What limit do you think Kerry should not cross to court vote.

[Mass]

These last few days, young enthusiast supporters of John Edwards have been posting what are supposedly actions by John Edwards to court votes. The latest example is below. A previous one was a link to his myspace.com page.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/438132p-369006c.html

I was wondering what you think of that and what limit do you think Kerry should not cross.

(I am not trying to start criticism of John Edwards. I dont even know if this article is truth, but it seems that the person who posted that thinks it is great, hence my question).

[globalvillage]

1. Oh, heavens no!

The Senator was trashed for windsurfing. I think yoga is a definite no-no.

[Mass]

2. I cant imagine that either. And myspace is a definitive no to me either.

[karynnj]

4. Good point - although I think the windsurfing criticism

was bogus anyway. Seriously, there was nothing wrong with the pictures. It is very strenuous exercise and Kerry is in excellent physical shape. If Bush were doing this, he would be praised for having the strength, balance and concentration to do it.

Seriously the small amount of original coverage I saw, showed a beautiful Cape Cod day with bues skies and the ocean. A grinning John Kerry, who incidently was NOT dressed as he was in the ad. (The ad used a cut out that I assume was real that they moved on a water background in a slow rythmic back and forth motion. The point here is they would have used windsurfing anyway.
(In fact in hindsight, Kerry should have challanged Bush, Cheney or any of his cabinet to join him for a short windsurfing experience - I think they would be chicken. If Kerry had any film of him really windsurfing, he should heve tried to get it shown. Or, showed some of his ice hockey footage in an ad.)

Think of what images zoga brings up, twisted like a pretzel, new age, first introduced in the US with TM, the sitar and the 1968 Beatles. Also, I may be really wrong but don't far more women do yoga?

[JI7]

20. yeah, a lot of women do Yoga

i never found interest in it. in Los ANgeles and i imagine most other major liberal cities there are a lot of Yoga places. people always think i should do it just because of my background. the only interest i have is maybe reading about it, but nothing more than that. i imagine the same with JK.

JK should just embrace his love for "extreme sports". for many people that is relaxing. Kerry looked great in the pics and video, he needs to show it off. if anyone brings it up he can make a comparison to politicians who play golf and how that's just not his thing.

the losers want him to think the sports he loves is a negative thing because they know people would think better of those than golf.

[karynnj]

28. I liked the comments in that Windsrfing magazine

that reflect just what you said. From memory, he spoke about how it let him clear his mind and focus. He mentioned that in a way it was like meditation. I think it would be good to have a President with healthy ways to keep his mind focused and clear.

I also agree that his sports weren't negative. How, in a sports obsessed culture, can having played 4 sports in college hurt? I loved the pictures of Kerry with the woman's soccer team, playing with the ball.

[beachmom]

38. Men do Yoga, too. And I recommend everyone try it before they diss it.

Hi guys, I'm back from my 30 day sabbatical, and darnit, I'm going to defend Yoga, because it is SOOO good for your body. Throw away the old stereotypes -- there are all kinds of Yoga these days including very athletic varieties (Power Yoga) in addition to the more meditative types and even therapeutic ones if you have back pain. My sister had major back problems, and started doing Yoga (she bought Yoga for Beginners with Patricia Walden), and it eliminated the pain. And it is not elitist or new age -- it's offered in every fitness center as well as churches (the fundies are even "christianizing" it, which is weird, but as long as people are doing the poses right, they're doing something good for their body).

Can you imagine a president who did Yoga, and encouraged Americans to do it, too? The health of the entire country would go up (and violence down, I bet you). Unlike windsurfing, EVERYONE can do Yoga, even people in very poor shape. And I remember reading an article in The New Yorker about Saudi Arabia, where a journalist was doing Yoga poses, and a Saudi man asked for instructions, because he wanted to learn to relax more.

The publicity part of it and Russell Simmons was somewhat cheezy, but . . . I think John Kerry should do Yoga, especially since he has had many injuries over the years, and it's a good way to relax. He should do it in private, though, and who knows for sure that he hasn't already tried it? However, it may not be his cup of tea, but with Edwards -- who knows? Maybe he'll like it, and consider doing a 10 minute practice in the morning. And Elizabeth, too. Many runners do Yoga to complement the pounding of running.

If people think Yoga is a fad, how many other fads do you know of that are 3,000 years old, withstanding the test of time?

On the political side of it, if a politician does Yoga, then they should talk about it in layman's terms (increases flexibility and reduces pain of past injuries) and skip the jargon and the more mystic parts of it, but nevertheless talk of it enthusiastically. Not run away from it in shame. I'm tired of being afraid of who I am, and I think Dem politicians should be, too. Having taken a 30 day break from the news and politics, most of what is talked about is SOOO silly. I mean, nothing sounds more macho to me than "Warrior Pose", and when you do that pose, you feel powerful, I guarantee you.

Yoga rant now over (somehow ranting about Yoga strikes me as counterintuitive, but oh well -- everything gets twisted like a pretzel when it comes to politicians, gossip, and pundits).

[Democrafty]

3. For me, it's not a question of a "line."

It's more that I would like to see the Senator only being true to himself, and maybe his family (i.e., tagging along at yoga class because it was important to one of his daughters or something.)

There are definitely things he does - hunting, The O'Reilly Factor, biking without a helmet - that I don't love, but there's nothing weird or desperate about them. I'm glad he has his own ideas about how he wants to spend his time.

[ray of light]

6. exactly! Couldn't have said it better.

[globalvillage]

10. I agree with both of you in principle,

but Sen Kerry would be PILLORIED for yoga. IMO, it's political suicide, and it will come back to bite Edwards in the very firm ass some day.
Sad, but true.

[Mass]

13. It particularly will come back to hunt him if he was not sincere but

wanted to look young and in.

[Mass]

14. I agree.

[Mass]

5. It must be the day. Is there an Edwards campaign to try to say he

did not want to concede. We have had half a dozen threads this last week or so trying to say that, and now, there is a thread by a Kerry supporter taking one snippet from the book absolutely without any context and trying to say that Edwards wanted to context (when, for how long, ... being absolutely irrelevant details, of course).

I can understand that some Edwards supporters would try to start this once again, but is it possible that there is more than that and that, after having been absolutely silent on this issue for 18 months now, Edwards's staff is trying to make him look good.

[karynnj]

8. The problem is the snippet doesn't even say that he wanted to contest

anything. It said he wanted to wait till they counted all the votes - which almost never happens. The Gore FL contest may be the only exception, if it was.

The problem is that there are 2 audiences. The people on the liberal blogs include some who think there is no doubt, Kerry won and it can be proved. These people will be receptive to comments implying Edwards wanted to fight.

The bigger audience includes people think Bush won or may think Kerry could have motivated more voters, but it can't be proved legally.

The problem is that Edwards runs the risk that in pandering to the first group, he will jeopordize his appeal to the larger mainstream group. It also opens him to the question of why he didn't speak up - America was at stake and why he didn't use any righeous indignation to work on this issue.

I think Edwards' problem if he pushes this (which the EE comment really doesn't) and does things like yoga to get close to people who can push him is that it hits too close to a perceived fault. Remember the Luntz focus group where (from Memory), he was categorized as insincere and slick. He, more than any other candidate will have to be very careful not to say different things to different people. (I know my 18 yr old absolutely doesn't trust him because "he weirds her out" - that was her position in 2004 and picking him was one thing she didn't like about Kerry.)

[ray of light]

7. Personally, if he tried yoga and liked it..

more power to him!


I think yoga is far less compromising than other situations pundits put them in.

[Mass]

12. I have no problem if he does something because he wants to do it and likes

it.

I have problem, however, if we are talking about doing somethink like that with the only goal to please somebody or a constituency.

[politicasista]

9. Interesting about Russell Simmons

"It showed that Edwards is flexible and has an open mind," Simmons pronounced. He added that the evening has sent the would-be White House occupant to the top of his list — and far above Sens. John Kerry and Hillary Clinton. "But I'm happy to go to yoga with anybody who wants to."

I remember him dissing Kerry to Judy Woodruff (when she was at CNN) during the 04 election for not "reaching out to AA." then she was advising us to take a look at Nader since people were falling for the spin that Kerry couldn't "connect" (yes, it's false).

In fact, I heard a lot of things similar to what Russell said about Edwards, how many AA said they would vote for Kerry "only cause Edwards was on the ticket." (My college friend once said the same thing). And I like Edwards (and his wife too). I think if Kerry is going to run again, he is going to have to work harder to win these types that weren't impressed in 04 over.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2738993&mesg_id=2739869



Yoga sounds relaxing though.

[Mass]

15. My problem with Edwards is that I never know when he is sincere or not.

He is very slick, just like Clinton. For example, when did he ever speak about AA. His biggest line about that was about his teacher leaving his school after it was integrated. Sure, it is a nice line, but what did Edwards actually do about this before 2004.

This is what disturbs me about Edwards. He speaks well, but where is the substance.

[politicasista]

16. I know he did during in 05

during the Rainbow PUSH convention. But I thought he did during the 03-04 primaries too.

[JI7]

21. i think it's just stupid that attending this Yoga class is seen as

the way to court African AMerican voters.

yet they care nothing about all the legislation Kerry does involving help for minority communities such as the funding for small businesses.

[politicasista]

23. True

I sort of wonder if him "not wanting to concede" is going to make him look good and make Kerry look bad.

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. Only if people keep repeating that lie n/t

[karynnj]

31. Even there - be careful that the liberal blogs are not

the universe of all Democrats. At this point, if you surveyed all Democrats, how would this fall out?

In 2004, which do you think most likely
A) Bush won the popular and the electoral congress - there may have been some irregularities, but they didn't affect the result.
B) Bush won the electoral Congress, but if there were no voter suppression (like long lines -legal, but slimy) Kerry might possibly have won.
C) Bush won the electoral Congress, but if there were no voter suppression (like long lines -legal, but slimy) Kerry would have won.
D) Kerry really won Ohio and if he would have challanged it, it could possibly have been proven and he might be President.
E)Kerry really won Ohio and if he would have challanged it, it would have been proven and he would be President.

Note that only D or E leads to a logical decision to contest - and even with everything RFKjr had 1 1/2 years later could not lead to Ohio giving its electors to Kerry. Remember also that the designation of the electors had to be made in December. A Kerry win wasn't a matter of a recount. The Constitution assigns the responsibility to the state legislature. If the issue was still unresolved - as it would be - even if they got a trial in that time period, it would be appealed - the legislature would have to resolve it and they were heavilly Republican. Without a whistle blower who could prove beyond a doubt that Kerry won - which still hasn't happened, neither the Ohio legislature or the Congress would change Ohio's electors.

My guess is that even on DU, if you sampled people on the site and asked them to choose I would guess that less than half of them would take D or E. (If you put it up as a poll, it would be higher because there would be self selection bias from the conspiracy people.) In the Democratic population as a whole, A or B would likely win. I suspect C might win in our group. From the Detroit comments, the Kerrys themselves seem in the C category. (and I assume Teresa was there first)

If Edwards made an issue of this, which EE's offhand comment really doesn't, this could help Edwards with the Deainiac types, but it could hurt him with the people who picked him as the most conservative 2004 candidate.

[politicasista]

34. I wasn't repeating the lie

I am just mad that it is being used to make Kerry look bad. The positive press that Edwards is getting now (i.e. article above) brings back some bad memories of the same garbage I heard in the real world during the 04 elections.

No one in the real world gets that it's the corporate media stupid, no matter how many times you have to explain things.

[ProSense]

11. Kerry should be Kerry, but whatever he does,

don't kiss or hug Bush!

[globalvillage]

17. Well, not much chance of that.

I am 100% behind 'let Kerry be Kerry', just hoping he has no desire to do anything like what JRE did here. If all voters were open minded, if the media was fair, and if republican political operatives were civil, then I wouldn't care if he wanted to take up clog dancing, but they're not, it's not, and never happen.
I can't see Sen Kerry doing anything just to be hip(or whatever it's called today) anyway, but until he rides that Harley up the WH driveway and parks it there for the next 8 years, I hope he just sticks with hockey and windsurfing and hunting and flying and bike riding and all the stuff he's always done.
The windsurfing thing, BTW, is just sexy.
I know. It's not very liberal of me. Oh well.

[karynnj]

26. You forgot his cycling

I say he continue the bicycle for 2 with Teresa as well - there's no way anyone can knock that.

[ray of light]

22. .... the thought!!!

:nuke:

[Island Blue]

18. My first thought when I saw a post about Edwards'

myspace.com page was, "oh, how high school of him". I don't know why, it just struck me that way. Maybe because the only people I know who hang out on myspace are high school and junior high school kids. I would hope that Senator Kerry wouldn't resort to this tactic.

As far as the yoga goes, I don't have a problem with that. It would be nice to think he would have the time to practice something like this in private, but I don't think it would win him any brownie points with the media if he did it publicly.

With windsurfing/kiteboarding, I say go for it Senator Kerry and while you're at it, head south and try our wind down here in North Carolina. We've got lots of it! :)

[JI7]

19. and Kerry gets attacked for snowboarding, windsurfing etc

and these are things he has done his entire life ? so that's my problem more than anything else.

and i really hope Kerry doesn't attend one of these Yoga classes or whatever the fuck they are.

[ray of light]

24. I can't help my kind thoughts about Edwards.

There's a story attached. One absolutely non-media or political.

When I saw him in 04, we were told by Edward's handlers that Edwards was not going to be autographing anymore, just quickly shaking hands. And there Nolie32fouettes and I were standing in the first row, next to this little five year old girl when Edwards was coming our way. This little girl hung her paper out there for him to sign.

You could see it on his face. Sign her paper and the handlers get pissed because then he has to sign everyone else's too. Or disappoint this little girl and sign nobodies. I stood literally one foot from him and could read every expression on his face. He looked at that little girl with sweetness and compassion in his face. He didn't want to disappoint her.

So he grabbed his pen and signed her paper. Then he signed Nolie's paper, shook my hand, and went down the line still signing things.

He made the right decision and his handlers lost.

[politicasista]

25. Wow, that's a nice story.

I like him and his wife. It's just unfortunate that people use him and the "concession" to tear others down just to promote him. That's the only thing I don't like.

[ray of light]

27. especially since the concension was not just JK

but was all of them!

[politicasista]

35. Exactly

Which is why I wish the concession talk and the "loss of respect" would go away, but it probably won't.

[WildEyedLiberal]

30. After that thread in GD today I think I'm done with Edwards

It's clear he wants to distort what happened to make himself look like the lone people's hero who wanted to "fight" (whatever the FUCK that even means in this context, no one will elaborate beyond facile and simplisitic kneejerk phrases) so that he can ingratiate himself to the left. I hope I'm wrong because otherwise I don't mind him but given his tactics the past several months I'm really starting to wonder.

[karynnj]

32. Has Edwards actually said something himself?

I do think Edwards has a tendency towards populist (or negative word, demogogic) language. In 2004, before the primary day with CA,MA, NY etc when the press was still speaking of it being a Kerry/Edwards race - though Kerry had really already won it, per The Candidate by Alexander, (Edwards)" made direct attacks on Kerry. Citing a Washington Post article that said Kerry would not be able to pay for his campaign promises. Edwards accused Kerry of engaging in "the same old Washington talk that people have been listening to for decades." "People want something different." (Kerry's response was "You should have learned not to believe everything you read in the paper.")

The reason this is significant is that it is a RW and a DLC talking point and Edwards in desperation - he was polling up to 50 percentage points behind Kerry in the big states and he had only 190 delegates while Kerry was within days of clinching the nomination. This showed some immaturity - or possibly an inability to concede that he didn't have a chance. (same as NOV 3??)

The other interesting point is that Edwards now has some proposals that were in the North Carolina newspaper in Catchawave's (excellent) link. The description was vague - but clearly his 2004 comment may be more true of his 2006 - and likely 2008 position. There's also a link to Edward's June 23, 2006 Iraq position which though the newspaper is somewhat vague, is more specific than anything I've seen. (It essentially said bring 40,000 home now and all home in 12 to 18 months - with no comments on what has to be done or backing for these dates.)


http://www.newsobserver.com/643/story/463236.html

[ProSense]

33. Who knows what the deal is, but one thing for certain

that (isolated) quote doesn't provide enough context.

Edwards writes that she first discovered a large lump while campaigning in Wisconsin 12 days before Election Day in 2004. But it was not until a visit home to Raleigh, a week later, that she had a chance to visit her doctor and get tests. She then told her husband that she probably had breast cancer.

She recalls talking with her husband about whether they should stop campaigning -- a move that was rejected when a doctor said a couple of days' delay in treatment would not matter.

Here she writes that five days before the election they were considering whether to stop campaigning because of the tests. We also know she learned the results the night before. Fast forward to this year, and Edwards is saying Elizabeth's health will determine if he runs.

In this context, and also knowing who else was in the room, makes the whole Edwards didn't want to concede argument a bit implausible.

[WildEyedLiberal]

36. I hope I'm just overreacting to the DU spin

I have a ton of respect for Elizabeth Edwards and I really have never had a problem with John Edwards, either. I'm suspicious of these constant attempts that keep appearing in articles about Edwards that make some spurious and unprovable claim that always try to put Kerry in a bad light, but that could just be the media trying to drive a wedge between Dems. God knows that wouldn't be the first time that ever happened. :eyes: So I'll give Edwards himself the benefit of the doubt unless something else happens.

[zann725]

37. If it's one thing JK learned in '04, BE himself..BE real. To be otherwise

means he WON'T connect with the "everyman" aross mid-America.

And in an analogy to the movie, "The Candidate," if he does cater he'll be just like the Redford candidate/character sitting in the back of the limousine going "blah, blah, blah."

Tell Truth to authority this time, JK. Just be JK. America WANTS and NEEDS "real" desparately.