Did we ever decide on anything with that strategy session awhile back?

[Goldeneye]

I was just in that thread about Kerry's e-mail and it is pretty nasty. There has to be a better way than this. Can we just pull back for a bit and think of some way to handle these threads? These guys are democrats. (Well...most of them are democrats.) They are on our side, but for one reason or another do not like Kerry, or just disagree with Kerry's plan. That's really not so bad. We can't make everyone like him or agree with him and that's not really our job anyway. I'm not really sure what our job as Kerry supporters is. I guess correcting factual errors about him is a big part of it. What else do we as a group need to do? Can we put together some kind of mission statement? And maybe some kind of protocol for handling these threads? We just aren't accomplishing anything the way things are.

I don't know if it's justified or not, but some of the non-Kerry fans keep suggesting that they feel persecuted by Kerry supporters. I suspect this is because when they whine about Kerry, 10 of us will respond. We do tend to gang up on them, but honestly, they go into the threads looking for fights. I'm not sure if either side is being fair. Anyone with input...jump in.

The reason for this thread: I'm just tired of this crap. Today is the one year anniversary of the election. I'm not happy in any way with what's happening in this country. I'm confused how DUers can whine about our leaders not being unified, when we aren't unified either. I'm disgusted that I have to look at bush for 3 more freaking years, and I'm worried about how messed up everything has gotten. Can we at least organize ourselves?

I seriously love this group. It is the best thing on DU. You guys are like an oasis of sanity. And I don't even know what to say about Kerry. If he's half as good as he seems to be then he is an amazing person and could be a wonderful president. A group this good, dedicated to a person who is that good, should be organized. So how do we organize and what do we do when we are organized? Or maybe I'm just rambling on and you guys don't mind things the way they are...either way...input is appreciated.

[JI7]

1. they aren't important

and don't blame yourself or Kerry supporters for these fools feeling persecuted. the fact they feel that way shows they want to be free to take a crap in the Kerry threads without anyone calling them out on it.

i was here during the primary campaign. and most of these people really aren't on our side and are not truly Democrats.

don't let them get to you.

i don't think we need or organize or anything in regards to threads about Kerry on DU. the problem is not really in our hands, but i think most Kerry supporters handle it well.

[sandnsea]

2. I've got a grassroots strategy

You know what. I was just in that thread, I didn't realize it had gone down the toilet quite so badly. I read a post, I guess I can't say names. Anyway, what struck me as I was responding (then stopped) is that WE are fighting because our leaders refuse to come together and support each other.

Think about it. Dean won't admit he and Kerry weren't far apart on opposing the invasion, the resolution, etc. Clark won't admit that he proposed a plan that included a threat of force in 2002. Feingold won't support Kerry's Iraq plan, last I knew anyway. Hillary is doing god knows what. It's not OUR fault there's no unity. It's our goddamned leaders' fault.

Strategy? WE tell these leaders WE want THEM to come clean on Iraq, past and future. No more shell games? No more rhetoric?

Damn skippy. Enough is enough, all the way around.

Now how do we do that? I don't know.

[JI7]

4. that is something

it's something i have been thinking of , but never put the two together.

i do remember some of the Senate Foreign Relations hearings this year. and i noticed the Dems were best when they would bring up what some of the other Dem members said in making their own point.

[whometense]

3. Read TayTay's post

here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=273&topic_id=48770&mesg_id=48778

It says everything that needs saying. IMHO: don't waste your beautiful mind on people who are only here to whine and deflate. They contribute only bad energy. In my hippie days we would have said they give off a bad vibe. Best to avoid.

It seems to me that the best thing we can do is correct misinformation whenever we see it, but avoid getting sucked into those soul-crushing black holes of argument without end.

I seriously love this group too, and it's because we are all attracted to JK. And the reason we are attracted to JK (well, the most important reason, anyway :evilgrin:) is his unique combination of optimism, pragmatism, and energy. He gives us hope. He is the very polar opposite of all those detractors. Some people do, and some people whine. And the whiners resent the doers for making them feel whiny.

I know it's been said a million times, but it's true. We need to remind each other of the big picture. The big picture is that Kerry got more votes a year ago than any other presidential candidate ever. The media, with some exceptions, don't understand his appeal, and rather than try to understand they mock what they cannot comprehend. That they still go out of their way to either mock or ignore or denigrate him shows his importance.

I see our mission as:

1.) Correct factual errors.
2.) Keep up the spirits of Kerry supporters wherever we encounter them.
3.) Support the man himself however we can.
4.) Be good ambassadors - have a sense of humor and be respectful of other dems. I have an inner bitch who is dying to say catty things about some of today's speakers, but I. WILL. NOT. (it's killing me, though)

[_dynamicdems]

10. Well stated!

It is very easy to get angry when we are confronted with unfair attacks against Senator Kerry, but these people can't be argued into supporting John Kerry. I just returned from reading this thread and threw up my hands.

Then I thought about it. They are reacting emotionally, so no talking points, however well-stated are going to convince them to put aside their bitterness. If anything, the opposite is true. Maybe these folks aren't very well-informed, but they certainly are not going to respond well to having this pointed out to them. If they wanted the facts, they would be asking or researching. They do not want information. What they want is to hold onto their pain and their anger a little longer.

You can't argue with emotion. Logic will only antagonize emotion. It might be an idea to only post tributes in response to attacks. Tell stories about why we love Senator Kerry and why we are loyal to him: personal accounts and personal reasons why he is a hero to us. Instead of arguing logic and responding in kind to their attacks, how about we try humanizing ourselves? Talk about our feelings toward our hero. Let them know (without putting it into words) that they hurt us by attacking Senator Kerry. Turn the other cheek and give them lots of love: love for Kerry, love for all things liberal and Democrat. If nothing else, we will sicken them to death. :D

Seriously, some of these people may be troublemakers, but others may be reacting out of their own hurt. There is enough hurt to go around, for all of us. It is easy to dismiss these people as stupid, but that may not be the case. They might simply have chosen to go with their gut instinct. And right now that instinct is to strike back at whatever reminds them of their disappointment. Pain translates very easily into anger. It is not logical, but when do humans ever behave logically?

[kerrygoddess]

11. Good points

These are all good points.

I see our mission as:

1.) Correct factual errors.
2.) Keep up the spirits of Kerry supporters wherever we encounter them.
3.) Support the man himself however we can.
4.) Be good ambassadors - have a sense of humor and be respectful of other dems. I have an inner bitch who is dying to say catty things about some of today's speakers, but I. WILL. NOT. (it's killing me, though)

We all lose sight sometimes of the bigger picture and it's easy to.

It's hard not to respond to what are often emotional attacks on JK with out using our own emotions.

Someone else pointed out in this threa dthat JK is very active and does so much more than most. I'm sure that is an issue for the detractors. And when he does something particularly newsworthy it does bring them out.

I suggested an email list for conversation outside of the forum incase things come up that we don't feel comfortable talking about here. What ever happened with that?

[Goldeneye]

16. Kind of a side note, but your post reminded me of something...

my fricking poli sci teacher is like a hard core liberal and she was making fun of Kerry. In some interview on MTV they asked him about his hobbies and he responded that he liked snowboarding (among other things). The teacher apparently thought he said it to win the youth vote and that he didn't really snowboard. I've got half a mind to e-mail her Kerry snowboarding pictures. God knows there are plenty.

edit: just read TayTay's post and she really did say it all. Most of the people I talk to politically are on the blogosphere and the blogs just don't like Kerry. Outside of DU, like TayTay said, Kerry is well-liked. It's nice to be reminded of that once in awhile. DU kind of skews my perspective.

[karynnj]

21. Great list

Especially number 4 which is by far the hardest and I didn't succeed yesterday - but at least the catty comment was short and said here.

I like your word "ambassadors". By criticising their favorite, we may feel good, but we probably make them more negative towards the candidate that (whether he likes it or not) we represent. Many people have posted that the Deaniacs probably hurt Dean in Iowa (after they helped him by being the Dean machine that brought him to mainstream notice.) If I can recognise frequent posters as belong to one candidate or another, I'm sure most of us have been permanently identified as Kerrycrats.

Maybe realizing that Kerry was by far the strongest Democrat last year and that the 2004 candidates really aren't his biggest competitors - off DU, few are interested in Clark or Dean. (Edwards is no stronger than he was last year - while Kerry has grown.) Feingold, who is a new face and seems to be testing the waters, is not yet a threat. At this point, the best possibility is that it nay come down to Hillary vs (someone to the left). We will want Kerry to be that person.

OT: I wonder if the goal of the media's incessant stating this week that Kerry is still with Bush on the war and has never renounced his IWR vote - when we know they know this is NOT true- is that they see him as the only likely serious candidate on the left. This may be to help Hillary. (In fact, I would wager Hillary/Edwards might be the media's choice, especially if Edwards can be viewed as a candidate of the left.)

[karynnj]

5. You raise some good points

You are right that there are some people who will never like Kerry - and this is true for every other candidate. Some factors that make it more severe for Kerry may be; he, not their favorite was the candidate and he didn't win, and he is a very strong colorful candidate who has not taken the lower profile some would prefer.

He has been extremely active and involved in everything (he obviously has a huge amount of energy and a great staff.) This means that we are posting things he has done at least every other day, when they often have only one or two things of any note in a given week. Additionally, the Kerry group is bigger and more active than any of the others. I looked at the other groups today - none are like ours. The bottom of Page 1 on most goes back to August in most cases and most threads have less than 10 posts.

Also, maybe because Kerry was the nominee - we have far more backup to our claims. We can and do link to proof of what we are saying. Frankly less is known about any other potential candidate possibly excepting Hillary.

The times I've seen muliple people respond to an anti -Kerry comment are when they are intentionally spreading lies. I think now when the WH and its echo chamber are intentionally misstating Kerry's current position on the war and on the IWR, we need to respond. He gave a speech -labelled major- it received some MSM coverage and he emailed links to it to 5 million people on precisely these two issues. The speech speaks for itself. Some people posting might be innocent - because they heard on MSNBC talking head - so it is important to post the quotes from the speech. So that they and others can see what Kerry really stands for.

Some people though post the same garbage every day. We've given them proof they're wrong - but they are not looking for truth any more than the SBVT were. I answer them for the people reading the thread.

[sandnsea]

6. Are we intimidating them???

Okay, I've been accused of that before. I've got a "strong" personality. Is that the problem? Are they pushing back against what they perceive as a steamroller?? Are we too serious? Is it like the strong women who intimidate men thing?

[whometense]

7. I wonder about that sometimes.

And I do think that a lot of times humor works better. Also, it speaks well for Kerry if his supporters aren't seen as humorless.

[politicasista]

8. What type of humor would work?

I used to use the boring emotion, or the rofl emotion, but my post might get deleted. :shrug:

[karynnj]

20. I loved Tay Tay' use of humor when someone challanged her

that Kerry was not perfect - she posted something about his failing to share his secret on staying forever thin - implying that could have won many many votes. It was perfect and it immediately lightened an obnoxious and stupid thread.

Not all of us can do this - I for one, years ago, realized that I am not good at humor - and if I ever had any illusions - my kids would have dispelled them. But for the obviously ludicrous threads where this is the answer, it may be best (for me) to ignore them, leaving them for others more equipped with humor.

[WildEyedLiberal]

9. I'd be a lot more humorous if they weren't such fuckbags

.. she said with a smile :D

[sandnsea]

12. rotfl

:rofl:

I was thinking that they've sort of sucked the humor out of me, but you're answer is so much better!!

[karynnj]

18. I think we may be intimidating some of them

I don't think it's a strong women thing though in the usual sense. It may be that in real life, many of us may have realized that we had to very forcefully and logically argue issues to be accorded the same respect that was given automatically to men of similar intelligence and experience. On the internet, all that's seen are words - so there may be a clash between our view of ourselves that (hopefully) is consistent with the face we show the world in our real lives and the way we are viewed here. In real lives, I admit that when arguments got heavy, my demeanor and voice (though not words) regressed to that of the nice girl I was in high school - even when I fought this.

This is a factor with age as well - on both sides. On other boards, my children (as teens) have debated with adults. Especially one of them, was in some places where no one knew she was a teen - what mattered was what she said and how she said it. She is very very articulate (far beyond my husband and I) and very well informed on subjects she is most interested in and she has very strong positions (politics is not her main interest). In real life, people see a 5 foot girl with hair to her waist who is very articulate and well spoken. She is more intimidating on the internet. Similarly, people are allowed to be more outspoken with age.

Here - I think our decision to be more fact based - which has to be right - made us more intimidating. The facts walled in their lies and misrepresentations - which is to the good. I really don't think we should stop this. The only change may be as Mass said if the answer is in a Kerry released speech or mailing, the first person answering should post the whole thing, highlighting the most relevant passages. Once someone has done this, we probably shouldn't have 5 or 6 of us parroting the same thing. (Though if they continue it - we could respond to subsequent posts.)

In fairness though it should be said that while we're intimidating, we are usually not rude and not bomb throwers. We are not invading the threads for the other Democrats listing every embarrassment in their lives - although it's telling that even after he was in the spotlight as the nominee - the list of Kerry "mistakes" is shorter than most and his list of wrong doing is laughable. So overall - our supposed intimidation is ONLY in having Kerry's back, not going after others.

[sandnsea]

28. Yes, that's what I meant

I was using the strong woman thing as an analogy, not that anybody was reacting to us specifically because we're strong women. Most people think I'm a man until I correct them anyway.

I agree with the suggestions Mass made too. I remember the primaries when it seemed like every other post was a Dean post, it is annoying as all hell. It probably does seem like Kerry is being foisted on people and many haven't healed from any of this yet. Based on Will's letter yesterday, they want a pound of flesh on the war vote and many "I told you so's". I think I'll have to just ignore all of that.

But for the offline part, I've said before Oregon is DU Live. There aren't any Kerry supporters here that I personally know of. The Oregon Kerry Yahoo group reverted to Dean within 48 hours. During the primaries, the Democrats in my town were mostly Dean, with a couple Kucinich and Clark people. I'm the only Kerry supporter and I don't think anybody was really gung ho Kerry during the election. They wanted him to win and worked very very hard for it, but not alot of real Kerry love. I don't have any reprieve except this little group. Probably colors my perceptions a bit too.

[Mass]

13. A lot of good points in this thread.

Another thing is that, as Kerry is very active, it may be better to post less minor stories (or condense them in one thread).

I know sometimes I feel tired of people posting the same Dean, Clark, ... story for the 10th times or stories of minor interest about him. I am sure that sometimes people get tired when we post stories that are not of interest to them.

I know when there is an event of general interest, I try to post Kerry's answer with somebody else answer (Kennedy for example). The info is given and more people are going to read it in a positive light than when it comes to another pro-Kerry story. Sometimes we can be a little bit overstated with our view of Kerry (by reaction to other people). In yesterday thread, posting the email and the petition would have been enough, and please, post it completely. There is no copyright limits on these types of info.

This said, yesterday thread, with a couple of exceptions, was largely people whose candidate did not do the same thing and that were PO because of that. There is nothing to do with them. Let's just try not to alienate the other ones.

[JI7]

14. i agree with this

this is why i keep certain type of Kerry posts in this forum. it's not really important other than just talking about how much i like him.

i agree about posting the entire emails and whatever else statement he makes. even i don't like to click on the link in most of the threads i open unless i feel like commenting on it where looking at the whole thing would be more fair. but a lot of people are reactionary and would see a few lines and leave it at that. it also gives the regular bashers a chance to claim something that isn't true.they would probably do that anyways, but for those who are fair it's important they see the entire truth.

[fedupinBushcountry]

15. My take on all this

They are trolls. Troll=Distractor. It doesn't matter if they are Dems or not, they do not want the message of someone they don't support to get out. They are beyond reasoning with.

We use to get these type of distractors all the time on the Kerry blog. Anytime Kerry came out ahead of their guy, they would come attacking. After the primaries the distractors were mainly those who who could not get over their guys loss. Now yes we also we has the distractors from the right who were down and dirty all the time, it was easy for us just to zap them, as they get zapped here on DU also.

But for the distractors on our side, we would always answer with facts and if that did not work as hard as it is you just have to ignore, or in other words, don't feed the trolls.

But always make sure you put out the truth backed up with reliable sources (links). You don't have to answer them by replying to their post, just reply to the OP. Distractors love a fight, but lose the battle when the facts out weigh their argument.

I always remember that I was a lurker before I became a regular poster on the Kerry blog and the info I read by those factual posts, far outweighed those by the distractors.

One more thing, this Kerry hate started during the primaries and only got worse as the distractors candidate dropped out. I think what is happening now is that they re-inforced because Kerry loss the election, the I told you so mentality, and all the old rhetoric comes out. Remember a lot of that so called rhetoric came from those on the Dem side during the primaries, they are dividers not uniters. It really made them mad when Kerry united the party, because they were not answering for their candidate but only for their own personal defeat. Their candidates accepted defeat, and not all but some of their supporters did not.

Just my 2 cents.

So I know it is hard , but I always try to feed the lurkers not the distractors.

[Goldeneye]

17. I like your take on this.

I tend to agree with you that they are embittered primary voters. Makes me happey to have missed the primaries all together. I guess that is the ugly side of blogs and the internet. They can go negative just as well as they can go positive. I just hope in the future we can all get behind whoever the candidate is. The primary wars obviously did a lot of damage. I doubt there was this much animosity before the primaries. It's kind of interesting that the election was supposed to bring us together, but a year later we are still fighting about the primaries.

[beachmom]

19. Kerry2008 was interested in putting together an e-mail list

But perhaps Kerry2008 got busy.

As far as these flame threads go, if there were one or two trolls (and this goes for dailykos, too), then the best action would be to ignore them, and continue the conversation as if they never said anything. The problem is that the trolls tend to be the majority a lot of the time. Then we have no choice but to go against the grain and respond with facts, debunking their distortions, and then a beautiful flourish of Kerry love to round it off. But as we discussed in the lefty freeper thread, these people don't want to be convinced. They're right and not only are you wrong, but a fool. I think a conversation with them is next to impossible. But as someone said up thread, we should be feeding the lurkers, not the trolls. I was a lurker myself for a long time, and passionate comments defending JK were worth all the trouble I took to read through the garbage.

[karynnj]

22. Beachmom, this says it all - to quote you both

"I was a lurker myself for a long time, and passionate comments defending JK were worth all the trouble I took to read through the garbage." "we should be feeding the lurkers, not the trolls"

When you started lurking, did you consider you have a strongly postive, somewhat positive, neutral or somewhat negative impression of Kerry? Without naming names necessarilly has your opinion changed with regard to other Democrats?

(Can we learn from your experience? A million apologies, if these questions are inappropriate.)

[beachmom]

31. A Lurker's Perspective

That's an excellent question, Karynnj, and I'm trying to think back. As I said before, I voted for Kerry quite enthusiastically, but with my head. Simply put, I thought he was right on the issues. But I'm sure I did fall partial victim to all the right wing lies (when the SBL hit in Aug. I remember feeling total despair, even wishing that Kerry had just thrown those damn medals over the fence in 1971 and never talked of them again!! It was only after the election was over that I combed the internet checking out the allegations made by the SBL, and realized how unbelievably flimsy their case was. So that was me under the spell of the MSM.)

I started reading a few blogs in Oct. '04 -- just the big ones. And then after Kerry's concession speech, my research on the SBVT lies, and the way he jumped right back into the fight one week after losing, I definitely started looking for more Kerry oriented blogs, and found the Unofficial Kerry blog/Lightupthedarkness and here. I also checked the archives of Kos and the dailyhowler (he had some of the best debunker stuff). For a while Kos wasn't so bad, and there were 2 particular diaries that were very positive about him -- attending the funeral for a fallen soldier and "A Hug from John Kerry". I'm sure you have read those. But then it started getting very negative in January/February and I no longer liked the site. But even in all of that negativity, there would be a ray of sunshine from people who would talk about how much they still loved and admired John Kerry. I think a lot of it were from you guys, but there were others, too. In particular, I just loved the personal stories of people who had actually met him, and how he interacted with them. (Yours recently, Karynnj, was just great). Also, a concise debunking of the bulls**t the whiners would continue to dredge up was good, too. But not getting too hung up with the negativity.

I had read that Boston Globe biography of Kerry in Nov./Dec. '04, and wasn't sure about his character after reading it. Although there were favorable parts in the book, they made it seem like JK was an ambitious, calculating politician, who although did the right thing often, only did it to further his career. He was also depicted as an elitist on his fancy trips to Aspen and his pedigree heritage (except, whoops, his paternal grandparents being Jews from Eastern Europe). I wasn't sure I much liked him after reading that book. But when I started reading the stories of a different JK -- a caring Dad, a loving husband, a guy who was just so obviously floored by the love his supporters showed him, and threw it right back at them -- well, there was a disconnect between the MSM portrayal of him and yours. I have to say, the stories of JK's seemingly endless kindness are what have made me question the MSM premise.

It really goes to the "likeability" factor which we try to say is meaningless, but in fact is a big part of how people decide who to vote for. You may think this is periphery stuff, but to me, you need to know your constituents if you are going to help them, especially if you are living in a different world (upper class) from them. FDR was able to do this, because of his polio and time spent in the poverty stricken Warm Springs, GA. JK was able to be in "our boat", literally and figuratively, in Vietnam where he was the only Yaley (preppie), and he fought alongside working class people and people of color. He's still friends with them now. But what of his time after Vietnam and today? Can he identify with us? I found an article somewhere where a young man asked JK this exact question: "I want to trust you, but how can you understand where we are coming from?" JK answered at the time to look at his votes. He's right, of course, but I want a little more than just votes. And as I read the pages of this forum and other resources on the internet, a consistent record of connecting with his constituents is being made. And it's completely non-phony but real. I think his two years campaigning and meeting people all over the country may have helped, and interestingly, his loss of the election. Lefty Lizzy (being the latest great storyteller) told of college girls telling him his concession speech made them cry, and him offering a hug. He gave them comfort, yet there is no doubt in my mind that in dark moments that JK has, he can tap into that memory of shared loss with us, and know he's not alone.

So as a former lurker, I encourage all of you to, in addition to the very important policy discussions and what JK is doing in the Senate continue to tell stories of his connecting with "us regular folks". With each new story, my trust becomes solidified in Kerry that if he were in the Oval Office, he would always be able to remember us (as in ALL Americans, not just Kerry supporters) when making the very important decisions a president will need to make.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[whometense]

24. FYI ;-)

Just because I advise responding with humor doesn't mean I can manage to do it either. I usually just leave because I go into a rage and can't respond in a dispassionate way.

Just so you know - I don't pretend to be good at it either.

[WildEyedLiberal]

25. Haha - it's so hard with those troglodytes

I just felt like unleashing that rant today. It has been bubbling up inside me for a LONG time now. I try to stop just short of a personal attack, because I do respect the moderators (for the most part) and I do respect DU rules. If one of the assholes goes over the line and personally attacks me, I consider it a victory, tell them so in a curt yet relatively unoffensive manner, and hit alert. I also consider it a victory to provoke them into admitting that they don't actually care about the good Kerry is doing for the country, but instead want him to shut up and go away because he annoys them and gets in the way of their preferred candidate. I saw one of them break down and admit that yesterday, and it was so pathetic yet vindicating, I just had to laugh.

[TayTay]

26. Ahm, I'm not sure I'm good at it either.

It is simply my natural way of responding. (Okay, you grow up with six brothers who are taller than you, bigger than you and somewhat short-tempered and see if you don't develop humor as a way of avoiding a beat-down. Humor is the great disarming element.)

There are a lot of times that DU is too specific. The complaints against Kerry are sometimes just silly and ill-informed. They betray the posters mind-set as a sycophant of someone else or a disrupter in favor of either chaos or another favored pol.

Humor often consists of either stating flat-out something ridiculous (hey, thanks for the thin man reference. I saw the "Is Kerry perfect" line and couldn't resist. It might be funny only because I bet some people paused and said, "Yeah, he should share that secret of thinness. It might get him millions of votes." Then you realize it's absurd.) Ahm humor is situational and can't be taught. (If indeed I am the one to teach it. Sigh! I have posted plenty of stuff that was, ahm, less than funny. DU = tough crowd.)

[WildEyedLiberal]

27. It's not that any of us lack humor

I can tell from the Kerry forum that we all have great senses of humor. It's just that, for me, my typical response to the flamers is "Hey... fuck off." But that's just me being curmudgeonly. :D

I think you're right that a lot of them just like to stir shit up and cause chaos. Those are the ones I suspect of being right-wing trolls. The ones that are genuine lefty freepers trying to marginalize Kerry for their own candidate's benefit are more pathetic, imo, because they OUGHT to be invested in the success of the Democratic Party machine as a whole, and by trying to discredit our party's Presidential nominee and one of its strongest fighters, they actively work against that. I don't care personally for Dean but I will NOT get in the way of his goals for our party, because what he is doing is important and must be done well, regardless of whether I'm a personal fan of his or not. Lefty freeper Kerry haters are incapable of making that distinction (though I have to admit, I am personally biased against anyone who can't see in Kerry at least a part of what we see. It indicates myopia and a closed mind, to me).

[karynnj]

30. I think we gain useful skills in debating them

In the last couple weeks the calls we are making in my county are to try to "sell" the undecided on the assembly candidates or Corzine (2 different groups calling). From earlier calls, these people were on the fence (or in the case of the assembly candidates they hadn't looked into it.) and we know what their key issues are. So, we are calling to give them information on our candidates position on that issue.

I know I would not have been able to easily do this last year - trying to persuade total strangers to choose the Democrat. Now, it's less confrontational than posting in GD-P and it's kind of fun. (even when I had to tell one person there wasn't a candidate in the county who would back his positions - just because he wanted a candidate who would exclude immigrants, legal and illegal, for 10 years "to see what we've got here" and that we needed to let the state legalize torture.)

[sandnsea]

29. It's my personality, sorry

When I'm not flying off the handle, I'm trying to analyze people or situations to try to keep from flying off the handle. It's just me.

From a purely objective place, it is absolutely fascinating to watch. It is behavior that I cannot wrap my head around. I said alot of stuff about Dean during the primary that I knew was a real stretch, but it's politics and that's what you do. Primaries were over, I quit saying it. It's fascinating to me when people believe their own spin. Also, there has been some totally irrational hatred of Kerry all along, it is in people's bones. People throw out all facts and sense of reality in order to hate him. What's more fascinating is that it happens in the black community too, as politicasista has attested to. It's like Bush love, only in the reverse. A social phonemena that has swept the country. What the hell is it? Where does it come from? What is it about this man that is generating this response? What does it say about social underpinnings, those unknowns that move a population to care or not care? All of that. It's just a real puzzlement to me.