Kerry Schedule Update: Will appear at Webb rally on Monday

[beachmom]

Rally around Jim Webb!
With special Guest
2004 presidential nominee
Senator John Kerry

When: Monday, June 12th
3:30 pm
Where: Campaign Headquarters
1916 Wilson Blvd. Suite #304
Arlington, VA

Everyone is invited to cheer Jim into the election!

Bring Your family and friends!


A few nice comments at the link at Raising Kaine (a blog that had previously made fun of Kerry; glad to see the change in heart):

http://www.raisingkaine.com

(direct link won't work, but this should be near the top)

Another interesting point: in a short debate on Hardball last night, Miller and Webb discussed who they would support in '08. Miller wholeheartedly said it would be Mark Warner, while Webb said he remains undecided . . . Warner had 80% approval rating in Virginia when he left office, so I thought Webb's unwillingness to rally behind him interesting. Maybe Webb will consider JK for prez, and back him up as a fellow Vietnam veteran, and one of an opposing POV on that war. That may neutralize some of the distrust of Kerry due to his anti-war activities.

In case you're interested, I'm still undecided, and due to a medical thing, I can't go meet the two of them tomorrow. Oh well, I'll meet those local Dems soon enough, and maybe see the winning nominee at a rally.

[fedupinBushcountry]

1. Hey Beachmom

I am still undecided too. I missed the Hardball debate, I forgot all about it. I read some e-mail that Miller sent out and said he beat Webb bigtime, I think it was from Miller, I'm so confused. :dilemma:

I wish we could get a few minutes with JK to let us in on his decision on choosing Webb.

I'm thinking of going to the breakfast tomorrow at Pembroke mall, just to get a sense of the feeling on the ground.

[beachmom]

3. I'm bummed I can't go to the breakfast (and that would have been

extra special if I could have met you), but perhaps another time. Let me know if you went to the breakfast, and what you thought of the two of them.

I thought Miller exaggerated in his e-mail about "winning" the debate. Miller had a nervous tick through a lot of the debate, but he did have good answers ready. Sometimes Webb was more vague, but I thought he had a little more poise.

[JI7]

2. anyone remember when Kaine had Kerry campaign for him ?

he didn't want Kerry to appear with him because it would hurt him among the conservative voters who still make up a majority in the state.

but he still had Kerry campaign for him in the more Democratic areas and send out emails to people telling them to vote for Kaine.

this thing with Webb, and especially considering his history with Kerry shows that Kerry does have a significant amount of support in the state, especially among the Democrats.

i still don't like it that Kerry endorsed him though. but hearing more about Miller's position on the issues and the way JK is himself i can understand why he would. even though i disagree.

[wisteria]

4. Miller coming out in support of Warner at this time looks like big time

pandering. I really take this as an indication that he will say or do anything just to get elected.
Webb's answer was more appropriate.

[beachmom]

8. Yeah, I saw it on Hardball, and as a Virginian, it struck me as

out of control, desperation pandering. And I had read NOTHING on the blogs; I just felt it as soon as I saw it. I think Webb is more apt to tell the truth -- sometimes this gets him in trouble. But his explanation for why he became a Republican and is now a Democrat again makes sense (Foreign policy and national security; but he was always more with the Dems on economic issues). My problem with Webb is his inexperience in politics. He HAS improved, but will he improve quickly enough to defeat Allen? I don't know.

[ProSense]

5. Miller is accusing Webb

of being anti-Semitic

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=RTD/MGArticle/RTD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149188374603&path=!news&s=1045855934842

http://www.forbes.com/business/energy/feeds/ap/2006/06/09/ap2805984.html

[beachmom]

7. Miller's arguments are weak in my view

I saw the poster originally, and anti-semitism never crossed my mind. I didn't see a "hook nose"; I just saw a reasonable caricature of Miller. Nevertheless, I didn't think it was a good poster. How's that for nuance.

I don't think that Webb is against minorities, but it just seems that he doesn't "get" them. He just states his opinion without thinking of every angle first.

Neither of them were fabulous on Hardball, BTW.

[ProSense]

10. I agree!

They both seem to be tripping over themselves!

[karynnj]

9. I saw the flier when it was posted earlier

at around the time of the Kerry endorsement. I thought it was a bit overkill and I didn't like it- but, although I'm Jewish, I didn't even see the carricature as anti- semetic. I assumed that it was a carricature of how the man looks.

Not having seen a photo, I just googled and found a photo on the front of a Miller positive site. Here's the link:

http://www.democracyinaction.com/dia/organizationsCOM/miller2006/content.jsp?content_KEY=1389

If anything, the cartoon UNDERSTATES his nose. There is no way you could draw Miller and not give him a prominent nose and have anyone recognize him. It would be like drawing Webb without red hair. I still strongly dislike Webb, in spite of him having the endorsement of someone I do trust, and need to see him actually do some positive things before I would trust or like him at all, but this is totally desparate and unfair.

I can't believe I am posting in support of Webb.

[karynnj]

6. I hope the medical thing goes ok

I think it would be easy to make too much of the 2008 comments. Miller is supporting the state's favorite son who he knows. I think Webb is likely being honest on 2008 and is undecided. I would bet that he sees military and foreign policy experience to be really important and sees Warner as weak on these issues.

I would be shocked if he supported Kerry. If he doesn't become Senator, his support may mean little. So, assume he wins the nomination and the election, he will then have a lot of contact with Kerry. The seriousness and genuineness of Kerry's support for troops and veterans could sink in. Seeing that Kerry is genuine now, he might even re-consider whether Kerry was exactly what he said he was in 1971. Changing his position on 1971 Kerry isn't necessary though - if Webb in late 2007 thinks Kerry would be the best CIC, it could happen. BUT, at this point, Webb's Iraq seems closer to the standard DEM position - or with Clark, Bayh and Biden.

Politically, he is at best a conservative Democrat - so I would guess he would be more closely aligned with Bayh. Supposedly he strongly disliked Bill Clinton (as much as he disliked Kerry? - who knows) and he was not supportive of women in the military, so I really can't see him endorsing any woman as CIC.) I would have said Clark, but supposedly he wasn't always positive about him (per a Clarkie post - when we all suggested that Kerry would never endorse him after all the nasty things Webb said. I have no idea what he thinks of Biden or whether more contact will make him more comfortable. I really can't see him endorsing Feingold.

If I had to guess, I would think that Gore, if he ran, might be most likely. Both Gore and Webb are essentially Southerners, somewhat conservative and adamently against the Iraq war from the beginning. They also are more reluctant to leave Iraq than Kerry. Unless Kerry and Webb became allies in the Senate and Webb had a fraction of Kerry's generorsity of spirit, I really don't see him endorsing Kerry, unless it was at a point where it came down to Kerry or Clinton.

[beachmom]

11. Thanks, Karynnj. Yes I agree with you that Webb was being honest

about being undecided for '08. I found Miller a little too "passionate" about Warner (like, hey, I'm with 80% approval rating Warner -- but Warner has remained neutral on this primary). I mean, Warner hasn't even declared for '08.

I'm not saying Webb would DEFINITELY support Kerry, but he hasn't ruled it out at this point. That's what I got from it.

[JI7]

12. i don't trust him

if he has said some not so positive things about both Kerry and Clark and his reluctance to say his home state potential candidate will be nominee in 2008 means he probably isn't even thinking about it at this point.

but i still question whether he will turn Republican if he is being this way with all these Democrats. i really wish Kerry would not endorse him, or at least wait until after the primary.

if he doesn't turn Republican again assuming he makes it to the Senate i think he would support Clark if Clark runs just because of the military thing and also because Clark endorsed him. the only way i can see him supporting Kerry is if Kerry is the only candidate with military background who runs in a primary and he bases his endorsement on that issue.

his answer about Warner and 2008 might also have to do with the fact that he doesn't want it to get in the way of the Kerry endorsement. if he does get into the Senate he may probably just get behind his home state candidate.

Kerry doesn't need any more friends like McCain which is what i still see Webb becoming like. remember, McCain was a Kerry basher early on before he came into the Senate. they became friends working together in the Senate. Kerry put aside any personal feelings to work on the issue as he seems to be doing with Webb. but we saw McCain turn into a whore again.

i'm not a big Miller fan.he seems like one of the Nelsons , Bayh or some other conservative Dem. but they are still reliably Democrats who we wont have to worry about turning Republican and supporting their candidates.

[beachmom]

13. Thanks for your insights, JI7, but there is the electable issue

AND the "Brand" issue. Which one -- Miller or Webb -- is more likely to have a chance against Allen? I have no answer for that for sure. Secondly, which Democratic "brand" is better? Because Webb is something new, I feel that his branding is better -- he's basically standing up as a leader to all the disaffected Reagan Democrats across the country. He's making it okay for them to "come home again". That's a pretty good narrative. We've already had the pro-business Democrats like Miller before. Webb's populist message MAY resonate. He may be to Virginia what Casey is to Pennsylvania for the social conservatives who are otherwise more liberal on economic issues. Webb may be an answer to the conservatives on military culture issues (that feeling some veterans have, fair or unfair, for being called "baby killers" by radical lefties in the '60s who they think represent the Democrats) who would otherwise want to be part of the Democratic party, but the past wounds of Vietnam and how soldiers were treated afterwards, has been a deal breaker thus far.

In regard to trust, I actually think Webb tells the truth more than Miller. This has gotten him into trouble, since it's sometimes better to find the BEST way about talking about issues, and leaving the WHOLE TRUTH out of it. For me, Webb has sufficiently explained his political leanings. He's not the only one. Condi Rice also was a Democrat until the U.S.S.R. invaded Afghanistan and she didn't think Carter was strong enough in his response. Her problem has been that she can thank her entire career on the Bush family; had this not been the case, I wonder if a realist like herself would have supported the Iraq War. SHE'S a lost soul, but other FP Republican realists may start to realize that the Democrats are more in tune with their values than the radical neo-cons.

In our newspaper today, each candidate got to say in their own words why we should vote for them. Miller's piece had a lot of bullet points. Webb's had just 3 main points and was full of the narrative of disaffected Reagan Democrats. I thought Webb's message was easier to follow. My newspaper has endorsed Miller talking about how smart and thoughtful he is; how he would be a better senator. They may have a point there. But maybe I'm looking for a movement to get the Democrats back to being the majority party. Webb may fall on his face, but I think publicity about him would turn heads ALL over the country.

When I first learned that Webb was entering the race, I was excited. I thought it was great. It was only after I read the things he wrote about Kerry that I turned against him. However, in Webb's piece today he said he's "no longer mad about Vietnam". His reconciliation with Kerry illustrates that point. I don't think either the Zell Miller comparison (an old Blue Dog Dem who turned coats OVER the Iraq War) or McCain comparison works with Webb. John McCain is a . . . Republican. RIGHT NOW. His horrid behavior is indicative of his party. In 2000 and in 2004, he could have switched to Independent and been a successful Senator, but he made the decision, with full knowledge of their unscrupulous ways, to embrace them wholeheartedly, including some of the WORST characters -- Jerry Falwell and the SBVT consultants. In short, he sold his soul. I don't think he did what he did because of his feelings about Vietnam. They were due to his out of control ambition to become president at all costs. Webb said some things about Kerry in 2004 that were very hurtful to JK AND to all of us opposed to the Vietnam War. But . . . he also did condemn the SBVT on the medals stuff, which he said was a bunch of lies. If you notice, Kerry is spending his time now refuting the medal stuff; his Dissent speech was how he dealt with the anti-war stuff but he tied it in with Iraq in a way that Webb could concur. When I went on that Kos thread a month or so back, I was demanding that Webb get over the Vietnam stuff and talk with Kerry. Well, he did what I asked, and really, he didn't have to. He has Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer endorsing him, too. Kerry was not necessary (his excellent fundraising skills notwithstanding), yet Webb made the decision that it was time to forgive and let go. We all know that Kerry is a person of high character who is ready to move on. Have any of us considered the fact that what we all said in several threads to Bob Kerrey and Paul Hackett were in fact passed on to Webb, and he decided to do what we asked? Webb is a netroots guy, so I think that is not a ridiculous notion.

So, as you guys may be realizing, I am now leaning Webb, even though I highly respect Miller. When it comes down to it, here in Virginia, I am a VERY pragmatic voter. I'm not going to necessarily vote for the most liberal candidate (something Miller isn't anyway), because my calculations will always be for the general election in a red state. Most likely, Allen will win (I don't have any illusions), but the prospect of having pundits talking non-stop about a Reagan Democrat running as a Democrat in a red state; well, that can only help our cause.

[karynnj]

14. Great post

I am so glad I don't have to vote in that primary. My opinion of Miller was really lessened by the "anti-semitism nonsense. I can see why you're leaning to Webb - and think your anaylsis that this helps correct the "brandidng" of Democrats. (Even if he loses against Allen, if he remains as a strong voice on the Democratic scene in Virginia that could help.)

I agree with you on McCain. I do think it was his desire to be President that was his main and possibly only motive. I suspect that he may have given his name to this group because he genuinely thought Kerry had the potential to win the nomination and Presidency and had the potential for being a strong president. 2008 is his last slot - if he's not already too old. Running for an open seat or against a weak President would be similar - so he likely feared Kerry. He also likely knew Kerry well enough to know Kerry won't respond in kind if he runs in 2008.

On Webb, I'm glad he said that he's over Vietnam - I'm not sure I believe him - but it may be that with what's happening in Iraq, he has the moral maturity now that Kerry had at 27. The fact that he and Kerry spoke for several hours likely means that Kerry sees him as a gain for the Democrats. Like you, it is a pragmatic move. Kerry's motivation was likely for the country and the party before his own career. When you consider that some say the real competition for Kerry is Hillary, Warner and Edwards, if Gore doesn't run, a Webb endorsement might happen. (The dynamics are most interesting with Edwards - Webb seems the type who would bluntly call Edwards on his effortless shift from IWR co-sponsor who was for the invasion even if there were no WMD to "I was wrong" when others don't. It may be that their common southern background would bond them, but I somehow think that the non-slick Webb has likely met and disliked slick people before. )

[fedupinBushcountry]

15. Hey, Beachmom

I didn't go yesterday, I have Crohn's disease and it decided to act up on me yesterday, so no way I could go anywhere.

Very good post. I read the article today in the paper and have read about everything I could find on both of them. I still have things I disagree with on both,but I have this gut feeling that JK talked sense into Webb, I see a different Webb then say 4 weeks ago.

Because of my trust in JK and knowing he has my back, I will most likely vote for Webb. Whichever one wins it will be tough sailing, but with the Iraq situation still the number 1 concern among voters, I think Webb stands a better chance.

I thought choosing who I wanted to run for President was hard but that was a cakewalk compared to choosing who to vote for in this race.

[beachmom]

16. I'm sorry you couldn't go either (we both had medical reasons)

From the paper it said there were 150 people there, including David Ashe, Phil Kellam, Owen Pickett, and the mayor.

I chuckled when you talked about how this was harder than the presidential race. I didn't even participate in the primaries in '04, but knew Kerry was the best of the lot. This Senate race is tougher. It was easier when Kerry and Webb were estranged, but I'm glad they reconciled. I'll definitely post any links I get to Kerry's rally for Webb tomorrow in Arlington. I do like reading the comments by Webb supporters who are truly thankful to Kerry for that endorsement. They seem to think that was the biggest endorsement Webb got.

[karynnj]

17. It's nice that they appreciate it

Even if they didn't think Kerry the most important of the endorsers, it is the biggest endorsement because their are people (like you, fedup and Kleeb) who were put off by his actions towards Kerry. The endorsement asks Kerry supporters to put that aside. It may well take one group of voters who would have had difficulty voting for Webb and shifted many of them to Webb. Kerry impresses me that he could do this.

[beachmom]

18. MSM readers, however, will know none of this

The Webb/Kerry story was largely under the radar. Kerry's endorsement was NOT mentioned in my paper, much to my chagrin, not even today when they talked about "prominent Democrats" endorsing Webb. They only mentioned Harry Reid and Chuck Schumer. I guess that's the usual snubbing done in the MSM (hey, let's pretend Kerry doesn't exist, sigh).

[karynnj]

19. Maybe they'll cover that when they're together tomorrow

Or will they ignore it because it's not local. I can't imagine that Suchumer is more popular in VA than Kerry.

[JI7]

20. those are good points

and good reasons for supporting Webb. i guess it is Webb's history which bothers me most than anything else and contributes to my lack of trust in him.

it's also unusual for elected officials not to support their home state candidates nationally. i still see Miller's comments on Warner being 08 candidate as making more sense. but as i said, Webb's comments may have to do with just showing respect for JK who is considering running since he will be endorsing him.

i do want to beat Allen but if Webb turns Republican or against the party than it would not be worth it. but you gave good reasons for why that would not happen.

i'm glad i don't actually have to vote in this election. i would probably go with Miller just because of the trust issues i mentioned. but i always made clear i would support whoever ends up being the nominee against Allen.