Ok call this stupid but

[JohnKleeb]

I am thinking about not voting in the Virginia primary or writing THomas Jefferson in as a candidate. I know it's immature but there's so much I've learned about both candidates that I sincerely do like a lot and some that I sincerely hate like no other. Sorry to give y'all non Virginians more of our soap opera called Virginia Democratic Politics. We're just probably a little excited since no one challenged John Warner four years ago after he barely won in 1996. I will say this though I will vote for either candidate in the general election at this point.

[beachmom]

1. I'm with you JohnKleeb -- The Choice sucks, but I am bound and

determined to make a decision and go vote. It's my duty as a Democrat. Andrew Sullivan hated Bush and Kerry in '04 based on what was important to him. But he refused to just not vote, and wrote his endorsement of Kerry as "managing risks". Now obviously, I strongly disagree with him, but there are Webbies who would strongly disagree with our ambivalence about this election, too.

So think of the issues in Virginia that are highly important to you, and choose the candidate you find to be the least risky. Iraq is the most important thing to me -- Webb was against the war from the start. But will he support Kerry's Sen. Res. 36? He did say he was not an "out now" guy. Oh, maybe I'll ask the Webbies if he has an Iraq plan.

Sigh, it's tough, but I feel duty bound to do it. Nevertheless, by not voting you have made a choice, too.

[JohnKleeb]

2. It is tough

Yeah we are duty bound to vote but I may be out of the precinct area the day of the primary. I'll vote in the GE of course.

[beachmom]

3. Also wanted to say I'm sorry your grandfather was in the hospital

Yeah, you should tend to him as your first priority.

You know from all of this what it means? We can look forward to seeing Barfbag's face come January in the SFRC. Just warnin' the others from out of state.

[JohnKleeb]

4. Thank you

I am sure my grandparents will be happy when barfbag goes too. They're who influenced my value system I think more than anyone.

[beachmom]

5. Hey John -- somebody on the Kos diary just said the same thing

He's thinking about writing in Mark Warner. So you are NOT alone.

[JohnKleeb]

6. Good deal

I am writing in Thomas Jefferson though if I can. He's my favorite guy of all time from our state.

[GRLMGC]

7. I kinda know how you feel

Our Democratic governor primary is getting ridiculous. Both candidates are making eachother look so shady that they're doing Arnold's work for him.

[JohnKleeb]

8. Yeah

Anyhow, hope that primary goes well, negativity agh hate it.

[beachmom]

9. I just made an appeal on a VA blog to both campaigns

to immediately stop the negativity (official and nonofficial on blogs), and sell their candidate. They need to go positive or else we're seriously in trouble. If we can't defeat Allen, we at least need to bruise him in this campaign. And both camps have been a disappointment thus far in selling their candidates. Before you know it, Allen is going to be running against . . . Thomas Jefferson!!

[JohnKleeb]

10. Thanks for doing that

It's likely to be Jefferson. The best Virginian president.

[beachmom]

11. I just went to a pro-Webb blog AND a pro-Miller blog, and gave

a list of my grievances. I realize now that based on my questions, I have more problems with Webb than Miller. My problem with Miller has to do with whether he will support the people's interests or corporation's interests. Can he make the transition. I also asked both blogs whether their candidate would support Sen. Kerry's resolution on Iraq (I think his endorsement of Webb is irrelevant on either candidate's position NOW on Iraq). Based on their answers, I will make my decision. Maybe this might help you, too, and persuade you to reconsider, and back one candidate.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Thanks for doing that

I may reconsider but remember what I said about being out of my precient possibly. I know it sounds like an excuse not to vote but I think family has to come first in this situation but if I am home, I'll vote just not decided for who yet and I am considering writing in George Marshall too if I can. I talked to my folks about helping out my grandparents and they both are down with the idea and I like the idea too because I need to do get out of the house and do something right for once. Plus it may also be a good way to better understand myself. As I said yesterday, yesterday was the first time in a long time I thought at length about my mom's brother who died when I was just a little kid. Looked at the picutres of him and it's interesting how much I resemble him.

[beachmom]

13. Oh, of course, most definitely -- personal life comes first

I just think at one point you mentioned that you were going to write in Thomas Jefferson, which meant you were planning on showing up, just not voting for either candidate. But your grandfather is more important than this sorry primary. Either way, perhaps the answers the bloggers give will help for the General for you, so you can become an effective advocate for the Dem (which is kind of hard to imagine, but I digress).

Also, Fedup is doing some research, too.

[JohnKleeb]

14. Looks like I am gonna be in town that day

I did and now I am thinking about writing George C. Marshall in :D. Glad FedUp's doing research. It's frustrating as hell. I talked to my mom at work btw and I am gonna be going over there tommorow or wednesday for a couple of days so thats why Ill be home here.

[beachmom]

15. Miller Questions and Answers

Alice responds to my questions:

Thank you for reading my blog, while I in no way speak for the Miller campaign, I will do my best to answer your questions, he will be at the Virginia Beach breakfast, so you can ask him in person if you like -

1. It is obvious during Miller's time at the ITAA that he was representing IT corporations and had only their interests at heart. I was particularly disturbed that WHEN IT MATTERED MOST, Miller promoted NO paper backup for the e-voting machines. True he has changed his position now, but is that just political expediency. In short, can Harris Miller make the transition from representing corporations to representing the people? Because the people's agenda is WAY different than corporations, and, in fact, I am sick and tired of corporations basically running Congress. Yes, they deserve a place at the table, but it seems they're the ONLY ones who get a voice, instead of working Americans. Whose interests will win out for Harris Miller -- the people or corporations?

Like you I regret that he did not support paper ballots when we could have nipped this thing in the bud, but he has now truly seen the light and understands that the legitimacy of our electoral process is at stake. I am confident that he will represent Virginia with the same determination that he represented the ITAA. I don't know, but I think the Republican fundraising/shakedown culture of corruption is part of the reason he decided to run. He has been very aggressive about going after Allen's connection to the oil cartel.

2. What is Harris Miller's position on Iraq? Did he in fact support the invasion in March 2003 (different from supporting IWR in '02), until things started going wrong? And what is his position on Iraq NOW? Would he consider supporting Sen. Res. #36 by Sen. Kerry. This calls for a complete withdrawal of combat troops from Iraq by the end of the year as well as a Dayton like Summit between all parties in Iraq, the U.N., NATO, and all countries in the region including Iran and Syria? Or is he more middle of the road, more like Joe Biden/Hillary Clinton which criticizes Bush but essentially leaves troops there indefinitely.

As President of the ITAA, Miller took no public position. I have no idea what he thought before the war. I do know that he was one of Howard Dean's chief fundraisers. It is a little difficult to believe that he would have supported Howard Dean had he thought the Iraq war was a nifty idea. After the Dean campaign collapsed Miller supported Kerry, he donated $2,000 in August of 2004 and helped to raise money for Kerry. I don't know what Miller thinks of Res. 36, I do know that he thinks Rumsfeld should be fired, this is his plan for Iraq, so you can judge for yourself.

3. What is Miller's position on judges? Would he have supported the filibuster of Alito, or instead behave like the typical red state Dem and go along with the RW agenda.

In his interview with in WTOP in Feb or March, whenever, he said he would have voted for cloture (against the filibuster) and against confirming Alito. I am hoping his views on right wing judges has hardened since then. But you can ask him for yourself.

11:48 AM

From his website, here is his position on Iraq (I would call it a dash of Dem Real Security, a teaspoon of Kerry, and a dash of Biden -- in short, middle of the road):

Establishing a Clear Exit Strategy to Bring Our Troops Safely Home from Iraq

The decision to go to war in Iraq was a disaster - rushed, based on faulty intelligence, and made without a plan for victory, for reconstruction, or for getting American troops home. Now, the Bush Administration and its allies like George Allen are indicating that they expect an open-ended commitment to an American presence in Iraq, stretching into future presidencies. This is a strategy dooming the United States to failure, as well as to hundreds of billions of dollars more spent, and the unnecessary loss of thousands more of our brave men and women in uniform.

It is time for a change. Harris Miller will fight for a tough, smart Iraq strategy - one that protects America's national security, leaves Iraq a more stable country, and gets American troops safely home as soon as possible.

Demand a Real Plan with Benchmarks for American Troop Withdrawals. The United States must make it clear that there are no plans for a long-term or permanent presence in Iraq. An open-ended commitment like that suggested by the President leaves Iraqi factions little incentive to take decisive, independent action towards stabilizing their country.

Instead, the United States must develop a clear and comprehensive set of benchmarks for Iraq's progress towards self-enforced security - including numbers of Iraqi troops trained, numbers of Iraqi police prepared, portions of the country under secure leadership, and numbers of established civic and governmental entities. These benchmarks must be established in consultation with American military and diplomatic experts, and they must be firmly tied to specific phases of troop withdrawal. Only with a clear, specific plan can we signal to Iraqis our true intentions and get our uniformed men and women home as soon as possible.

As Senator, Harris Miller will demand that U.S. military and diplomatic leaders establish a clear plan to bring American troops home from Iraq, tying specific phases of troop withdrawal to specific benchmarks in Iraq's progress towards self-enforced security.

Increase Pressure on Iraqis to Cooperate and Assume Responsibility for Stabilization. An immediate and abrupt withdrawal of American forces would not only leave a chaos-creating vacuum in Iraq, but also compromise long-term American national security. The wholesale destabilization that would result in the region, and the breeding ground for international terrorism that it would almost certainly create, would constitute an extreme threat to future American security. We must put immediate and powerful pressure on Iraqis to stabilize their country and assume responsibility for their own security.

As Senator, Harris Miller will call for a security summit of Iraq's factional leaders at which the United States should make it clear that it will use its power to aid those factions who cooperate and compromise in the move towards stabilization and punish those who do not.

Restoring Real Leadership to the Department of Defense

The United States has a long history of military supremacy and has trained and prepared some of the world's most intelligent and dedicated military minds. Prior to the initial invasion of Iraq, many of those military leaders expressed concern that the Bush Administration had failed to plan a sufficient strategy for victory, reconstruction, and withdrawal. Their voices went unheeded. Now they are speaking out again, and we cannot make the same mistake twice.

Demand the Resignation of Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. Many of the United States's most accomplished military leaders, including retired generals who served under his leadership, have called for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. As the architect of our current disastrous situation in Iraq, Rumsfeld failed to plan for the Iraqi insurgency and alienated America's international allies. He disregarded the advice of military experts during the run-up to war and has habitually dismissed those who challenge his judgments. Secretary Rumsfeld has failed in his duties to adequately lead America's military efforts, and he should be replaced.

As Senator, Harris Miller will call for the resignation of Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for failing our troops and military leaders in Iraq.


I'm not sure if Alice sold me on Miller, but she has sure sold me on herself. I like that she was honest in her answers about some disappointment with Miller on a few issues.

[beachmom]

16. Webb Questions and Answers

My questions:

Hi Lowell (4.00 / 3)
We met at dKos, and I gave a long comment for why I was supporting Harris Miller; well, apparently I didn't have all of the facts (I found the Diebold stuff especially troubling). Plus the Kerry endorsement of Webb was very significant because it removed a HUGE issue for me, in regards to past things Webb said about Kerry regarding Vietnam. If Kerry can be forgiving, well than perhaps I can be, too. Still, I'm in a place where I don't particularly care for either candidate due to all of the negativity. Here are my questions:
1. Will you guys stop the negativity and ONLY be positive about Webb from here on (official and nonofficial)? Because I know people who are planning to write in Thomas Jefferson or Mark Warner. Negativity can only get you so far.

2. What precisely is Webb's position on Iraq NOW? Would he be willing to support Kerry's Sen. res. #36? This calls for all combat troops to be out of Iraq by the end of the year, in addition to calling for a Dayton like summit to get all Iraqi parties together plus the U.N., NATO, and countries in the region including Syria and Iran. Or is Webb more apt to go with Joe Biden's position which is far more vague, criticizing Bush, but essentially keeping troops in Iraq indefinitely?

3. Any guarantee that Webb intends to remain a Democrat? Will he suddenly switch to Independent when he gets in the Senate or will he truly join the Democratic caucus, and compromise, which is an essential thing for a Senator to do?

4. Will Webb improve on his knowledge of domestic issues (Miller was much stronger in the debate on this), come up with more concrete plans, and simply talk about it better?

5. Will there be more discipline in the Webb campaign as to organization, fundraising, and the steady job of getting the message out? Can Webb try to control his temper and not be caught saying things like "Shut your mouth", because Allen will be MUCH worse than Miller in annoying Webb, I can tell you.

Sorry, it's a lot of questions, but all of these things are bothering me. I'm probably going to go over to Alice's blog with a similar list of grievances. I WILL make a decision on this primary and not cop out with a write in. Thanks for your time.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by: beachmom @ June 05, 2006 at 08:35:10 MST
< Reply >


Lowell's answers:

* Thanks for the questions, let me try to answer them (4.00 / 2)
Hi beachmom, and thanks for stopping by RK! :) Let me try to answer your questions as best I can.
1) If by "you guys" you mean me, aka "Lowell the Crazy Blogger," I can definitely say that I PERSONALLY plan to focus on Webb's positives over the next week. I will also PERSONALLY rebut any charges against Webb that may or may not be leveled by Harris Miller or his surrogates. As far as others who post on this site in diaries or in other forums (fora?), I can't control them. However, I believe that the Webb mailers hitting mailboxes this week will be overwhelmingly positive. With John Kerry's endorsement, and an almost-certain lead over Miller, I think that we can afford to talk about how great Webb is. (of course, then we'll be attacked by some people for being "blindly pro-Webb" or whatever...such is life!)

2) Aside from opposing the invasion in the first place (Miller supported it), Webb has been very clear that "We went into Iraq precipitously; we have to get out carefully." He has talked about a 2-year time frame. He has also said that we should state unquivocally that the United States has NO interest and NO intention of remaining in Iraq permanently. Overall, we need to work with our allies in the region (and elswhere), and we need to get out.

3) Obviously, there are no guarantees in life. However, Jim Webb has spoken eloquently and strongly about why he has switched to the Democratic Party. Personally, I believe that Jim Webb is one of the most sincere people I've ever met, almost too sincere for the nasty game of politics. For instance, yesterday he was pressed by two Republican for his positions on abortion and the "marriage amendment," and he didn't back down at all from his pro-choice, anti-marriage amendment stances. In other words, Webb doesn't just tell people what they want to hear. Here's Webb on why he became a Democrat - and why I believe he will stay one the rest of his life:


When I started studying Andrew Jackson, I realized that I was really a Jacksonian populist Democrat. Jackson believed that you don't measure the health of a society at the apex but at the base. I believe that too, and that's why I'm a Democrat.
I have personally heard Webb say that he intends to remain a Democrat the rest of his life.

That, combined with his Progressive stands on many issues, is more than good enough for me!

4) Webb is a voracious reader and a brilliant man with insatiable curiosity. He has been studying up on issues on which he had been relatively unfamiliar, like the intricacies of "No Child Left Behind," etc. I have heard Webb speak 3 months ago, and I have heard him speak recently, and I can definitely say that he's getting "up to speed" fast. Of course, this is a guy who taught himself how to write while at Georgetown, and proceeded to pen one of the greatest Vietnam War novels ("Fields of Fire"), so why am I not surprised? :)

5) I can't speak with a GREAT deal of authority about the Webb campaign, but I WILL say that this has been a 100-day campaign when it should have been a 1-year campaign. I have talked to Steve Jarding, who teaches this stuff at Harvard, and he has told me that normally you would NEVER run a campaign in this way. However, for a variety of reasons, Jim Webb was late getting into this race, meaning that we had a lot of catching up to do. I see definite signs of improvement, and expect a lot more after June 13.

As far as Webb's "temper," I haven't really seen it myself. The comment to Miller was made because Webb couldn't get a word in edgewise. However, I think your point is valid about not losing one's temper against George Allen. Of course, it works the other way around too. I can't wait to see George Allen try to debate the issues with Jim Webb. This should be fun! :)
*************************
Well, I hope this helped you make your decision. Let me just close with some words from Time Magazine this week:


Webb may turn out to be a crucial figure in the recent history of the Democratic Party. For the past 25 years, the tide of political conversions has been running in the opposite direction, from Democrat to Republican, and most of the converts were people like Webb: white, Southern, middle class or poorer, patriotic and, often, with a strong family tradition of military service...Webb's conversion may be a sign that those sorts of people may now be willing to give the Democrats a second look. A standard-issue Democrat like Miller would probably be cannon fodder for a Republican incumbent like Allen, a party star and probable presidential candidate. It wouldn't be an easy race for Webb either, but his candidacy might begin to redden the Democrats' necks in the South. And with his pugilistic history—he fought a famous bout against Oliver North at Annapolis—Webb would surely give Allen a tussle.
Thanks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by: Lowell @ June 05, 2006 at 09:29:18 MST


I liked that Lowell did acknowledge a couple of my complaints. Bloggers definitely get nicer when you say you're undecided, don't they? I forgot to ask about the Alito filibuster, and also what Lowell says about Miller supporting the Iraq War doesn't jive with what Alice said. I'll follow up on those two things.

[JohnKleeb]

17. Thanks for doing this for all three of us

I honestly do like that Webb's interested in Andrew Jackson. I've been really interested in him as of late.

[beachmom]

19. Another Webb supporter answers

let me add a bit to what Lowell offered (0.00 / 0)
Webb started life as a Democrat, and in his most recent book talks about how one female relative would not even let him into the house because he working for a Republican. These were solid New Deal Dems, people who know the difference the FDR made. In running as a Dem Webb is returning to his roots. Given his exploration of those roots in writing "Born Fighting" and what he has seen of the current Republican party, both on Iraq, on how it tilts towards the wealthy and the religious right, you can be pretty darn sure he is back to stay.
He is
- pro choice
- pro gay rights
- opposed to the war in Iraq
- opposed to outsourcing
- believes in public education

I could go on and on. The one way he is somewhat different, pro-gun, he explains clearly as connected with the first two items above -- government stops at his door unless it has a compelling reason to come in.

Let me talk about education a bit. When Jim started this campaign, he did not know much about education policy. He is a sponge, and those of us trying to help with policy (as I attempt to do with education, although since school is still in session and since I also have major responsibilities for Yearlykos I unfortunately do not have enough time right now, even had I not been very sick last week) have been asked for more and more specific statements that Jim wants to be sure he understands fully.

I for one am glad he slapped back at Miller in that first debate. I have known Harris since he ran unsuccessfully for a House nomination in 1984. If there is one thing he is not, it is straightforward. He does not accept responsibility for his errors -- and sometimes digs himself deeper as a result. he still has not apologized for giving money to republicans like Hastert and Abraham in 2000, and tried to excuse it by saying his employers made him (which would have been a felony) then frantically calling the press to say he meant to say they strongly suggested. Contrast this with Webb, who publicly acknowledges he was wrong to support Bush and Robb in 2000, and has apologized personally to Chuck and Linda. Jim shows growth as a person, Miller shows growth in his ego and his bank account.

Harris could no longer match Jim in raising money from other people, so he dumped 500,000 of his own in, in direct violation of his previous public commitment to put in only 1 dollar for every 2 he raised from others.

Yes, Jim loaned his campaign 100,000 up front -- he had to have cash to operate and had to get going immediately. Please note LOANED. Miller to daty has GIVEN about 600,000 of his own money. In otherwords, more than half of his funds have come from his own pocket.

Draw your own conclusions, but I have a hard time believing that any thinking person who looks at all the information in the public domain about the two men could conceivably choose Miller over Webb except that one has an icnreibly stiff litmus test s/he expects a candidate to meet.

And let's put it simply -- Miller would lose to Allen by at least 15 points, and the national party knows it, and would put no money in. If Webb is the candidate, the national party will pour in millions to help take down Allen.

use your best judgment.

Peace

Teacherken

[JohnKleeb]

20. Damn this is tough

See, there's lots in Webb's past writings that I absolutely hate but I do like that he can show growth as a person. Still unconvinced for either, honestly.

[beachmom]

21. More Webb responses to my follow up questions

First, this from an interview. This was before the Kerry endorsement:

Questioner: You would never even get close to shake hands with John Kerry's hand. Rumor that you might acccept John Kerry's endorsement. Swift Boat veterans

Webb: I refused to shake Kerry's hand for 20 years, because of the way he testified in the hearing. I did shake his hand, will shake his hand, voted for him in 2004.

Swift Boat Veterans - I told them if you want to discuss what John Kerry did when he came home, that's fair game. At the same time, I believe what the Swift Boat Veterans did with regard to Kerry's military record was way over the top. No way Kerry could have manipulated that.

We need to shake hands and move forward before we die. The Vietnam War is over. When Jimmy Carter pardoned the draft evaders, that was it for me.

I voted for Mark Warner and I voted for Tim Kaine. I supported Bob Kerrey and supported Chuck Robb in 1994

Am I hearing that if Webb were a U.S. Senator that he would go on TV and defend Kerry's honor (with the medals)? Or am I expecting too much?

Now to another answer from Lowell, for which part of it is troubling because it's about a private conversation with Miller that I have no way of verifying:

You're welcome, glad to help (4.00 / 1)
1) Webb said that "I probably would have gone with the Democratic leadership on Alito."
2) No link. In a 2 1/2-hour meeting back in late December 2005, Miller told Josh Chernila and me a whole bunch of things, including:

*He would "flip the switch himself" on the electric chair
*He wouldn't commit to rolling back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans
*He strongly supported the US invasion of Iraq because Saddam was a threat to US interests in the region, Israel, etc.
*He was responsible for "Forward Together" and other aspects of Mark Warner's success as a politician
*He was a "genius" and a "visionary"
*(Patting his wallet), that "right there, that's the ITAA"

Since then, much of this stuff has come out in public. However, Miller has always managed to dance around the issue of Iraq, focusing mainly on how badly it was executed but not on his original support for the invasion. Gee, I wonder why THAT is?

I could go on and on, but maybe this is enough to give you an idea why I ended up opposing Miller so strongly. In contrast, when I met Webb around the same time, I was blown away by his intelligence - without him telling me that he was a "genius" - and also his remarkably progressive views on issues like gay rights. Not to mention the man's integrity, down-to-earth likeability, etc. Needless to say, I was sold...as most people who meet Jim are. I know this sounds like idol worship, and I am NOT saying that Jim Webb's a god or something, but I DO greatly admire him...what can I say?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

by: Lowell @ June 05, 2006 at 15:49:13 MST


I'm not sure how this squares with Miller working on the Dean campaign, unless he made an incorrect calculation that Dean would definitely be the nominee, and he wanted to be on the winning team. Actually, that is a bit of a strike against Miller that he worked for Dean . . .

[JohnKleeb]

22. Damn

This is so hard and ocmplicated.

[beachmom]

18. Hey Fedup, are you up for a Meet up Sat. Jun. 10th?

http://vbdems.blogspot.com/2006/06/webb-miller-in-vb-for-breakfast-and.html#links

Sunday, June 04, 2006
Webb & Miller in VB for Breakfast and Straw Poll

Both US Senate candidates, Harris Miller and Jim Webb, will be attending our bi-monthly breakfast at Jason's Deli (near Sears in Pembroke Mall) on Saturday, June 10th, 9:00 a.m. $8 for breakfast; all are welcome.

The VBDC will also be holding a straw poll for this race at this breakfast.

Things are winding down on this Democratic primary. June 13th!!! All the polls will be open, 6:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.

Just think... one of these guys will win and go on to beat the evilness that is George Allen. That's very exciting! Come to our breakfast and meet the man who will do the job.

The scary part is the Straw Poll -- I mean, geez, I don't know WHO to vote for!!!

[beachmom]

23. Oh, man, do I feel bad now.

Some time back I alerted the Miller campaign about the smears about him on the internet (and let's face it, that last response I showed from Lowell really amounts to a smear because it is about a private conversation that quite frankly sounds very unlikely and can never be fully debunked since it's hearsay). Well, he has my name, and sent me this rush package to make a donation. It was personally addressed to me. I don't know. Maybe I should just stick with my original instinct on this, and vote for Miller, even if I do have the knowledge of his corporate minded past. I'm just worried that maybe a Reagan Democrat Marine really DOES have more of a chance in Virginia than a wonky Dem like Miller. But Miller has many bonified centrist positions which many Virginians will feel comfortable with, and Webb is so unpredictable as to what comes out of his mouth . . .

I'm definitely going to that breakfast this Saturday and will see BOTH candidates. Maybe seeing them in person will make this decision easier.