook]

11. I want to thank everyone for their thoughtful replies

It was very helpful to read them. I'm back at Mass on a regular basis and I enjoyed our wonderful Advent and Christmas services. I was thinking of trying to find a more liberal parish but that's on hold for now. We'll see how the new year goes but either way I'm wishing you all a healthy, holy, happy 2005!

[Cuban_Liberal]

12. I think some bishops let some pastors get out of hand.

Our bishop was not one of those, thankfully; in fact, he did the opposite of what your pastor did--- he had each rector read His Holiness' message about considering the candidate's whole record when deciding how to cast one's vote. I know some parishoners who grumbled about that, but they were the one-issue voters anyway.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. Yes, last year.

In 2002, my brother and his lovely wife had a beautiful baby girl. Three weeks later, she was diagnosed with cancer. My mom suffered a massive heart attack and was in the hospital for a while right after the baby's birth.

My mom died very suddenly four days after the baby's Christening, and my dear SIL started her treatment for the cancer. She suffered horribly and ultimately died in August of 2003.

My crisis lay in that I felt we had suffered enough with the loss of my mom and I begged and begged the Lord to spare this young mother, even traveling to Lourdes to obtain some water for her. It was not to be.

Now, my brother and that beautiful baby are alone and he is doing a great job with her, but I am still angry at what happened.

This year, a dear friend was killed in a car crash. The driver was extremely drunk and the friend didn't realize it, he was just bumming a ride. Two kids, a wonderful wife and why? I know there are no answers for this, but it has shaken my faith a little. I know I will get it back.

[Stunster]

15. I think God is in our anger at God

if that anger---or even just our questioning---springs from compassionate love.

It sounds to me that your crisis of faith is a sign of compassionate love.

Catholicism says that even God experienced what it was like to feel abandoned by God---which is an amazingly radical thing to say, if you think about it.

Many people will suffer terribly in this life. Jesus suffered terribly in this life. "God did not spare his only Son..."

Somehow or other, Jesus turns suffering, which is a sign of disorder within creation, into something redemptive.

If we don't have that faith in Christ, then we are faced with just the facts of suffering, and death. With faith in Christ, there is still suffering and death, but we are also made aware of resurrection. Our tears will gradually turn to tears of joy.

A young woman I know got married in October. Just before her wedding began, her father appeared to her in risen glory. He had died in May of the previous year, of cancer. This experience of resurrection made the young woman incandescent with joy during her wedding.

"Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believed"

[Maeve]

14. Not of my faith in God

But then, I tend to take the "You'd better have a good answer for this someday" attitude with things that go very wrong by my standards...

Crisis of faith with the Church--on a regular basis. Let's see...Eldest Son got a CCD teacher who preached against evolution in pre-confirmation class and the CCD director backed him up with arguments I could prove wrong in five minutes on Google...I object strongly to the "manditory volunteering" required for Confirmation. Since it includes required hours spent working for the church, I have trouble seeing how that differs from demanding payment for a sacrament, and that is a very touchy point for me. I've also watched other families move away from the church because they have felt parish life was all "take" and no "give"--Christ's love given only grudgingly. We paid fairly high fees for CCD, but my kids got a much worse religious education from that than I go for free in Sunday School as a little Methodist.

One of the best homilists/confessors/administrators I ever knew was accused of having an improper relationship with a teen boy, a charge that was made 15-20 years after the supposed occurence, with no outside evidence. He denied it and the bishop called it "a he said/she said situation" (not the brightest bishop in the world). But all accused are presumed guilty after the scandals, so...he's kicked out and that's that. I think it was Chesterton who said something to the effect that the Church MUST have divine protection or the fools in charge would have destroyed her by now.

[DemBones DemBones]

16. And isn't that worrying, that a man can be kicked out of

the priesthood because of one allegation that can't be proven? I have thought all along that some of the accusations are false, either a result of a false memory someone gets in bogus "memory recovery" therapy or just the result of an attempt to scam the Church out of money or "get back" at a priest for some reason. Think of the young man who accused Cardinal Bernardin of having molested him years earlier, later confessing it was a lie. I think he needed money because he had AIDS.

Teachers face the same risk of false accusations and there have been a couple of cases in my state where the kids finally admitted their stories were lies. Many people are all too eager to believe the worst of anyone in a position of authority. We all want the guilty to be kept far away from potential victims in the future but how can we be sure who is guilty and who isn't?

[Maeve]

17. Yes, it is

As I said, this one was a very good priest, too. Do you remember the preschool "Satanism" case back in the '80's--McMartin, IIRC, or something similar--little kids who claimed all sorts of outlandish things happened after their parents and an "expert" planted the ideas? It ruined several lives and turned out to have no basis in fact. And, yes, I think of the Bernadin case when I think of this one, too. he was strong enough to weather the witch-hunt; not everyone is.

Too many times accusations are accepted as proof--and the faintest whiff of a maybe is treated as evidence of total corruption. Sigh...now I'm depressing myself again.