Any word from Sen. Kerry on the RS article? Sounds like RFKJr.

[babylonsister]

got ripped apart on CNN, perhaps because of the silence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1338474

[politicasista]

1. Wolfie kept interrupting him

And spining the story that Kerry thinks that fraud didn't occure. Not to mention some repuke repeating garbage. Everyone was talking about how bad RFK jr. sounded (cancer?) that may not go well with the "average" American.

[babylonsister]

2. That's why I wish Kerry would make a statement of some sort.

I feel sorry for RFKJr getting all the heat.
And sorry, but screw those people who criticize his voice. He's sounded like that as long as I've been listening.

[politicasista]

4. I do too

I felt sorry for him too cause it looks like a lot of the information has from the article could lead to something major. It doesn't help that the media is GOP owned, but I too wish that Kerry would come out with a statement of some sort. The DNC/Dem leadership needs to get involved too.

[ProSense]

5. This was a nice post about RFK Jr. in another thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2657156&mesg_id=2658627

[babylonsister]

7. Thanks. That reinforces my belief Kennedy is a stand-up guy,

though I never doubted it for a sec!

[politicasista]

9. Thanks for posting this. n/t

[fedupinBushcountry]

6. Well

before they speak about the condition that RFK Jr. has they should prove what they are talking about, and it isn't cancer. :argh: What a stupid argument that it wouldn't go well with the American people. :wtf:

RFK Jr. was putting the facts out and he hit the media, poor Wolfie. As for the RW shill who is so full of shit its not funny, is blaming voting problems on voters, he could careless about democracy.

As for what RFK, Jr. said about Kerry, of course Wolfie left out all of Kerry's quote, and I'm sure John is ok with what RFK. Jr. said.

This shouldn't be a screaming issue, it is about all Americans right to vote, and the little hope of what is left of our democracy. This issue should not be a partisan issue. I hope RFK. Jr. continues with his fight, and it is we the American people who have to join with him, he like Senator Kerry cannot change things alone.

[politicasista]

8. Absolutely agree

It just unfortunate that it's all about me, me, me.:banghead:

[wisteria]

21. Who is the everyone who kept talking about RFK Jr's voice?

Truman Capote had an unusual voice too and that didn't keep him from being famous and well respected.

[politicasista]

25. It was a thread in GD talking about his voice

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1338464

[sandnsea]

3. Bobby should just say "John's wrong"

And get on to the points he wants to make. I appreciate what I perceive to be his loyalty, but sometimes you have to cut bait and get on with it. There's no reason for him to let the article get mixed up in what John Kerry may or may not think about winning the election.

JK likely still can't say the election was stolen because, from what I can see, there still isn't the kind of courtroom evidence that would turn the election. We've got election corruption for sure, I personally wish we'd stick to that and leave "stolen" out of it.

[rox63]

11. The reason JK can't take the lead on this issue

is that it would end up being about him, and people would assume that he was just being a sore loser. This is too big and important for it to be about one person, and JK knows that. This is about our democracy, and that's why others need to carry the issue to the general public.

[babylonsister]

12. I don't necessarily mean 'take the lead', but a little verbal support

probably wouldn't hurt. I do realize there are lots of issues still hanging fire but a brief press release might appease those who think Senator Kerry isn't addressing the issue.

[politicasista]

13. And.....

it may appease the whiners who think he doesn't care about this issue.

[ProSense]

15. Kerry's comments in the article and to the blogger are

statements. Why doesn't Howard Dean and the Democratic Party call for an investigation? (I think Dean, like Kerry, would need the party to stand behind any call). This is one of those issues where voters need to stand up instead of whining. What are people expecting in calling for a statement from Kerry? It will be just like the statement here:

Sen. John Kerry -- in a wide-ranging discussion of ROLLING STONE's investigation -- expressed concern about Republican tactics in 2004, but stopped short of saying the election was stolen. ''Can I draw a conclusion that they played tough games and clearly had an intent to reduce the level of our vote? Yes, absolutely. Can I tell you to a certainty that it made the difference in the election? I can't. There's no way for me to do that. If I could have done that, then obviously I would have found some legal recourse.''

Kerry conceded, however, that the widespread irregularities make it impossible to know for certain that the outcome reflected the will of the voters. ''I think there are clearly states where it is questionable whether everybody's vote is being counted, whether everybody is being given the opportunity to register and to vote,'' he said. ''There are clearly barriers in too many places to the ability of people to exercise their full franchise. For that to be happening in the United States of America today is disgraceful.''

Kerry's comments were echoed by Howard Dean, the chairman of the Democratic National Committee. ''I'm not confident that the election in Ohio was fairly decided,'' Dean says. ''We know that there was substantial voter suppression, and the machines were not reliable. It should not be a surprise that the Republicans are willing to do things that are unethical to manipulate elections. That's what we suspect has happened, and we'd like to safeguard our elections so that democracy can still be counted on to work.''


http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/4

That's a statement.


This is a statement too, and it's just as inconclusive:

"...I got to talk to him as we walked down the hall and rode down in the elevator together. I asked him about the Robert F. Kennedy piece that is coming out today in Rolling Stone in which Kennedy says that all the allegations of election fraud in Ohio are true, that the election was indeed stolen from Kerry, and that Kenneth Blackwell was definitely involved and it possibly went all the way to the White House. Kerry said he had seen the story and that he was quoted in it."

http://www.thehollywoodliberal.com/kerry_speech_pacific_conference.htm

I remember all the screams for Kerry to make a statement on Iraq (even though he had made several). Now he's calling for full withdrawal, made a statement, amended it by a week (in line with the Iraqi government), and now is following that up less than two week later with a call to action and pressing for the second deadline at the end of the year. Three threads and they all sank. No more screams, no more anything.


Write Congress! Write the press. Kerry can express outrage, but Kerry by himself is not outrage!

[babylonsister]

16. You're right, where is the outrage from other Dems? This affects

all of us. For that matter, where is the outrage from everyone? As I wrote in my LTTE's that you turned me on to, don't we ALL have a vested interest in seeing that elections are fair?
I mention Kerry because he's obviously connected to the article and the '04 election, but if he doesn't feel he can contribute more at this point, where ARE the other Dems?
Same ole, same ole. I'm gravely disappointed in my party. I know everyone is 'waiting for November', but what happens if, because of voting 'irregularities', we don't win the Senate or House? I wish they'd all come out swinging, at least about certain issues.

Edit to add this thread and me trying to educate. I did listen to Kerry's interview with Stephanie Miller again last night, thanks to Tay Tay pointing me in that direction:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=214715&mesg_id=214733

[ray of light]

29. When I saw him at the rally in Toledo he spoke clearly:

Ohio 'may have been' blue in 04 but regardless we all have to fight together for: election reform (and letting people actually vote and know their vote will count), healthcare, Iraq, jobs, education, and getting Democrats elected so that we can improve the direction of this country.

The difference being that he recognised the supression and the oddities, but he does not say in absolute terms, "Ohio WAS blue." There is a difference. And as long as kerry and any democracy loving person can talk about the integrity about our election system then we all win. It's why he implored people to FIGHT together in Ohio (and across the US) and to help turn Ohio blue in 06. And as a person who has worked on standardised testing, I can tell you with absolute certainty, that absolutes are not winnable points in your argument. (that's a joke.)

The election was certainly distorted and poorly run, and there was clearly partison suppression and civil rights violations, but Kenneth Blackwell spent lots of hours behind the scenes looking for LEGAL methods that were still on the books as a means of supressing the vote. And technically, because these antiquated rules were still on the books in Ohio that means that everything Blackwell did was in essense legal, even though it was clearly inappropriate and unethical. Make sense?

Kerry spoke about that too.

[fedupinBushcountry]

17. Wolfie conveniently left out

this part of Kerry's quote.

''Can I draw a conclusion that they played tough games and clearly had an intent to reduce the level of our vote? Yes, absolutely.

In my mind there were two main issues we needed to tackle after the election.

1. Electon fraud (the mahines) and the ways that voters were disenfranchised.

2. The MEDIA.

[ProSense]

18. Kerry even went beyond Ohio

...''I think there are clearly states where it is questionable whether everybody's vote is being counted, whether everybody is being given the opportunity to register and to vote,'' he said.

[zann725]

30. Well-said. Makes good 'sense'..."Prosense."

Like many things (as we-the-people are learning)...it IS up to us at times to get these things rolling. That IS what Democracy (theoretically) is about...the Will of the people. (Though it would help a bit more in this case if Kerry also hinted, even a little about his doubts of the '04 Results.)

Still...kick and recommend thread.

[karynnj]

22. The problem is that what Kerry said both in Ohio and

on Stephanie Miller is likely what he thinks. I see nothing wrong with those statements. They convey very clearly that the election was badly run and the Republicans suppressed the vote.

When you look at the Ohio graphic, it's clear that a fair number of the "votes" that Kennedy is counting were votes never cast. What Kennedy does prove - if he can defend all his estimates is that it is reasonable to think that it is likely that Kerry would have won if everyone who was eligible to vote could have voted in a reasonable amount of time.

All the suspicious things do add up - but they add up to a concern that we don't know if the election was stolen. The only absolutely clear thing is that the system is far from where it should be.

[fedupinBushcountry]

23. You know

I think people need to look at the title of the article. WAS THE ELECTION STOLEN IN 2004 ? Its the question mark at the end that made it just click in my mind. RFK Jr., lays out the facts and the evidence.

So he is saying yes Kerry agrees with the problems, and that he didn't know all the facts to prove it in time. He still hasn't been able to get in the machines. RFK, Jr. lays that out at the end of the article in order to wake people up and tell them if you want the truth we need the proof, which as of Nov. 2nd this year will be gone if we don't do something soon.

[ProSense]

24. Salon article answers: No

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1340747&mesg_id=1340747

From Iraq to the election, all people do is bitch about Kerry saying something, as if he alone constitutes public outrage. I wonder how many people have actually contacted the media about RFK Jr.'s aricle? Public outrage is the only thing Congress and the media understand. So what if only 39% think the war was worth it. If they don't hear from the other 60%, why should they bother.

Same with the election.

[sandnsea]

19. Not to mention

It wouldn't go over well in 2008 unless some key Ohioans or RNC leaders ended up in jail. Lots of reasons he can't really touch it, which is why those who are taking the lead should make it not about him. Simply saying "John's wrong" or "I don't speak for John, I speak for clean elections" would be enough to get the focus where it belongs.

[wisteria]

28. That sounds reasonable and it would refocus the discussion

to where it belongs.

[ProSense]

10. How about writing to the MSM?

Made simple here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2658991&mesg_id=2658991

[babylonsister]

14. I just did! Thanks again! nt

[wisteria]

20. Sorry to hear RFK Jr. got ripped on CNN, that is really too bad, but

this subject matter is bound to bring out the claws and I am sure RFK Jr. is well aware of this. Maybe his efforts will lead to cleaner elections- I certainly hope so,but he has opened the door to discussion and he should be proud of that. We now must keep that discussion going. I was a fence sitter even though I felt deep down that kerry won Ohio and was robbed of the Presidency.that is until RFK Jr., who has no stake in a Kerry Presidency had the guts to do what a lot of other people didn't. Call things out as he saw them, and back everything up facts.I have a new found respect for him. And, I have found my voice. No longer will I be silent. I will talk about this election and the results of cheating the rightful President out of his win. Most important though, I will do all I can to see that it never ever happens again.

PS, I found out the other day that my daughter, who voted by mail never had her vote for Kerry counted. She was dropped after the election from the PA voters list because she hadn't voted in awhile. That should not of happened. She did vote in the 2004 election, I personally made sure she followed the correct directions and watched her as she mailed it out. I would like to know how many others didn't have their mail in ballots counted.

[zann725]

32. Re: RFK's put-down on CNN. Remember Gandhi: "First they laugh at you....

then you win."

Did we really think CNN (given its recent leanings) would endorse/embrace the Truthiness in RFK's article?

...particularly given that CNN re-wrote exit polls on-screen on election night. Did we REALLY think they'd now say, "Yup, Kerry won. WE were wrong?"

True "Patriotism" is telling the Truth to Authority...standing alone at times when doing so also means having the courage to accept a less than luke-warm reception by those IN Power.

P.S. - I thought the article "rocked" AND told Truth to Authority. Like a breath of fresh air to this stale Admin. and ALL its lies.

[ProSense]

26. Really sick of the MSM trying to push this issue off as

partisanship or conspiracy. They created the Baker-Carter Commission to silence critics. Here is a snip:

The accessibility and accuracy of DREs, however, are offset by a lack of transparency, which has raised concerns about security and verifiability. In most of the DREs used in 2004, voters could not check that their ballot was recorded correctly. Some DREs had no capacity for an independent recount. And, of course, DREs are computers, and computers malfunction. A malfunction of DREs in Carteret County, North Carolina, in the November 2004 elections caused the loss of more than 4,400 votes. There was no backup record of the votes that were cast. As a result, Carteret County had no choice but to rerun the election, after which it abandoned its DREs. Other jurisdictions have lost votes because election officials did not properly set up voting machines.29

http://www.american.edu/ia/cfer/report/report.html

Complete fluff! This wasn't even a real investigation. This cavalier mention shows that there were real problems. The entire report is couched in vague language. It's crap compared to the reports by Conyers, the GAO and the DNC.

[wisteria]

27. I agree and I feel we can not allow them to get away with this any longer.

It is the proper time to speak up and maybe, just maybe they will keep and eye on the elections later this year.

[ProSense]

31. This is really good!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1338474&mesg_id=1343706