What was the supposed incident in Iowa during the primaries re: an ad

[LittleClarkie]

that all the rest of the candidates besides Dean were supposedly involved in. Is there any validity to saying that the rest of the candidates ganged up on Dean in Iowa and paid for an ad?

Anybody know the story. I encounter this on occasion from people, and I'd like to be able to counter it with the straight poop.

My standard answer anyway tends to be that if Dean was blasting all the other candidates, and was the frontrunner, then of course the rest of the candidates are going to be gunning for him.

The second part of my standard answer is that if Dean couldn't withstand whatever was thrown at him in the primaries, he wasn't gonna make it against Bush.

The third part, something I've been adding lately, is to say that if Kerry tries again in the primaries and fails, and I start whining about how unfair it all was etc, that people have my permission to pimpslap me back to my senses.

[BlueIris]

1. Huh. That's a new rumor for me.

And even stranger than some of the craaaaaazy things I've heard about the Party's alleged effort to sink Dean's candidacy, including the supposed harrassment of Dean people by Clark supporters and Kerry's staff, and the whole, Al-and-Hillary-conspired-to-screw-Dean thing (which--well, even I recognize that Gore and HRC might have had a preference for candidates other than Dean). FWIW, I have heard nothing of an ad sponsored by everyone else except Dean.

[Mass]

2. There were a couple bad ads against Dean by a 527

including an ad saying he would not make us safe from Osama. Very bad ads.

Some dems strategists were involved in it. However, the closest to Kerry was the campaign manager he had fired several months before the ad.

Tell them to take a hike, because Dean in his own name has been putting nasty ads against other candidates and there were NO link to Kerry with this ad.

[whometense]

3. If I remember correctly,

there were some ties between Gephardt's campaign and the ad, and a whole lot of (completely unproven) allegations that Gephardt and Kerry had conspired to bring down Dean.

As far as I know there was nothing to it, just as there was nothing to the rumor (very hot among Dean conspiracy theorists) that Kerry campaign workers were making nasty phone calls to Iowa voters about Dean.

But there are still plenty of Deaniacs (probably Kos among them) who insist on believing these things. It is inconceivable to them that Dean could have failed without such tactics, IMO.

[ray of light]

5. Everyone

thank you for this information. I too heard rumors but didn't know what was going on.

Also, CNN repeated the meme often that "The democrats seemed to have ganged up on Dean rather than shoot at each other."

Does anyone else remember that? I still watched CNN at the time, not knowing as I learned from the JK blog that CNN was Corporate Not News entertainment.

[Mass]

6. There may be a part of truth in there.

I think that, at the same time many people were jumping on the Dean bandwagon between Nov and end of Dec, some more conservative Dems like From, Breault, and some may have tried to oppose him.

However, if people went back to the news and statements by these same democrats these days, they were clearly not pushing Kerry, on the contrary. I guess if you had to establish a list of people that the establishment democrats did not want, even accepting that Dean was the first one, you would have to put Kerry second.

The meme that people in IA and NH voted for electability and not because they liked Kerry was created by pundits after Iowa to justify that they were wrong. Statistics do not support that (except if you twist them to make them say that).

[karynnj]

11. That was the media "theme" in covering some of the debate

It actually made sense because Dean was pulling significantly ahead. I also think people (I can remember, Sandnsea and Dr Ron) have talked about how Dean purposely distorted his record. He had also mischaracterized others. Because his campaign was doing this they all were hitting Dean when they could to correct their own records and to hold Dean to his. Kerry more than anyone else talked about his own record and attacked Bush, not Dean.

I remember Edwards being rightously indignant about Dean's stupid " I want the votes of those with confederate flags on their pickup trucks", Al Sharpton hitting Dean for having no African Americans in his office as Governor of (one of the whitest states in the union), Gephardt and Dean fought over Medicare.

But Dean also said Kerry accomplished little in his years Congress (which Kerry answered beautifully saying Dean didn't understand how things worked and how there were many significant small pieces of legislation added to bills that he had authored and had gotten added to big bills. The answer made sense and rang true. But until obsessively following things this year, I didn't know how completely true this was. He tried to put both Kerry and Gephardt to his right things like Welfare and Medicare by playing with votes. He also set up the whole lie the Republicans are still using on the war.

Are the debates archived anywhere? They would answer this and especially if accompanied by a fact check would whether it was done in an unfair way. Dean freaked out in one debate becoming pretty angry - I also don't think Kerry's saying Dean had no fp experience and that this is the wrong time for that was unfair Dean said Kerry, Edwards and Gephardt had no executive experience. Both true statements.

In writing this, it brings back enough Dean memories to realize his followers are blind. Looking at the the type of jabs, that brought on unwarranted anger in the primaries, Dean would have been absolutely destroyed in a general election. I seriously don't see how he would even have handled it.

Oh, another of their "connections" on the ads was that former Senator Torrecelli was one of the people who raised funds for Kerry and he also has behind some of the funding on the ad. My former Senator is probably unethical. I have no problem believing that he could do both of these things without telling the Kerry campaign of the 527. (Consider he was unethical enough that NEW JERSEY pushed him off the ticket. ) I have no idea how close his relationship to Kerry was.

[Mass]

12. All this is normal election stuff - I am not sure it is worth coming back

to that once again.

A lot of things have been said in all directions. That is the game of politics. We are probably better off forgetting about that and hope other do as well. Past is past. We should focus on the future.

Among the stupidities of the campaign was also Edwards campaigning exclusively about the fact that his parents were poor (a stretch of truth) and that he was the only one in this case (which was a blatant lie). I am sure we can find things in the Kerry campaign as well.


I think the main subject that should be discarded is that Kerry was the establisment candidate. This is totally ludicrous and many people are still stuck on that, whoever they supported during the primaries.

[whometense]

14. I totally agree with

that. Kerry was never the "establishment candidate". Maybe that took hold partly because he was the frontrunner way way early (before his surgery).

[whometense]

13. Good post.

I believe there's a massive archive somewhere (C-Span?? I'll go look) where all the debates reside in perpetuity.

One small thing - technically, since Kerry was Lt. Governor of Massachusetts he did have some executive experience. Not a huge amount, but he did have some.

[karynnj]

21. and his cookie company

Joking aside that was such an unexpected thing to read about him that I wish they would have found a way to get the story out. The idea that they used their mom's recipes and named it after them was so all-American nice guy. There have been so many "catnip" stories that show a very personable man that I only heard since Nov 04.

[jenndar]

17. There are a bunch of

primary debate transcripts online. I googled for them a couple weeks ago and didn't find all of them, but I know both NH and NC are floating around.

[blm]

20. In fairness, many of his supporters don't push blindly. Many came around

quickly to support the overall Dem efforts, and have added much to the cohesiveness we are all seeking.

Some have not and aren't serving Dean and the DNC very well when they won't back up Dems trying to show unity where they can.

The same can be said of any group of supporters who represent a tiny minority view within any group.

[blm]

19. The media had a gameplan against ALL the Dems. They went to gut Kerry's

campaign first, then Edwards and Clark, and when they thought they had them knocked out they finally went after Dean to hurt him as the expected nominee at that point.

Kerry survived because he turned it around with an enormous personal effort to reach Iowa voters. It happened to coincide with some of the bad moments for Dean, and also that Kerry performed more consistently in the Iowa debates than Dean did.

Anyone who wants to blame one thing for what happened in Iowa should try blaming the media that distorted everyone, and especially distorted the ground support in Iowa for all the candidates.

[TayTay]

4. Go hear this straight from the horses' mouth

You can hear David Jones of Americans for Jobs, Healthcare and Progressive Values at C-Span discuss how he put those 527 ads against Howard Dean together.

Go to C-Span.

In the video search field, enter 'David Jones'

The video that comes up is about 527's. David Jones', short, pithy bit on what he did in Dec 2003 is about 2:57 into the program.

Enjoy. This guy wrote, funded and produced the ads. This is what happened. Also, there is a Q&A question for Jones at about 3:20, listen to that as well.

Yeah, they took Dean out. It's an election, that's what people do. This is not about sweetness and light, it was about finding Dean's vulnerabilities, exposing them and getting the voters to change their minds. That's what campaigns do.

[ray of light]

7. And that is exactly

why the trolls are out early with the anti-kerry inflamatory namecalling.

[TayTay]

8. Yup. A lot of the Deanaics hate politics

They found a champion who spoke to them in 2003 and they really and truly wanted him to win. I get that. But he had to go through a political process in order to win. When Gov. Dean became the media front-runner he was exposed to a whole new level of media scrutiny. Some of this is fair, some of it is unfair and that's politics. (I don't get why supposedly intelligent people find this fact so hard to grasp.)

Gov. Dean had opposition for the nomination. Those people also really and truly wanted to win. And they were better at it than he was. Gov Dean has obviously accepted this. The Deaniacs have never accepted this. They think that Dean was so good that only treachery and betrayal could have brought him down. No, the long political season combined with better strategists on the other side and some fatal flaws in Dean's character as a politician brought Dean down. These folks need to accept this and move on.

There are a lot of people in DU who talk tough but then turn into whiny babies when tough tactics are employed against their favorites. You can't have it both ways. Either they want a fighting Democratic Party that kicks ass and takes no prisoners or they want a polite debating society that is focused on 'fairnes and being nice.' Campaigns are not nice, they are about winning and about taking the opposition out. I should think that supposedly smart people would understand that.

[ProSense]

15. Totally agree.

They love to discuss how much they hate politics. Which is probably why they will never understand why Dean bid for the presidency failed.

[jenndar]

18. OMG

Thank you for bringing this up.

I JUST had this conversation with somebody last night.

[madfloridian]

87. This is a sad thread.

I am proud of being brought into the party because of Howard Dean. I am still a Deaniac, and I intend to remain one. It is something that many of us wear as a badge of honor.

Do you know why? Let me share a little. Many of us were Democrats, taking part in the party locally....but not really paying attention. In 2003 about March, a lot of us began to realize our own party was selling us out on so many issues. We realized they were not standing with the people of America.

I am especially proud when I am called politically naive, which is really what this whole thread was about. You see, Tay Tay, the fact that I came into the campaign with a certain degree of naivete' was the best thing that could have happened.

You see, naivete' gives one a clearer look at the whole dirty scene of politics. Because I was naive, I am no longer. I am tired, very tired, of being talked about as though I were not as important, not as good a Democrat because my husband and I and our friends became part of a very special campaign.

Yes, it was all politics. Everybody does it. In fact, I think this "only politics" crap is why our guys and the innocent Iraqis are dying. It was "only politics". But they are dead. And more are dying every day.

I have learned a whole lot since early 2003. Lots of us have. And we plan on continuing to point out things that have been swept under rugs for far too often.

We gave a large amount to the Kerry campaign, we worked hard locally for him. What it has done for us is zilch. We are still looked down upon by all you guys here who are so very politically knowledgable and correct. When you stop making fun of us there might be healing. And then again it might be too late.

I have not been critical of Kerry, but as I said in another post yesterday....look where the hell that got me. Who knows now.

[blm]

9. What they don't factor is that Kerry was the one who denounced the ad.

the peripheral characters involved were working more closely with union guys loyal to Gephardt.

But, those who accuse Kerry have no problem that Dean campaign marched with signs that read Kerry=Bush.

Some in Dean's campaign team played loose and lied their asses off about Kerry at every turn, like accusing him of voting for Bush's taxcuts. Or that he was prowar and Dean was antiwar when their actual positions were never that far apart.

Dean was as ill-served by his campaign as Kerry was by some of his team.

[TayTay]

10. Those ads came out at the right time.

Dean had coasted on a wave of good press through the summer and early fall of '03. Then, as the actual caucuses and primaries approached, voters started to take a good long look at Dean to see if he was what he said he was. Dean always had vulnerabilities and he was a newbie on the national stage. (Newbies make mistakes.)

The ads that came out exploited what was already there. Dean was the one who made the impolitic remarks about the country not being safer after Saddam Hussein was caught. (Probably true, but still a dumb political thing to say at the time.) The ads were perfectly timed to take advantage of the 'buyer's remorse' that was already setting in among the electorate.

As Others in this group have pointed out, Sen. Kerry was never that badly positioned in Iowa or NH as the polls would have led you to believe. Dean, IMHO, adied his own implosion. Kerry was in a great position to take advantage of that. It's not Kerry's fault that Dean imploded, it's Deans.

[karynnj]

16. What I'm surprised at is that they have never claimed that the

Rassman reunion (in it's timing) was a set up. From afar, that day fixed forever my alliegence and I assume others. It got enormous coverage because it was perfect TV. Also, Kerry's natural reserve (which often was used against him) made him fit the "Ah, shucks" modest hero of movies. He was so clearly moved to see the guy and his softly spoken comment that "anyone would have done it" was perfect.

This happenning a few weeks before the primary had to have an effect. The fact that it was shown in parallel with Dean yelling at a senoir citizen should have shifted undecided voters. (The Clark people talking about Clark not getting coverage like Kerry are ignoring that it was media and the Clintons who pushed him.)

[TayTay]

44. You can see the ads on C-Span and hear from David Jones

Jones appeared at a C-Span covered forum that was put on by the Annenburg Center last Dec.

It was very illuminating. (And short. Be sure and listen to the Q&A I mentioned above.)

It really was a drive-by shooting. But Dean was already wounded and that's why the ads worked.

[fedupinBushcountry]

22. The story in my view as an early Kerry blogger

First, the ads that came out against Dean were a 527 I can't remember the group, but from that evolved that Gephardt and Kerry were behind it. All you hear from certain Dean supporters is that it was Kerry and Gephardt out to destroy Dean. Let me say this once NOT TRUE. Now as far as Gephardt is involved I really don't know.

Dean lost in Iowa for a couple of reasons and it wasn't the scream, his numbers were down before that. Him and Gephardt were fighting it out with negative TV ads against each other, Iowa didn't like that at all.Dean ran a terrible campaign in Iowa, he had to many young supporters, not knowing what they were doing and pushing Dean in a way that Iowans did not like. His campaign office was in total disarray, no organization what so ever. The money was going but they didn't keep account of it. I remember they still owed for a delivery after the primary and the Deli had to keep begging for the money, I never found out when and if the Deli got paid.One last final mistake Dean made was on the day before the primaries he decided to do a photo-op with Carter instead of staying in Iowa reaching out for votes.

As all this was going on Kerry and Edwards were on the ground talking to people, I remember JK did a 24 hour non-stop bus tour, he even visited with Iowans in the middle of the night.Also since I don't know what kind of ads Edwards was running I do know Kerry's ads were great, some were all about Bush (Mission Accomplished ad) and yes Kerry was the first to use that photo-op of Bush. Then he had regular citizens saying why they were going to vote for JK. I loved the ads.

Does anyone remember the rally where Dean showed up driving right into a rally on a bus. I thought to myself what the hell is he trying to prove,IMO his rock star days crumbled when he made it more about him and not about the voters.

Certain supporters of his will just never get over it, and they continue to blame instead of admitting their guy made some mistakes during his campaign, for them Dean could do no wrong, they put him on a pedestal, and the thing is they got on that pedestal with him, and will not get off. For them it is easier to blame someone else for their guys loss instead of facing reality and saying we tried our best, and in the end our best wasn't good enough, but I don't think that day will ever come for some, for it will hurt their own inner ego to much.

I really thought that it would end once Dean gave his total support to Kerry, and then once again when he became the DNC Chairman (that was the pedestal working again)but for some it will never end. To me it is best to not even answer those who put out that primary rhetoric, it is so old and it still would not change the outcome. They need to get over it and quit spreading their lies throughout the blogosphere.

Just my 2 cents.

[emulatorloo]

23. a link from "counterpunch" for you re OSAMA ad, and DU thread re Kerry

denouncing.

http://www.counterpunch.org/lewis03062004.html

will give you the full conspiracy theory from the conspiracy perspective.

commondreams link on financing of ad - torecelli and unions

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0211-08.htm

Kerry denounced this ad BTW - DU thread here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=315016

-------------

[karynnj]

24. The Counterpunch link is so nasty

The facts in their own article don't even lead you to Kerry - People who funded the ad also gave 60,000 to Kerry and 410,000 to Gepheardt. This doesn't mean Gepheardt did either.

What's weird is following their Kerry links they have the pizza story with other comments - Kerry wanting them to fly a plane that seemed to have problems because he would be late to a press conference (cause we all know how he's a fanatic about not being late and is careless about his safety and that of others) and he bragged that someone said he was one of the pilots the person had ever seen (so not Kerry it's funny) Did he kill their dogs too? The level of hatred is beyond belief. There's also a link to buy a book about Kerry's double life - as if he didn't do enough in his public life.

[Mass]

25. Here is the title of the article written by Lewis

Note that the addition of Kerry's name in the title is NOT the fact of Charles Lewis (I was kind of surprised ) but of counterpunch.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0306-04.htm

Political Mugging In America
Anatomy of an "Independent" Smear Campaign
by Charles Lewis

[emulatorloo]

28. counterpunch annoys the hell out of me

just so you know. . .real attack-from-the-left-nonsense a lot of the time.

[karynnj]

35. I unfortunately saw that just clicking from Kerry link to Kerry link

very unsavory and disgusting - my computer refuses to go back there - it was a scary dark evil place. I had seen one Cockburn piece which was a review of the Tour of Duty book. He didn't read the same book I did. He somehow came to the conclusion that Kerry didn't have any remotse about people shot in the cross fire and that he argued with his superiors just to get helicopter backup to kill more Vietnamese.

It takes a very warped mind to reach that conclusion from the book.

[Debi]

26. They certainly were working together

THE "UNION" PRIMARY
Latest skirmish -- at least in the national press -- in a presidential campaign that hasn't seen a single ballot case yet, (and won't for another 80-85 days) is the race for endorsements: congressional, gubernatorial, political, and union.

For the last 10 days, the national press has portrayed this Thursday's meeting of the governing board of the Service Emloyees International Union (SEIU) -- the largest in the AFL-CIO with 1.6 million members -- as the next most important moment in the race for labor support. While all press indications are that Dean has significant SEIU support, today's Newsday indicates that other candidates are working together to deny Dean this endorsement.

"WASHINGTON -- Presidential rivals John Edwards, Dick Gephardt and John Kerry have found a common foe to unite them: Howard Dean. In a rare alliance, the three campaigns are working to deny the fellow Democratic candidate an endorsement from the Service Employees International Union, the largest in the AFL-CIO with 1.6 million members.
"It's Dean or no one," said SEIU spokeswoman Sara Howard.

"That announcement prompted top aides to Edwards, Gephardt and Kerry to convene a conference call during which they discussed whether Dean's endorsement could be blocked."

http://capecodworks.typepad.com/home/2003/11/04/

[jenndar]

27. That doesn't link to a full article.

Do you perhaps have another link?

[Debi]

29. Sorry, it's a 2003 link as it is

:shrug: sorry

Many of the links from 2003-4 are gone like the "Howard Dean is going to privatize Social Security" web site linked from Gephardt's campaign site and "Howard's House of Waffles" web site linked from the Kerry campaign site.

I'm not talented enough to pull the old stuff up - I just googled Kerry, Edwards, Gephardt conference call and got that link because I remember the story when it came out.

[fedupinBushcountry]

33. The house of waffles

was done by a du'er who also posted occasionally on the Kerry blog, had nothing to do with the campaign. My God this is so petty

[jenndar]

34. Good to know.

Thanks, I figured it was something like that.

[Debi]

37. But it was linked on the campaign web site

no matter who created it - the Kerry Campaign condoned it by linking it on their web site.

Why is it petty? It's just politics - someone came up with a good anti-Dean gimmick. Why pretend that Kerry didn't use it? The Kerry staff attended Dean events and handed out frozen waffles, they loved it.

[jenndar]

39. Um...

do you have any evidence of that? That it was on the campaign website? I don't recall that at all.

[Debi]

55. You know I can't pull it up now, which is why you're asking me to

If you want to believe that I dreamed it up just to try an make a point, go ahead. And no, I didn't keep any of the frozen waffles the Kerry staff handed to me outside events either.

[jenndar]

57. Actually, that's not why I'm asking.

I'm not assuming you're lying, but I'm also not going to assume you're telling the truth. We just can't have a debate on something you say you saw that I don't remember seeing. Sorry.

[Debi]

58. Why would you have seen it?

You live in California - I live in Iowa. Unless you were in Iowa in November - December 2003 you wouldn't have seen anything that the campaigns were doing here. Maybe you got on to the Kerry site in the winter of 2003 and maybe you didn't, maybe you don't remember what you saw on the Kerry site. Seems several others who have posted here remember the Waffle link. But since I can't give you the link I'm not telling the truth. That's nice.

[jenndar]

59. I said in my last post I didn't assume you were lying.

I just said I'm not going to debate about stuff there's no record for. It doesn't mean it didn't happen - it means it's not something I have the resources to talk about. I am curious about all the things you mentioned and was hoping to find more info to that end, and you don't have info. I'm okay with that, but it doesn't seem like you are. Please don't take the fact that I'm not persuaded personally.

[Debi]

61. Okay, if you didn't see it and I can't find a link it can't be discussed

Silly, because others have agreed that the link did exist and the waffles comments were made. But we don't have to discuss it since you don't want to.

[jenndar]

63. I didn't say those comments didn't exist.

And yes, you posted a link, and thank you for that. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, so I'm back where I started. I'm not saying it's your fault.

I don't know what else you want me to say about this. Sorry.

[Debi]

69. Nothing, I guess.

Just seems silly to say that since I can't take you back two years and physically show you the site that you refuse to discuss it.

I really need to get away from this thread, I feel like I'm in some weird twilight zone (I thought Dean supporters were supposed to have the market on conspiracy theories and spies).

[TayTay]

45. To an extent, that's true.

There are no boy scouts in presidential politics. They simply don't last. The process is excrucitating and it tends to weed out the faint of heart.

I never thought the Osama ad was that bad. (You can see it at the C-Span link I provided above.) It merely stated that Osama was the threat to the nation and was Howard Dean up to facing him. (Honestly, I've seen worse. It didn't say that Dean had capitulated to OBL, it posed the question that is proper for a Presidential cnadidate: Can he handle the job?)

You know, in a way, that race may have turned on the final weekend on a video put out by Osama bin Laden. That may have decided the friggin race. It might have behooved Democrats to have really faced that instead of pretending to be all nice and kissy-face all the time. Gawd, it's politics not a friggin tea party. You are supposed to hit people with hard ads that make them respond to difficult issues of the day. I think the complaints are invalid and the ad was fair. I would have run it in a heartbeat.

[karynnj]

46. The Dean campaign attacked the others as well

Dean leveded some of the hardest accusations against the others. He questioned Gephardt's record on things like medicare where he was a life long suporter. He accused Kerry of accomplishing little in the Senate. His team started the flip flop nonsense.

and you whine about Kerry's team (likely without asking him - because I doubt that's a real high level decision) bringing frozen waffles???

[Debi]

56. I wasn't whining - It was funny actually n/t

[LittleClarkie]

Yes, both sides had their things. Waffles on one, flip flops on the other

And yes, it's all politics.

But some folks think there was a 527 connection that has been denied by Kerry, one that was linked to an Osama bin Laden ad against Dean.

That is all I was concerned about when I asked the original question. All else is politics. Which was my point really. Some folks act like this was their first campaign, as if they'd never seen political gimmicks.

Mostly I don't like primary era divisiveness. But if folks are going to come at me about this ad I asked about, I'd like to know what happened.

I'm not saying people didn't work together against one candidate or another. But to accuse Kerry of something shady and secret is another kettle of fish entirely. That's what I was concerned about.

[karynnj]

50. So it was good you asked,

There seems nothing either shady or secret in anything Debi writes. That she falls back to the house of waffles which I've never seen - but I suspect it was likely just a clever unoffical campaign piece - is a sign that there was nothing that Kerry should be ashamed of. (Was it a house where clicking at different points exposed Dean Waffles?) If so, it'spretty mild.

[LittleClarkie]

51. Funny and sad: If Dean woulda made it, there would have been freepers

dressed as waffles instead of flipflops.

No less pathetic, mind you. But they did seem to take their cue in the campaign from what we'd said about each other.

[fedupinBushcountry]

30. Eavesdropping on the Kerry forum

you just can't stand it can you. That is just such hogwash. It was never proven and you know it.

GET OVER IT

[karynnj]

31. well , this is the only interesting candidate forumn on DU

So welcome. I guess. Even if true - this is nothing but standard polics. Unless they paid off the union or something, what'a the story? Did they each ask their supporters to lobby for no endorsement leaving Dean below 50%?

[Debi]

36. I'm not sure what they tried to do - it didn't work

and Dean got the endorsement. Not that THAT mattered. After Dean's dismal Iowa performance (and equally dismal New Hampshire performance) They got restless and publically asked him to leave the race.

I agree that what happened was standared politics - except that 527s were new in 2003 and some campaigns just knew how to manipulate them better than others.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I really am sorry for posting in this forum, like I stated in my other post this was linked form P-GD and I just responded before looking where it came from. Otherwise I would have just ignored it.

[karynnj]

48. I'm sorry but I don't see the problem here.

You don't know what they did, but there was a report that they talked to each other and all hoped Dean wouldn't get the endorsement - which he got.

As you saw Kerry denounced the ad and he was never in favor of 527s. the closest connection you have is that people who funded it also gave over 400,000 to Gephardt and $60,000 to Kerry and some had given Dean money.

I was undecided between Dean and Kerry in that time frame - I chose Kerry. I was in NJ, so obviously there were no ads, no phone calls, no dirty tricks. Why did I chose?

1) Upon research I liked Dean less than I did when I knew only a pretty small amount about him. I didn't like that he was trying to appear to be things he wasn't. Kerry on the other hand, impressed me as I saw CSPAN events of him talking to people, I read his book (Call to Service) and Tour of Duty). I became very impressed.
2) The debates, Kerry seemed like he didn't belong with the others - he was that much better. He spoke easily and gave great answers. Dean, nervous with everyone wanting him to fail, often gave less than adequate answers. The pin cushion comment really bothered me - because I had felt that the primaries if anything were less nasty than usual.
3) The first 2 were logical, but there was also the emotional. The Rassman/Kerry reunion - not just that he was a hero, not just the fact that it was emotional, but the modesty Kerry had in talking about it.

[WildEyedLiberal]

73. Wait a goddamn minute!

DU allows threads in GDP to link to US - but WE can't link to GD or GDP??

What kind of bullshit is THAT?

[Debi]

32. Actually someone posted the link in GD-P

I didn't even realize it was in the "only Kerry supporters" forum.

Otherwise I would not have come over here and 'cried in my tea cup'.

My apologies - please continue with your Dean bashing....:eyes:

[fedupinBushcountry]

38. Oh really

well isn't that interesting. By the way we weren't bashing we were discussing. That is something that bashers don't comprehend. I am not calling you one either but whoever linked to this forum should be alerted it is against the rules.

[Debi]

54. Thanks for your response - I'll leave now n/t

[fedupinBushcountry]

62. Do you move

everyday. Funny yesterday you were living in N.C. when I checked your profile. So which is it?

[Mass]

65. Good catch -

[fedupinBushcountry]

66. Thank You

I noticed it yesterday, but didn't say anything because I thought maybe she volunteered in Iowa. But when she came back today and I saw her post I said what and sure enough, it was changed.

You know on the subject of why she even came here, is really bugging me. I alerted on the poster that linked to this forum and said I thought that it was against the rules. Well I guess not, so are we allowed to link again to certain topics as I see it is alright for anyone else.

[Debi]

71. All you've done is proven that you can't remember a person's profile

I've been living in Iowa for almost 20 years. You know, I can actually prove that by past news paper articles that quote me and my husband during the caucuses. Would you like me to PM them to you?

[fedupinBushcountry]

74. Why are you here

Are you spying on the Kerry forum. No, I will not PM you I know what I saw.

Please leave this forum it is for Kerry suppoerters and you are abusing it.

[Debi]

78. YOU keep responding to my posts

And now I'm defending myself because you are calling me a liar. go to the Iowa Forum and see how many posts I've posted, then go to the NC Forum and see how many I've posted. See who I've endorsed in the Iowa gubernatorial primary, who I'm supporting in Iowa's First Congressional District. Why, if I live in NC, would I post about those things? I must have gotten under your skin so you'd rather just call me a liar than discuss anything. Which, if you would have just ignored my polite response to your post we would not be having this exchange now.

If this is a Kerry supporter forum, I voted for Kerry in November of 2004 and so am as much a supporter as you.


Thank goodness there are some polite people in this forum.

[ProSense]

80. Excuse me!

You said you stumble in here by accident. This is a place for constructive discussion, even the ones that make us laugh or take our minds off our frustrations. You are being disruptive. When are you going to be polite and comply with post #54?

[fedupinBushcountry]

81. No

you don't have any right in this forum. Do you read the rules. I am putting you on ignore. There wouldn't even be this discussion if you didn't butt in due to another poster who out od dpite linked to this forum.

ARE YOU A KERRY SUPPORTER NOW?

Because if you are not which by your post you aren't, NO you do not belong here. READ THE RULES.

EOM

[Debi]

70. You and I have posted back and forth to each other in the past

and I have had the same avatar and the same profile, look back at your old posts.

Why presume I'm lying?

[Mass]

72. I just changed my profile - my old posts have been affected as well.

So I could not know.

I checked your profile as well to see if you were from IA when you posted yesterday and it showed NC. It may have been a temporary problem with DU, but I saw the same thing.

This said, I have no particular beef with you.

[Debi]

75. Please head to the Iowa Forum, then

and then go to the NC Forum.

Maybe that will help.

My gosh, this is just ridiculous, why would I lie about what state I live in?

[Mass]

76. That may have been a glitch in DU. I dont know.

and I dont really care where you live.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Debi]

67. What are you talking about? I have lived in Iowa since 1986

search my posts going back to when I first joined, you'll see that I've always stated I live in Iowa. Are you certain it was my profile you checked?

[incapsulated]

60. LOL

No. The Kerry forum doesn't "bash" they "discuss". In a non-private, fully readable forum where others can't respond without fear that their post will be deleted. I doubt very much you people would post this crap "outside":

"In writing this, it brings back enough Dean memories to realize his followers are blind."

"Yup. A lot of the Deanaics hate politics."

"The Deaniacs have never accepted this. They think that Dean was so good that only treachery and betrayal could have brought him down. No, the long political season combined with better strategists on the other side and some fatal flaws in Dean's character as a politician brought Dean down. These folks need to accept this and move on."

"They love to discuss how much they hate politics. Which is probably why they will never understand why Dean bid for the presidency failed."

"The Clark people talking about Clark not getting coverage like Kerry are ignoring that it was media and the Clintons who pushed him."

"Certain supporters of his will just never get over it, and they continue to blame instead of admitting their guy made some mistakes during his campaign, for them Dean could do no wrong, they put him on a pedestal, and the thing is they got on that pedestal with him, and will not get off. For them it is easier to blame someone else for their guys loss instead of facing reality and saying we tried our best, and in the end our best wasn't good enough, but I don't think that day will ever come for some, for it will hurt their own inner ego to much."

"They need to get over it and quit spreading their lies throughout the blogosphere."

Etc, Etc, Etc.

But of course, the Kerry supporters are all innocent victims of all the rest of us horrible DU'ers.

The hypocrisy is ironic, especially when the "rules" are brought into the "discussion". How, I wonder, does any of this fit in with this group's "mission statement"? I don't see ANY of the other groups doing this sort of thing. But you are above all that, aren't you?

Have a Happy Thanksgiving. :hi:

[Mass]

64. LOL, as you say

Sure, we could post it in GDP or GD as everybody does. This would make the dialogue even more civil and useful that it is.

Just in case you did not notice, there is a reason why many Kerry supporters do not post in GD and GDP. The systematic aggression by a few members of everything he does whether it is good or not. They could not care less. (not that I said a few). We could start and jump on everything that moves as they do. Interesting conversation that would be.

We also could, as a few members I know, post positively on GDP (with their own agenda) and spread crap on blogs with less traffic. This is even more hypocrit than what you are pointing at.

Or we could leave, which I perfectly understand is the goal of a few people who seem to post on DU only when Kerry does something positive.

I could not care less one way or another.

Have a happy thanksgiving.

[incapsulated]

68. If you posted this in the GDP

You would have to answer for it, like those "Kerry bashers" have to answer to you when they have something not very nice to say.

If you have something to say about Dean supporters or Clarkies, take it outside where we can all "discuss". Hiding in here, posting this crap, knowing the people you are insulting can read it but can't respond, is far worse than those you accuse of "bashing" your guy. At least they are only attacking a politician, not their fellow DU'ers. These posts would be deleted if you posted them in the forums and I don't understand why they aren't here. Are the rules different for you? I don't give a shit what people say in private, this is about what is posted on DU.

Forget this. It will probably be deleted anyway.

[WildEyedLiberal]

77. Give me a fucking break

We've been called agent provocateurs, Kool aid drinkers, Kerrybots, and more in GD. GD is full of dishonest shit-slingers who have an agenda, which suffice to say is not positive instructive discourse. So LittleClarkie posts a perfectly legitimate question in here - why? Maybe because she wanted a DISCUSSION instead of having to fend off ad hominem attacks from bitter Dean supporters.

Some of us here like Dean; others do not. Our observations about the behavior of Deaniacs in Iowa and elsewhere are our own. It certainly rings hollow for you to whine about the mean ol' Kerry supporters when we have been called "Nazi brownshirts" by other DUers. :nopity:

By the way - this was an honest discussion with varying views of Dean before you and that Deanbot came and crashed in. You post about us in GD and follow us in here to argue, and wonder why we don't feel welcome posting in GD :eyes:

[incapsulated]

84. Cry me a river

You think Kerry is the only Democrat that has been bashed on DU? You think Kerry supporters have been given shit, try being a Clarkie, we were called everything and worse. If it is too heavy for you on DU, get your own forum and bitch. But using DU Groups to post crap about others on this site, that is what you are defending? Is that the "discussion"? This is a PUBLIC SITE, the fact that I can read and post here is proof of that.

Post your crap where people can respond, is all I ask. Dissing other DU'ers in the safety of your little playpen while whining about how bad you are treated at the same time... there is a word for that. Guess.

I never post shit about Kerry, thank you very much. Stop posting shit about other people and their candidates where it's safe to do so without argument and then complain when people at least have the guts to argue it in public, with full dissent allowed from YOU.

[ProSense]

86. Do something constructive

We are allowed to discuss pros and cons. If you want to challenge our opinions with facts, that's fine. You have no right to demand our silence on any issue.

If you don't want to join our discussion, there is a Clark Group.

[fedupinBushcountry]

82. Does it hurt

that bad. That you take things out of context to make yourself feel better.

Buddy, you don't even know what the word BASH means, we do.

We are the Kerry group, we don't have the luxury of supporting our guy in GD or GDP, WHY? Because we are attacked, hell some don't even want a Kerry thread at all posted anywhere. I wonder why? Talk about not being able to take a little criticism, huh, sound familiar.

So long, have a good Thanksgiving and stay out of our discussions. Oh by the way we have over 50,000 post, we use this forum the correct way, to discuss whatever has to do with JOHN KERRY.

[karynnj]

83. I actually don't see any of the other groups discussing much of anything

The comment of mine that is here is consistent with what I've said elsewhwere -

The Clark people talking about Clark not getting coverage like Kerry are ignoring that it was media and the Clintons who pushed him."

It is undemiable that when Clark first came out there was a burst of the most positive press I've seen and he was supported by Clinton people. This is not bashing.

[LittleClarkie]

41. What Dean bashing exactly?

I was just clarify something I did not get a chance to witness first hand in the primaries, so that if somebody brought it up again to me as some have, I'd have an idea of what was supposed to have happened.

I certainly wasn't bashing Dean. I don't bash Dean. I have never bashed Dean. He is my chairman. That would be silly.

[Debi]

53. Please check your PM, thanks n/t

[LittleClarkie]

40. Oh, I don't doubt it, but that wasn't the question

The question was whether or not some shady 512 group was a clandestine working together to sink Dean with some ugly Osama ads. That is the link that hasn't been proven.

That they worked together to "get" the frontrunner is plain politics. In 2007 the field will work together to "get" Hillary.

It's a race and a fight. Did you expect the rest of the field to just collapse in awe of Gov. Dean's obvious qualifications to be president?

Did you expect Bush was going to treat Dean with loving kindness either?

Like I said, if Kerry doesn't make it, and I start whining about how he was ganged up on and such, somebody will need to slap some sense into me. Because, hello and welcome to the wonderful world of politics. And if you can't make it out of the primaries, you have no business in the general.

However, hiding involvement in an ad is a different matter. It appears that the answer was no.

[karynnj]

47. Totally correct - that's where the AB (x) comes from

It was always primary terminology and it was used most when there was a candidate getting more of the vote than any one else - but whom the majority didn't want. It wasn't spoken this year because Dean imploded so there was no ABD movement ever spoken about. Kerry quickly became a very big favorite and there was no coalition where the members all preferred any to Kerry.

[blm]

42. I'm glad you're here. i think every one of good stead should work together

because the party needs all our help.

I am serious about this even though some people think it's just feelgood talk. I'm way more serious even when I do sound corny.

i just think the party is best served when FACTS are relied upon over feelings, even though feelings are what drove us here in the first place.

There is alot of misinformation that has been proffered and none of it helps common goals.

[LittleClarkie]

43. Do you think it was wrong of me to ask the question, blm

Honestly, it wasn't about folks here, but elsewhere that I've run into and felt at a disadvantage with, because I don't know what happened.

[karynnj]

49. No it was not wrong

I also have no problem with Debi coming - in fact it explains some of her cryptic comments at other times where she implied that Kerry was unethical. I see nothing out of the ordinary with the waffles - and I seriously doubt it was the Senator's decision.

With the ad - the guilt by association is pretty weak. This is a link with the strength of Bush and the SBVT funders. They sound like they were a group that mostly backed Gephardt and likely decided they were also ABD. I also wonder when Torecelli raised money for Kerry. Torecelli was leading the effort on Senate races in 2002 when Kerry ran. Torecelli was running too but was replace by Lautenberg because of Torecelli's ethic charges (which he has never been tried on to ny knowledge). I doubt Torecelli was raising money in 2003.

[blm]

52. No. You didn't know and wanted to know what happened. That's never wrong.

,

[politicasista]

85. This is a nasty flamewar....

No fault of you all:)

[Moderator]

88. Locking per DU guidelines.

It's time to lock this.

Thanks.


DU Moderator