Mark Crispin Miller: Why Dem's are in denial about the stolen election

[sasha031]

I don't know if any of you have read this, I found it fascinating. I understand the terror some of the Dem's felt, because their knowledge of it being the truth leaves them with a feeling of such powerlessness. It's is a good read, I am going to buy the book.

Mark Crispin Miller: Why Dems are in denial about the stolen election


He tells the story about his meeting with Kerry, and the wider implications.
I was there when he gave this talk and he was really on fire that day. There is good humor interspersed. Here is a taste (this starts just after he told the story of his meeting with Kerry):

I don’t make things up. In this world, these days, you don’t have to make things up. (Audience laughter.) Do you know what I mean? You can’t. It is impossible to keep track of reality. So I tell this story to make a few larger points. It is not about Kerry per se. And it is not about my personal pique, about being treated so disrespectfully. This is not a personal issue. It is not even a partisan issue. It is a civic issue. It is a civic issue of profound importance. And I tell the story about Kerry partly to make clear that this is not a left versus right, or Democrat versus Republican issue. In fact, on this issue, it’s really the people at risk because of the collusion of the two parties. I think the collusion is passive. Some people have said that they know, they have made a deal, but I think that is unlikely.

If someone has the evidence, I’ll look at the evidence. But I don’t think that it is necessary for there to be a deal, because this has happened before. When you have a resolved, well organized, highly disciplined fascistic movement of some kind, (audience applause) right. (Audience applause) Let’s hear it for Fascism. (Sarcastically...Loud audience applause.) Calm yourselves. (Laughter) And they have a tremendous amount of social power and media influence, and they manage to get the press on their side for various reasons, those who would resist this, but who aren’t all that zealous about it, are simply going to deny that there’s a problem. Now why do the Democrats refuse to face this issue? Does it make any sense? Their existence as a party is threatened. They will cease to be, if this Republican party, the Bushevic party, (audience laughter) the theocratic Republican party, has it’s way, there will be no more Democrats. Now, one of the reasons that Democrats refuse to look at this, or read the evidence, or listen to it, is just corruption. Because a lot of democrats are in fact republicans. And in places like Ohio, rural Ohio....maybe you’ve had Bob Fitrakis come here and speak? ...(audience confirms)...as he explains to me and he says in his writing, the democrats in rural Ohio are just as much a part of the status quo as the republicans. They are very close to the Republicans and they all serve at the pleasure of Ken Blackwell. So they all toe the line.

http://www.oregonvrc.org/SpeakerSeries1

[MH1]

1. MCM does make things up.

Or at best, he shoots his mouth off when he should know better. (I still think he made it up.)

After his bashing of Kerry I won't even check his book out of a library.

[sasha031]

2. How do you think he bashed Kerry

I don't see that, Kerry was talking about how it was stolen. He listened to Mark, I am sure he read the book. Even Imus who Kerry visits was saying how Kerry was saying it was stolen.

[ProSense]

4. Kerry has never said or put out a statement

stateing that the election was stolen. He has said there were problems. All the recent statements by Kerry about his ongoing efforts and the lawsuits his campaign filed (which many of us already knew about) runs completely counter to what Miller continues to say. And now he (Miller) issues a statement indicting the entire Democratic Party? The man is beginning to look like a clown.

[sasha031]

5. read the article in it's entirety

I think Kerry didn't put out a statement because they can't prove it beyond a benefit of a doubt.
I love Kerry as much as you do, the article states about the denial. Which think about it, I was terrified they were going to steal it and I never heard of Miller.
What Miller was saying certain Dem's in Ohio not all Dem's!

[karynnj]

15. As a serious leader, the important thing to do

is to make the process secure, which is what he is fighting for. I do think that he especially can not say it unless there is rock solid proof. I think the claim of denial would be fair if Kerry and others were saying there were no problems or possible problems. I think MCM is in denial that shouting something or repeating it enough doesn't make something true.

The burden of proof, especially as the official results have been certified are with us.

[MH1]

10. MCM posted here at DU

There was a whole spate of bashing around MCM claiming that Kerry said to him that the election was "stolen", and then Kerry's spokesman saying that was a total mischaracterization of their contact that day.

I don't have time to go back and find the links but MCM seemed to be stoking Kerry-bashing at DU in order to get more attention for his book.

One thing is sure - Kerry will not ever use the phrases "the election was stolen" or "Bush lied" in any public statement anytime soon. Those are too inflammatory and the first will only be proven in a court of law, and the second infers intent which we cannot know.

It may have been a simple misunderstanding but instead of letting it go, MCM stoked the Kerry bashing. That is what I won't forgive.

[karynnj]

13. MCM gave him the book at the party where he CLAIMS Kerry

said that. I have never heard Imus claim Kerry said that and I have heard Kerry explicity say that he would never say that unless he KNEW for a fact that it were true. (on AAR Bender interview that played on Christmas.) That statement seemed very sincere and very much in keeping with everything Kerry says - he simply does not shoot his mouth off. He also is completely aware of the enormity of the charge.

As to his book the best comment in the review I read - was that the first half of the book claims it will prove that the election was stolen and then without any proof, the second half assumed it was proven. Nothing that he or anyone else has said or shown constitute a proof in the legal sense of the word. They can estimate the likely votes lost in Ohio due to suppression or irregularities, but in reality you can claim votes that never happened.

Even though facing a 4 hr + wait, it is very likely that people simply gave up - either immediately or after waiting a while - you certainly could calculate the number of votes in urban precincts with n+ hours of wait and determine what the % giving up would have to be to give Kerry the extra votes. (using the % Kerry/total in the precinct)- but what would this give you. Say, someone got the data and said that to win 15% of people seeing the line went away (and that if these people voted that precinct would have had a 10% increase in voter participation over 2000.) You could then say that you BELIEVE that at least 15% of people left and these were people who came out to vote - but a Republican would say that there was no way that % would leave. Neither can prove it.

[sasha031]

7. what do I know

I did hear Imus talking one morning (mind you I am not a big fan of the guy) Kerry had driven his bike to his house, Kerry told him it was stolen. I can imagine conversation between people, for Kerry to come out and Shout "I was robbed!" he needs the proof in black and white.
Max Cleland was ahead in polls in double digits, how the hell did he lose his senate seat!

[karynnj]

14. Are you sure Imus wasn't talking about MCM?

[ProSense]

3. All that to say this

"Now, one of the reasons that Democrats refuse to look at this, or read the evidence, or listen to it, is just corruption. Because a lot of democrats are in fact republicans."

To simplify his statement: The Democrats are corrupt, and a lot of them are Republicans.

Until Miller produces evidence that most of the senators below are corrupt and in fact are Republican, he should stop spewing BS. Miller hates the Democratic Party and his irresponsible and reckless statements prove it.

Kerry, John - (D - MA)
Akaka, Daniel - (D - HI)
Baucus, Max - (D - MT)
Bayh, Evan - (D - IN)
Biden, Joseph - (D - DE)
Bingaman, Jeff - (D - NM)
Boxer, Barbara - (D - CA)
Byrd, Robert - (D - WV)
Cantwell, Maria - (D - WA)
Carper, Thomas - (D - DE)
Clinton, Hillary - (D - NY)
Conrad, Kent - (D - ND)
Corzine, Jon - (D - NJ)
Dayton, Mark - (D - MN)
Dodd, Christopher - (D – CT)
Dorgan, Byron - (D - ND)
Durbin, Richard - (D - IL)
Feingold, Russell - (D - WI)
Feinstein, Dianne - (D - CA)
Harkin, Tom - (D - IA)
Inouye, Daniel - (D - HI)
Johnson, Tim - (D - SD)
Kennedy, Edward - (D - MA)
Kohl, Herb - (D - WI)
Landrieu, Mary - (D - LA)
Lautenberg, Frank - (D – NJ)
Leahy, Patrick - (D - VT)
Levin, Carl - (D - MI)
Lieberman, Joseph - (D - CT)
Lincoln, Blanche - (D - AR)
Mikulski, Barbara - (D - MD)
Murray, Patty - (D - WA)
Nelson, Bill - (D - FL)
Nelson, Ben - (D - NE)
Obama, Barack - (D - IL)
Pryor, Mark - (D - AR)
Reed, Jack - (D - RI)
Reid, Harry - (D - NV)
Rockefeller, John - (D - WV)
Salazar, Ken - (D - CO)
Sarbanes, Paul - (D - MD)
Schumer, Charles - (D - NY)
Stabenow, Debbie - (D - MI)
Wyden, Ron - (D - OR)


Another thing: why aren't the Democrats who aren't corrupt doing anything about it? Maybe because there is no evidence or they don't believe it? What about Conyers? He looked into it and issued a very long report that still doesn't say the election was stolen. If Conyers had evidence the election was stolen, that a law was broken, as a member of the House Judiciary Committee, he would have had no problem raising the question of impeachment. Is Conyers corrupt?

[sasha031]

6. I am so sorry I ever posted this here!

I don't think Miller was talking about the Senate! He talked about some Dem's in Ohio, state level!

[ProSense]

8. Not saying anything against you. There is no problem with posting it.

I'm only responding to Miller's statement. He was talking about the Democrats in Congress. He mentioned the Ohio party as an aside. Such an investigation is well beyond the realm of the local party. Look at how many groups were involved in trying to collect information and how much money was collectively spent to unearth the problems, file lawsuits, etc. The notion that people sat on their hands and laying that all on the Democrats is Miller's game. No one has solid evidence and without it, no one is going to definitively say in any official capacity that the election was stolen. If he believes it so strongly, he can go to Bob Fitrakis and all the lawyers that spent all that time and money looking into it, take the evidence they have to court, and stop whining.

[sasha031]

9. I am just so scared ProSense

If the Dem's' had been in power, none of this crap would ever of happened. We would not be bankrupt, 100,000's of people would be alive today,we would of not broken every international treaty known to mankind. We would all feel safe.
My lack of trust of the rethugs, I believe they will do anything to remain in power., and sleep more soundly for it.

[ProSense]

11. The path the Republicans are on is scary to me too.

I've always been a person who watches and listens to what the politicians are doing and saying. Some of my family and friends are finally taking notice: the one's with teenage sons, who lost jobs, who are now having trouble making ends meet because the price of everything has gone up, and so on. It used to be the government was somebody else's problem, now it's hitting people a lot closer to home. Imagine all the people who rushed to file bankruptcy before the new law kicked in.

It's even more scary to me because I sit and think about where the country could end up.

So I'm scared too, and know exactly how you feel.

:hug:

[sandnsea]

16. We were here back in the 80's too

I was resigned to a life of misery back in the late 80's, early 90's too. This is the kind of economy Republicans always bring in. Along with wars and animosity around the world. The only real difference between now and the 80's is that Soviet troops were dying in Afghanistan instead of ours in Iraq. Otherwise, we were causing just as much death and mayhem around the globe as we are now. We were losing jobs overseas. The gap between rich and poor was widening. Alot of people were sure Reagan was going to cause a nuclear holocaust. You can't live in a state of panic and fear. Odds are, we're going to get through this Bush Administration and then we're going to elect somebody with some brains. We're starting to make some headway on the machines and we'll continue to, at least enough to start having some counties to compare. Also remember individual precinct and counties have had shenanigans in them for decades, it's never been considered a national conspiracy to thwart democracy. I'm not saying they aren't capable of it, only that our energy is better spent getting a paper trail on the machines than trying to convince people of a conspiracy to steal elections.

[MH1]

12. Don't be....you probably didn't know about

what went on here at DU. I forgot that you're fairly new when I made my original post.

We are very sensitive here to people who unfairly bash democrats, because many of them have an agenda to bring the Democratic Party down (even if they sometimes don't realize it themselves).

Unfortunately, MCM showed himself to be of that ilk.

And I agree that the 2004 election was - probably - stolen. And a lot of the facts that MCM lists are probably true. But I don't believe that public Democratic Party leaders running around screaming about it will do any good. They are pursuing actions in the courts. They are pursuing changes to the laws that will reduce the capacity for fraud. When they make statements about electoral issues, they speak to specific, proven, quantifiable issues instead of making broad-brush statements that are easily attacked and therefore easily used by the other side to derail the effort.

I believe these are the only actions that will work in this country.

I don't have much faith in the American people on this issue, and I think that is where people like MCM should focus their ire. Where was he on May 19th, 2001, when the OBVIOUSLY stolen election of 2000 was protested in Washington DC - and almost nobody came? Where were all but maybe 3000 - being generous - of the American people? They weren't marching for democracy, that's for damn sure.

But you didn't do anything wrong by posting here! It's just a sore subject with some of us. Sorry! :hug:

[TayTay]

17. There was anger on HOW this was done

not about the idea of election fraud. That is a huge difference. There was a great deal of feeling that certain proponents of election fraud made it seem as if there was only one way to fight this and that if you didn't fight that way, then you had given up and were, in fact, no longer fighting fraud. This is what stung and this is what a lot of the contention and tender feelings are about.

MCM is fighting a political fight to get accountability into the election system. This is a very good and laudable goal. However, he needs allies in order to accomplish anything. It would be nice if he could explain his position in such a way as to garner support, perhaps even Congressional support and unite the various factions that exist in Dem and liberal circles. This was not done. The posts, for better or worse, were divisive instead of unifying.

The current power system in DC is controlled by the people who are benefitting from the election fraud. (I agree that Max Cleland's race was extremely suspicious as well. There are a lot of knowledgeable people who claim that 2002 was a test run for 2004. Sigh!) But, in order to fight this, we need some unity. Having someone claim that they have the only True Way to combat fraud is not helpful. By definition, it will put other people off and it will make it a more of an issue of clashing personalities. We don't need this. We need people who have some skill at building coalitions and bringing disparate voices together on this. This is the heart of the problem with MCM. It's not his allegations, it's his methods. It appears that he is doing everything he can to drive people away from him, people who might be very powerful allies for his cause. This is the sad tragedy of the whole 'he said, he said' event.

MCM's comment cited above are more divisive still. MCM and other lefty proponents of the theory that there was something very rotten in the State of Ohio are not the only ones who suspect this. Sen. Kerry still has two lawsuits in Ohio and specifically mentioned Ken Blackwell as a bad actor in the election. (And Blackwell is getting worse. Heaven help us if he does become Ohio Gov.) That still doesn't mean that MCM is the only actor fighting this and that those who do not specifically join with him are evil co-conspirators in the Republican plot to take over America. Far from it. Again, why is the argument being framed this way. That is truly sad and a waste of activist resources and time. (It doesn't have to be this way. That's the tragedy of it all.)

[ProSense]

18. Good point: Miller's approach is very confrontational! n/t